1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: Line from the Heartbeyer and the Crossroads of America. It's 2 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Tony Katz today. You know, it's very, very possible that 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: no one even understands what a subsidy is. All this 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: talk and all this fight and a government shutdown over 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: Obamacare subsidies, do we actually know what it means? Are 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: we talking about actual cash? Are we talking about a 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: tax credit? What's the difference here? Does it actually make 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: Obamacare work? Or is the fundamental problem that Obamacare doesn't work? 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: And all we're doing is kicking a problem down the road. 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: And what is the problem? Is the problem that we 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: don't treat healthcare like we do other places in the market. 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: Or is the problem that we don't recognize that healthcare 13 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: is special in and of it to itself, in and 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: of itself into itself. I don't even know how you 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: would say the words. You think I'd be better at 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: talking being on radio and all Tony Katz, Tony Katz today, 17 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: good to be with you. Let me bring in ovic Roy. 18 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: Ovic Roy is the man behind freeop. This is the 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: Foundation for Research and Equal Opportunity. He serves as the 20 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: chairman there and president. His background, his history is not 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,199 Speaker 1: only as a scientist. It's training at MIT. But then 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 1: as Obamacare came to be, and that's where I met 23 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: Ovic all these years ago. Is really about healthcare policy, 24 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: about what it is in the very very detailed, granual level, 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: granular level that we're dealing with here. 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 2: So of it. 27 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: Good to see you man, always a pleasure to have 28 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: a chance to talk to you. Let's start with I 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: guess a baseline. When the Democrats are screaming about subsidies 30 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: for Obamacare, what is it that they're actually talking about. 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: They're talking about an extra bonus enhanced set of subsidies 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: that they passed during COVID. Initially was supposed to be 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: a two year emergency measure, then I got extended for 34 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: another two years. And because of that extra two year extension, 35 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 2: it's set to expire at the end of twenty twenty five, 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: and they want it to extend further, as they always do. Right, 37 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: And there's what is it that Reagan said the quickest 38 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: way to everlasting life is to be a government bureau 39 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: So right, so we. 40 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: Talk about how they want this these dollars to extend, 41 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: you know, was Reagan also said, You know, I'm from 42 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: the government. I'm here to help the most dangerous words 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: in the English language. This is weird to people, these 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: subsidies because Obamacare was supposed to be it is the 45 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: Affordable Care Act, It's the ACA. It's supposed to be 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: much more affordable. It's supposed to make it easier for 47 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: people to get healthcare. And clearly that didn't work. So 48 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: was this alive from the beginning or was this one 49 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: of those things that the pathway to Hell's paid with 50 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: good intentions? 51 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: Can I say both? Oh? Sure, because the lie was 52 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: that Obamacare did make the underlying cost of buying health 53 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: insurance on your own much more expensive. So, just to 54 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: rewind a little bit, we subsidize healthcare health insurance for 55 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: almost everybody in America. If you're over sixty five, you 56 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: get subsidized health insurance through Medicare. If you're super poor 57 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: or disabled, you get subsidized health insurance through Medicaid. If 58 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: you get insurance through your job. There's a massive tax 59 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: subsidy for employer sponsored health insurance, where literally like if 60 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: that if your employer gives you one hundred bucks in wages, 61 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: you pay income taxes on it, You pay Social Security, 62 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: Medicare taxes on it, State and local income tax on it. 63 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: But if that same employer gives you one hundred bucks 64 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: in health insurance, you pay no taxes on it. So 65 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 2: there's a tax subsidy for employer based insurance. So there 66 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: was a gap in the market pre Obamacare where if 67 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: you didn't get health insurance through your employer, you weren't 68 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, and you weren't old 69 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: enough to qualify for Medicare, you were like the only 70 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: group left left basically working people who are like freelancers 71 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: or other types of people who didn't get insurns through 72 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 2: the employer, who didn't have a subsidy for health insurance. 