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Speaker 1: Line from ball Hartbeyer and the Crossroads of America. It's

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Speaker 1: Tony Katz today.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's very, very possible that no one even

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Speaker 2: understands what a subsidy is. All this talk and all

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Speaker 2: this fight and a government shutdown over Obamacare subsidies, do

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Speaker 2: we actually know what it means? Are we talking about

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Speaker 2: actual cash? Are we talking about a tax credit? What's

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Speaker 2: the difference here? Does it actually make Obamacare work? Or

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Speaker 2: is the fundamental problem that Obamacare doesn't work? And all

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Speaker 2: we're doing is kicking a problem down the road. And

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Speaker 2: what is the problem? Is the problem that we don't

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Speaker 2: treat healthcare like we do other places in the market.

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Speaker 2: Or is the problem that we don't recognize that healthcare

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Speaker 2: is special in and of it to itself, in and

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Speaker 2: of itself into itself.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how you would say the words.

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Speaker 1: You think I'd be better at talking being.

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Speaker 2: On radio and all Tony kats Tony Katz today, good

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Speaker 2: to be with you. Let me bring in Ovik roy

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Speaker 2: Ovic Roy is the man behind freeop. This is the

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Speaker 2: Foundation for Research and Equal Opportunity. He serves as the

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Speaker 2: chairman there and president. His background his history is not

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Speaker 2: only as a scientist. It's training at MIT. But then

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Speaker 2: as Obamacare came to be, and that's where I met

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Speaker 2: Ovic all.

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Speaker 1: These years ago.

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Speaker 2: Is really about healthcare policy, about what it is in

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Speaker 2: the very very detailed, granual level, granular level that we're

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Speaker 2: dealing with here.

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Speaker 1: So of it.

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Speaker 2: Good to see you man, always a pleasure to have

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Speaker 2: a chance to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with I guess a baseline.

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Speaker 2: When the Democrats are screaming about subsidies for Obamacare, what

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Speaker 2: is it that they're actually talking about.

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Speaker 3: They're talking about an extra bonus enhanced set of subsidies

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Speaker 3: that they passed during COVID. Initially it was supposed to

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Speaker 3: be a two year emergency measure, then I got extended

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Speaker 3: for another two years. And because of that extra two

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Speaker 3: year extension, it's set to expire at the end of

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, and they wanted to extend further, as

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Speaker 3: they always do. Right, And there's what is it that

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Speaker 3: Reagan said the quickest way to everlasting life is to

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Speaker 3: be a government bureau.

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Speaker 2: So right, so we talk about how they want this

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Speaker 2: these dollars to extend. You know, as Reagan also said,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm from the government, I'm here to help

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Speaker 2: the most dangerous words in the English language. This is

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Speaker 2: weird to people, these subsidies because Obamacare was supposed to

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Speaker 2: be it is the Affordable Care Act, It's the ACA.

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Speaker 2: It's supposed to be much more affordable. It's supposed to

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Speaker 2: make it easier for people to get healthcare. And clearly

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Speaker 2: that didn't work. So was this a lie from the

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Speaker 2: beginning or was this one of those things that the

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Speaker 2: pathway to Hell's paid with good intentions?

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Speaker 1: Can I say both? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Because the lie was that Obamacare did make the underlying

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Speaker 3: cost of buying health insurance on your own much more expensive. So,

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Speaker 3: just to rewind a little bit, we subsidize healthcare health

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Speaker 3: insurance for almost everybody in America. If you're over sixty five,

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Speaker 3: you get subsidized health insurance through Medicare. If you're super

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Speaker 3: poor or disabled, you get subsidized health insurance through Medicaid.

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Speaker 3: If you get insurance through your job. There's a massive

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Speaker 3: tax subsidy for employer sponsored health insurance, where literally like

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Speaker 3: if that if your employer gives you one hundred bucks

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Speaker 3: in wages, you pay income taxes on it, You pay

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Speaker 3: Social Security, Medicare taxes on it. Stay and local income

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Speaker 3: tax on it. But if that same employer gives you

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Speaker 3: a hundred bucks in health insurance, you pay no taxes

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Speaker 3: on it. So there's a tax subsidy for employer based insurance.

