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Speaker 1: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of

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Speaker 1: a free state, the right of the people to keep

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Speaker 1: in their arms shall not be infringed. This is the

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Speaker 1: Second Amendment, and this is the Gun Guy.

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Speaker 2: Boom boom boom boom bang bang bang bang boom boom

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Speaker 2: boom boom bang bang.

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Speaker 1: Bo Guy Ralford on ninety three WYBC.

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Speaker 3: And good afternoon. I'm welcome to the Gun Guy Show

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Speaker 3: here on ninety three WYDC with thrill that you're with us.

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Speaker 3: I hope you're enjoying your weekend so far. Dam I'm really

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Speaker 3: excited about today's show coming up at five point thirty.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to have a guest that I'm really fascinated

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Speaker 3: to talk to. And his name is Barry Todd. And

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Speaker 3: Barry Todd was involved in a real self defense shooting

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Speaker 3: where he was literally defending his life life in Uma,

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Speaker 3: Arizona in twenty fourteen. And you know, doing what I

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Speaker 3: do for a living, that is defending self defense cases

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Speaker 3: for real clients in real courtrooms. You know, one thing

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Speaker 3: I see, whether it's on social media or in the

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Speaker 3: general media or wherever it might be, that people have

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Speaker 3: sort of a romanticized view of self defense shootings and

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Speaker 3: a lot of times I think an unrealistic view of

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Speaker 3: what it really means if you get caught up in

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Speaker 3: a self defense scenario where you're called upon necessarily to

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Speaker 3: defend yourself or defend someone else, including with deadly force.

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Speaker 3: And the reason I spend so much time talking about

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Speaker 3: the reason I spend so much time teaching that area

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Speaker 3: of the law just we could go Today, I was

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Speaker 3: out at Parabellum Firearms out in Avon, and in a

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Speaker 3: five hour course, we spent a good two hours of

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Speaker 3: it talking about the law of self defense and when

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Speaker 3: you're actually allowed under Indiana law and Barry Todd's situation

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Speaker 3: happened in Arizona, and there are certainly differences, and there

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Speaker 3: are certainly similarities between Indiana and Arizona law, but a

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Speaker 3: tremendous overlap. But in the meantime, the reason I spend

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Speaker 3: so much time talking about that is that, and I

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Speaker 3: always praise it this way in my courses. The way

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Speaker 3: that self defense works, the way that the justifiable and

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Speaker 3: legal use of force and self defense or defense of

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Speaker 3: a third person, the way that actually works is it

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Speaker 3: takes an act. And this is exactly the way I

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Speaker 3: start this discussion in my courses. The law of self

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Speaker 3: defense takes an act, and it could be something like

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Speaker 3: punching someone in the face. It could be as significant

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Speaker 3: as intentionally killing a person. I mean, what's the intentional

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Speaker 3: killing of a human being? That's murder. That's how Indiana

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Speaker 3: defines murder. It's the intentional killing of a human being.

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Speaker 3: If someone kicks on my door in the middle of

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Speaker 3: the night, and they walked through the broken door with

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Speaker 3: a sawd off shotgun in their hands, and I point

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Speaker 3: my pistol at his chest and pull the trigger four

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Speaker 3: times and he dies, was that the intentional killing of

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Speaker 3: a human being? Well, of course, I pointed my gun

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Speaker 3: loaded with competent self defense ammunition, at center mass center

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Speaker 3: of his chest, and I pulled the trigger four times.

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Speaker 3: Any reasonable person would expect that person to die under

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Speaker 3: that circumstance. That was the intentional killing of a human being.

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Speaker 3: That's the definition of murder. So why don't I go

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Speaker 3: to prison for murder? Because the law of self defense

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Speaker 3: says in certain scenarios, in certain situations, if you meet

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Speaker 3: certain tests, then what would otherwise be a criminal act,

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Speaker 3: including the most severe of criminal acts, murder, for which

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Speaker 3: you can get life in prison, or that, under some circumstances,

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Speaker 3: the death penalty, and certainly forty to fifty sixty years

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Speaker 3: in prison. Here in Indiana, it takes that same act,

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Speaker 3: the intentional killing a human being, and says, no, that's

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Speaker 3: legal and it's justified, and you go home and sleep

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Speaker 3: in your own bed that night. And that all depends

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Speaker 3: on which side of that self defense line you're on.

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Speaker 3: Are you on the line that says yes, under that

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Speaker 3: particular set of circumstances, you are legal and justified in

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Speaker 3: intentionally killing a human being. And if you just fall

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Speaker 3: on the other side of that line where you're not justified,

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Speaker 3: now you're guilty of a very serious crime that can

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Speaker 3: be murder, can be aggravated battery, could be attempted murder

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Speaker 3: if the person doesn't die, and any number of other

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Speaker 3: serious crimes, including reckless homicide, criminal recklessness of the deadly weapon.

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Speaker 3: It goes on from there, and Barry Todd, gentleman that's

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Speaker 3: gonna join us at five point thirty, was involved in

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Speaker 3: a situation where he had every reason to believe that

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Speaker 3: what he did was absolutely justified in self defense under

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Speaker 3: Arizona law, and in the context that we're going to

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Speaker 3: discuss that issue. Arizona law is very very similar to

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Speaker 3: Indiana law. Yet he was still prosecuted. He was still prosecuted,

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Speaker 3: He was still pursued in a way that very nearly

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Speaker 3: cost him his not only his freedom to the extent

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Speaker 3: he could go to jail for many, many many years,

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Speaker 3: cost him his business which he had built from the

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Speaker 3: ground up, and it still cost him six figures. It

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Speaker 3: still cost him literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, all

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Speaker 3: because a prosecutor contended that he was on the wrong

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Speaker 3: side of that law under Arizona law in terms of

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Speaker 3: whether what he did was justified or not. And that's

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Speaker 3: what I do for a living. I have pending cases

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Speaker 3: right now. I have a murder case pending right now,

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Speaker 3: and I absolutely will not discuss any specifics on the radio.

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Speaker 3: But my client's accused him murder and our claim absolutely positively,

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Speaker 3: without question, his self defense. My client was actually shot

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Speaker 3: during a struggle. Prosecution says, no, it's not justified self defense,

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Speaker 3: and whether it's self defense or not, because there's not

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Speaker 3: really much dispute over what happened except whether my client

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Speaker 3: was justified in doing what he did. And again, that's

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Speaker 3: why I'm fascinating and having mister Todd, Barry Todd on

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Speaker 3: the show. He's going to join us at five thirty,

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Speaker 3: but I'm gonna spend quite a bit of time on

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Speaker 3: the show because we are anticipating that call, and I

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Speaker 3: think what will be a very interesting interview. I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: spend quite a bit of time talking about the law

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Speaker 3: of self defense and how exactly the law of self

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Speaker 3: defense works. I'm going to focus around Indiana law, and

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Speaker 3: then we'll talk about how that varies from state to state.

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Speaker 3: Mister Todd wrote a book, and I read his book.

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Speaker 3: He was nice enough to send me a copy. Publicist

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Speaker 3: actually did send me a copy. In his book is

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Speaker 3: called standrew Ground, One Man's Self Defense Nightmare. It's got

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Speaker 3: some really good artwork. I'll tell you right now. I

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Speaker 3: commend whoever designed this cover because it has us the

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Speaker 3: Lady Justice statue, and you've seen this a million times

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Speaker 3: around courtrooms and other places. It's a lady kind of

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Speaker 3: looks like the Statue of Liberty, except she's holding up

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Speaker 3: a set of scales and she's got a blindfold on

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Speaker 3: the idea that justice is blind, but as sort of

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Speaker 3: a silhouette, almost a shadow behind her, and you can

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Speaker 3: look us up the books for sale on Amazon. I've

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Speaker 3: read it for somebody who's interested in self defense and

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Speaker 3: Standard Ground laws in particular. Is absolutely fascinating to me.

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Speaker 3: But it's sort of a silhouette, almost a shadow behind

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Speaker 3: Lady Justice on this cover is something that looks unmistakably

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Speaker 3: like the shadow of death. And it really is good

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Speaker 3: art in the sense that it communicates exactly what it's

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Speaker 3: intended to, which is that if justice gets mischaracterized, if

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Speaker 3: justice gets misapplied, then that can turn into something much

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Speaker 3: much darker and much much more sinister. And that's exactly

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Speaker 3: what this artwork on the cover of Standard Ground One

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Speaker 3: Man's Self Defense Nightmare portrays and incredibly well, So we'll

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Speaker 3: talk more about that when we come back. Right now,

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Speaker 3: we're taking a break, but I'm really interested in this,

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Speaker 3: and I really want to take your calls and get

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Speaker 3: your questions and comments about the law of self defense,

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Speaker 3: exactly how self defense works. A lot of people have

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Speaker 3: a lot of it very profound misunderstandings about the law

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Speaker 3: of self defense. And I see these things on social

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Speaker 3: media all the time. For instance, I see p will say, well,

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Speaker 3: all I have to do is say I feared from

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Speaker 3: my life, and that just allows me to do whatever

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Speaker 3: I want to do, whether it's shoot someone or stab

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Speaker 3: someone or run over them with a car or whatever

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Speaker 3: it might be. Well, I feared for my life, Aha,

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Speaker 3: some magic wand that protects me. No, that's not how

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Speaker 3: it works. That's not how any of this works. But

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Speaker 3: we'll talk more about that and get into the specifics

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Speaker 3: of mister Todd's situation. Right now, we're taking a break.