73 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: So both Republicans and Democrats in different ways have proposed 74 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: evening out that discrepancy and saying, let's balance out the 75 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 2: help we give to the working poor in the middle 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: class versus what we give to hire and come people 77 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 2: through employers sponsored insurance, what we give to the elderly, 78 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 2: what we give to the poor. So that part is okay. 79 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 2: The part that Obamacare really screwed up is it heavily 80 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: regulated the kind of insurance you could offer to people 81 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 2: who didn't get it through their employer, and that individually 82 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: purchased or non group health insurance is what Obamacare is 83 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: made super expensive and what made the subsidies much more necessary. 84 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: Because if you're going to triple or quadruple the premiums 85 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 2: that people have to pay, then a lot of people 86 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: aren't going to be able to afford it. 87 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: So we can say that Obamacare did not make healthcare cheaper. 88 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: Oh, it definitely didn't make healthcare cheaper. Now, the way 89 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: supporters of Obamacare describe it is they made it affordable 90 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 2: by subsidizing it. Right, So if if you're if your premium, 91 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: your monthly premium went from two hundred bucks a month 92 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 2: to one thousand bucks a month, but the government is 93 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: covering the difference or more than you know, even more 94 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 2: of the difference that your net you know, premium net 95 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: of the taxpayer subsidies is one hundred and fifty dollars 96 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 2: a month instead of two hundred. Maybe for you, you know, 97 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: your health insurance is quote unquote a little bit more affordable. 98 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe not because deductibles and copays of also skyrocket 99 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: under Obamacare. But all this to say that actually, if 100 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: you look at the underlying premium, the underlying cost of 101 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 2: the insurance it's exploded in cost. And that's why Democrats 102 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 2: want to perpetuate these enhanced subsidies because people like me 103 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: fifteen years ago, as you know, Tony, because we talked 104 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: about it on your show fifteen years ago. You know, 105 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: we were saying, look, this is going to drive up 106 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 2: the underlying cost of insurance, and these subsidies that Obamacare 107 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: has appropriated for that purpose aren't going to be enough 108 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: to cover the higher underlying cost. And sure enough, here 109 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: we are, you know, fifteen years later, and the Democrats 110 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: are saying, let's paper over the fact that Obamacare is 111 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 2: too expensive and effectively, let's bail it out by adding 112 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: on these additional subsidies. And so the thing that I've 113 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: proposed a lot of Republicans, a lot of conservatives saying 114 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 2: they're seeing what I've just described to you, and they're saying, 115 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 2: screw that, let's just end the subsidies. Why should we 116 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 2: perpetuate these subsidies to bail out a program that we 117 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 2: set all along was going to be unaffordable. Okay, So 118 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: that's the baseline Republican or conservative point of view, which 119 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: I sympathize with. But I'm arguing for a somewhat different strategy. 120 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 2: What I'm arguing is that the only way to deregulate Obamacare, 121 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: or to reform the regulations in Obamacare that have made 122 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 2: the health insurance on Obamacare so expense, is you have 123 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: to pass a law that can get sixty votes in 124 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: the Senate. You have to be able to overcome a 125 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: filibuster to deregulate obomacare. As we learned in twenty seventeen, 126 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: when Republicans try to repeal and replace Obamacare, they could 127 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: only defund it using the reconciliation process, but they couldn't 128 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: deregulate it. The regulations under current Senate rules require you 129 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: to get sixty votes in the Senate, not fifty. And 130 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: so what I'm proposing is give the Democrats a short 131 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: term extension that phases out the subsidies in one or 132 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: two years in exchange for permanent deregulation of the exchanges, 133 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 2: so the underlying premiums can go back down, because if 134 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: we just let the subsidies expire, we haven't really solved 135 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: the problem. The underlying costing insurance is still expensive because 136 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: the regulations are still in place. So the problem we 137 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: really need to solve if we want health insurance to 138 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: be affordable for people is how to deregulate Obamacare, and 139 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: for that we're going to need some Democratic votes. 140 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: Talking to of Croy of a free up froopp dot org, 141 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: the Foundation for Research on Equal Opportunity, where he is 142 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: the founder, a co founder, and a chairman, this brings 143 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: us to this idea of can you make healthcare affordable? 