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Speaker 3: So there was a gap in the market pre Obamacare

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Speaker 3: where if you didn't get health insurance through your employer,

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Speaker 3: you weren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, and you

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Speaker 3: weren't old enough to qualify for Medicare, you were like

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Speaker 3: the only group lef left basically working people who are

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Speaker 3: like freelancers or other types of people who didn't get

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Speaker 3: insurances through their employer, who didn't have a subsidy for

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Speaker 3: health insurance. So both Republicans and Democrats in different ways

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Speaker 3: have proposed evening out that discrepancy and saying, let's balance

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Speaker 3: out the help we give to the working poor in

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Speaker 3: the middle class versus what we give to hire and

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Speaker 3: come people through employers sponsored insurance, what we give to

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Speaker 3: the elderly, what we give to the poor. So that

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Speaker 3: part is okay. The part that Obamacare really screwed up

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Speaker 3: is it heavily regulated the kind of insurance you could

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Speaker 3: offer to people who didn't get it through their employer,

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Speaker 3: and that individually purchased or non group health insurance is

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Speaker 3: what Obamacare is made super expensive and what made the

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Speaker 3: subsidies much more necessary. Because if you're going to triple

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Speaker 3: or quadruple the premiums that people have to pay, then

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Speaker 3: a lot of people aren't.

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Speaker 1: Going to be able to afford it.

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Speaker 2: So we can say that Obamacare did not make health

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Speaker 2: care cheaper.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it definitely didn't make healthcare cheaper.

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Speaker 1: Now, the way.

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Speaker 3: Supporters of Obamacare describe it is they made it affordable

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Speaker 3: by subsidizing it. Right, So if if you're if your premium,

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Speaker 3: your monthly premium went from two hundred bucks a month

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Speaker 3: to one thousand bucks a month, but the government is

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Speaker 3: covering the difference or more than you know, even more

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Speaker 3: of the difference, so that your net premium, net of

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Speaker 3: the taxpayer subsidies is one hundred and fifty dollars a

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Speaker 3: month instead of two hundred. Maybe for you, you know,

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Speaker 3: your health insurance is quote unquote a little bit more affordable.

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Speaker 3: Maybe maybe not because deductibles and copays of also skyrocket

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Speaker 3: under Obamacare. But all this to say that actually, if

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Speaker 3: you look at the underlying premium, the underlying cost or

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Speaker 3: the insurance it's exploded in cost. And that's why Democrats

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Speaker 3: want to perpetuate these enhanced subsidies because people like me

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Speaker 3: fifteen years ago, as you know, Tony, because we talked

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Speaker 3: about it on your show fifteen years ago. You know,

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Speaker 3: we were saying, look, this is going to drive up

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Speaker 3: the underlying cost of insurance, and these subsidies at Obamacare

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Speaker 3: has appropriated for that purpose aren't going to be enough

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Speaker 3: to cover the higher underlying cost. And sure enough, here

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Speaker 3: we are, you know, fifteen years later, and the Democrats

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Speaker 3: are saying, let's paper over the fact that Obamacare is

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Speaker 3: too expensive and effectively, let's bail it out by adding on.

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Speaker 1: These additional subsidies.

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Speaker 3: And so the thing that I've proposed a lot of Republicans,

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Speaker 3: a lot of conservatives saying they're seeing what I've just

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Speaker 3: described to you, and they're saying, screw that, let's just

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Speaker 3: end the subsidies. Why should we perpetuate these subsidies to

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Speaker 3: bail out a program that we set all along was

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Speaker 3: going to be unaffordable. Okay, So that's the baseline Republican

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Speaker 3: or conservative point of view, which I sympathize with. But

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Speaker 3: I'm arguing for a somewhat different strategy. What I'm arguing

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Speaker 3: is that the only way to deregulate Obamacare, or to

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Speaker 3: reform the regulations in Obamacare that have made the health

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Speaker 3: insurance on Obamacare is you have to pass a law

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Speaker 3: that can get sixty votes in the Senate. You have

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Speaker 3: to be able to overcome a filibuster to deregulate obombacare.

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Speaker 3: As we learned in twenty seventeen, when Republicans try to

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Speaker 3: repeal and replace Obamacare, they could only defund it using

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Speaker 3: the reconciliation process, but they couldn't deregulate it. The regulations

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Speaker 3: under current Senate rules require you to get sixty votes

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Speaker 3: in the Senate, not fifty. And so what I'm proposing

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Speaker 3: is give the Democrats a short term extension that phases

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Speaker 3: out the subsidies in one or two years in exchange

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Speaker 3: for permanent deregulation of the exchanges, so the underlying premiums

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Speaker 3: can go back down, because if we just let the

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Speaker 3: subsidies expire, we haven't really solved the problem. The underlying

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Speaker 3: costing insurance is still expensive because the regulations are still

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Speaker 3: in place. So the problem we really need to solve

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Speaker 3: if we want health insurance to be affordable for people

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Speaker 3: is how to deregulate Obamacare, and for that we're going

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Speaker 3: to need some Democratic votes.

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Speaker 2: Talking to O Croy of a free up froopp dot org,

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Speaker 2: the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity, where he is

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Speaker 2: the founder, a co founder, and a chairman, this brings

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Speaker 2: us to this idea of can you make healthcare affordable?