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Speaker 3: We want to invite your calls, as we always do

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Speaker 3: here on the Gun Guy Show. Give us a call

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Speaker 3: three one seven two three nine ninety three ninety three.

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Speaker 3: Want the focus here to be, at least on the

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Speaker 3: first part of the show, the law of self defense,

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Speaker 3: house self defense actually operates, and what really gun owners?

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Speaker 3: If you have a gun on the nightstand, you have

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Speaker 3: a shotgun next to the bed. Certainly if you carry

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Speaker 3: a gun, have a gun in your vehicle, or any

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Speaker 3: other means of deadly force in your vehicle, even is

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Speaker 3: a means of deadly force. What you really need to

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Speaker 3: know about the law of self defense. That's why I

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Speaker 3: teach the classes that I do, That's why I discuss

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Speaker 3: it so much here on the Gun Guy Show. But

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Speaker 3: we'll talk more a lot about that here throughout the show.

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Speaker 3: Give us a call. Three one seven nine ninety three

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Speaker 3: ninety three. Three one seven two three nine ninety three

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Speaker 3: ninety three, says Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy Show

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Speaker 3: on ninety three WYBC.

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Speaker 1: Second to none on this second amendment. This is the

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Speaker 1: Gun Guy with Guy Ralford on ninety three WYBC.

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Speaker 3: Man, Welcome back on Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy

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Speaker 3: Show on ninety three WIBC. We're talking about the law

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Speaker 3: of self defense, how self defense cases actually work. And

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Speaker 3: as I mentioned before the break, the fundamental concept when

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Speaker 3: people need to get their heads around is that the

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Speaker 3: law self defense takes an act, which can include shooting

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Speaker 3: someone killing someone. I mean, how important, how profound, how

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Speaker 3: life changing can those type of events be. But it

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Speaker 3: takes that kind of an event depending on whether you're

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Speaker 3: on the side of lawful justification or you're not. That

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Speaker 3: can literally make the difference between whether you go spend

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Speaker 3: sixty years in prison or whether you're not guilty of

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Speaker 3: any crime and you go home, as I said, and

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Speaker 3: sleep in your own bed. And that's why it's so

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Speaker 3: incredibly important. An awful lot of people I think just

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Speaker 3: from reading a lot of posts. I mean, I'm on

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Speaker 3: a lot of the gun related firearms related, defense related

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Speaker 3: pages or networks platforms, and I think there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of miss understandings about how that law really works.

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Speaker 3: And I represent clients. I don't think any currently, but

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Speaker 3: I've certainly represented clients over my forty three years a

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Speaker 3: self defense attorney forty two I guess soon to be

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Speaker 3: forty three where people got caught up in the legal

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Speaker 3: system in part because they had a real misunderstanding of

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Speaker 3: how the self defense works or how the justice system

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Speaker 3: works in that context. And that's why I'm again excited

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Speaker 3: about the show. So, first of all, in Indiana, if

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Speaker 3: we're talking about the use of a gun, and again,

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Speaker 3: even though we're going to talk about a specific case

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Speaker 3: that unfolded in Arizona, there are just tremendous overlaps from

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Speaker 3: everything I've read, including mister Barry Todd's book in its entirety,

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of overlaps. First of all, if

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Speaker 3: there's a gun involved, you know, Indiana has a case

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Speaker 3: that says that merely pointing a loaded gun at someone

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Speaker 3: creates a substantial risk of serious bodily injury. Do you

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Speaker 3: know what creating a substantial risk of serious bodily injury is?

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Speaker 3: That's the definition of deadly force. So there's a Court

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Speaker 3: of Appeals decision if you want to look it up.

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Speaker 3: It's called nance versus State an antz, And the Court

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Speaker 3: of Appeals in Indiana said, well, yeah, I'm pointing a

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Speaker 3: loaded gun on someone creates a substantial risk of serious

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Speaker 3: bodily injury. So if you're going to even point a

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Speaker 3: gun at someone, much less pull the trigger, you have

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Speaker 3: to be justified in the use of deadly force. Well,

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Speaker 3: how many people carrying guns in Indiana? And this is

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Speaker 3: not a criticism, it's just a rhetorical question. How many

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Speaker 3: people in Indiana who carry guns, have a gun in

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Speaker 3: the car, have a gun on the night stand next

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Speaker 3: to their bed. Don't know when exactly it is that

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Speaker 3: they're justified in the use of deadly force, especially in

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Speaker 3: a state where the law is the current state of

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Speaker 3: the law is even pointing your gun at someone in

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Speaker 3: order to be legal means you must be justified in

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Speaker 3: the use of deadly force unless you're a police officer

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Speaker 3: within the legal performance of your official responsibilities. So you're

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Speaker 3: someone like me, and most of you who are not

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Speaker 3: a cop. We got to know when we can pull

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Speaker 3: the gun out of the whole store. We got to

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Speaker 3: know when we can point it at someone, and we

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Speaker 3: certainly need to know when we can pull the trigger.

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Speaker 3: And how many people do well. Again, that's why I

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Speaker 3: teach my class. That's why you hear me plugging the

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Speaker 3: class here so consistently, and it's something that I know

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Speaker 3: there's a profound need for in Indiana. Let me answer

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Speaker 3: the question here a little bit. There are four distinct

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Speaker 3: circumstances in which you're justified in using deadly force and

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Speaker 3: self defense or defensive a third person. And you want

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Speaker 3: to look all this up, it's all spelled out in

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Speaker 3: the statute. We have a self defense statute. It's Indiana

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Speaker 3: Code thirty five Dash forty one dash three dash two.

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Speaker 3: It has a bunch of subsections. It was all the

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Speaker 3: way through I want to say, sub section K, so

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Speaker 3: a whole bunch of subsections. It talks about different situations,

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Speaker 3: different scenarios. But in terms of when you're justified in

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Speaker 3: using deadly force, there are basically four times you can

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Speaker 3: do that. And again we're talking about Indiana law here,

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Speaker 3: since that's where our immediate audience primarily is although realizing

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Speaker 3: people listen to the podcast from all over and they're

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Speaker 3: a tremendous overlap. Certainly there are differences, but there's tremendous

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Speaker 3: overlap from state to state. In Indiana, you can use

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Speaker 3: deadly force first if you reasonably believe, and that reasonable

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Speaker 3: belief is so huge that that force, meaning deadly force,

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Speaker 3: is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to you or

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Speaker 3: a third person. To prevent serious bodily injury to you

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Speaker 3: or a third person, I believe that subsection C of

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Speaker 3: the statute. Don't have it in front of me, but

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Speaker 3: I've been teaching it and working with it for a

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Speaker 3: long time. So serious bodily injury you're preventing to you

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Speaker 3: or a third person. What also says right in that

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Speaker 3: same section is this says you're justified in using reasonable

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Speaker 3: excuse me, and using reasonable force, including deadly force, if

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Speaker 3: you reasonably believe that force is necessary to prevent the

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Speaker 3: commission of a forcible felony. What's a forcible felony, Well,

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Speaker 3: it's a felony committed through the use or threat of force.

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Speaker 3: So there are a lot of felonies that are that

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Speaker 3: are that are punishable as felony, and a felony is

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Speaker 3: simply defined as a crime punishable by over one year

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Speaker 3: in prison. That is, the maximum penalty is over one year.

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Speaker 3: But there are a lot of felonies that are not

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Speaker 3: forcible felonies. If there's a guy at the parking garage

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Speaker 3: here at WIBC right now, stealing my car, he's committing

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Speaker 3: a feloning, but it's not a forcible felon. A felonies

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Speaker 3: is a felony committed through the user threat of force.

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Speaker 3: He's not threatening anyone, he's not brandishing a weapon at

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Speaker 3: Indy one, He's just in my car trying to steal

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Speaker 3: my car. That's a felony, but it's not a forcible felon.

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Speaker 3: What if I'm in my car and a guy walks

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Speaker 3: up next to the window of my car and waves

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Speaker 3: a knife in my face and says, get out of

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Speaker 3: the car. I'm taking your car. Well, now that's carjacking.

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Speaker 3: Is carjacking a forcible felony? Yes, it's a felony committed

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Speaker 3: through the user threat of force. It's okay, now we're

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Speaker 3: at two. We've got you reasonably believe that force, including

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Speaker 3: deadly force, is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to

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Speaker 3: you or a third person. Can you defend a third

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Speaker 3: person the same way you defend yourself? Yes, Eli Dickon,

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Speaker 3: who I represented, who stopped the Greenwood Park Mall mass shooting.

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Speaker 3: The shooter didn't even know Eli was there. The shooter

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Speaker 3: was was shooting other innocent people all the way across

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Speaker 3: the food court at the Greenwood Park Mall right here

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Speaker 3: south of Indy. He like drew his gun, shot the

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Speaker 3: bad guy into the threat. He was protecting others from

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Speaker 3: serious bodily injury. Justified, You bet one hundred percent. So

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Speaker 3: I can prevent serious bodily injury to myself or others.