144 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: I have made a rudimentary argument that it seems odd 145 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: to me and unnecessary to me, and maybe I could 146 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,559 Speaker 1: go so far say dangerous to me, that we treat 147 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: healthcare differently than we treat the mechanic. We treat our 148 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: doctor different than the mechanic. We have a problem with 149 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: our breaks, we go to the mechanic, we pay for 150 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: new breaks, we get new breaks. We have a problem 151 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: with our hip, We go to the doctor. And the 152 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: next thing you know, there's twenty seven levels in between 153 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: me and the doctor, where if I don't have insurance, 154 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: the titalin all costs me ninety two thousand dollars, and 155 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: if I have insurance that cost me seventeen cents. There's 156 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: a fundamental issue here in how we address this as 157 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: a marketplace to begin with. So this is where I 158 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: find myself constantly saying we're doing this wrong. So let 159 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: me start with a basic question to you, do we 160 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: have the capacity in the United States to make health 161 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: care affordable? 162 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: Boy, there's a lot of different ways to answer that question. 163 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: I'll put it this way. 164 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: I got nothing but time, kitt and go for them all. 165 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: If you were to put me in front of a 166 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: blackboard and say, how would you redesign the healthcare system 167 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: in America so that it were affordable, competitive, innovative, and 168 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 2: had a lot of choice, and you know, didn't cost 169 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: the government nearly as much as it did now, I 170 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: could design that system. In fact, at Free Up, we've 171 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: put forward a plan that's been introduced in Congress as 172 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: the Fair Care Act, sponsored in both the House and 173 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 2: the Senate. In fact, two members of the Indiana congressional 174 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: delegation have been heavily involved in a Jim Banks back 175 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: when he was a House member, and then your current 176 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: Governor Mike Brawn, who's obvious now who is the governor, 177 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: but was a Senator until reasons he was the inter 178 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: he was the one who introduced it in the Senate. 179 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 2: And Jim Banks when he was in the House, he 180 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 2: introduced it there so we've put forward a plan and 181 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: you can talk to them about it next time you 182 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 2: have them on That would actually solve this problem. That 183 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 2: would in a very politically gradual way, because you can't 184 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: disrupt health insurance and healthcare for people, migrate us more 185 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: into a system that's fiscally sustainable, that actually cuts taxes, 186 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: reduces spending by trillions of dollars over a multi decade period, 187 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: solves the entitlement problem, and actually preserves the things about 188 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: the healthcare system that we actually like, the innovation and 189 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: the choice where we have it. So it's possible to do. 190 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 2: The challenge is that particularly Republicans our risk averse when 191 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 2: it comes to healthcare. Their experience of twenty seventeen scarred them. 192 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 2: Most Republicans in Congress believe they lost their majorities in 193 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,119 Speaker 2: Congress because of this repeal and replaced battle in seventeen, 194 00:10:58,520 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: and so a lot of them just don't want to 195 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: touch They don't want to be bothered by healthcare, they 196 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 2: don't want to think about it. And the problem with. 197 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: That is later and two terms of Trump, and you're 198 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: saying that that's still the scarf when they fell off 199 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: their tricycle at the age of four is still haunting them. 200 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, Yes, and the challenges. Healthcare gets more and more 201 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: expensive every year because we aren't fixing it. And not 202 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: only that, healthcare spending is the biggest driver of the 203 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: federal deficit, and so every year the deficit and the 204 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 2: debt get bigger because we haven't fixed healthcare. So these 205 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 2: problems are coming to a head. The Medicare Trust Fund 206 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,079 Speaker 2: is going broken, I believe twenty thirty three or twenty 207 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: thirty two, which isn't that far far away. That's seven 208 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: years away. And you know, Paul Ryan tried to fix 209 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 2: all this stuff in twenty twelve. He proposed that big 210 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: plan that if we had passed then would have made 211 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 2: a big difference. But here we are now it's twenty 212 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: twenty five, and we're rapidly approaching that fiscal cliff, and 213 00:11:58,400 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: it's going to be pretty scary. 