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Speaker 2: I have made a rudimentary argument that it seems odd

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Speaker 2: to me and unnecessary.

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Speaker 1: To me, and maybe I could go so far say dangerous.

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Speaker 2: To me, that we treat healthcare differently than we treat

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Speaker 2: the mechanic.

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Speaker 1: We treat our doctor different than the mechanic.

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Speaker 2: We have a problem with our breaks, we go to

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Speaker 2: the mechanic, we pay for new breaks, we get new breaks.

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Speaker 1: We have a problem with our hip. We go to

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Speaker 1: the doctor.

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Speaker 2: And the next thing you know, there's twenty seven levels

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Speaker 2: in between me and the doctor, where if I don't

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Speaker 2: have insurance, the tilin all costs me ninety two thousand dollars, and.

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Speaker 1: If I have insurance it costs me seventeen cents.

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Speaker 2: There's a fundamental issue here in how we address this

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Speaker 2: as a marketplace to begin with. So this is where

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Speaker 2: I find myself constantly saying we're doing this wrong.

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Speaker 1: So let me start with.

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Speaker 2: A basic question to you, do we have the capacity

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Speaker 2: in the United States to make health care affordable?

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Speaker 3: Boy, there's a lot of different ways to answer that question.

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Speaker 3: I'll put it this way.

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Speaker 1: I got nothing but time and go for them all.

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Speaker 3: If you were to put me in front of a

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Speaker 3: blackboard and say, how would you redesign the healthcare system

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Speaker 3: in America so that it were affordable, competitive, innovative, and

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Speaker 3: it had a lot of choice, and you know, didn't

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Speaker 3: cost the government nearly as much as it did now,

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Speaker 3: I could design that system. In fact, at Free Up,

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Speaker 3: we've put forward a plan that's been introduced in Congress

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Speaker 3: as the Fair Care Act, sponsored in both the House

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Speaker 3: and the Senate.

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Speaker 1: In fact, two members of.

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Speaker 3: The Indiana congressional delegation have been heavily involved in a

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Speaker 3: Jim Banks back when he was a House member, and

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Speaker 3: then your current governor Mike Brawn, who's obvious now who's

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Speaker 3: the governor, but was a Senator until reasons he was

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Speaker 3: in he was the one who introduced it in the Senate.

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Speaker 3: And Jim Banks when he was in the House, he

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Speaker 3: introduced it there. So we've put forward a plan and

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Speaker 3: you can talk to them about it next time you

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Speaker 3: have them on That would actually solve this problem. That

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Speaker 3: would in a very politically gradual way, because you can't

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Speaker 3: disrupt health insurance and healthcare for people, migrate us more

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Speaker 3: into a system that's fiscally sustainable, that actually cuts taxes,

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Speaker 3: reduced to spending by trillions of dollars over a multi

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Speaker 3: decade period, solves the entitlement problem, and actually preserves the

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Speaker 3: things about the healthcare system that we actually like, the

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Speaker 3: innovation and the choice where we have it. So it's

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Speaker 3: possible to do. The challenge is that particularly Republicans our

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Speaker 3: risk averse when it comes to healthcare. Their experience in

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen scarred them. Most Republicans in Congress believe they

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Speaker 3: lost their majorities in Congress because of this repeal and

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Speaker 3: replaced battle in seventeen, and so a lot of them

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Speaker 3: just don't want to touch they don't want to be

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Speaker 3: bothered by healthcare, they don't want to think about it.

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Speaker 2: And the problem with that is later and two terms

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Speaker 2: of Trump, and you're saying that that's still the scarf

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Speaker 2: when they fell off their tricycle at the age of four,

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Speaker 2: is still haunting them.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, yes, and the challenges. Healthcare gets more and more

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Speaker 3: expensive every year because we aren't fixing it. And not

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Speaker 3: only that, healthcare spending is the biggest driver of the

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Speaker 3: federal deficit, and so every year the deficit and the

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Speaker 3: debt get bigger because we haven't fixed healthcare. So these

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Speaker 3: problems are coming to a head. The Medicare Trust Fund

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Speaker 3: is going broken, I believe twenty thirty three or twenty

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Speaker 3: thirty two, which isn't that far far away. That's seven

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Speaker 3: years away. And you know, Paul Ryan tried to fix

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Speaker 3: all this stuff in twenty twelve. He proposed that big

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Speaker 3: plan that if we had passed then would have made

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Speaker 3: a big difference. But here we are now it's twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five, and we're rapidly approaching that fiscal cliff and

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Speaker 3: it's going to be pretty scary.

