Speaker 1: Live from Vaal Hartbeiner and the Crossroads of America.
Speaker 2: It's Tony Katz today.
Speaker 1: So what is the obligation of the athlete to say,
Speaker 1: well anything when it comes to men and women's sports,
Speaker 1: or what's going on around the world, or what's happening domestically.
Speaker 1: Is there some type of obligation? I don't believe that
Speaker 1: there is. What I believe is that if they are
Speaker 1: going to say something, they have to be able to
Speaker 1: back it up. But when something is said so normal,
Speaker 1: like Sophie Cunningham of the Indiana Fever saying girls' sports
Speaker 1: are for girls, how could that begin to be political?
Speaker 1: And to make it political is part of this idea
Speaker 1: of culture war. And if indeed this is a culture war,
Speaker 1: not having men and women's sports, not having boys and
Speaker 1: girls sports, well I'm fine with that, and it's a
Speaker 1: war we have to win. That's Tony Kats today. Good
Speaker 1: to be with you. Jennifer say joins us right now.
Speaker 1: She is the CEO and coppo di tutti coppo. Over
Speaker 1: at xx x Y Athletics xx dash xy athletics dot
Speaker 1: com you.
Speaker 2: Can buy all your gear.
Speaker 1: There a long history in sports as a national champion
Speaker 1: gymnast and you're traveling around you have become your own
Speaker 1: level of star in this space. Along with selling a
Speaker 1: quality product. You've taken on this culture war head on.
Speaker 1: But I need to take a step back to make
Speaker 1: sure people understand where you come from, which is this
Speaker 1: world of gymnastics. You were part of the nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: six national team or a part of that group that
Speaker 1: won in my beloved Indianapolis, Indiana, and you were one
Speaker 1: of the people who worked with the Indianapolis Star talking
Speaker 1: about the horror show that was the physician Larry Nasser
Speaker 1: who is now in jail for his sexual abuse. Is
Speaker 1: guess what brings you to xxxy or is this what
Speaker 1: brings you to the idea of if we're not front
Speaker 1: and center on these issues now, we're going to deal
Speaker 1: with massive, dangerous ramifications later.
Speaker 3: That is a great question. Yeah, you're right. I was
Speaker 3: a national team member gymnasts throughout the eighties, eight time
Speaker 3: national team member, eighty six national champion in Indianapolis. I
Speaker 3: was also the first whistleblower about abuse in sports and
Speaker 3: gymnastics in particular. That was two thousand and eight when
Speaker 3: I wrote my first book called Chalked Up that was
Speaker 3: ten years before Nasser went to prison for life. As
Speaker 3: you might imagine, the US Olympic Committee and the US
Speaker 3: Olympic Movement and gymnasts, etc. They were not ready for
Speaker 3: that message. I spoke about the national team coach who
Speaker 3: I traveled around the world with in that book being
Speaker 3: a known pedophile. That did not go particularly well for me.
Speaker 3: I was pretty much ousted from that community, but I
Speaker 3: knew I needed to say it because I didn't want
Speaker 3: another little girl to go through what I had. And
Speaker 3: I did work with the Indie Star. They did such
Speaker 3: amazing work reporting on, you know, the NASA case, And
Speaker 3: I think what's important to remember about that case is
Speaker 3: NASA has not won bad apple. That sport is rotten
Speaker 3: to the core. He was able to abuse for thirty
Speaker 3: years because the governing body knew and looked the other
Speaker 3: way and actually destroyed evidence. So you know, I've been
Speaker 3: working a heart a long time to try to clean
Speaker 3: that sport up. I believe young athletes deserve to train
Speaker 3: with dignity and safety in striving to achieve their dreams.
Speaker 3: So you know, I've been at this for a while
Speaker 3: in terms of trying to protect female athletes. So yes,
Speaker 3: They're absolutely related, these two issues, and it's why I
Speaker 3: care so much about protecting women's sports. That said, I
Speaker 3: also have a kind of separate, long term corporate career
Speaker 3: as a brand builder. I worked at Levi's for twenty
Speaker 3: three years. I was a chief marketing officer for eight
Speaker 3: and the brand president for two and so I know
Speaker 3: how brands can influence the culture. And we lost the
Speaker 3: culture on this one. You slowly but surely, there was
Speaker 3: a long march to steal our language and you know,
Speaker 3: co op the culture with these terrible ideas that men
Speaker 3: can be women if they just say that they are.
Speaker 3: I want to fight this battle on cultural grounds, not legal,
Speaker 3: not political. It's the culture we need to win back,
Speaker 3: and I believe a brand can really help do that
Speaker 3: with our content, with our product. You know, I want
Speaker 3: to make it cool to say women men can't become women.
