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Speaker 1: Line from Vall Hartland and the Crossroads of America. It's

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Speaker 1: Tony Katz today.

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Speaker 2: Admittedly I do not spend time talking about Candace Owens.

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Speaker 2: Never been a fan, and I think I have proven

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Speaker 2: that here by not talking about him. I remember she

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Speaker 2: came to Indianapolis, where I live, for an event and

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Speaker 2: I actually said to the organizers, why are you doing this?

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Speaker 2: It's not going to be great, to which she spent

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Speaker 2: the time talking about herself nothing else, answering some questions,

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Speaker 2: but nothing about what the people came to hear about.

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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, I had been invited to

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Speaker 2: the VIP part of that event and people were taking pictures.

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Speaker 1: I have no photo with Candace Owans.

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Speaker 2: That did not happen Tony Katz, Tony Katz today, good

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Speaker 2: to be with you. But you certainly cannot question that

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Speaker 2: at one time Candace Owens had a lot of power,

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Speaker 2: and that Candace Owans has decided after splitting with The

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Speaker 2: Daily Wire, because she seems to seriously have a problem

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Speaker 2: with Jews her words, not mine.

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Speaker 1: It has only devolved into madness.

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Speaker 2: But there's a lot of stories that have involved her,

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Speaker 2: including this really continual story about opportunism.

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Speaker 1: Kira Davis joins us right now.

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Speaker 2: She's the author of Drawing Lines Why Conservatives must begin

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Speaker 2: to battle fiercely in the arena of ideas. You can

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Speaker 2: find that at Amazon dot com, wherever fine books are sold.

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Speaker 2: You see her hot takes over at the New York

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Speaker 2: Post Opinion journalist. You were the first person when you

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Speaker 2: and I have known each other while you fill in

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Speaker 2: on this very show, you were the first person I

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Speaker 2: ever knew who had not issue might be the wrong word,

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Speaker 2: but a real kind of Hey, you know this idea

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Speaker 2: that Candie Owans is the only one of her out

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Speaker 2: there in the world of conservatism that isn't really true?

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Speaker 2: And is anybody actually listening to the things that she says.

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Speaker 2: She is back on the news not just for her

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Speaker 2: anti Israel stuff and her anti Semitic stuff, but this

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Speaker 2: is about Charlie Kirk and you have been writing about

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Speaker 2: this and posting about this.

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Speaker 1: This what I.

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Speaker 2: Would call this hijacking of a legacy the candae owns

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Speaker 2: seems to be involved in. As you see it, and

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Speaker 2: to whatever background you can give to it, is Candice

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Speaker 2: Owans trying to do this.

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Speaker 3: Well. First of all, Tony, it's good to be back

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Speaker 3: on the show. Hello to all the listeners out there.

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Speaker 3: I always love filling in, so thanks for those opportunities.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't have predicted this type of meltdown from Candace,

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Speaker 3: but I definitely couldn't have predicted the last month or

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Speaker 3: so in American politics period Candie Owens. I want to

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Speaker 3: say this to people. Candice Owens has always been this person.

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Speaker 3: She didn't get changed by anybody, she didn't get affected

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Speaker 3: by anybody. She didn't get into the business and then

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Speaker 3: get corrupted. She is literally a has been this person.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people didn't really notice when she was

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Speaker 3: just being weird and rude about black people because a

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Speaker 3: lot of the things she said may have resonated politically

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Speaker 3: with some people. And I'm not even saying that's a

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Speaker 3: bad thing. I'm just saying maybe some of the things

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Speaker 3: that she said, you know, felt familiar to some people

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Speaker 3: and they thought, oh, well, she's just one of us,

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Speaker 3: and she's just saying edgy things. But that's not what

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Speaker 3: it was. Candace Owens is a grifter and she's going

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Speaker 3: to go where the money is. And at that time,

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Speaker 3: five years ago, I wrote an article about her that

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Speaker 3: I got a lot of grief for but I said,

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Speaker 3: there's a problem with this woman. I don't care for

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Speaker 3: the way she talks about Americans, particularly black Americans. It

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Speaker 3: signals something insincere to me. And over the years we

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Speaker 3: come to figure out, well, Candace will take a position,

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Speaker 3: any position that is going to be controversial enough to

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Speaker 3: set her apart. And that's what she's doing. When she

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Speaker 3: got fired from the Daily Wire, she found an audience

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Speaker 3: in the anti Semitic wing. She found an audience. She

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Speaker 3: found that they were clicking. And so what did she

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Speaker 3: start to do. She started to double down. That's when

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Speaker 3: she started to get very loud with her anti Semitism

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Speaker 3: and her anti Israel sentiments, when she realized that the

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Speaker 3: clicks were coming in. So now she's got Nick Fouentes

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Speaker 3: is a huge podcaster. He is a fringe al right podcaster,

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Speaker 3: but he has a huge audience, and now so does she.