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Speaker 2: And we do talking to Ovik Roy of freeop fr

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Speaker 2: eo PP freeop dot org. This is the Foundation for

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Speaker 2: Research on Equal Opportunity where he is the co founder

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Speaker 2: and chairman. And rarely do you hear people singing the

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Speaker 2: praises these days of Paul Ryan.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you got to take that hit where you

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Speaker 1: gotta take that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's an unfashionable name to drop, but I think

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Speaker 3: people are going to regret not listening to him about

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Speaker 3: Medicare reform in particular.

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Speaker 1: It is in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 2: But as if you could argue that the Democrats had

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Speaker 2: any success in this shutdown, which I think there's very

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Speaker 2: little they could point to, it's that people are now

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Speaker 2: asking this question about subsidies, and that can easily be

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Speaker 2: a backfire to them, where people could say, well, we

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Speaker 2: don't want Obamacare at all, and we're sick and tired

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Speaker 2: of paying for people who aren't paying for their own insurance.

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Speaker 2: You're making a secondary argument. You're saying, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 2: we need to deal with an underline issue that Obamacare

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Speaker 2: is not just the money issue that Obamacare is, and

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Speaker 2: that's where you talk about engaging a deregulation.

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Speaker 1: But I think the thing that always comes back is, well,

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Speaker 1: what is your plan?

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Speaker 2: You talked about what you had with now Senator Jim

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Speaker 2: Banks and now Governor Mike Brown, who were a congressman

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Speaker 2: a center respectively, when you were pushing this forward. Does

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Speaker 2: it lead to government being involved in healthcare? Is the

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Speaker 2: only way to have healthcare? Good healthcare, worthy healthcare, valuable healthcare,

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Speaker 2: affordable healthcare. Is government involvement or can the market handle this?

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Speaker 3: The market can handle it. In fact, the market you

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Speaker 3: can handle a lot more than it does.

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Speaker 1: There are a.

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Speaker 3: Couple things that you have to account for if you

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Speaker 3: want to have a system that is maximally light on

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Speaker 3: government and heavy on the private sector competing for your business.

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Speaker 3: And the first thing is that there's a tendency towards

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Speaker 3: reach monopolies in healthcare. So in a lot of parts

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Speaker 3: of the country, and in Indianapolis, you're fortunate, this isn't

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Speaker 3: as much of a problem in Indianapolis, but in a

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Speaker 3: lot of regions of the country, there's one hospital system

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Speaker 3: that basically owns the state or owns the metropolitan region.

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Speaker 3: So there's no competition if you, you know, if you

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Speaker 3: tear your knee or you have a stroke and you

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Speaker 3: need to go to the hospital, there's no one to

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Speaker 3: bargain with because there's one regional monopoly that basically owns

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Speaker 3: the entire state, and so they can charge whatever they

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Speaker 3: want in a quote unquote not in really a market system,

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Speaker 3: but in a private system. It's no different than a

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Speaker 3: government monopoly. It's just a private monopoly, right, So that's

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Speaker 3: not great. And the other thing is you do have legitimately,

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Speaker 3: you know, people who are too poor to for health insurance,

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Speaker 3: or people who because of a health condition, let's say

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Speaker 3: somebody has a genetic disease or they're disabled or something

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Speaker 3: like that, where the cost of caring for them is

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Speaker 3: way greater than what they can afford. You're going to

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Speaker 3: you need some sort of way of helping those people

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Speaker 3: who otherwise can't help themselves. But having said that, you

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Speaker 3: can look around the world and there are plenty of

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Speaker 3: countries that do it way better than us. One I

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Speaker 3: like to talk about a lot that we talk about

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Speaker 3: it freeop is Switzerland. Switzerland has universal health insurance. It's

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Speaker 3: all private, there's no government health insurance.

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Speaker 1: People.

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Speaker 3: All the insurance compete for your business. They subsidize it

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Speaker 3: for people at the bottom end of the spectrum economically,

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Speaker 3: but everyone else has to shop for their own health

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Speaker 3: insurance and it works really, really well. They have access

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Speaker 3: to any doctor they want.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the.

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Speaker 3: Pharmaceutical and bidtech companies are headquartered there because it's such

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Speaker 3: an innovative ecosystem. They have low taxes. That works pretty well,

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Speaker 3: and I think we have a lot to learn from Switzerland.

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Speaker 3: If you want to look at a system that could

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Speaker 3: be a model for American healthcare.

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Speaker 2: Reform, Ovic Groy freeop frooppfreeop dot org go check them

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Speaker 2: out for yourself. I appreciate Ovic taking the time to

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Speaker 2: be with us much more to get to I'm Tony

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Speaker 2: Katz and this is Tony Katz today. I think we're

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Speaker 2: all clear by now that Gavin Newsom is running for

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Speaker 2: president of the United States. Tony Katz, Tony Katz Today.

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Speaker 2: Great to be with you. Oh, he's into the trolling online.