Speaker 3: I want to make it cool to say these totally
Speaker 3: normal things like women deserve their own sports and spaces.
Speaker 3: So you know, that's why we're in this game. But
Speaker 3: we do make as you mentioned, you know, hot, world
Speaker 3: class premium athletic gear. You don't need to buy some
Speaker 3: brands that throw women under the bus, like Nike you
Speaker 3: can buy from us, and we're just so thrilled to
Speaker 3: be part of this. And you know Sophie has Sophie
Speaker 3: Cunningham has thrown this issue into the center of culture.
Speaker 2: I do, but I want to bring it back a
Speaker 2: little bit.
Speaker 1: Talking to Jennifer Say, the CEO, a founder of xx
Speaker 1: dash x y Athletics xx dash x y athletics dot com.
Speaker 2: You said a lot.
Speaker 1: There, including utilizing the term long march, which I think
Speaker 1: was very, very purposeful in this way the abuse of
Speaker 1: these young girls in regarding gymnastics and the Larry Nasser story,
Speaker 1: if you haven't read it, it's horrifying stuff. You are
Speaker 1: still making these allegations about US gymnastics today. Your book
Speaker 1: Chalked Up, which you can find at Amazon dot com.
Speaker 1: You can go get that and read your accounts, just
Speaker 1: so we're clear, just so we can put the pin
Speaker 1: on that and then move on. In your view, that
Speaker 1: level of abuse, Larry Nasser level of abuse still going on.
Speaker 3: Okay, let me first of all, if you want to
Speaker 3: know about the whole Larry Nauncer story, you can watch
Speaker 3: athlete A. It's a movie on Netflix that I produced.
Speaker 3: It's a documentary. It won an Emmy back in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: You the whole story, and it connects his crimes to
Speaker 3: the broader culture of abuse. Do I want to tell
Speaker 3: you that that level of abuse is happening throughout the sport.
Speaker 3: I mean that would be extreme. He abused over five
Speaker 3: hundred athletes over the course of thirty years under the
Speaker 3: guise of medical treatment. But abuse of coaches, and I
Speaker 3: want to just say it's physical, emotional and sexual abuse
Speaker 3: is rampant in the sport of gymnastics. These are very
Speaker 3: young girls and they are very vulnerable. And because it's
Speaker 3: an individual sport, that one on one coaching dynamic is
Speaker 3: more intense, I think than in a team sport, and
Speaker 3: it just invites bad actors. I will say that it
Speaker 3: invites bad actors. Do I think it's as bad as
Speaker 3: it was in the eighties when I trained. I hope
Speaker 3: it's better. I don't know. I'm not inside the sport.
Speaker 3: People are aware, parents are aware, safe sport exists, there
Speaker 3: is a mechanism to report abuse. But I will tell
Speaker 3: you this safe sport is backed up for four years
Speaker 3: with reports of abuse. They don't even take reports of
Speaker 3: emotional and physical abuse because they're still backed up on
Speaker 3: sexual abuse claims. So we need to change the culture
Speaker 3: in that sport and in the Olympic movement overall. And
Speaker 3: I think we're on the way, but I don't think
Speaker 3: it is fixed.
Speaker 1: Now talking to Jennifer Say, the founder of xxxy Athletics
Speaker 1: xx dash xyathletics dot com, this brings us now into
Speaker 1: the conversation about Sophie Cunningham, who said something, as I've
Speaker 1: said on the show numerous times, very normal girls sports
Speaker 1: are for girls.
Speaker 2: It was so normal. I found it to be unremarkable.
Speaker 1: And I stated at the time, and I have a
Speaker 1: since then why anybody would make this political, Whether you
Speaker 1: want to laud and glorify her as some kind of
Speaker 1: right wing icon, or whether you want to go at
Speaker 1: her an attacker because you're on the political left.
Speaker 2: No part of this makes sense. The rational response is.
Speaker 1: That girls are not boys, boys are not girls, and
Speaker 1: girl sports belong to girls. This has of course been
Speaker 1: seen as somehow we for making that rational points are
Speaker 1: the biggots. You've got the owner of the Seattle Storm
Speaker 1: yelling at two girls in the crowd. You've got the
Speaker 1: coach of the Minnesota Links wearing a shirt that says
Speaker 1: protect trans kids. You have the coach of the Golden
Speaker 1: State Valkyries who wants to go out there and say
Speaker 1: sports are about belonging as opposed to the highest level
Speaker 1: of competition. Why is it that women seem to be
Speaker 1: very focused on not thinking that women deserve to be
Speaker 1: known as women.
Speaker 3: Okay, there's a lot in there. I want to back
Speaker 3: up for one shore and be clear. Sophie was asked
Speaker 3: a question in an interview that happened back in February.