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Speaker 3: She's tapped into his audience. So she's only been encouraged

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Speaker 3: to keep going further and further with the anti Semitism thing.

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Speaker 3: And then, of course, when Charlie was murdered, she knew Charlie.

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Speaker 3: They were friends. That's not a lie Charlie made her.

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Speaker 3: This was always kind of my bone of contingent with

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Speaker 3: Charlie that he gave us Candace Owens, he made her. Yes,

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Speaker 3: they were friends, but she's so an opportunity the second

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Speaker 3: he was murdered to take advantage of their relationship and

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Speaker 3: to exploit it. And what she is doing now to

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Speaker 3: Charlie's memory, to TPUSA, to Erica Kirk, it's not just rude,

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Speaker 3: it's not just disrespectful. It's disgusting. It's growth because she

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Speaker 3: is doing nothing but trying to profit off of Charlie's

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Speaker 3: death by taking words that he may or may not

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Speaker 3: have said prior to his death and using them to

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Speaker 3: support her own narrative. And he's not here, he's not

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Speaker 3: here to defend himself.

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Speaker 1: Let me get not here, let me get.

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Speaker 2: A little bit into that, because she was releasing texts

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Speaker 2: about Jewish donors pressuring him on Israel. If you don't

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Speaker 2: know anything about the donor class, they'll pressure about all

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Speaker 2: sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: They're giving the money.

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Speaker 2: They want their message told, they want their information out,

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Speaker 2: And how you manage donors is a big thing, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes you have to fire donors.

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Speaker 1: Full disclosure.

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Speaker 2: I have no donors at all, I haven't I have

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Speaker 2: not been that fortunate in my life, and I have

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Speaker 2: no pressures on me. I say what I say, and

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure Kira does as well.

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Speaker 1: So there were people.

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Speaker 3: But I'll take donors if you're out there, if you want,

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Speaker 3: I'll take donors. I'm accepting donors.

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Speaker 2: Just send the check to Tony Katz. I'll be sure

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Speaker 2: she gets it. So this was about donors engaging in

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Speaker 2: pressure about this on Israel or that on Israel. I'm

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Speaker 2: not surprised that this has happened. I don't think this

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Speaker 2: will be the first it's happened. I don't think it'll

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Speaker 2: be the last that happened. As there are donors out

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Speaker 2: there who are giving pressure people to be more anti

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Speaker 2: Israel and more this and more that it's happening all

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Speaker 2: over the place. We're not children, we're grown up, so

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Speaker 2: you can handle this conversation. So what she is doing

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Speaker 2: is saying that these text messages prove that he was

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Speaker 2: not a fan of Israel, not a fan of Jews.

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Speaker 1: Not this, not that.

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Speaker 2: Andrew Covid, who is was his executive producer on the

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Speaker 2: radio show and is a turning point, said that these

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Speaker 2: are authentic, but this was all and so a private exchange,

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Speaker 2: a text exchange that part I don't even think matters.

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Speaker 2: I would say, that's Andrew, who I don't know. What

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Speaker 2: I say to you, Kira, is that the argument is

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Speaker 2: these text messages don't prove a body of work.

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Speaker 1: Yet Candice Owns is trying to.

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Speaker 2: Make it proof of a body of work and changing

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Speaker 2: history in the process exactly.

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Speaker 3: And that's what Andrew is really saying when he says

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Speaker 3: these are private text messages. Tony, you and I have

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Speaker 3: known each other for fifteen years. If we went back

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Speaker 3: through our entire text history, there would be many questionable

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Speaker 3: things or things that would look questionable to people. Discussions.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we got a little too blue sometimes, maybe we

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Speaker 3: cracked an inside joke that looks very offensive to people

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Speaker 3: on the outside. Maybe we were having very nuanced discussions

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Speaker 3: about topics that we had just discussed earlier that day.