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Speaker 2: He thinks he's Trump. And the key to a guy

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Speaker 2: like him running for president is that he has no

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Speaker 2: shame all the disaster that California is and he is like, what,

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Speaker 2: of course I'm running Trump bad. It's just it's as

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Speaker 2: if somehow the horror show doesn't exist. The insane spending,

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Speaker 2: the deference to legal immigrants, the letting California burn, and

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Speaker 2: then of course not letting California rebuild.

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Speaker 1: So there he is. He is at a.

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Speaker 2: Talk in Brazil, and as the story goes, it was

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Speaker 2: a private plane that he took to the nation of

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Speaker 2: Brazil and he's talking about what climate change home.

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Speaker 1: Value will start to decline. You're seeing it across the

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Speaker 1: spectrum right now.

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Speaker 4: In my state included, which is one of the most

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Speaker 4: blessed and cursed states as it relates to climate, we're

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Speaker 4: on the tip of the sphere of climate change, simultaneous

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Speaker 4: droughts and simultaneous floods.

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Speaker 5: The hots are getting a lot hotter, the dryes dryer.

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Speaker 5: You saw one of the most devastating wildfires in American

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Speaker 5: history in the middle of winter in Los Angeles in January.

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Speaker 5: One hundred mile hour winds attached to fire. And as

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Speaker 5: we rebuild, the number one concerned people have how do

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Speaker 5: I get my home insured? And how do you get

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Speaker 5: a developer to develop a home that can't get a

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Speaker 5: mortgage which.

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Speaker 1: Requires home insurance. So from across the spectrum, from financial.

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Speaker 5: Risk to the issue cost of living, which is universal

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Speaker 5: to global competitiveness.

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Speaker 6: This is a no brainer.

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Speaker 1: He I have a plane to tell people.

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Speaker 2: The climate change are the reasons he couldn't put out

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Speaker 2: fires in the Palisades. Climate change is the reason that

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Speaker 2: reservoirs weren't fully stocked. Climate change is the reason that

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Speaker 2: they engaged a reduction in services and a reduction in

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Speaker 2: budgeting climate change is the reason that California, Southern California specifically,

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Speaker 2: has never had good management of the land. And anybody

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Speaker 2: who lived there, including me, understood as you drive mul

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Speaker 2: Hollands that if somebody were to light a match, this

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Speaker 2: all goes up in flames and everybody dies. Everybody and

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Speaker 2: name this canyon and name that canyon would all be dead.

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Speaker 2: Everybody knows it, and everybody just keeps on keeping on.

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Speaker 1: He took a.

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Speaker 2: Private plane to lecture to us about climate change. And

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Speaker 2: of course, now it's climate change, because it's responsible for everything.

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Speaker 2: If it floods, climate change, if it's drylimate change, if

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Speaker 2: it is climate change.

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Speaker 1: It's why they changed.

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Speaker 2: It from global warming to climate change, because global warming

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Speaker 2: didn't cover enough of their ideological insanity. There are fires.

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Speaker 2: When I lived in California, there were fires. There were

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Speaker 2: also earthquakes. It happens. But if you want to talk

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Speaker 2: about not being prepared to handle a fire.

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Speaker 1: Well then now we're having a conversation.

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Speaker 2: But if you're going to take private jets as is

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Speaker 2: reported to talk about climate change, well I'm sorry, we're

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Speaker 2: done here. The man has no shame and he's still

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Speaker 2: running for president. You can count on it. I'm Tony Katz.

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Speaker 2: This is Tony Kats today.

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Speaker 6: A few moments ago, I placed a wreath at the

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Speaker 6: tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and as I stepped back

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Speaker 6: and stood during the moment of silence that followed, I

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Speaker 6: showed a small prayer. And it occurred to me that

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Speaker 6: each of my predecessors has had a similar moment, and

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Speaker 6: I wondered if our prayers weren't very much the same,

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Speaker 6: if not identical. We celebrate Veterans Day on the anniversary

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Speaker 6: of the armistice that ended World War One, the armistice

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Speaker 6: that began on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day

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Speaker 6: of the eleventh month.

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Speaker 2: And that's why Veterans Day is November eleventh. Tony Katz,

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Speaker 2: Tony Kats today, Good to be with you. This is

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Speaker 2: President Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighty five on Veterans Day.

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Speaker 1: Originally, of course, called Armistice Day.

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Speaker 2: It was changed to Veterans Day by Eisenhower in nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty four. Armistice Day the end of World War One,

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Speaker 2: which happened on the eleventh hour the eleventh day of

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Speaker 2: the eleventh month. Veterans Day is about those who have

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Speaker 2: worn the uniform. Memorial Day is about those who have died.

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Speaker 1: In service of their country.