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Speaker 3: I can prevent the commission of a forcible felony. Not

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Speaker 3: any felony has to be a forcible felon. Armed robbery

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Speaker 3: is that a forcible felon? Yes, he's rape. Forcible felming.

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Speaker 3: Of course, the most vile of forcible felonies. Now goes on.

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Speaker 3: From there, then we have what we call our castle doctrine.

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Speaker 3: What's the castle doctrine? Well, I means youing to defend

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Speaker 3: your home. The Indiana castle doctrine is broader than just

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Speaker 3: your home. It says you can use reasonable force, including

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Speaker 3: deadly force, to prevent or terminate very important words, prevent

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Speaker 3: or terminate an unlawful entry into or attack upon your dwelling.

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Speaker 3: What's you're dwelling, Well, that's where you're living at the time.

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Speaker 3: Can be permanent or temporary, movable or fixed, meaning could

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Speaker 3: be my hotel room, but that's where I'm living at

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Speaker 3: the time. Certainly my home, my house, my apartment, it's

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Speaker 3: where I'm living at the time. Now, Indiana's castle doctrine

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Speaker 3: goes beyond that, talks about kurdledge, which, as I've mentioned

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Speaker 3: her own the show before, is a bit of an

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Speaker 3: unknown we'll go into that right now. It also includes

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Speaker 3: your you're occupied motor vehicle. Indiana extends the castle doctrine

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Speaker 3: what you can defend with deadly force to your occupied

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Speaker 3: motor vehicle interesting not germane to the present discussion. And

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Speaker 3: then the last one, the force scenario is you can

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Speaker 3: use reasonable force, including deadly force to prevent the hijacking

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Speaker 3: of an airplane. By the way, that law has been

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Speaker 3: on the books long before nine to eleven. So in

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Speaker 3: Indiana we're talking about Indiana law right now. Those are

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Speaker 3: the four times you can use deadly force. But then

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Speaker 3: there are a whole bunch of I started to say

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Speaker 3: peripheral issues, and they're not peripheral, they're central. They're in

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Speaker 3: critical issues, including if you're cut up in a scenario

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Speaker 3: where you've used force, including deadly force. And listen, if

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Speaker 3: you shoot someone, it's that deadly forced? Yes, yes, one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent of the time. Well what if they don't die,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. Deadly force in Indiana is defined as

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Speaker 3: forced to create a substantial risk of serious bodily injury,

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Speaker 3: and serious bodily injuries defined very broadly to include force

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Speaker 3: that simply includes extreme pain or unconsciousness or impairing a

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Speaker 3: bodily member or organ quote unquote goes on from there.

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Speaker 3: It's very broad. You're shooting someone, I don't care where

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Speaker 3: are you shoot? Shootman a foot, shoot them in a leg?

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Speaker 3: Is that deadly forced? Yes? So again we're talking about

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Speaker 3: to be justified. There are specific scenarios, and who has

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Speaker 3: to prove that in a court case. You get caught up,

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Speaker 3: you shoot someone, you defend your home, you defend your life,

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Speaker 3: you defend yourself from a drunk outside of bar, which

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Speaker 3: is going to be Germane to mister Barry Todd's discussion,

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Speaker 3: we're kind of having join us here in just a bit. Well,

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Speaker 3: first of all, who has to prove that? Do you

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Speaker 3: do you have to prove as the person who's potentially

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Speaker 3: accused of a crime, do you have to prove you

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Speaker 3: acted in self defense? Or does a prosecution the state

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Speaker 3: have to prove you didn't. That varies by state to

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Speaker 3: state to state to state. I can say that, and

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Speaker 3: it's critically important. Burden what's the burden of proof? Goes

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Speaker 3: on from there. These are things that self defense attorneys

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Speaker 3: deal with all the time. Certainly I do as part

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Speaker 3: of my practice. It all becomes a bit of a

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Speaker 3: quackmire and certainly fascinating to discuss and can determine exactly

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Speaker 3: what we talked about earlier, which is whether you're charged

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Speaker 3: with a crime at all. If you are charged with

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Speaker 3: a crime, whether you win or you lose, whether you

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Speaker 3: go to trial, whether you can have the case dismissed

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Speaker 3: before trial, whether you're disputing probable cause or otherwise having

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Speaker 3: evidence suppressed, or whether you win in front of the jury.

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Speaker 3: That's how the progression goes. But knowing the rules of

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Speaker 3: the game and certainly how they can be used against

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Speaker 3: you many times unjustly. It's so critical to discussion. That's

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Speaker 3: why I'm excited about having Barry Todd on the show.

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Speaker 3: We're going to take a break here. At the bottom

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Speaker 3: of the hour we come back. We'll have mister Barry Todd,

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Speaker 3: author of Stand Your Ground, One Man's Self Defense Nightmare.

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Speaker 3: I read it. I just read it over the last

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Speaker 3: couple of days. Fascinating, fascinating book, certainly to end anyone

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Speaker 3: interested in self defense, and me as a self defense attorney,

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Speaker 3: I found it absolutely fascinating and I'm excited to talk

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Speaker 3: to mister Todd. We'll be right back. This is Guy

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Speaker 3: Ralford on the Gun Guys Show on ninety three WYBC.

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Speaker 1: The show about gun rights, gun safety, and responsible gun ownership.

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Speaker 1: With This is the Gun Guy with Guy Ralford on WYPC.

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Speaker 3: And welcome back to the Gun Guy Show here on

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Speaker 3: ninety three WYBC. I thrilled you with us. Say well,

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Speaker 3: let's get right to the phone lines, and on our

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Speaker 3: VP hotline we have mister Barry Todd. And I've been

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Speaker 3: talking about mister Todd here for a while. But first

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Speaker 3: of all, welcome to the Gun Guy Show.

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Speaker 4: Sir, oh, thank you for having me, guys, I appreciate

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Speaker 4: it absolutely.

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Speaker 3: So I read your book and was completely fascinated by

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Speaker 3: your story, especially as someone who's trained in self defense

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Speaker 3: for a long time and someone it was an attorney

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Speaker 3: for forty plus years and defense self defense cases completely

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Speaker 3: fascinating to me. But I just want to start with

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Speaker 3: you're someone who certainly familiar with firearms. Firearms twenty plus

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Speaker 3: years in the military, including as an army ranger, reaching

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Speaker 3: the rank of captain. That certainly led you to be

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Speaker 3: extremely comfortable, certainly with your ability to handle a firearm.

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Speaker 4: Yes, sir, those you know, when you're around firearms your

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Speaker 4: whole life, they become part of you. They're not They're

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Speaker 4: not something that you're afraid of.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So twenty fourteen, you're out to an evening

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Speaker 3: of entertainment, including singing a little karaoke And by the way,

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Speaker 3: I tried my Way by Sinatra one time, as you apparently,

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Speaker 3: and I dropped the ball pretty hard on that. I'm

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Speaker 3: hoping you did a better version of that than I did.

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Speaker 4: But my wife said that's the only song I could

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Speaker 4: ever say.

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Speaker 3: Well, I can't. I can't even sing that one. But

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Speaker 3: but just to describe what led to the encounter that

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Speaker 3: resulted in you feeling the need to involve a firearm.

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Speaker 3: What happened? Just what were the events that evening that

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Speaker 3: caused this whole scenario to unfold?

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Speaker 4: Well, simply guy the uh for your listeners here, Uh,

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Speaker 4: my wife and I were out with four other retired

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Speaker 4: military couples for dinner, drinks, a little bit of dancing.

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Speaker 4: We usually linked up about once a month, we all

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Speaker 4: many of us serve together. And throughout the evening we

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Speaker 4: met this young this young man UH, and he became

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Speaker 4: very aggressive toward the ladies. He ended up threatening me

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Speaker 4: and my wife. Than I was viciously attacked not by

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Speaker 4: one man, but two twice, one of them wielding a knife.

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Speaker 4: And when the police showed up, literally they did zero investigation.

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Speaker 4: They totally skipped a new process and charged me with

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Speaker 4: attempted murder to count evaggravated assault within five or six hours.

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Speaker 4: And there were one hundred and sixty hours worth of

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Speaker 4: video camera videos from sixteen different cameras that they never

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Speaker 4: looked at before they charged me.

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Speaker 3: And we're going to get more into this. And by

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Speaker 3: the way, I hope you have a little time to

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Speaker 3: spend with us because This is going to take certainly

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Speaker 3: more than one segment to kind of pull all the

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Speaker 3: layers off this onion. But you were in the bar,

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Speaker 3: things got a little tense with this guy, even threatening

430
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: inside the bar. He was making gestures, insinuations towards your wife.

431
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 3: At one point you left the bar. I believe, just

432
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 3: go get some chew, right, some Copenhagen or something like

433
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,479
Speaker 3: out of your vehicle. Correct, you left the bar, I

434
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 3: sure did.

435
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 4: He threatened me twice in the bar, and both times

436
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 4: I told him the same thing. I am too old

437
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 4: to get in a bar room fight. This is not happening.

438
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would walk away exactly. So you left to

439
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 3: go to your vehicle just to get some chew. But

440
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 3: on the way back, now, suddenly you're confronted by this guy.

441
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 3: And by the way, what in terms of physicality is

442
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 3: this guy bigger, younger, stronger? How's this guy compared to you?