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Speaker 3: We would have no context for those for that text

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Speaker 3: fifteen year old text thread if it came out today,

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Speaker 3: and it's the same thing with this text thread. This

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Speaker 3: is what Andrew means. It was a private conversation, which

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Speaker 3: means it's full of contextualities, if that's even a word.

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Speaker 3: It's full of nuances. It's full of the silent language

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Speaker 3: of personal relationships. So there's a whole bunch of context

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Speaker 3: in those text messages that people from outside of that

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Speaker 3: relationship circle can't possibly understand. And that's what Andrew means.

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Speaker 3: Don't put words in Charlie's mouth on a group of

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Speaker 3: text messages when you don't really know what was going on.

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Speaker 3: You don't know the discussion, and it's one group of messages.

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Speaker 3: Charlie and I want to say this, Charlie was not

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Speaker 3: anti Israel. He wasn't thinking about abandoning Israel. He had

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Speaker 3: some questions, he had some donor issues, but again, these

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Speaker 3: are nuanced adult conversations that happen. He was having them

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Speaker 3: privately because the reason he had those conversation privately is

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Speaker 3: because if you have those nuanced conversations publicly, you end

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Speaker 3: up with people like Candace Owens trying to pick apart

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Speaker 3: your legacy. Brick by brick. He knew better than that.

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Speaker 3: So it's not some indictment. I wish everyone would stop

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Speaker 3: taking Charlie's got an entire life of work. You and

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Speaker 3: the word tells us you will know them by their fruits.

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Speaker 3: We knew Charlie by his fruits by what he produced.

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Speaker 3: Has he ever produced anything anti Semitic, anti Israel? Has

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Speaker 3: he ever been in an environment and done his job

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Speaker 3: where he has had been insulting of Israel or Jews

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Speaker 3: or come off like that at all. He's never been

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Speaker 3: anything about but a defender. So everyone needs to ignore

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Speaker 3: Candace and go on what you know about Charlie.

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Speaker 2: We have plenty to go on talking to you, Kira Davis,

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Speaker 2: Justkiradavis dot substack dot com. Just search for Just Kira

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Speaker 2: Davis on the substack and be sure to subscribe. And

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Speaker 2: the book drawing lines why conservatives must begin to battle

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Speaker 2: fiercely in the arena of ideas. Our mutual friend the

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Speaker 2: Bank of keV Kevin McKeever shared a post that you

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Speaker 2: had put out on X that starts with, Dear friends,

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Speaker 2: please remember that Charlie was a real person, and he

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Speaker 2: hasn't been gone long enough for those of us who

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Speaker 2: knew him to forget who he really was. It is

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Speaker 2: one month since Charlie Kirk was assassinated. It happened about

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Speaker 2: this time. The reason I wanted to talk to you

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Speaker 2: was not about whether he was a defender of Israel,

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Speaker 2: a defender of Jews. That's really not even my argument.

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Speaker 2: This is about what people will do for the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to gain an opportunity, and that part is really the

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Speaker 2: story of where Candice Owens is, and really the story

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Speaker 2: as I see it, of this downfall. This is much

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Speaker 2: larger than was he a supporter of Israel or not.

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Speaker 2: I believe that he was based on his words, but

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Speaker 2: I don't give a damn either way, and I would

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Speaker 2: say that to Erica Kirk or anybody at turning point.

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Speaker 2: None of that is part of my conversation I'm watching,

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Speaker 2: if I understand it right, the manipulation of conversation and

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Speaker 2: relationships to benefit and we see this happen. This is

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Speaker 2: an ugliness that we should I think clearly state is

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Speaker 2: beneath us and shows what kind of person we're dealing

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Speaker 2: with when it comes to candae Owns.

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Speaker 3: Yes, this was totally my argument. Five years ago when

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Speaker 3: I dropped my article The Trouble with Candace, I read state,

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Speaker 3: you can still go see it. It still gets clicked,

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Speaker 3: it still gets shared, And that's exactly what I said.

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Speaker 3: You guys are looking at this woman as somebody who

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Speaker 3: has opinions and has some solutions to share and she's not.

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Speaker 3: She's a gripter. And what's a a gripter is someone

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Speaker 3: who sticks her finger in the air, takes account of

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Speaker 3: the wind, and then that's the direction they go in.