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Speaker 2: It's a distinction with a difference, and it's worthy of

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Speaker 2: noting and ensuring that you have this conversation. Very often,

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Speaker 2: these kinds of holidays come and go, and in today's world,

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Speaker 2: they are not given fanfare, they're not given focus.

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Speaker 1: And they get ignored. These things shouldn't be ignored.

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Speaker 2: Memory and history and culture and what it took and

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Speaker 2: what it takes to have a free nation.

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Speaker 1: They matter.

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Speaker 2: What are the weirdest and strangest things about what we're

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Speaker 2: seeing about some people on the right, and certainly seeing

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Speaker 2: about the left, is that they don't think that somehow

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Speaker 2: a fight is going to happen. Oh, you don't need

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Speaker 2: to fight, Oh you don't need war. Oh we have

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Speaker 2: to stop being such warmongers. I argue against the idea

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Speaker 2: that we're warmongers. I do think it is okay to

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Speaker 2: say we don't have to be in every battle, we

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Speaker 2: don't have to participate in every place, we don't have

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Speaker 2: to engage everywhere.

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Speaker 1: That much I'll agree with.

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Speaker 2: But what I find from what I'm seeing is that

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Speaker 2: we shouldn't engage anywhere, and anybody who engage as well.

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Speaker 2: They're just violent and they're the enemy, or they're genocidal

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Speaker 2: and a bunch of garbage.

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Speaker 1: America exists because we killed the enemy.

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Speaker 2: That's all there is to it. I'm not here to

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Speaker 2: rewrite history. I'm here to make sure I fully understand it.

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Speaker 2: The history of the world involves this thing right here.

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Speaker 2: And someone fullheartily will say, well, maybe we shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: having these wars, Maybe we shouldn't be having these conflicts,

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Speaker 2: we shouldn't be having these fights.

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Speaker 1: What have we just stopped?

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Speaker 2: The human condition is not stopping for anyone or anything.

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Speaker 2: It's not stopping for weak minds or small minds.

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Speaker 1: Or not weak nor small.

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Speaker 2: But mine's engaged in a fantasy and a belief that

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Speaker 2: somehow human nature can be changed, And I put forth

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Speaker 2: to you it cannot, and therefore we can only do

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Speaker 2: what we can to create guidelines to create a better,

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Speaker 2: more civil society while being ready.

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Speaker 1: In no way would I ever want.

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Speaker 2: A society where people settle their differences by shooting each

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Speaker 2: other in the streets. I'm glad we've gotten rid of

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Speaker 2: the duel, but there is no way for societies to

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Speaker 2: settle their beefs. If one society believes the other society

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Speaker 2: should be conquered or destroyed. Why do I believe in

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Speaker 2: free markets and trade because nations that make money off

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Speaker 2: each other rarely go about shooting each other. I'm a

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Speaker 2: Milton Friedman on this. I think that's valuable. But from

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Speaker 2: the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli, tell

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Speaker 2: a story about who.

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Speaker 1: The enemy is and why they are indeed the enemy.

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Speaker 2: And if anybody thinks for a second that you're not

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Speaker 2: going to have to fix your bayonet at the end

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Speaker 2: of the rifle, at the end of the day, at

441
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: the final moment, I'm sorry, that's just not a rational thought. Now,

442
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 2: maybe it won't come to that, and maybe I should

443
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: say it differently. One has to be prepared to do it,

444
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 2: and one needs a fighting force that is trained to

445
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: do it. And you hope through the other channels in

446
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 2: the other ways that moment never comes. But until the

447
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: human existence changes, which it never will, until there are

448
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: no more humans, you better be prepared.

449
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: And this is my conversation about Veterans Day. This is

450
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: what I think is.

451
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: So incredibly important about those people who have served.

452
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 1: They may never have been in a combat role, they

453
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: were still prepared. You got to respect that. And I

454
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: appreciated Ronald Reagan's remarks from nineteen eighty five.

455
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 6: And I wonder, in fact, if all America's prayers aren't

456
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 6: the same as though I mentioned a moment ago, the

457
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 6: timing of this holiday is quite deliberate in terms of

458
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 6: historical fact. But somehow it always seems quite fitting to

459
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 6: me that this day comes deep in autumn, when the

460
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 6: colors are muted and the days seem to invite contemplation.

461
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 6: We are gathered at the National Cemetery, which provides a

462
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 6: final resting place for the heroes who have defended our

463
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 6: country since the Civil War. This amphitheater, this place for speeches,

464
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 6: is more central to the Cemetery than at first might

465
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 6: seem apparent. For all we can ever do for our

466
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 6: heroes is remember them and remember what they did, and

467
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 6: memories are transmitted through words. Sometime back I received, in

468
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 6: the name of our country the bodies of four Marines

469
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 6: who had died while on active duty. I said then

470
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 6: that there is a special sadness that a companies that

471
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 6: of a serviceman, for we're never quite good enough to them.