443
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 3: What are you faced with? Because as I understand it,

444
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 3: he was actually preventing you from going back in the

445
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: bar as you try to re enter to go rejoin

446
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: your wife.

447
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, the pictures you saw in there. He towered

448
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 4: over me. He outweighed me by one hundred pounds. He

449
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 4: was about four or five inches taller than me, and

450
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 4: both both of the guys were so.

451
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: He won't let you back in the bar, and he

452
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 3: at one point he said something I won't use his

453
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 3: language on the radio, but uh, signify find that he

454
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 3: fully planned to spend the rest of evening with your

455
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 3: wife and wasn't going to allow you even back in

456
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: the bar. Where did it go from there?

457
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 4: At that point? That's and he had already assaulted me,

458
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 4: threw me headfirst into cinderblock wall and punched me. At

459
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 4: that point, when he threatened my wife, I said, be advised,

460
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 4: I'm armed.

461
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: Now, when you said you're armed, were you carrying a

462
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 3: gun at that moment?

463
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 4: No, in Arizona, you don't have to.

464
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, you don't have to what.

465
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 4: You don't have to have the gun on you at

466
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 4: that time.

467
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: I understood. So what happened then you said, be advised,

468
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 3: I am armed, even though you didn't actually have a

469
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: gun in your immediate possession. What happened?

470
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 4: Correct? He said, go get your fing gun, and I

471
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 4: said okay, and I proceeded to walk the forty forty

472
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 4: five feet to my vehicle, secured my firearm just the

473
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 4: way the laws of Arizona teach you to do when

474
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 4: you go through their CCW training. I had it down

475
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 4: at my side when I went to re enter the establishment.

476
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 4: He was standing off to the right, right along the

477
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 4: edge of the door, and I stopped short because not

478
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 4: only would my CCW training, but more so of my

479
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 4: military training. You never crossed a danger area exposing your

480
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 4: back to somebody that's already attacked you or that is

481
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 4: threatening you. That's the worst thing in the world. You do.

482
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: Exactly. So, you got your gun in your hand sort

483
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: of down or along your leg, correct, on my right leg, Okay,

484
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: And so what happened Then.

485
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 4: I stopped short of him. I pointed at him, and

486
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: I said, I'm going in there getting my wife and

487
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 4: my belongings, and I'm leaving. Before I could even get

488
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 4: my arm down, he attacked me.

489
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: So he essentially he said, damn the torpedoes to your gun, right,

490
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: didn't much care that you had a gun. I'm assuming

491
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: there were some alcohol involved at this point.

492
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 4: Well, he says he couldn't remember any thing that he

493
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 4: blacked out. Oh so blackout dracts was the only statement

494
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 4: yet he was blackout drunk, he said the last thing

495
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 4: he remembers was playing darks. Well, if you watch all

496
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 4: the videos, he stopped playing darts about forty five minutes

497
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 4: before he attacked me. Wow.

498
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 3: Wow, So he attacked you and he's got a buddy

499
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: there outside the bar with him apparently true too, right,

500
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 3: and it actually attacks you, including with a knife, correct,

501
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 3: So what happened?

502
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 4: And he even admitted to the police that he had

503
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 4: a knife, but he was never charged. And that's because

504
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 4: the police never looked at the videos.

505
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: So all you wanted to do was get back in

506
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 3: the bar, rejoin your wife. You're obviously concerned about your wife.

507
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: She's been threatened by this huge, drunk guy. You're now

508
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 3: in what a fight for your life outside the bar? Correct?

509
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 4: Yes? At that point, yes, When he attacked me the

510
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 4: second time, he fell into the doorway and as I

511
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 4: came up off of him his buddy, I fell forward

512
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: on him my left and he was trying to grab

513
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: hold of my gun hand and finally he let go.

514
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 4: And then when I started to come up, thinking it

515
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 4: was over with his buddy with a knife attacked me

516
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 4: from behind and pulled me down, and then he jumped

517
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 4: me right back on top of me. So that now

518
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 4: they're trying to get the gun from me.

519
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 3: Okay, so you're fighting for the gun. What then happens?

520
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 4: Well, he wasn't very smart. I mean, the guy was

521
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 4: really dumb. He had my forearm and he was squeezing

522
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 4: it with all his strength. He actually broke my arm.

523
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: He squosed it. He squeezed it so hard a caused

524
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 4: a what do they call that a hairline fracture? He

525
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 4: actually broke the bones in my right forearm. And I

526
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 4: just finally looked at him, because at that point I

527
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 4: knew I wasn't gonna let him. Let them have gun.

528
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 4: This guy's got a knife. I'm like, I just looked

529
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 4: at him, dead in his eyes. I said this is

530
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 4: going to suck for both.

531
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: Of us, and literally said that out loud.

532
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 4: Yes, his nose was literally two inches from mine when

533
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 4: I said that to him.

534
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 3: And then what happened?

535
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 4: And then he when he took the three fifty seven

536
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 4: round and his stomach came out of his shoulder. He stood up,

537
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 4: and then he staggered away and fell down in the

538
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 4: middle of a parking lot.

539
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 3: Well, I'll tell you what, Barry. Let's if you don't mind,

540
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 3: and I hope you have more time because we are

541
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: not grazing the surface on this. I need to take

542
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: a break. We're going to come back for a short segment.

543
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 3: I really would like to keep you for a while

544
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: because one, I want to get into the details of

545
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: your book and where people can find this entire story,

546
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 3: but also I want to talk about the entire legal battle.

547
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 3: I really hope you have some more time to stick

548
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: with us here this evening.

549
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 4: I do I can give you, how's about thirty or

550
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 4: forty up to thirty or forty five minutes.

551
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what. It's going to be the best

552
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 3: thirty or forty five minutes we've had here on The

553
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 3: Gun Guy Show for a long damn time. So I'll

554
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 3: tell you what. Let's take a break right now. We'll

555
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 3: be right back with Barry Todd, author of standrew Ground,

556
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 3: one Man's Self Defense Nightmare, when we come back here

557
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 3: on The Gun Guy Show on ninety three WYBC.

558
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: Your rights, your responsibilities, and your guns. This is the

559
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: Gun Guy with Guy Ralford, ninety three WYDC.

560
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: That's Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy Show on ninety

561
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: three WIBC. So Guy here on a VIP hotline. We've

562
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 3: got Barry Todd who's involved in a self defense shooting

563
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 3: you Arizona twenty fourteen. So, Barry, you've just pulled the trigger.

564
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: The guy who'd been attacking you is now hurt. Stood up,

565
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 3: but then keels over. You're hurt. You've got a broken

566
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 3: forearm and various other last rations, contusions and injuries from

567
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 3: having struggled with this big, huge, drunk idiot. Well what

568
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 3: happens then?

569
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 4: That's when my friends actually heard what was going on outside,

570
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: and they all rushed out, and uh the uh the

571
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 4: bouncer at that point was trying to take charge. He

572
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 4: wasn't really a bouncer, more of a I D. Car checker.

573
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 4: He tells him to take My wife tells me go

574
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 4: ahead and let go of the gun. I'm here, my

575
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 4: friends were there. We let the I let go of

576
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 4: the gun. The bouncer uh uh had somebody take it

577
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 4: over unloaded. Then the police. I stood up. She goes

578
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 4: what happened? I said, he wouldn't stop attacking.

579
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: Me, and very and forgive me. We we've got to

580
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 3: go to break to the top of the I was

581
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 3: way late getting into this, but we're gonna we have

582
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 3: to take a break here the top of the hour

583
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: and get some advertising in. When you come back after

584
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 3: this break to the top of the hour, I want

585
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 3: to talk about when you first had any doubt that

586
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: you were completely legally justified and that there was even

587
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 3: a possibility you were actually going to be prosecuted for

588
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 3: having clearly defended yourself with your firearm. And thanks so

589
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: much for your patience for sticking around right now we

590
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 3: got to go into a break top of the hour.

591
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy Show on ninety three WYBC.

592
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of

593
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 1: a free state, the right of the people to keep

594
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: in their arms shall not be infringed. This is the

595
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 1: Second Amendment, and this is the Gun Guy.

596
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 2: Boom boom boom boom bang bang bang bang boom boom boom,

597
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: boom bang.

598
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: Bang bo Guy Ralford on ninety three WYBC, and welcome back.

599
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: For hour number two of the Gun Guys showed here

600
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 3: on ninety three WYBC. I got to tell you that's

601
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 3: going to be the longest break at the top of

602
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 3: an hour that we've ever been through here in the

603
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 3: ten years I've been doing a Gun Guys show, because

604
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 3: we haven't even graised the surface of the story of

605
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: Barry Todd, author of standrew Ground One Man's self defense Nightmare.

606
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: And all I wanted to do is get it at

607
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 3: a substance. And like I said, we've just barely touched

608
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 3: on it. But Barry's on the line. And so, just

609
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: to recount for anybody just joining us, violent encounter. A huge, drunk,

610
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: aggressive person is trying to prevent Barry from just re

611
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 3: entering the restaurant where you've just been in the evening

612
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: with his family, his his wife and friends, threatens him,

613
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 3: attacks him. Burry at one point gets his gun from

614
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 3: the vehicle, comes back. There's a struggle over the gun,

615
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 3: and the shot has discharged Barry's attacker. And by the way,

616
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 3: another guy joined the like with a knife, also attacking Barry,

617
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: broke Barry's arm, caused various other injuries. Now the bad

618
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 3: guy is down and Barry. I hope I that's a

619
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: brief summary, But I hope I did that accurately. What

620
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: happens next? When's the first indication that you thought you

621
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 3: might actually have an illegal jeopardy arising from out of this?