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Speaker 3: So when she's and you're right, Tony, this is a

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Speaker 3: larger conversation about that, and that is that's what I

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Speaker 3: was saying earlier, about contextualizing things and taking things out

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Speaker 3: of context for your own to exploit your own advantages.

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Speaker 3: Candice did not wait. She didn't even wait until Charlie's

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Speaker 3: body got home before she started cutting up like this,

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Speaker 3: acting up like this. So that is the sign of

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Speaker 3: a grifter. And I think what we're seeing here, I

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Speaker 3: actually we've had this conversation on this show before. I

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Speaker 3: think you've nailed it. What we're seeing here is not

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Speaker 3: an issue of politics. You're absolutely right, And again I

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Speaker 3: still do feel very strongly about saying out loud that

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Speaker 3: Charlie was a defender of Israel. So whatever questions you have,

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Speaker 3: he was all right. So but outside of that, we

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Speaker 3: have a problem in conservative media. We have we have

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Speaker 3: the commentator and policy set people like you and me,

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Speaker 3: and then we have the influencers, and the influencers have

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Speaker 3: taken over the journalism part of conservative media, and the

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Speaker 3: influencers are the social media influencers. They have their advantages, right,

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Speaker 3: they can get out messages, they have a lot of followers,

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Speaker 3: they can disseminate talking points. But they're entertainers first, so

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Speaker 3: they go where the money is. And that's what Candice

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Speaker 3: is doing. She's going where the money is. And so

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Speaker 3: we do have a problem with how do we digest

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Speaker 3: our news here on the right, And you know, how

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Speaker 3: do we determine the difference between someone who is just

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Speaker 3: drifting and influencing and someone who is just really good

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Speaker 3: at spreading the.

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Speaker 1: Word talking to you.

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Speaker 2: Kia Davis finds her at a substack just Kira Davis

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Speaker 2: dot substock dot com. We've talked about influencers before, we've

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Speaker 2: done it off their we've dot it on and the

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Speaker 2: difference between I'm a radio host. I don't look at

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Speaker 2: myself as a social media influencer at all, the fact

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Speaker 2: that I may from time to time have influences different

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Speaker 2: than the content that they're creating.

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Speaker 1: The question before us, or maybe the issue before.

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Speaker 2: Us is Candice isn't going away tomorrow, and you can

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Speaker 2: bring up other people as well. I want Nick foint

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Speaker 2: Dies to go away as well. That anti semi but

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Speaker 2: that's it's not going away. There is an audience for

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Speaker 2: these things. Tucker's turn has been ugly and despicable, and

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Speaker 2: I'm disappointed in him, and it's it's it's hot garbage.

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Speaker 2: He's certainly not going away. That's not happening. So the

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Speaker 2: question before us is how does the fiefdom of the

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Speaker 2: influencer get penetrated at all to try and bring some

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Speaker 2: accountability to the irrational statements and flat fraudulent statements.

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Speaker 1: That are being made.

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Speaker 2: How do you cut into that and cut down on

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Speaker 2: an influencer's influence.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you can cut down on an influencer's influence.

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Speaker 3: That's you know, that's up to the people. It's a

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Speaker 3: nebulous thing. I don't think we can. But I think

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Speaker 3: the thing you do is what we're doing right now

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Speaker 3: when to talk about it, you give people alternative points

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Speaker 3: of view. Isn't that the whole issue that we've had,

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Speaker 3: particularly over the last four to ten years with the left.

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Speaker 3: They haven't been allowed to see what we are thinking

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Speaker 3: and believing on the right, and so they have been

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Speaker 3: living in this bubble and then they've been able to

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Speaker 3: paint us however they want because we couldn't get our

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Speaker 3: voices out there, and now we see the results of

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Speaker 3: that have been very, very dangerous. But it's the same

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Speaker 3: thing on this side with your question about the influencers.

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Speaker 3: You know, you can't change that aspect, and you can't

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Speaker 3: change what people like or what people want. But what

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Speaker 3: you can do is make sure that people are hearing

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Speaker 3: the other parts of the argument so that they don't

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Speaker 3: think that we're all walking and lockstep on this issue,

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Speaker 3: and so that they know that there are other people

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Speaker 3: out there, maybe other people with actual, real intimate information,

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Speaker 3: who can add context to the situation outside of the

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Speaker 3: influencer set. You just got to it's just got to

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Speaker 3: be more voices. And I truly do believe that, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you leave a thing alone long enough, it'll bite it.

