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Speaker 1: Casey. Yeah, Rob, they decided to settle it like men, yes,

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Speaker 1: on the public airwaves. That's right.

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Speaker 2: This is going to be fantastic.

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Speaker 1: So this is going to be a really interesting Segment's

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Speaker 1: Kenney Casey Show and Rob, that's Casey. You know we

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Speaker 1: are we love our friends at the Indie Star. And

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Speaker 1: we've had both James Briggs and Jacob Stewart the columnists

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Speaker 1: on our program, and we took note last week that

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Speaker 1: they had sort of dueling columns about the data center,

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Speaker 1: the Google Data Center in Franklin Township proposed Google Data

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Speaker 1: Center in Franklin Township. And I said, it's very interesting

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Speaker 1: that two guys, or both friends of this program have

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Speaker 1: very different views on the same project and they work

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Speaker 1: for the same company.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, opposing opinion pieces. And as we started off the

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Speaker 3: show this morning, we were talking about how the Franklin

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Speaker 3: Township community schools came out in support of the data center.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's going to be fascinating to see

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Speaker 3: what these guys have to say and what that adds

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Speaker 3: to the conversation.

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Speaker 1: All right, so let's bring him in. First of all,

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Speaker 1: you know him under the stars. Jacob Stewart, columnist Indie Star, Hello,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me on. And you know him also

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Speaker 1: pain in the backside to politicians everywhere. James Briggs, Hello.

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Speaker 2: Hello, are we doing free speech here today or Drake

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Speaker 2: listening in?

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Speaker 1: All right? So Jacob, let's start with you, because you

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Speaker 1: have come out with a lot of concerns about the

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Speaker 1: data center. You don't think it's a good idea for Indianapolis,

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Speaker 1: for the people of Franklin Township.

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Speaker 4: Why Well, the biggest reason why is because it will

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Speaker 4: be used to increase the electricity rates of homeowners all

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Speaker 4: around the as Service territory. If AES builds any new

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Speaker 4: power plant, they can pass on the cost of that

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Speaker 4: power plant to consumers during construction. And that's regardless of

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Speaker 4: whether or not the data center ends up painting out,

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Speaker 4: regardless of whether or not the power plant ends up

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Speaker 4: panning out. So that's my number one concern. There's a

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Speaker 4: bunch of other issues about water usage and environmental concerns,

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Speaker 4: but that's my biggest one by far. And then, of

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Speaker 4: course the pretty massive tax abatements that they're getting, so

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Speaker 4: they're not paying their fair shar.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so hold on hold on to that for a second.

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Speaker 1: But before I bring James in, I want to touch

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Speaker 1: on that because the major supporters of a lot of

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Speaker 1: these data centers across the state are these power companies,

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Speaker 1: because somebody got to put the electricity to the thing, right,

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Speaker 1: in this case, it's AES, correct.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So they're large load customers, so they take significant

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Speaker 4: amounts of electricity. They're projected to more than double our

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Speaker 4: electricity demand as a state. So that's a huge boon

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Speaker 4: for AES, especially when you have a monopoly over their

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Speaker 4: service territory like we have in Indiana. No one can

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Speaker 4: sell power directly to consumers without going through a utility monopoly,

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Speaker 4: and so they like data centers. They probably would prefer

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Speaker 4: to go through like an independent power company or something

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Speaker 4: like that, or make their own power, but it's it's

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Speaker 4: not really feasible to do so, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, James Briggs, You're usually a reasonable, well thought out

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Speaker 1: human being, But in this case, you say, these data center,

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Speaker 1: the data center, the good, especially the one of Franklin Township,

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Speaker 1: is going to be good for the city of Indianapolis.

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Speaker 2: Why, Yeah, Well, a couple of things here. One, these

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Speaker 2: data centers are coming regardless of what Indianapolis decides. So

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Speaker 2: it's not like the utility impact just stops at the

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Speaker 2: county line. Like if Google just builds it somewhere else,

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Speaker 2: then there's still a regional utility impact.

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Speaker 1: And so what you're saying is if you're you're going

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Speaker 1: to pay for it as long as Google gets it somewhere.

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Speaker 1: If you're an AES person, you're going to pay for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And it's I mean, not one hundred percent

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Speaker 2: clear how that shakes out. And I think there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of uncertainty even what you know, even if they

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Speaker 2: build this in Franklin Township, I think there's some degree

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Speaker 2: of uncertainty what that actually means for rate payers. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think it's reasonable to be concerned about that, But

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Speaker 2: I think it's also reasonable to say, look, data centers

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Speaker 2: are going to be built, a lot of them are

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Speaker 2: going to be built. They're gonna be built all over Indiana,

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Speaker 2: and some of them are going to affect AES customers

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Speaker 2: regardless of what Indianapolis decides. So you might as well,

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Speaker 2: in my view, just take the benefits, take whatever benefits

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Speaker 2: you can get out of it.