622
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 4: Well? I knew the law well enough that I knew

623
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 4: I was going to have to go down and be questioned,

624
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 4: so I didn't really think anything of it. They did

625
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 4: handcuff me immediately. They put me in the back of

626
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 4: a patrol car. Then they took me down and put

627
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 4: me in an interview room. Everybody was very pleasant and

628
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 4: it wasn't no big deal. But then when I started

629
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 4: realizing there was going to be trouble was after the

630
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 4: second interview. At first, I wasn't going to say anything

631
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 4: because that's what everybody says to do. But whenever I

632
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 4: had talked to the police before, you know, if you

633
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 4: knew you were in the right, you know they usually

634
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 4: reasonable people.

635
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about that, because reading your book, at

636
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 3: one point you very specifically said, listen, I'm not saying anything.

637
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 3: This is to the police without my attorney president And

638
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 3: they said, okay, interview's over. You thought about that for

639
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: a while, and then you said, now tell you what.

640
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 3: I've got a clear story to tell and then decided

641
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 3: to make a statement without an attorney present. Is that

642
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 3: the way that went?

643
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I knew the self defense laws. I've been

644
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 4: trained in Arizona. I've been with my wife and I

645
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 4: during that time period. We practice all the time, and

646
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,959
Speaker 4: we'd go to other take additional training, and I knew

647
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 4: the laws. And now, unfortunately, what we didn't find out

648
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 4: till much later was the police and the prosecutors didn't

649
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 4: know the newer Arizona laws that have been passed in

650
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 4: the past over the past decade prior to my shooting.

651
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 3: Which you actually know more about than they did because

652
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 3: of your CCW class.

653
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 4: Correct. Correct. As a matter of fact, I even knew

654
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 4: more than my attorney did.

655
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I want to talk about that too, because

656
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 3: that hit me like a ton of bricks when I

657
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 3: read that in your book. But I want to talk

658
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 3: about I want to focus on that because I teach

659
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 3: a class on the legal issues around the use of

660
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: force and self defense. I've been teaching it for a

661
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 3: long long time, and I actually have a slide that

662
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 3: I put up and it says aftermath, and then the

663
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 3: slide after that says, I'd be willing to cooperate fully

664
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 3: and give you a complete statement after my attorney is

665
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: present and I've had a chance to calm down, and

666
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 3: people will challenge me on that and say, hold on,

667
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 3: if I didn't do anything wrong, why should I be

668
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: concerned about telling the police what happened? Because I know

669
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 3: I'm in the right. I know what I did was legal.

670
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: Looking back, where you first said nope, I'm not going

671
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 3: to say anything without my attorney president, then you made

672
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 3: a decision to make a statement. Is there anything about

673
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 3: that you do differently today?

674
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 4: I probably wouldn't have made a statement, but I don't

675
00:40:58,239 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 4: think it would have mattered anyway.

676
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 3: Okay, but you think because the prosecutors were going to

677
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: end up charging you anyway.

678
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 4: Well, the police made the decision that night. And as

679
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 4: you read and when you read the book from the

680
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 4: preliminary hearing, the police officer, the lead detective, finally admitted

681
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 4: to it. After months, actually two years of saying no,

682
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 4: he did not have any predetermined notion. My attorney, being

683
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 4: a brilliant man he was finally backed him into the

684
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 4: corner and got him to admit on the stand that

685
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 4: yes he did.

686
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's let's and I kind of jumped into

687
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: the one issue about making a statement or not just

688
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,720
Speaker 3: because it's something that I teach. But so the police

689
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 3: made the decision to write this up essentially and to

690
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 3: initiate charges against you. And what happened from that point

691
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 3: going forward?

692
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 4: Do you want to know about that night when they

693
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 4: charged me, yeah, or do you want me to go forward?

694
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 3: What happened? So when did you realize you were actually

695
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 3: being charge with the crome?

696
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 4: Well, so I went back into the interview and we

697
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 4: sat down. I told him everything that happened, and then

698
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 4: he walked out. They brought me a cup of coffee

699
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 4: and he walked out. He came back in probably ten

700
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 4: fifteen minutes later. He said, read this and sign it.

701
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 4: And I said, I shared with you earlier, Detective, I

702
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 4: don't have my glasses on me. What is it? He says,

703
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 4: it's a chart sheet and I said a chart sheet

704
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 4: for what? And that's when he said attempted murder to

705
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 4: count evaggerated assault, And I said, I told you of everything.

706
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 4: I told you it was strictly self defense. His exact

707
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 4: words to me were, we have the whole thing on video.

708
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 4: I said, great, have you looked at the video? And

709
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 4: his exact words back to me were not yet.

710
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 3: And charges and they haven't even looked at the video yet?

711
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. And I looked at him, and my old

712
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 4: ranger instructor days from the nineteen eighties came out and

713
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 4: I proceeded to literally verbally abuse his lack of intelligence.

714
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I imagine there were a couple of f bombs

715
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 3: in there somewhere.

716
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 4: There were. Yeah. I started it out was, Oh, you're

717
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 4: a real intelligent life form. The oxygen is just flowing

718
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 4: to your brain and it just continued to flow from there.

719
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 3: And listen and we can chuckle about that. But this

720
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 3: is the beginning of what a two year nightmare.

721
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, twenty six months and seventeen days. Yeah.

722
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 3: And so just on the criminal side, yeah, well exactly,

723
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 3: and we'll talk more about that too. So you're charged

724
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 3: with a crime, and as you found out later, the

725
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 3: whole matter was actually submitted to a grand jury there

726
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 3: in Arizona.

727
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 4: Correct, Yeah, sure was six days after the incident. It

728
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 4: was submitted to a grand jury. And again they never

729
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 4: showed the video. They at that point, they hadn't even

730
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 4: reviewed the video.

731
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,320
Speaker 3: And people need to understand, And I explained this to

732
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: people all the time, and I've had many cases over

733
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 3: the four decades i've been an attorney where the grand

734
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 3: jury is involved. People don't understand that the grand jury

735
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 3: only hears one side of the story. Now, the prosecutors,

736
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 3: under some ethical responsibilities, are supposed to present both evidence

737
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 3: of guilt as well as evidence suggesting innocence. But prosecutors

738
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 3: don't generally do that in my experience. They tend to

739
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 3: present a completely one sided story, and the grand jury

740
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: then they don't decide guilt or innocence, but they decide

741
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 3: whether there was probable cause to pursue criminal charges against you.

742
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 3: And that became a real focus of your case, didn't it.

743
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 4: Oh? It did. It became the total focus of it.

744
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 4: It was unbelievable, and you hit the nail on the

745
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 4: head guy. The people don't realize that a prosecutor, when

746
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 4: he first takes up a case, before he takes it

747
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 4: to a grand jury. Technically the legal term for it

748
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 4: of his title is called minister of justice. All right,

749
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 4: that's supposed to be his title. He's supposed to be

750
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 4: wearing an entirely different hat than the prosecutor hat. He's

751
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 4: supposed to look at all the evidence, present all the

752
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 4: evidence to the grand jury fully whether it whether it

753
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 4: exonerates the potential person to be charged, or whether or

754
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 4: not done. And he's supposed to present everything and then

755
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 4: let the chips fall where they may. What we and

756
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 4: that's why my attorney, the brilliant man, he was he

757
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,439
Speaker 4: passed away in at the end of twenty twenty three,

758
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 4: but he was the number two chair on the Miranda

759
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 4: rights case that went through the Supreme Court. Brilliant man,

760
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 4: Michael Kimmer. And he goes, well, Berry, our goal is

761
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 4: to not Ford to go to trial. So they didn't

762
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 4: we know they had the videos, they didn't show it.

763
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 4: So the first thing we're going to do is say

764
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 4: send it back to the grand jury. And so he

765
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 4: did that and it worked, and so the prosecution because

766
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 4: he didn't even show he didn't even present all any

767
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 4: He presents the basic affirmative defense self defense law. And

768
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 4: I don't know if your listeners know the difference. I

769
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 4: heard you talking earlier, the difference between affirmative defense and

770
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 4: justification defense.

771
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was saying. One of the preliminary issues in

772
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 3: self defense, always depending on jurisdiction you're in, is who

773
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: has the burden of proof? In other words, is it

774
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,959
Speaker 3: an affirmative defense where the defendant has to a person

775
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: being investigated has to prove they did act in self defense,

776
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 3: or is it a matter of what we call the

777
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: state's prima fagere case, meaning they have to prove you

778
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 3: didn't act in self defense. And that's fundamentally important. And

779
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 3: you actually on that point, because you've been through your

780
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 3: CCW class, actually had to educate your own attorney on that.

781
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 4: Oh exactly, I did because the law that changed ten

782
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 4: years earlier before my case happened, the actual in Arizona.

783
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,439
Speaker 4: For your listeners, this is now a justification defense state.