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Speaker 3: It'll by itself in the butt. That's what a friend

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Speaker 3: told me about Candace years ago when I was losing

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Speaker 3: work and losing followers for criticizing her, and I was

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Speaker 3: so upset, and my friend said, you know what, Kier,

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Speaker 3: We've seen a ton of Candace Owes coming go over

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Speaker 3: the years, and if you wait long enough the truth

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Speaker 3: about her will come out and people will see it,

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Speaker 3: and people are seeing it now. Is it hitting her pocketbook? No,

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Speaker 3: not yet. But I don't really care. Like like you say,

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Speaker 3: I don't really care. I don't care about that. I

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Speaker 3: don't care who watches her or doesn't. The point is

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Speaker 3: is that who she is is available for people to see,

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Speaker 3: and then people can make their own decision.

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Speaker 1: More coming up. I'm Tony Katz.

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Speaker 2: This is Tony Katz today continuing my conversation with Kia

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Speaker 2: Davis just Kia Davis dot substack dot com opinion journalists

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Speaker 2: just hear her work at The New York Post discussing

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Speaker 2: Candace Owens and her clear trying to manipulate her legacy

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Speaker 2: or the legacy of Charlie Kirk to her advantage and

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Speaker 2: as full disclosures as humanly possible. I'm not saying she

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Speaker 2: can't have her shows, and I'm not saying she can't

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Speaker 2: have her social media accounts, and I'm not saying she

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Speaker 2: can't spew of the nonsense.

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Speaker 1: I just want more.

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Speaker 2: People to recognize that this is ugly stuff, trying to

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Speaker 2: make your bones on the legacy of somebody else by

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Speaker 2: manipulating that legacy is something that is that, Tony.

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Speaker 3: It's not just that Charlie was her friend. Charlie was

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Speaker 3: her friend, and she knew Erica, and she knew Charlie

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Speaker 3: very very well. It's really despicable. What she's not acting

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Speaker 3: like she knew Charlie.

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Speaker 1: She's not acting like a friend. I mean, so, so

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Speaker 1: what do we call friend? What is that? Actually? Me

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Speaker 1: and a friend? A friend is easy in the good times.

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Speaker 3: Well, she's calling him her friend for sure out there.

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Speaker 3: But she knew Charlie very well, and Charlie was very

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Speaker 3: kind to her. And if you think that Candace has

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Speaker 3: a bunch of text messages that could paint Charlie or

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Speaker 3: TPUSA in a bad light, don't think for one second.

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Speaker 3: They don't have the same which is he has a

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Speaker 3: whole other thing.

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Speaker 2: Right now, we're getting into cold war detant.

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Speaker 1: You published this, I published that. Okay, everybody bring down

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Speaker 1: the heat, dear lord.

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Speaker 3: Why in the world, Well, that's what TPUSA is trying

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Speaker 3: to avoid. They don't want that. They don't want that.

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Speaker 3: They just want her to go away. They're not they're

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Speaker 3: not doing that, That's my point. But I who's done

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Speaker 3: right here?

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Speaker 1: What I like about you? You bringing it up.

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Speaker 2: Is that that is that is really what we're coming

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Speaker 2: to you like, this is, this is where this conversation is,

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Speaker 2: this where it leads, and this is you know, this

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Speaker 2: concept of mutually assured destruction doesn't do any buddy any good.

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Speaker 1: Cia Davis, I'm gonna leave it there.

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Speaker 2: Get the substack, just Kira Davis dot substack dot com.

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Speaker 2: Look for Kia Davis and the book Drawing Lines, available

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Speaker 2: at Amazon dot com.

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Speaker 1: Cure a Pleasure. I've known Kia a long time and

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Speaker 1: Kira did take hits. She took the hits for being.

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Speaker 2: Very very honest. That article over there at Red State.

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Speaker 2: It is still there.

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Speaker 1: The problem with canvas, and I would say there is

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Speaker 1: a problem.

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Speaker 2: With influencers because they're attracting audience without having to prove it.

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Speaker 1: And that's how it comes across to me, maybe not

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Speaker 1: to you. I'd love to know.

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Speaker 2: Let me know, Tony Tony Katz dot com, Twitter at

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Speaker 2: Tony Katz.

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Speaker 1: More coming up. I'm Tony Katz.

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Speaker 3: This is Tony Kats today.