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Speaker 1: I do believe we're not giving enough credit to Elon Musk,

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Speaker 1: and I think the people who wanted to push him

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Speaker 1: to the side when he had his little row with

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Speaker 1: President Trump, we're making a huge, huge.

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Speaker 2: Mistake, because every day it.

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Speaker 1: Seems we get a little closer to realizing how much

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Speaker 1: garbage is in our social media feeds and who is

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Speaker 1: selling us the garbage.

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Speaker 2: Tony Katz, Tony Katz today, good to be with you.

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Speaker 1: William Jacobson joins me right now, Cornell Law professor, the

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Speaker 1: mind behind legal insurrection dot com. I want to get

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Speaker 1: to the story about this new tool on x the

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Speaker 1: fake accounts, really how it has affected this war regarding

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Speaker 1: Hamas and Israel, and how it lied to millions and millions.

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Speaker 2: Of people around the globe.

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Speaker 1: But before I do, we saw the cases against James

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Speaker 1: Comey and le Teacher James kicked out by a judge,

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Speaker 1: the argument being that, especially in the James Comy case.

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Speaker 2: That the prosecutors put in place was not properly put

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Speaker 2: in place.

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Speaker 1: This Lindsay Halligan, there's been a lot of issues about this,

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Speaker 1: and therefore, if there's no real prosecutor, there's no real

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Speaker 1: person in place, there's no.

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Speaker 2: Real case to be brought here. I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: Get into the case, the details of the Komi case,

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Speaker 1: but rather get into the details or the thoughts about

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Speaker 1: the Pam Bondi Justice Department I had high hopes for

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Speaker 1: I don't think she's living up to the high hopes.

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Speaker 1: Is this more aging incompetence as you see it?

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Speaker 3: You know, well, I wouldn't sweep her away completely, but

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Speaker 3: this is an example of a judge finding that the

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Speaker 3: federal government improperly exercised their right to have an interim appointment.

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Speaker 3: So basically the gist of the decision, without getting into

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Speaker 3: the specific wording, is that the statute that authorizes the

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Speaker 3: appointment of interim United States attorneys only allows you to

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Speaker 3: do that once. It does not allow successful successive interim appointments.

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Speaker 3: That after you've done it once in one hundred and

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Speaker 3: twenty days has passed, then you have the decision to

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Speaker 3: be made by the district court the judges. And so

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Speaker 3: here the judges asserting they messed up that procedure. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if they did or they didn't. It has

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Speaker 3: to do with statutory reading and things like that. But

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Speaker 3: the issue is if there had not, if there had

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Speaker 3: been multiple prosecutors, for example, participating in the presentation of

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Speaker 3: the indictment, this would be a non issue. But because

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Speaker 3: the government chose to only use one prosecutor before the

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Speaker 3: grand jury and one prosecutor to certify the indictment, and

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Speaker 3: that prosecutor is the one in question, they're saying was

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Speaker 3: unlawfully appointed, that's where we are. But if they had

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Speaker 3: multiple prosecutors participating, this wouldn't even be an issue. So

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Speaker 3: I think you can say this is another example of

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Speaker 3: arguably the Trump administration perhaps not dotting the eyes and

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Speaker 3: crossing the t's, perhaps not backstopping them with alternatives. This

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Speaker 3: was an entirely predictable problem. So I think this really

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Speaker 3: calls into question, you know, how much attention to detail

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Speaker 3: are they spending?

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Speaker 2: I mean, that is just it.

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Speaker 1: You know, is the Attorney General of Pam BONDI doing

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Speaker 1: your job, you said, you know, don't sweep our away altogether.

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Speaker 1: I feel often that I'm not seeing results, and what

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing is just not a really clean professional message

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Speaker 1: and professional placement of the work.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the way I'm doing it. I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of others.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, results sometimes take time, so I'm

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Speaker 3: less critical of Horror, I'm less critical of the FBI.

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Speaker 3: Everybody's complaining about cash, but talent Dan Vongino, who I

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Speaker 3: like a lot. You know, I'm not as worried things

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Speaker 3: take time, particularly since we have met a really unprecedented

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Speaker 3: level of obstruction by the Democrats and by the district courts. Now,

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying this decision was improper by the district

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Speaker 3: court judge. I did read the decision and the judge

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Speaker 3: went through the statue statutory interpretation. But we have had

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Speaker 3: many decisions from district court judges around the country which

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Speaker 3: read like political manifestos, which read like a campaign speech,

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Speaker 3: and so it's been a problem. Also, there's been a

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Speaker 3: problem getting US attorneys confirmed by the Senate, and that

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Speaker 3: Why has the Trump administration not forced that through? Why

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Speaker 3: haven't Republicans in the Congress in the Senate forced that through.