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Speaker 1: If you're just joining us. This fascinating conversation Jacob Stewart

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Speaker 1: and James Burry's columnists of Indie Star. They're settling their

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Speaker 1: disagreements and their columns like men here in the public airwaves.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the data center, the proposed data center

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Speaker 1: in Franklin Township, Google's data center, and two very different

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Speaker 1: opinions on this. All right, So let's go back to

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Speaker 1: what you said, Jacob, which is the abatements. And this

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Speaker 1: is where I have heard the most amount of pushback

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Speaker 1: from people, which is, why do they get all these incentives?

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Speaker 1: And after we give them the incentives, what do they

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Speaker 1: actually contribute? You've written about this, what have you found? Right?

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Speaker 4: So, these abatements, they all started in twenty nineteen with

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Speaker 4: the state giving a tax abatement on around fifty years

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Speaker 4: worth of electricity and equipment that these data centers are

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Speaker 4: eligible for. That's what's made the state so attractive for

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Speaker 4: these data centers.

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Speaker 1: This is on the top of the like property tax

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Speaker 1: abate right, correct.

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Speaker 4: So in addition to that, they can also get these

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Speaker 4: property tax abatements, which is, you know, it's pretty common

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Speaker 4: for developments to get to these. You know, I tend

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Speaker 4: to disagree with the developments in general getting these, but

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Speaker 4: in this particular case, it seems even more or egregious

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Speaker 4: because of the impact on the people in the community

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Speaker 4: and because of this impact on right pairs. And and

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Speaker 4: to James point, there is another one planned in Monrovia,

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Speaker 4: which is also in the AES service territory.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we had that guy on our show, one of

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Speaker 1: those guys on our show. They're not happy about that, right, right.

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Speaker 4: So that's the only one, only other one currently planned

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Speaker 4: in the AEES service territory. So if either one succeeds,

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Speaker 4: more than likely it'll impact the AES rate pairs.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's an interesting fort. James Briggs, So you talked

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Speaker 1: about and I think you I hate to say this

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Speaker 1: out loud, but I think you make a decent point. Hey,

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Speaker 1: if they're going to get it somewhere, they might as

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Speaker 1: well get it in your place to get the benefit.

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Speaker 1: But what is the financial benefit? Have you've been able

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Speaker 1: to figure out what that is? I think because a

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Speaker 1: lot of people feel they don't see with all the incentives, credits, whatever,

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Speaker 1: an actual benefit to the communities.

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Speaker 2: Well, the Franklin Township School statement that you alluded to

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Speaker 2: a moment ago, I think that's one sign of benefit.

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Speaker 2: I mean, look at the tax space around that school, district.

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Speaker 2: I think it's like eighty six percent residential, So they

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Speaker 2: need money, and it's you know, residential property taxes. Obviously

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Speaker 2: it goes a long way toward funding schools, but certainly

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Speaker 2: commercial property taxes can help that as well. And whatever

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Speaker 2: the tax benefit is from the data centers, it's not

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Speaker 2: zero even with all of these outrageous incentives. That's one

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Speaker 2: I Aerad Jacob and I agree that the incentives are

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Speaker 2: just ridiculous at both the state and local level. But

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Speaker 2: nonetheless there still would be a substantial property tax benefit

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Speaker 2: for schools and for the city itself. And right now,

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Speaker 2: what's there If you look at that site, it's like

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Speaker 2: a lot of soybeans Like that, there's not a lot

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Speaker 2: of like tax benefits.

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Speaker 1: What you gotta getbeans? Man fields are fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, soybeans are fine. They're probably also you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know that specific site, but probably also being subsidized

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Speaker 2: by the government too in their own way.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, James, I'm curious because when the Franklin

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Speaker 3: Township Community School Corporation came out, they said that they

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Speaker 3: like the commitment from Google because it's going to help

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Speaker 3: address inequalities, and they're blaming the state's property tax reform

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Speaker 3: bill on the financial stress from the school system. But

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Speaker 3: isn't the tax of Bayman just going to contribute to that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I think Google has committed very specifically

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Speaker 2: to the school district a certain amount of money. So

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Speaker 2: I think the school district is especially happy with this

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Speaker 2: arrangement because I think Google there's a there's a minimum

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Speaker 2: commitment there. So I think the school district knows that

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Speaker 2: it's going to receive a pretty substantial benefit. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they mean by resolving inequities there,

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Speaker 2: but I think they're going to benefit certainly from it.