472
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 6: Not really, we can't be, because what they gave us

473
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 6: is beyond our powers to repay. And so when a

474
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 6: service man dies, it's a tear in the fabric, a

475
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 6: break in the hole, and all we can do is remember.

476
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 6: It is in a way an odd thing to honor

477
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 6: those who died in defense of our country, in defense

478
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 6: of us in wars far away. The imagination plays a trick.

479
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 6: We see these soldiers in our mind as old and wise.

480
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 6: We see them as something like the founding Fathers, grave

481
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 6: and gray haired. But most of them were boys when

482
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 6: they died, and they gave up two lives, the one

483
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 6: they were living and the one they would have lived.

484
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 2: I never think we should be engaged in any process

485
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: of warfare, willy nilly, never have, never, ever have. That's

486
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: different than whether or not we should be a nation

487
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: that is prepared and when we go to fight, we

488
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 2: obliterate the enemy. But the poetry in Reagan right there,

489
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: regarding those who served and the two lives.

490
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: This is just.

491
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: He was a cut above in this regard. I'm not

492
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 2: engaged in a conversation that was he perfect.

493
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: There is no perfect.

494
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 2: I'm saying that when it came to being able to

495
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 2: deliver a speech, deliver a thought, deliver a moment of poetry.

496
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: He was in every way above and beyond.

497
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: It is I think truly important this Veteran's Day that

498
00:27:55,080 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: before the day is out, just thirty seconds with your kids. Hey,

499
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: it's Veterans Day and a lot of people have put

500
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: on the uniform to serve their country. Now you can

501
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 2: serve your country in a lot of ways. You don't

502
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: necessarily have to wear a uniform, but if that's something

503
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 2: you want to do, I want to talk to you

504
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: about it. But we should be thankful for those people

505
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: who are willing to give up their lives if necessary,

506
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: in the defense of a nation, because sometimes you actually

507
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: have to defend the nation, like sometimes you have to

508
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 2: defend yourself.

509
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: So you should never let a Veteran's Day just go

510
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: by the wayside.

511
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: Just take a moment and be thankful, and if you

512
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: see somebody wearing the uniform, say thank you and maybe

513
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: they'll appreciate it.

514
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: Maybe they'll just give you away of whatever it is, but.

515
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: You'll know you remembered it. And make sure you tell

516
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: your kids this as well. Thirty seconds boom. That's all

517
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: you got to do, and not everything requires these major

518
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: sit downs in deep, deep contemplations, although you may do

519
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: it that way.

520
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: I'm not here to object, but rather.

521
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: Just to let them know that, you know, just to

522
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: let them notice that you noticed and you marked the calendar.

523
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: I don't claim parenting advice.

524
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: That you know that I should be a guy giving

525
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: parenting advice. I sometimes find the whole concept weird. I

526
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 2: think I have pretty great kids. I'm pretty happy. The

527
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: one thing I will tell you is that and people

528
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: who have told you this before, if you're a young

529
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: parent or older parent, maybe you've said this, it's not

530
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: Kids don't so much listen to what you say. They

531
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: watch what you do. I think that is so outrageously

532
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: true and has proven itself to be true time and

533
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: time again. But the part that I think is missed

534
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: in that is that they do see how you bring

535
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: something up. They see how you engage something. And it's

536
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: not always the big talk that's old. This is serious,

537
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: that's sometimes seen is overblown. When you just give it

538
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: something in passing, it's amazing what sticks, It's amazing how

539
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: it connects. And I don't know if you need, you know,

540
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 2: an hour for it. Maybe maybe that's what you want.

541
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: I'm not here to tell you no but thirty seconds

542
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: of hey, this was on my mind, I wanted to

543
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: share this with you, Okay, what are.

544
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: We having for dinner?

545
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: And then let them come back to you and ask

546
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: a question about it. And now it's casualness as opposed

547
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: to lecture, and I just I just always felt that

548
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: that worked better now. I will also say, in a

549
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: very large level of full disclosure, I talk for a living,

550
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: and I think I'm terrible talking to my kids.

551
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: I think I think I'm They tell me I'm crazy.

552
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: They tell me I am ridiculous and surreal and foolhardy

553
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: and could you just shut up already? That and all

554
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: the rest I do. I think I think I'm awful.

555
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: I think I'm awful at it.

556
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: But the way I've kind of gotten around that is

557
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: through some of this learning, learning this, and I and

558
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: I've and I've been amazed by the results. So maybe

559
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: my experience is you know, anecdotal, indifferent. But I don't

560
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: think there's ever a moment. It's just like September eleventh.