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Speaker 3: We're in this predicament because the Democrats have been successful

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Speaker 3: in obstructing Trump's ability to get his people into place,

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Speaker 3: which is the only reason you needed successive interim appointments,

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Speaker 3: which created this whole problem. So, you know, I don't

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Speaker 3: blame Pambondi for this problem. I frankly blame the administration

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Speaker 3: and the Senate Republicans for not getting Trump's people appointed.

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Speaker 3: What is the problem here, and that's really what caused

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Speaker 3: all this Democrat obstruction has been pretty successful.

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Speaker 1: Talking to William Jacobs and Cornell law professor legal insurrection

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Speaker 1: dot com, let me bring.

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Speaker 2: You to this.

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Speaker 1: You've got the story there at legal insurrection dot com.

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Speaker 1: Barn fake Maga anti Israel accounts exposed in X location disclosure.

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Speaker 2: Take the time walk me through it.

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Speaker 1: What is it that Elon Musk and X have now

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Speaker 1: allowed to take place? What can you see and what

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Speaker 1: in your view and as you're writing about it, what

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Speaker 1: does it expose that people who are utilizing social media

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Speaker 1: as a way of getting news need to know.

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Speaker 3: Well, for a long time, many of us, including me,

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Speaker 3: have been complaining that what's happening on X is obviously

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Speaker 3: a foreign information operation. It's obvious interference, it's obvious bot activity.

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Speaker 3: None of this is new. And what has happened is

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Speaker 3: that X bases its algorithms and other things on engagement,

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Speaker 3: and the more you get engaged, the more they boost you.

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Speaker 3: And so what you have is you have foreign operations

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Speaker 3: getting their people boosted on X. To create a false narrative,

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Speaker 3: and unfortunately it's been particularly with regard to Israel, but

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Speaker 3: it's also negative towards Trump. And so what you finally

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Speaker 3: had happened. Finally, after years of this, you have x

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Speaker 3: turning live a feature where you can see where the

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Speaker 3: account is posting from or if they're trying to hide

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Speaker 3: that through a VPN, then it will show you that

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Speaker 3: they're using a VPN, which is a signal they're trying

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Speaker 3: to hide or could be a signal. And what we

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Speaker 3: found was that there's an entire industry out there, and

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Speaker 3: I'll break it down into multiple tiers. First of all,

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Speaker 3: fake Gaza war accounts, people supposedly posting from Gaza about

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Speaker 3: atrocities that of course never happened. And in fact, we

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Speaker 3: now know that they're not in Gaza, they're not in

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Speaker 3: the Middle East. A lot of them are nowhere near

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Speaker 3: where you're staying Bangladesh. You know, these are operations of

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Speaker 3: you know, people posting, you know, I'm sitting in attenting

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Speaker 3: Gaza and eight children just got killed by Israel. Well

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Speaker 3: that person's posting from Bangladesh and in one case from Poland.

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Speaker 3: So these are complete fakery that has created a narrative

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Speaker 3: of genocide and other things in the Israel Gaza war

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Speaker 3: which are simply not true, and that has penetrated, that

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Speaker 3: has changed the public consciousness. So those are the fake

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Speaker 3: accounts posting fake information. And then you have the fake

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Speaker 3: MAGA aunts, which are very viciously going after Israel America

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Speaker 3: First America only you know, I can't afford a house

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Speaker 3: because we give three billion dollars a year to Israel.

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Speaker 3: All those sort of narratives which have also penetrated, but

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Speaker 3: they turns out that they're not by real America First accounts.

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Speaker 3: A lot of them are not by people even in

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Speaker 3: the United States. Again the usual suspects in Nigeria, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan,

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Speaker 3: elsewhere in the Middle East. So what you have is

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Speaker 3: you have stoking of hatred towards Israel by supposedly America

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Speaker 3: First accounts accounts which often say I'm from Texas and

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to stand and i don't like the

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Speaker 3: Israel occupation of our government and I'm in Texas and

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Speaker 3: the person's actually in Bangladesh, and it's just complete fakery.

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Speaker 3: So you have a real narrative, and I think damage

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Speaker 3: has been.

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Speaker 1: Done talking to William Jacobs and Cornell Law professor Legal Insurrection.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you that the damage has been done.

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Speaker 1: Elon's doing this was this. I've heard some people say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: it was this person's idea or somebody spoke to them

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Speaker 1: about this. This is really a lifting of the veil

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Speaker 1: and more transparency that we've seen from certainly any other

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Speaker 1: social media platform.

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Speaker 2: Before we get just a little bit deeper, is there.

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Speaker 1: I believe that this will change how people see or

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Speaker 1: engage with the content that's now out there.