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Speaker 4: I wish they'd tell us about how much they're going

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Speaker 4: to benefit.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the point, right, it's we're always the last

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Speaker 1: to know if you're just joining us. James Briggs, columnist

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Speaker 1: for the Indie Star, Jacob Stewart, columnist Indie Star, having

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Speaker 1: a we're having a fascinating conversation about this proposed Google

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Speaker 1: data center in Franklin Township. Whether you live in Franklin

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Speaker 1: Township or not, this is a conversation for you, because,

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Speaker 1: as these guys have alluded to, even or don't get

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Speaker 1: approved there, they're coming somewhere, So maybe I need to

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Speaker 1: cheer for it to go there, because it'll end up

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Speaker 1: in Brownsburg at some point. All right, So for both

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Speaker 1: of you guys, let's lay out what a better process

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Speaker 1: would look like like. What should if we're going to

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Speaker 1: have these data centers, or maybe JB say, under no

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Speaker 1: circumstances we have the data centers. What should the process

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Speaker 1: look like? Should we say no more batements? You know,

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Speaker 1: what would it look like for you to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this becomes an acceptable thing.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm a firm believer that the unit of government

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Speaker 4: that sets the policy should bear the cost of it.

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Speaker 4: And the federal government has been very clear that data

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Speaker 4: centers are a national security asset and they've said they're

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Speaker 4: a priority and building up the grade as a priority.

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Speaker 4: So I think that the federal government should bear the

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Speaker 4: cost of them. Building up the electricity grid making sure

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Speaker 4: it doesn't pass on to consumers. So that could look

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Speaker 4: like a variety of different things, maybe putting a specific

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Speaker 4: tax on large load customers and using that taxes to

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Speaker 4: build up the grid in some sort of subsidized way

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Speaker 4: to avoid that passing on to consumers. Basically, any way

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Speaker 4: to get it out of the foothold of these utility monopolies,

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Speaker 4: because ultimately they are the ones that are making it

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Speaker 4: bad for the residents.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I think that makes sense. I also struggle

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Speaker 2: with the incentives at the state and local level. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think that's not the only reason that tech companies

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Speaker 2: want would want to put data centers around here. One

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Speaker 2: of them is Indiana's cheap land. I mean, that's probably

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Speaker 2: why the Franklin Township site is so appealing. It's it's

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Speaker 2: farmland right now, and there's an owner of that site

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Speaker 2: that wants to sell it. And you know, if it

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Speaker 2: doesn't turn into a data center, it's going to turn

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Speaker 2: into something else down the road. So I don't think

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Speaker 2: you necessarily need that level of incentives. These things need

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Speaker 2: to get built, they need to go somewhere. I think

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Speaker 2: Jacob's right. I think there should be some some federal

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Speaker 2: involvement in helping to support these things, because they are

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Speaker 2: important to national security and also just to the growth

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Speaker 2: of tech, which we need to take some ownership of

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Speaker 2: in the United States and not seed it to other nations.

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Speaker 2: But Indiana has other reasons to sort of lure these

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Speaker 2: things here, cheap land being you know, chief and among

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Speaker 2: them perhaps, So I don't think we don't necessarily need

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Speaker 2: to fight with every other state over these data centers.

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Speaker 1: All right, the big question before I let you guys go,

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Speaker 1: and you no blows have been thrown. Everyone is still

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Speaker 1: in one piece. Jacob will start with you, will this

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Speaker 1: and bribery such a strong word, or legalized bribery such

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Speaker 1: a strong word? With the incentives that have been kicked

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Speaker 1: around to the Franklin Township schools? Do you still believe

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Speaker 1: this will go down next week when voted on by

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Speaker 1: the Indianapolis City County Council.

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Speaker 4: I think as long as Michael Paul Hart stays committed

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Speaker 4: to opposing it, it probably will still, you know, get

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Speaker 4: shot down, because most of the counselors who have opposed

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Speaker 4: it have cited his opposition as the primary reason for

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Speaker 4: their opposition, even ones it may not even be apposted

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Speaker 4: data centers in general, but it's it's supposedly the long

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Speaker 4: held tradition to just defer to the counselor in the

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Speaker 4: district who is being impacted by the rezoning bricks.

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Speaker 1: So I think in the past, think it shurts, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the past, I think Jacob would have a good point.

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Speaker 2: There. There's been a lot of historic deference to counselors

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Speaker 2: in the district that they serve. If you know, if

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Speaker 2: something's going in one district and the councilors like it,

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Speaker 2: they just kill it. But if you'll remember, way way

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Speaker 2: way back to the whole India eleven Stadium MLS thing

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Speaker 2: last year when the council screwed over Indy eleven and

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Speaker 2: ursall the councilor who represented the district where the India

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Speaker 2: eleven Stadium was going to go oppose that, and this

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Speaker 2: council said, whatever, we're doing it anyway. So I think

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Speaker 2: that that precedent has sort of been set. There's like

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Speaker 2: there's not as much difference as there used to be.

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Speaker 2: And whenever you see a school district come out and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: this would be good for us, I do think that

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Speaker 2: provides an excuse for anyone who might be looking to

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Speaker 2: walk back their previous opposition to this project to change

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Speaker 2: their minds and have sort of a public face saving

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Speaker 2: reason to do so.

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Speaker 1: All right, James Briggs and Jacob Stewart of The Indie Star,

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Speaker 1: thank you.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Kendall and Casey. It is ninety three WIBC,