784
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 4: The moment anybody who had to use a weapon in

785
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 4: any type of incident, if the moment they say it

786
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 4: was self defense by Arizona law, they're not supposed to

787
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 4: charge you. They are supposed to prove that. They're not

788
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 4: supposed to charge you until the prosecution proves that it

789
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 4: wasn't self defense.

790
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 3: In terms of the grand jury in this case making

791
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 3: that determination correct.

792
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 4: Yes, they're not exactly they're not even supposed to charge you.

793
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 4: Because what you're saying when you call it, when you

794
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 4: do that for your listeners, you're saying, yes, I did

795
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 4: shoot him. You're not denying that you didn't shoot the person.

796
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 4: What you're doing, though, is saying I was justified in

797
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 4: accordance with the laws of the state of Arizona in

798
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 4: my case.

799
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and listen, Barry, we have to take one more break.

800
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 3: Can you can you come back with for one more segment,

801
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 3: because there's so much more I want to talk to

802
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 3: you about I so much. I appreciate you indulging us

803
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 3: with your time, and.

804
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 4: I want to plug my book real quick before you

805
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 4: let me go and groundbook dot com. You can get

806
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 4: it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble or Durrance Publishing.

807
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely, but I want you to come back for one

808
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 3: more segment if you have the time, because I really

809
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 3: had more to talk to you about. All right, and

810
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:32,959
Speaker 3: we'll talk again about where people can find your book.

811
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: Right now, we're taking a quick break, and says Guy

812
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 3: Ralford on The Gun Guy Show on ninety three WIBC.

813
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 1: Now you've got a gun guy Guy Reldrick WYPC.

814
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 3: And welcome back. We're back with Barry Todd, author of

815
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 3: Stan Ground one Man's Self Defense Nightmare. So Barry, okay,

816
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 3: So the prosecutor submits a completely one sided version of

817
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 3: the case to the grand jury and doesn't even show that.

818
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: This is mind boggling to me as a defense attorney,

819
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 3: that they would submit grand jury evidence and not even

820
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 3: give them the video of the shooting. Oh yeah, it

821
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 3: just blew our minds much much less the video of

822
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 3: everything going on in the bar, including this guy confronting you,

823
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 3: threatening you verbally and physically assaulting you, all before the

824
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 3: actual events that led to him getting shot. How's the

825
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 3: grand jury supposed to make a decision on probable cause

826
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,240
Speaker 3: without seeing both sides of the story?

827
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 4: Correct? That's exactly right, and that's why the first time

828
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 4: he agreed to it. And we even took the videos

829
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 4: that we received from the police and turned them over

830
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 4: to one of the FBI's tops video forensics experts, Brian Newmeister.

831
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 4: He took all the cameras that referenced of the sixteen,

832
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 4: there were four of them that picked up the entire

833
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 4: incident inside and outside the establishment, and he went ahead

834
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 4: and ran them and spliced them together like a movie.

835
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 4: It's unbelievable. And we gave that to him before the

836
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 4: second grand jury, the prosecutor. Yeah, we gave it to

837
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:32,240
Speaker 4: the prosecutor before the second grand jury, and he still

838
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 4: didn't show at all.

839
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 3: And at this point you have to wonder, I mean, yeah,

840
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 3: this guy's role in the grand jury proceeding is supposed

841
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 3: to be the Minister of Justice, right, yep. Obviously he

842
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 3: was acting as anything, But what do you think what

843
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 3: do you think the agenda was here? Do you think

844
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 3: this guy just has political ambitions and he thought it

845
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 3: would help him to try to put you in jail,

846
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 3: or what do you think the motivation was.

847
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 4: Well, whenever you take somebody and you you before where

848
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 4: you've looked at the most important evidence, and you plaster

849
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 4: them all over the Southwestern United States newspapers and everything else,

850
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 4: some crazy retired ranger comes into a bar and shoots

851
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 4: a guy in the head. I mean, it was it

852
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 4: was horrible. I mean they don't want to let it

853
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 4: go because they didn't have egg on their face, but

854
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 4: that's exactly what happened.

855
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 3: And you know the role of a prosecutor, and I've

856
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 3: heard many many prosecutors over a lot of years say

857
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 3: this in open court that listen, my job is just

858
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 3: not to prove guilt. My job is resent truth and

859
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 3: throughout the whole judicial proceeding. And that's supposed to give

860
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 3: them an air of credibility. But that's only if it's true,

861
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 3: and that's only if they act this way. And the

862
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: thing that struck me that the two things that just

863
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: leapt out of me as someone who's done this for

864
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 3: a long time, is when when a you, because you'd

865
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 3: learned Arizona law through your your concealed carry class, had

866
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 3: to update your lawyer on who actually had the burden

867
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 3: of proof of proving or disproving self defense. But the

868
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 3: second one was, and this just screamed at me, when

869
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 3: when you your lawyer and the prosecutor are arguing over

870
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 3: what should or shouldn't have been presented to the grand jury,

871
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 3: and the prosecutor actually said it came out of his

872
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 3: mouth over his lips. He said, I don't care what

873
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 3: the law says.

874
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 4: That's correct. And we got that on We got that

875
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 4: on an actual recording.

876
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 3: How you're supposed to be the minister of truth, minister

877
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 3: of justice if you don't actually care what the controlling

878
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 3: law of the jurisdiction says. That That hit me like

879
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 3: a ton of bricks.

880
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and that's what one of the people that

881
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 4: was in the room even wrote an Affidavid saying that's

882
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 4: what he heard. Even then we had it on the recording.

883
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 4: It's unbelievable. It is. He told my attorney, I don't

884
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 4: care if he was following the law, he could have

885
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 4: come back with a gun up is but yeah.

886
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, no, I remember that so how much, and listen,

887
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 3: it always breaks my heart. And I'll be talking to

888
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,879
Speaker 3: my own clients and I'll say, listen, this is such

889
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 3: an incredibly unfair process because the rest of us, the

890
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:17,479
Speaker 3: whole criminal justice system, prosecutors, grandeurors, maybe a criminal jury

891
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 3: at some point if it goes to trial, your defense team,

892
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 3: your investigators, everybody else has weeks, months, years to dissect

893
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 3: everything that happened in the matter of a few minutes.

894
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 3: And you had to make instantaneous decisions, sometimes in a millisecond,

895
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 3: including whether to pull a trigger or not. And it's

896
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 3: so unfair because everyone, everybody else gets to analyze this

897
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 3: in retrospect with the benefit of hindsight. You had to

898
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 3: make the decision in an instant and realizing that of course,

899
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 3: looking back on it, for instance, how big of a

900
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 3: deal was it. How big of a deal did the

901
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 3: prosecutor make it that when you you left the bar

902
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 3: the first time, you didn't have your gun in your

903
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 3: immediate possession, then having a confrontation with this drunken, huge

904
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 3: idiot at the entrance to the bar where you just

905
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 3: tried to go in and rejoin your wife, that you

906
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: actually then went to your vehicle and retrieved your gun

907
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 3: and came back. Did the prosecutor make them off? Did

908
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 3: he make a big deal out of that?

909
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, he sure did. He hated that he could

910
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 4: have he could have walked down the road. Well, that

911
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 4: walk would have been a quarter to a half a

912
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 4: mile on a dirt road or or a two lane

913
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 4: road with no sidewalks, forty five miles an hour, no

914
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 4: street lights, to a gas station way down there to

915
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 4: call my wife because my cell phone and everything was

916
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:44,479
Speaker 4: inside my wallet. And also my wife was a dd

917
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 4: that night. She wasn't drinking right, And that's that's how

918
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 4: we operate a lot of times. So that was it

919
00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 4: was just it's abhorred. How you the whole system has

920
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 4: been turned upside down, And to be honest with the guy,

921
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 4: I think it's happened over the past forty fifty years.

922
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 4: I'll tell you a story. In nineteen sixty six, my

923
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 4: brother was eight years old. His dad woke him up

924
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 4: at two o'clock in the morning outside Fort Bragg, North Carolina,

925
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 4: said come out here on the porch, and there it

926
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 4: was a dead guy on the porch there, and I

927
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 4: had a big bullet hole in his chest and he said,

928
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 4: grab that hose over there and wash the blood off

929
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 4: the porch. Griff comes up the driveway, walks up on

930
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 4: the porch and goes, what do we have here? And

931
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 4: Ralph's dad said to him, goes, hey, ask him and

932
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 4: pointed to the dead band. He goes, I can't, he's dead.

933
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 4: He goes, exactly. So everything I want to tell you

934
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,760
Speaker 4: that's happened is what happened. Don't try to add anything

935
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 4: to it or create a crime that doesn't exist. That

936
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 4: man was breaking into my house. I have my seven

937
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 4: children and my wife in here, and I put two

938
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 4: holes in his chest. Any questions and that was the

939
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 4: end of that. That was the end of it. But

940
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 4: you do that nowadays, and all of a sudden they

941
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 4: have all this stuff, and then they put you through

942
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:11,879
Speaker 4: this ringer called pre trial services. You love this one guy,

943
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 4: pre trial services for your listeners out there. That's probation. Okay.

944
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 4: They took away my guns, they took away my alcohol.

945
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 3: Being convicted of anything, this is all pending with your

946
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 3: case pending.

947
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 4: Never been convicted of anything in my life in a

948
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 4: criminal trial, and no felony is nothing. And outside of

949
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 4: some traffic tickets, they turn around and I have to

950
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 4: get permission to travel. I'm the CEO of a national company.