561
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: I don't know if you have to have a big

562
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: five hour.

563
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: Sit down about it, but you do need to mention it.

564
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: And I think you'd be remiss if you went through

565
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: Veterans Day and didn't notice.

566
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: It's imperative, it's important. Do that.

567
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: Do not let this veteran's day go by the wayside, Do.

568
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: Not let it escape your mind.

569
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: Give it thirty seconds for your kids, for your family,

570
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: these veterans, this story, this importance should not be forgotten,

571
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: not now, not ever, and sure as hell not by us.

572
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm Tony Katz, So, Senator.

573
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 7: You came in as somewhat an outsider, and by the way,

574
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 7: I was wrong, totally wrong about you. I thought you

575
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 7: were going to be a radical, and you've been totally

576
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 7: different than that. Who is running the show now in

577
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 7: the Democratic Party, in the Senate, in the House.

578
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 8: I no one, No one really knows. And I think

579
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 8: my values are reflected in my vote and the things

580
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 8: that I support here, and if that might put me

581
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 8: at odds with with parts of my party, I'm okay

582
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 8: with that. I mean, we need to be a big,

583
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 8: a big party, a big tent party. So for me,

584
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 8: it's like these are pretty reasonable. I mean, you know,

585
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 8: my party has always been opposing shutting our government down.

586
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 8: I'm not sure why it's controversial now to devote these things.

587
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 8: And I refuse to put all these people in the

588
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 8: middle of this political kinds of brinkmanship.

589
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: That's Senator John Fetterman.

590
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's it's weird to witness that he seems

591
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: so focused and so normal, but he does. Tony Katz,

592
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: Tony Katz today, good to be with you. To be clear,

593
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 2: he doesn't make me want to become a Democrat. And

594
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: to be clear, he's never going to be a conservative.

595
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: He believes in some things and has some philosophies that

596
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,239
Speaker 2: simply I do not connect with. I have absolutely no

597
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: interest in at all. But I would say, like click,

598
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: you would say, if we can just agree on some basics,

599
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 2: that would be kind of awesome, that would be terrific,

600
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: that would be wonderful. And certainly we can agree that

601
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: the shutdown was nothing more than Shenanigan's nothing, nothing more

602
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: than nonsense, nothing more than foolishness.

603
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: None of this was necessary, none of it. And yet

604
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: Democrats still want.

605
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: To go and think we had this in the bag,

606
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: we had victory, this was gonna be a great win

607
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: for us, and what did we do.

608
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: We messed it all up.

609
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 9: Equate him to Pete carrolln Bill Belichick, you guys that

610
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,959
Speaker 9: have won super Bowl, and they were really good ten

611
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 9: years ago. And I think this is a case where

612
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 9: he's a bit out of touch. Look, a better leader

613
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 9: could sell this deal. This is not capitulation. This is

614
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 9: a pause. You could make easily make the case. We're

615
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 9: not going to let him take snap benefits away, and

616
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 9: we're not going to let Sean Duffy you screw up

617
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 9: the air traffic system in this country during the important holidays.

618
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 9: So we're going to be the adults in the room here.

619
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 9: We're going to pause this, and we've got a vote

620
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 9: in January, and if they refuse to do this, we'll

621
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 9: shut this government down again until they do this. But

622
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 9: the problem is Chuck Schumer doesn't have credibility with the left,

623
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 9: and he doesn't now have credibility with the pragmatic wing

624
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 9: because he somehow got these people. I mean, he is

625
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 9: the one that I think is making this look worse.

626
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 9: I mean, somehow Democrats are going to snatch defeat from

627
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 9: the jaws of victory.

628
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 2: Here, what victory did they have, Chuck Todd, This is

629
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: a complete misread of the situation.

630
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: And if you want to talk about how Democrats can spin, sure,

631
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: you could spin anything, go right ahead.

632
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 2: But the question is what victory do you think you had?

633
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: I think that is the actual spin. You know what,

634
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 2: The story of the shutdown is more than just the

635
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: madness of the idea that we have it and we

636
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: still have senators who can't figure out how to do

637
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: their damn job. And this is where I think we'd

638
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 2: agree with Senator Fetterman and put forth a budget. Get

639
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: it done. What's wrong with you people? I think the

640
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: bigger story here is that the Republicans held firm. The

641
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 2: story of the shutdown is that Republicans did not cave.

642
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: And right now, now that they've already passed us in

643
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: the Senate, they got to be looking at each other

644
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 1: and saying, holy cow, we did it. We did it. Wait, wait,

645
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: we did that. What else can we do?

646
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: People are underestimating the level of game changer that is possible.

647
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: Boar here find everything at Tony Katz dot com.

648
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: Tomorrow, Everyone to take care