Speaker 3: That ESPN interview happened months ago. She was directly asked
Speaker 3: a question. She didn't go in there, you know, ready
Speaker 3: to blow the doors off this thing and put herself
Speaker 3: at the center of this controversy. So everybody calling her
Speaker 3: Maga Barbie and all this crazy stuff. It's ridiculous. She
Speaker 3: answered a question in a very simple and pointed way,
Speaker 3: and she was very clear to your point in your
Speaker 3: opener about what she believes, and she said girls. She
Speaker 3: cares about protecting girls sports and spaces.
Speaker 2: That was it.
Speaker 3: She put the attention back on the girls when the
Speaker 3: cultural attention has been on the boys who think they
Speaker 3: are girls. Thank you for that, Sophie. I would say
Speaker 3: I agree with you. That was not remarkable. What was
Speaker 3: remarkable was just last week when she was reasked the
Speaker 3: question after that ESPN interview was published, and she said,
Speaker 3: I said what I said. She did not back it up.
Speaker 3: She did not bend to any That was the remarkable part.
Speaker 3: That was the line in the sand, because a year ago,
Speaker 3: I'm not sure she would have stood around. I don't
Speaker 3: want to speak for Sophie, but I'll just tell you
Speaker 3: every we see it all the time, right, somebody says
Speaker 3: something and then they back it up. When challenged, they bend, deny.
Speaker 3: She didn't do it. She stood strong, Her spine is straight.
Speaker 3: Bless her. She is, you know, blowing the doors up
Speaker 3: this thing. So that's the first thing. And I agree
Speaker 3: with you. This whole like mumbo jump from all these
Speaker 3: coaches about inclusivity and sports. It's such hogwash. I was
Speaker 3: a competitive aout. Sports are about striving and competition and
Speaker 3: striving for excellence and yes winning. In professional women's basketball,
Speaker 3: less than one percent of college basketball players make the WNBA.
Speaker 3: That's exclusive. Sports are about exclusivity. If you want inclusivity,
Speaker 3: go play pickleball at the Rack Center. That's inclusive. Not
Speaker 3: women's professional basketball. It's so dumb when sports have all
Speaker 3: kinds of categories. They have age categories, weight classes. In boxing,
Speaker 3: no one's saying that heavyweights should be able to box
Speaker 3: against the welterweight. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 3: But clearly they're talking points went out and that's what
Speaker 3: they're going with. It's just ridiculous. As far as why
Speaker 3: women are our own worst enemy here, I don't know.
Speaker 3: They are the ones the left has made this political.
Speaker 3: We are speaking common sense. Men cannot become women, and
Speaker 3: women deserve their own sports and spaces. It's so simple.
Speaker 3: I will say it all day long, over and over again.
Speaker 3: Their position makes zero sense. But they are so loyal
Speaker 3: and committed to the Democrat Party talking points that they
Speaker 3: will pronounce themselves more on every day in saying I'm
Speaker 3: not educated enough. One of the coaches said that to
Speaker 3: talk on this issue, they will beclown themselves every day
Speaker 3: to stay loyal to the Democratic Party talking points on this,
Speaker 3: and it's embarrassing, and every passing day more people abandoned
Speaker 3: that position. Fewer and fewer people are afraid to stand
Speaker 3: up and say, yeah, this is ridiculous. Not my daughter's sport.
Speaker 1: Lets let's say that that's true. I certainly hope you're
Speaker 1: right about that, Jennifer. But in the case of the WNBA,
Speaker 1: which has become the hot button point, I mean, this
Speaker 1: is happening in tennis, but tennis has said we don't
Speaker 1: let men in the sport, and there are women in
Speaker 1: tennis saying I agree. It's certainly Martina ne Rachlova has
Speaker 1: been very outspoken on this subject, and.
Speaker 2: I think, for the most part, very very well.
Speaker 1: But the WNBA has a commissioner, Kathy Andnglbrick, who has
Speaker 1: said nothing. It has a coach in the Minnesota Lynks
Speaker 1: who wears that shirt protect trans kids, who as a
Speaker 1: coach in the Golden State Valkyries who says it's about
Speaker 1: a belonging and look at what they said about me
Speaker 1: because of my race, and she brought race into the subject.
Speaker 2: You have the coach of the Indiana.
Speaker 1: Fever, Stephanie White, who wants to not just heim and
Speaker 1: haw about it, act like she doesn't know enough about it,
Speaker 1: engage the idea of I need to get more educated.
Speaker 1: So as a league, the WNBA has created this problem
Speaker 1: seemingly for themselves, where they have forgotten that the W
Speaker 1: stands for women.
Speaker 2: What is your messaging?