951
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 4: My wife owned a real estate business, and so I

952
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 4: couldn't do anything. I had to ask permission to go

953
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 4: to my father's eightieth birthday, unbelievable. And I had to

954
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 4: ask permission to go to my own daughter's wedding. So

955
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 4: and then they turn around and they put you on

956
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 4: a every thirty days, they want to check out, give

957
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 4: you an unannounced your analysis and blood test. What. I'm

958
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 4: not a druggie. I've never had these issues. And then

959
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 4: the biggest thing is you got to go in every

960
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 4: two weeks and have sit in front of some new

961
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 4: probation officer to the probation office and they give you

962
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 4: the newest guy and he tries to cycle analyze you.

963
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 4: I'm a decorated disabled veteran, I own a national company,

964
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 4: all right, I've seen things that could make a billy

965
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 4: goat fuke, And You're going to come in here and

966
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,959
Speaker 4: try to cycle analyze me to see how I'm doing.

967
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 4: It's absurd.

968
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 3: And I want to reemphasize this is while your case

969
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 3: is spending, you haven't been convicted of anything. They're treating

970
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 3: you like you're on probation after conviction for a serious crime.

971
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 3: Well listen, lets so you had, even though you had

972
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 3: to do some education or early on, you had obviously

973
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 3: a very very good attorney. And he ends up actually

974
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 3: being able to challenge the grand jury's determination of probable

975
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 3: cause and what's called a preliminary hearing, and that it's

976
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 3: a little different procedure than we have here in Indiana,

977
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 3: but out there in Arizona, and it was able to

978
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 3: get the judge to make an independent determination of probable cause.

979
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 3: That it's huge because that would if you win on

980
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 3: this would result the dismissal of the charges and you

981
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 3: don't have to actually go to trial where you're the

982
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 3: remainder of your life is in the hands of six

983
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 3: or twelve people who are going to determine guild or innocence,

984
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 3: and the judge, by the grace of God and through

985
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 3: good lawyering, and because it was true and substantiated by

986
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 3: video and all the other evidence, judge determines there never

987
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 3: should have been a determination of probable cause and dismisses

988
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,919
Speaker 3: the case against you. So that's the happy part, correct, Yeah,

989
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 3: it is.

990
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 4: But going back to that, the whole point of the

991
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 4: matter is that the judge literally after the third grand jury,

992
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 4: he got so frustrated with the prosecutor not showing the

993
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 4: videos to the grand juries, he actually went and looked

994
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 4: at the video and made a finding of fact in

995
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 4: a case before it ever went to trial. Wow. And

996
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 4: my attorney, who was, as I shared earlier, Michael Kimer

997
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 4: at that point, had fifty years of a criminal defense experience.

998
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 4: He said to me, Barry, he goes, in my fifty

999
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 4: years are practicing law, I've never seen a judge do that.

1000
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 4: He goes. That was unbelievable. And let me ask you,

1001
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 4: have you ever seen a judge make a finding a

1002
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:41,919
Speaker 4: fact before the case goes to trial.

1003
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 3: No, no, not less as a proceeding that specifically allows

1004
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 3: him to do so, which that didn't do. So no,

1005
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 3: I agree with that completely. Well, listen, and I don't

1006
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 3: want to ask any too personal information here, but you won.

1007
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 3: That's the great news. And you made some allusions to

1008
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 3: this in your book. I mean, just the retainer for

1009
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 3: your attorney was one hundred thousand dollars. You had to

1010
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 3: spend ten thousand dollars on a retainer for your investigator

1011
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 3: that you had in this case, which yielded great benefits.

1012
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 3: But if you're comfortable answering this question, you were innocent,

1013
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 3: Jessea Truman. You should have never even been charged because

1014
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 3: there was no probable cost because the prosecution couldn't rebut

1015
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 3: your claim of self defense with any competent evidence. But

1016
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 3: you still spent what a couple hundred thousand.

1017
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 4: Dollars closer to four hundred thousand on the personal side,

1018
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 4: and then through my business. It took me another quarter

1019
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 4: from Meion to clear my name because see, folks, let

1020
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 4: me your listeners out there, you are guilty until proven innocent.

1021
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 4: I'm own a national financial advisory firm that the moment

1022
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 4: I was arrested, it went on every single disclosure for

1023
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 4: every business associate, for every client or everything. It didn't

1024
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,240
Speaker 4: have anything to do with my with my business, but

1025
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 4: it had to go on there. And even after I

1026
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 4: was and it never went to trial, the case was dismissed,

1027
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 4: I had to keep it on there just the fact

1028
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 4: that I was charged. It took me another five years

1029
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 4: to get the record sealed, get it off the FBI

1030
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 4: databases and all the other police databases throughout the country,

1031
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 4: because you have to do those individually. That's just not

1032
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 4: a one happenstats and that takes time, and you have

1033
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 4: to get a judge to order it, to seal the record,

1034
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,919
Speaker 4: and then to get it off of all those disclosures.

1035
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 4: It was an absolute nightmare, especially when you have people

1036
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 4: like the State of Florida. State of Florida, because we

1037
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 4: were licensed in Florida, says, yeah, we want you to

1038
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 4: go down to the court and get us a copy

1039
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 4: of every single court document in your case certified. All right,

1040
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 4: let me tell you something. It costs like four dollars

1041
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 4: per page of certification and we had over twenty five

1042
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 4: hundred gigabytes. Really, the amount of dollars that we spent

1043
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 4: on this is astronomical. And the lessons I learned. Number One,

1044
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 4: know the laws in the state where you're carrying, and

1045
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 4: my wife and I were licensed in about forty one states,

1046
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 4: and as soon as you cross there, get an app

1047
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 4: on your phone so you know it. Number two, carry

1048
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 4: the insurance, carry good self defense insurance. Number three, don't

1049
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 4: talk to the police. Don't give it to them. I

1050
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 4: don't think it really hurt me. But then again, just

1051
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 4: follow what the lawyers tell you. You don't say nothing

1052
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 4: without your lawyer. There and then number four, and this

1053
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 4: is the most important. Remember the attorneys, the private eyes,

1054
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 4: the expert witnesses, they work for you, all right. You're

1055
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 4: the one right in the check no matter you know,

1056
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 4: they're going to give you their opinion that you do

1057
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 4: not always have to take it, and you have to

1058
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 4: check their work and hold them accountable. And if they

1059
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 4: have a problem with that, then you probably need to

1060
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:07,919
Speaker 4: fire them in the first place.

1061
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 3: I love that as somebody who could be fired if

1062
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 3: somebody follows that advice. I still love that advice because

1063
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 3: I'm one to stand behind my representation of any client,

1064
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 3: and any competent lawyer is going to feel the same way.

1065
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 3: So I love that, absolutely, absolutely love that advice. I'll

1066
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 3: tell you what, Barry, We've gone way past the bottom

1067
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 3: of the hour. Where can people find your book? I

1068
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 3: read it, I was fascinated by it, and I'm somebody

1069
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 3: who does this for a living, both on the training

1070
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 3: on self defense as well as as a criminal defense

1071
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 3: attorney who handle self defense cases. It was fascinating to

1072
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 3: me as a quick read. I loved every minute of

1073
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 3: reading it. Where can people find it?

1074
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 4: All right? They can go to our website Stand Your

1075
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 4: Groundbook Dot com and on there you can go to

1076
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 4: you can order it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble or

1077
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 4: Dorms Publishing and folks out there, this money's not going

1078
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 4: back into my pocket. All the proceeds are going into

1079
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 4: foundation that my wife and my legal team and some

1080
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 4: other law enforcement experts have helped us establish so we

1081
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 4: can help others who don't have the money. I was

1082
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 4: blessed because my wife and I have been blessed by

1083
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 4: our Lord Jesus with gifts and being financially successful. I

1084
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 4: was blessed in that way. But how many people aren't

1085
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 4: out there? Are not? I know tons of people across

1086
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 4: the country that aren't, and nobody wants to come in

1087
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 4: and help them with those resources to be able to

1088
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 4: have them. Yeah, they want to all help them afterwards

1089
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 4: after they found the evidence, so that way they consume

1090
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 4: and get a lot of money, but not a lot

1091
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 4: of them want to just come in and say, Okay,

1092
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 4: we're going to give money to your defense team.

1093
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 3: Quick question before we let you go. Were there any

1094
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 3: repercussions to this prosecutor? Was this the pross we're ever

1095
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 3: disciplined in any way? No, and obviously that should have

1096
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 3: happened Lastly, I lied one more question. We have a

1097
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 3: concerned about this person who was shot after attacking you,

1098
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 3: and you justifiably shot him. Any worries about him suing

1099
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 3: you for civil damages? For the interest?

1100
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 4: So he did?

1101
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 3: Oh he did?

1102
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 4: Oh he did five weeks after he was in the hospital.

1103
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 4: I didn't get into that in the book because I

1104
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 4: wanted to focus on the criminal. I think he did.