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Speaker 3: I hope so, you know, I really do hope so.

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Speaker 3: And there's also a third tier of this manipulation which

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Speaker 3: really has not been exposed by this location data, which

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Speaker 3: is the promotion of certain accounts. So not only do

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Speaker 3: you have fake accounts posting fake news about what's happening

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Speaker 3: in Guayza, what's supposedly the feelings of America first people

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Speaker 3: towards Israel stoking that, you also have bought accounts that

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Speaker 3: are promoting legitimate American accounts. So we should not be deceived.

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Speaker 3: This is not all foreigners. There are Americans doing this

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Speaker 3: stuff too, and they are getting boosted and that's not

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Speaker 3: been exposed. What I'd love to see is transparency as

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Speaker 3: to where the people retweeting, reposting, sharing, liking posts are, so,

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Speaker 3: you know, in addition to saying where is the person

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Speaker 3: posting from, I think it would be great to have

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Speaker 3: a country by country breakdown of who's sharing their content,

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Speaker 3: because I think what you're going to find is a

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Speaker 3: lot of legitimately American accounts who are nasty people are

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Speaker 3: getting promoted just in the way that these fake accounts

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Speaker 3: promoted themselves. And I think that's really got to be

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Speaker 3: the next thing, because this is a massive disinformation operation.

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Speaker 3: This is a massive manipulation of our country.

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Speaker 2: Not at all you and I are on the same

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Speaker 2: page on this.

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Speaker 1: Is there a legal remedy or is there an I

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Speaker 1: legal obligation that Elon Musk has and X has to

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Speaker 1: not allowing that to take place?

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Speaker 2: I mean, can you regulate who retweets home?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, criticizing it and exposing it and providing

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Speaker 3: transparency is not the same as preventing it. And so

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Speaker 3: that's a whole different argument. And one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: the rules were relaxed so much is that we saw

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Speaker 3: under the Biden administration, pressure on Facebook, pressure on other

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Speaker 3: social media operations to censor content. I mean, I remember

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Speaker 3: in our own account at Legal Insurrection on Facebook, we

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Speaker 3: just avoided posting anything about climate change or COVID or

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Speaker 3: whatever because they so heavily censored it. We'd get you

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Speaker 3: tagged on it by Facebook, and you get three or

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Speaker 3: four tags, and all of a sudden, they kick you

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Speaker 3: off the platform. So we just avoided it completely because

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Speaker 3: we didn't agree with the popular narrative. And so that's

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Speaker 3: the extreme that people reacted to and said we should

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Speaker 3: have absolutely no limitations on Twitter and social media. And

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Speaker 3: now we're seeing the byproduct of that is that foreigners

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Speaker 3: have jumped into the void to manipulate systems that have

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Speaker 3: no control mechanism in them. What is the right answer.

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Speaker 3: I think we're heading towards the right answer, and it's transparency.

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Speaker 3: It's don't allow these foreigners to pretend, you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: a redneck from Texas and I don't want my money

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Speaker 3: going to Israel or I'm not going to die for Israel.

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Speaker 3: Meanwhile you're sitting in Bangladesh, you know that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: I think transparency is probably the best answer rather than censorship. Now,

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Speaker 3: I do believe that it would be consistent with free

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Speaker 3: speech and free you know, exchange of ideas for Twitter

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Speaker 3: to say, if you are going to lie about where

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Speaker 3: you are, then maybe that's a violation of our terms. Okay,

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Speaker 3: we're not going to sensor you for your opinion, but

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Speaker 3: if you're going to conduct fraud on our platform and

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Speaker 3: you're going to misrepresent yourself as being you know, a

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Speaker 3: farmer in you know, Missouri, but you're actually just a

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Speaker 3: bot farm in India, you know, that's a misrepresentation. That's

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Speaker 3: a fraud on the platform. And I would like to

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Speaker 3: see that sort of outright fraud and misrepresentation addressed by

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Speaker 3: X because it's already in their terms of service. They're

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Speaker 3: just enforcing it. I don't think we need opinions censored,

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Speaker 3: but fraud should absolutely be regulated, and it would I

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Speaker 3: don't know if it's a legal obligation, but it certainly

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Speaker 3: would be an x's interest because up until recently and

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Speaker 3: certainly with this exposure, you know, it has now the

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Speaker 3: reputation of being a you know, a manipulation device, and

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's what Elon Musk wanted it to be.

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Speaker 3: He wanted to be a place where people could freely

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Speaker 3: exchange their ideas instead it's a site for rampant fraud.

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Speaker 1: William Jacobs and Cornell law professor legal insurrection dot com.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking time to be with us and

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Speaker 1: more to get to I'm Tony Katz.

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Speaker 2: This is Tony Katz Today