214 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: We do talking to Ovik Roy of freeop f r 215 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: eo ppfreeop dot org. This is the Foundation for Research 216 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: on Equal Opportunity where he is the co founder and 217 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: a chairman. And rarely do you hear people singing the 218 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: praises these days of Paul Ryan. I mean, you got 219 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: to take that hit where you gotta take that. 220 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's an unfashionable name to drop, but I think 221 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 2: people are going to regret not listening to him about 222 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: Medicare reform in particular. It is twenty twelve. 223 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: But as if you could argue that the Democrats at 224 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 1: any success in this shutdown, which I think there's very 225 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: little they could point to, it's that people are now 226 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: asking this question about subsidies, and that can easily be 227 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: a backfire to them, where people could say, well, we 228 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: don't want Obamacare at all, and we're sick and tired 229 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: of paying for people who aren't paying for their own insurance. 230 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: You're making a secondary argument. You're saying, wait, wait, wait, 231 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: we need to deal with an underline issue that Obamacare 232 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: is not just the money issue that Obamacare is, and 233 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: that's where you talk about engaging a deregulation. But I 234 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: think the thing that always comes back is, well, what 235 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: is your plan? You talk about what you had with 236 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: now Senator Jim Banks and now Governor Mike Brown, who 237 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: were a congressman a center respectively, when you were pushing 238 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: this forward. Does it lead to government being involved in healthcare? 239 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: Is the only way to have healthcare good healthcare, worthy healthcare, 240 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: valuable healthcare, affordable healthcare. Is government involvement or can the 241 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: market handle this? 242 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: The market can handle it. In fact, the market you 243 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: can handle a lot more than it does. There are 244 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: a couple things that you have to account for if 245 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: you want to have a system that is maximally light 246 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: on government and heavy on the private sector competing for 247 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: your business. And the first thing is that there's a 248 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: tendency towards monopolies in healthcare. So in a lot of 249 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: parts of the country, and in Indianapolis, you're fortunate, this 250 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 2: isn't as much of a problem in Indianapolis, but in 251 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: a lot of regions of the country, there's one hospital 252 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: system that basically owns the state or owns the metropolitan region. 253 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: So there's no competition if you, you know, if you 254 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: tear your knee or you have a stroke and you 255 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 2: need to go to the hospital, there's no one to 256 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: bargain with because there's one regional monopoly that basically owns 257 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 2: the entire state, and so they can charge whatever they want. 258 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: In a quote unquote not in really a market system, 259 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: but in a private system. It's no different than a 260 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: government monopoly. It's just a private monopoly, right, So that's 261 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: not great. And the other thing is you do have legitimately, 262 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: you know, people who are too poor to for health insurance, 263 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: or people who because of a health condition, let's say 264 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: somebody has a genetic disease or they're disabled or something 265 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 2: like that, where the cost of caring for them is 266 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: way greater than what they can afford. You're going to 267 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: you need some sort of way of helping those people 268 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: who otherwise can't help themselves. But having said that, you 269 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 2: can look around the world and there are plenty of 270 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: countries that do it way better than us. One I 271 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: like to talk about a lot that we talk about 272 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 2: it free op is Switzerland. Switzerland has universal health insurance. 273 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: It's all private. There's no government health insurance. All the 274 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: insurance compete for your business. They subsidize it for people 275 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: at the bottom end of the spectrum economically, but everyone 276 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 2: else is to shop for their own health insurance and 277 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: it works really, really well. They have access to any 278 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: doctor they want. A lot of the pharmaceutical and bidtech 279 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: companies are headquartered there because it's such an innovative ecosystem. 280 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: They have low taxes. That works pretty well, and I 281 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: think we have a lot to learn from Switzerland. If 282 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: you want to look at a system that could be 283 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 2: a model for American healthcare. 284 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: Reform, Ovic Groy freeop frooppfreeop dot org go check them 285 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: out for yourself. I appreciate Oovic taking the time to 286 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: be with us much more to get to I'm Tony Katz, 287 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: and this is Tony Katz today.