Speaker 3: Both said to them, Well, I would just tell you
Speaker 3: the culture is moving. We have long heard that eighty
Speaker 3: percent of Americans agree on this common sense issue that
Speaker 3: women's sports are for women, but the vast majority have
Speaker 3: been silent. I know this very well. I hear from
Speaker 3: them all the time. They're afraid to speak out. They're
Speaker 3: afraid to lose their job, they're afraid to be called names.
Speaker 3: They're afraid their kids won't have friends at school. But
Speaker 3: that's changing. That culture shift is happening in real time.
Speaker 3: What I will tell you is the institutions, they're far behind.
Speaker 3: The mainstream media is far behind. Their headlines don't match
Speaker 3: where the culture is and where the people are. The universities,
Speaker 3: the institutions, the teams, the leagues like the WNBA, but
Speaker 3: they are so out of touch with real people that
Speaker 3: they are just making a mockery at themselves every day.
Speaker 3: But this is why it's going to take a while.
Speaker 3: It took ten or fifteen years for us to get
Speaker 3: to this ridiculous place. We're not going to unwind it
Speaker 3: with one WNBA season. But the more people stand up,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you I was in Minneapolis at the last
Speaker 3: game and against the Links, the fever. Against the Links,
Speaker 3: we had a rally to celebrate Sophie outside the stadium
Speaker 3: and we outnumbered the clowns on the other side by
Speaker 3: at least ten to one. That wouldn't have happened a
Speaker 3: year ago. And in the stadium, you're right about the broadcast.
Speaker 3: The coach for the Links wore the T shirt about
Speaker 3: trans kids belonging, and there were lots of people in
Speaker 3: the stadium that had similar teas on what was happening
Speaker 3: in the stadium was not reflective the broadcast ESPN Lockdown,
Speaker 3: and they decided to make this a pro trans game.
Speaker 3: The only people they showed in the audience had those
Speaker 3: T shirts on. I was sitting on the second row
Speaker 3: on the court with Riley Gaines. We had xxxy T
Speaker 3: shirts on. The cameras kept finding us and they would
Speaker 3: not show us in the broadcaster on the jumbo tron.
Speaker 3: We met people on in the stadium, stopped us as
Speaker 3: for hugs and photos and autographs. They bought us drinks,
Speaker 3: they bought us food, they thanked us. So the story
Speaker 3: that ESPN wants to tell is not the story of
Speaker 3: what was happening on the ground. So this is the
Speaker 3: last gasp of a dying movement and the institutions that
Speaker 3: are so out of touch with people. But they're going
Speaker 3: to lose. They're going to lose this battle because we're
Speaker 3: right and we're speaking the truth and we're standing up
Speaker 3: for girls.
Speaker 1: And you're you're I mean, I'm gonna call it a tour,
Speaker 1: but you're hitting more of these WNB games. You're coming
Speaker 1: to my beloved Indianapolis to see the fever. I'm only
Speaker 1: hoping we were able to grab a cigar when you're here.
Speaker 1: But is this about putting more pressure on on them?
Speaker 1: Is this about bringing more light? Is this just marketing
Speaker 1: for xxtash xy athletics dot com.
Speaker 3: This is about celebrating Sophie and celebrating Honillie Wilson, the
Speaker 3: young girl who was at the Seattle game who got
Speaker 3: spit on and screamed at by the co owner of
Speaker 3: the Seattle Storm. This is about letting them know that
Speaker 3: they have support for those of us that have been
Speaker 3: apt As a while it has felt very lonely. You
Speaker 3: would not believe, you probably would believe the harassment and
Speaker 3: threats that we receive every single day. And I want
Speaker 3: Sophie's obviously getting no support from the league, from her teammates,
Speaker 3: I want her to know that she's supported. We go
Speaker 3: in peace and we go in love. We bring balloons,
Speaker 3: we give out T shirts, we have fun. We get
Speaker 3: shouted down by insane lunatics who call us terrible, terrible names,
Speaker 3: which I won't mention because you can't save them on
Speaker 3: the radio. We just want her to know she's supported.
Speaker 3: That's really, that's it, and we want people to know
Speaker 3: it's normal to support her and to say women's sports
Speaker 3: are for women.
Speaker 1: I'm not one hundred percent sure where all her teammates are.
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily need them to make a statement every
Speaker 1: which way but loose. But your support is something that
Speaker 1: is seen very very clearly. Jennifer say s e y
Speaker 1: is how you expel that. Xx dash x Yathletics dot Com.
Speaker 1: I look forward to seeing you when you are in Indianapolis.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking the time to be with the
Speaker 1: show more to get to keep it here.
Speaker 2: I'm Tony Katz, and this is Tony Katz today.