1105
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 4: Oh he dropped the lawsuit. But that's why you carry

1106
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 4: your homeowner's insurance, an auto insurance, or carry insurance. Yeah,

1107
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 4: you remember, folks out there. I own a national financial

1108
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 4: advisory firm. Your home covers you anywhere in the world

1109
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 4: for anything that you do except operating a vehicle. And

1110
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,120
Speaker 4: that's when your auto insurance comes in. And if you

1111
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 4: want additional liability coverage like I had, I had an

1112
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 4: umbrella that takes the liability for my owners of my

1113
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 4: homeowners of my auto and takes it above that I

1114
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 4: got you.

1115
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 3: Listen, we need to leave it there, sir. I took

1116
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:58,919
Speaker 3: way more of your time than I said I would,

1117
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 3: but this is a fascinating story. I absolutely commend your

1118
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 3: book to people. It's called Standred Ground. One Man Self

1119
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 3: Defense Nightmare author Barry Todd findal on Amazon, finding it

1120
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 3: at standred Ground, the website that Barry mentioned. Right now,

1121
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 3: I gotta let you go. Thank you, sir so much

1122
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 3: for sharing your story with us here on The Gun

1123
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 3: Guy Show.

1124
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 4: God bless you and have a great weekend you too, sir.

1125
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 3: Right now we're taking a break. Guy Ralford on The

1126
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 3: Gun Guy Show on ninety three WYBC.

1127
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: He's a Second Amendment Attorney, he's an NRA A certified

1128
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 1: Firearms instructor.

1129
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 4: He's the Gun Guy.

1130
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 1: Guy Ralford on ninety three WYPC.

1131
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:52,479
Speaker 3: And welcome look back. Thanks so much to Barry Todd,

1132
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 3: a retired Army ranger and author of the book standrew Ground,

1133
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 3: One Man's Self Defense Nightmare. We mentioned this during our segments,

1134
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 3: but where you can find that go to Stand your

1135
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 3: groundbook dot com. Just Stand your Ground book dot com.

1136
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 3: I've read it and the interview we did, and we

1137
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 3: went longer than I necessarily planned, and we still barely

1138
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:19,920
Speaker 3: scratch the surface of what a nightmare this was for

1139
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 3: this gentleman. And it's near and dear to my heart

1140
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 3: because of how long I've been involved in self defense

1141
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 3: and training self defense but also defending people. This was

1142
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 3: a travesty, but not. I can't say it's rare. I

1143
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 3: can't say that it's anything. Well, I can't say it's rare.

1144
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 3: Let me praise it that way. I mean, I see

1145
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 3: miscarriages all the time. There are prosecutors out there who

1146
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 3: don't understand the law. There are prosecutors who, apparently, as

1147
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 3: his felt, don't care. Literally said where there were witnesses,

1148
01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 3: I heard him say it. A prosecutor said I don't

1149
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 3: care what the law says and wanted to put the

1150
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,520
Speaker 3: gentleman in prison even though the law of the State

1151
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 3: of Arizona said he was not guilty. I'll tell you

1152
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 3: what we need to go ahead and get right back

1153
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 3: into a break. It says, of how long I went

1154
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 3: on that segment again, it's stand your ground book dot com.

1155
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:18,560
Speaker 3: Check that out. We'll come back. We'll wrap up this

1156
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 3: edition of The Gun Guy Show. If you're on hold,

1157
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 3: forgive me, please call back next week. We went so

1158
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 3: long with mister Todd's interview that we're not going to

1159
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:29,320
Speaker 3: have time to go to the phone lines when we

1160
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 3: come back. But I'll wrap up this segment with some

1161
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 3: additional thoughts on the lessons learned from Barry Todd's experience.

1162
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 3: Right now, we're taking a break. Guy Ralford on The

1163
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 3: Gun Guy Show on ninety three WYBC.

1164
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:57,799
Speaker 1: He's a Second Amendment attorney, he's an NRA certified firearms instructor.

1165
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 1: He's this gun guy, the guy l FORYPC and welcome back.

1166
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,519
Speaker 3: I'll tell you thanks again to Barry Todd who joined us.

1167
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 3: That's right in my wheelhouse here. That's it's right dead

1168
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 3: center of what we find important, what we think it's

1169
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 3: critical to communicate on here on The Gun Guy Show,

1170
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 3: and his story is just so important. One word about insurance.

1171
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 3: Mister Todd talked about having an umbrella policy through his

1172
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 3: business to protect him, protected him against different layers of liability.

1173
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,639
Speaker 3: I will tell you that most homeowners insurance, which he mentioned,

1174
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 3: does not cover you for any quote unquote intentional act.

1175
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 3: And if you're accused of a crime, and it's actually

1176
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,799
Speaker 3: there are limitations and virtually every state prohibits insurance companies,

1177
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 3: including homeowners insurance companies, from insuring against criminal acts. So

1178
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 3: if you're accused of a crime, there are an awful

1179
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 3: lot of homeowners and insurance policies out there. They will

1180
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 3: either say, well, that was an intentional act, which is excluded,

1181
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 3: or it was a criminal act, which is excluded, and

1182
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 3: you don't have any coverage. Now it sounded like things

1183
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:10,639
Speaker 3: may have worked out a little better on that issue,

1184
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 3: but insurance is a contract. Insurance covers what the contract

1185
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 3: says it covers, and in my experience, if there's a

1186
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 3: self defense scenario that unfolds on your property, then you

1187
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 3: have an argument it's covered, but you'll get it a

1188
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:31,639
Speaker 3: what's called a reservation of rights letter that says, well,

1189
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 3: if ultimately it is determined that what you did was

1190
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 3: a intentional and be not justified, then you're not covered

1191
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:41,719
Speaker 3: for that in terms of your expenses, your attorney's fees,

1192
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 3: expert witnesses, all that kinds of things. So that's one

1193
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 3: of the reasons, for instance, that I have separate carry

1194
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,880
Speaker 3: insurance and mine is through USCCA. There are several other

1195
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 3: programs out there that specifically designed to cover you, whether

1196
01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 3: you're accused of a crime or whether it's civil liability

1197
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 3: that is a private suit. And you heard Barry Todd

1198
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 3: say it was one of the last questions I asked him,

1199
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:08,680
Speaker 3: did this guy actually think about sooning you? He said, oh,

1200
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:12,759
Speaker 3: he did. You know, days are barely weeks after the incident,

1201
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 3: this guy filed a civil lawsuits. So now you've got

1202
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 3: to worry about going to prison. You also got to

1203
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:22,759
Speaker 3: get worried about losing millions of dollars in a civil lawsuit.

1204
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 3: That's why I like insurance that covers both of those. Now,

1205
01:11:26,280 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 3: I mean full disclosure. USCACA several years ago hired me

1206
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 3: to teach their self defense seminars. They paid me a

1207
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 3: little bit of money, not very much, and haven't done

1208
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 3: so in gosh, probably three or four years now. But

1209
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:41,000
Speaker 3: I did have that financial relationship there at one point,

1210
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 3: so I want to disclose that to you so he

1211
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 3: can take that for what it's worth. But since then,

1212
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:49,559
Speaker 3: I just pay them money every month. It's not much,

1213
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 3: It's like twenty five bucks a month. But I have

1214
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 3: insurance that covers me if I use my gun or

1215
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 3: otherwise defend myself or defend another person and to he

1216
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:01,560
Speaker 3: get either prosecuted or suit. So and again I'm not

1217
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 3: necessarily pitching USCCA. You can decide for yourself. There are

1218
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 3: many other programs. There are programs like US Law Shield

1219
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 3: and Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network and First Call Defense.

1220
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 3: There are several others, So make your own decision on that.

1221
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 3: But it really did strike me as I read Barry

1222
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:27,960
Speaker 3: Todd's book that one of the primary lessons. You know,

1223
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 3: I see people out there on the internet, on the

1224
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 3: gun related forums, and everybody, everybody you know, wants to

1225
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 3: be rambo. Everybody wants to be a tough guy or girl,

1226
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,599
Speaker 3: and and a lot of times people seem very cavalier,

1227
01:12:42,960 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 3: even enthusiastic about using their gun or using force, or

1228
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 3: defending themselves with deadly force. And let me tell you,

1229
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 3: every person I've defended a lot over the years, many

1230
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 3: many people, including many of I'm represented, several I'm representing

1231
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:58,680
Speaker 3: right now, and every one of them will tell you

1232
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 3: it's something that they would avoid if they had it

1233
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,639
Speaker 3: to do over again, that they simply wouldn't have gone there. Now,

1234
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 3: does that mean you shouldn't defend yourself if it's warranted.

1235
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 3: Absolutely not. I carry a gun every day. Why do

1236
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 3: I carry my gun because I think I might have

1237
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 3: to use it if I have to save my own life,

1238
01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 3: save another innocent life, save one certainly my family. Oh

1239
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:19,040
Speaker 3: hell yeah, I'm going there, and I'll do it without reservation.

1240
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:23,000
Speaker 3: At the same time, if it's possible to avoid it, boy,

1241
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 3: I'll tell you that's a lesson that comes out over

1242
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:27,880
Speaker 3: and over again in these stories. But right now we're

1243
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:29,600
Speaker 3: coming to the end of the show. Hope you enjoyed it,

1244
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 3: Thanks again to Barry Todd. We'll be back next week.

1245
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:36,240
Speaker 3: And remember I always shoot straight and always be saving.

1246
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 3: This is Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy Show on

1247
01:13:38,479 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 3: ninety three to WYBC.