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Speaker 1: Allegations of public corruption with one of Mike Bron's political allies.

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Speaker 1: It's Kennel and Casey Show. I'm Rob Casey's here. This

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Speaker 1: is an incredible story and we have an incredible guest

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Speaker 1: to help tell it. And the story involves Tom Kleinhelter.

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Speaker 1: He is the sheriff of Dubois County, a I think

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Speaker 1: what most people would say, a close political ally of

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Speaker 1: Governor Mike Braun, and an investigation into public corruption the

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Speaker 1: state Police launched last year. That leadership at the time

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Speaker 1: felt was pretty strong. And then once Governor Braun became

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Speaker 1: the governor and a new state Police superintendent was named,

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Speaker 1: the case mysteriously went away. Who's fired up about it?

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Speaker 1: He's the former superintendent of Indiana State Police. You know him.

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Speaker 1: His name is Doug Carter. Doug joins us now Doug Carter.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Rob's good to be with you.

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Speaker 1: And this is the case that i'd been aware of

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Speaker 1: for quite a while now, and it had been on

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Speaker 1: my radar. And when I reached out to you and

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Speaker 1: we connected, you talked about the passion you had for

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Speaker 1: this and how important it was for the public to

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Speaker 1: know about it. And we'll get into the details of

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Speaker 1: it here in just a moment. But first of all,

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of let her by know. Obviously you're

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Speaker 1: not the superintendent of the Indiana State Police now, but

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Speaker 1: you were when this investigation was launched, and you felt

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Speaker 1: passionate enough about it. Now even though you got nothing

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Speaker 1: other than caring about the public involved in this, why

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Speaker 1: are you speaking out today.

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Speaker 2: Well, Rob, it's really pretty simple. I've always tried to

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Speaker 2: live my life above reproach and above even a perception

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Speaker 2: of impropriety, and a lot of things happened on my watch.

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Speaker 2: I was the superintendent for twelve years, the longest in

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Speaker 2: the history of the agency. I love the agency to

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Speaker 2: this day, and I love its people even more. And

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Speaker 2: we always tried to stand for what was right and

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Speaker 2: do things the correct way, no matter the outcome. So

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Speaker 2: we didn't have an anticipated outcome of almost anything. And

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Speaker 2: we've talked much about Delphi and about Flora, about a

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Speaker 2: lot of high profile cases, and there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of criticism at the time about a lot of things,

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Speaker 2: and that was okay. I wasn't afraid of that. But

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Speaker 2: even though I'm retired now, and by the way I retired,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to it with a forty year career, long time.

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Speaker 1: You're one of the few goes by choice, not by force.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, And as I watched a couple of

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Speaker 2: events that occurred, in cases that occurred on my watch,

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Speaker 2: I'm mortified at how they've been handled and I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to let the right thing to do is what

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Speaker 2: I'm doing. The wrong thing would be to do nothing.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I wanted to have Doug in today,

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Speaker 1: Casey because obviously this involves the public interest, the public trust,

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Speaker 1: allegations of violation of that, but also because we always

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Speaker 1: talk about people step it up and the need for

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Speaker 1: people to speak out. And I think in the case

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Speaker 1: of you, Doug, you gain nothing by doing this. It'll

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Speaker 1: cause you more headaches. First of all, you're associating with us.

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Speaker 1: That'll probably be a thing against your reputation. But you're

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Speaker 1: doing it because you're saying this is the right thing

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Speaker 1: to do, and you want to inspire others to do that.

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Speaker 2: I do, I do.

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Speaker 3: How do we get into it, Rob, Can we ask

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Speaker 3: Doug Carter, former superintendent of the ISP, what is the

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Speaker 3: job of the superintendent?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that would take an hour plus to talk about.

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Speaker 2: Essentially Essentially, that person runs a full service police agency

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Speaker 2: from north to southeast to west, seventeen eighteen hundred people,

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Speaker 2: bad things happening to good people every single day. The

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Speaker 2: legislative process, the political process, very complicated investigations, and then

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Speaker 2: the work behind the scenes to keep all that going,

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Speaker 2: keep it funded, and keep it trained, and make sure

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Speaker 2: those specialties are still there to support local agencies in

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Speaker 2: large part. But in rural Indiana we have an absolute presence.

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Speaker 2: So we have an urban model of a rural model,

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Speaker 2: and then a combination of the of those two. So

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Speaker 2: it's it's it's a it's a fast moving train every

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Speaker 2: single day, and it was. It was difficult, but also

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Speaker 2: the highlight of my life.

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Speaker 1: All right. So former State Police Superintendent Doug Carter is

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Speaker 1: our guest. Let's talk about the case. And this is

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Speaker 1: a case that has been somewhat in the public ais

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Speaker 1: although it seems there could be a lot more to

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Speaker 1: the story than what has been revealed. And that's what

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Speaker 1: you're here to talk about today. And this involves the

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Speaker 1: Dubois County Sheriff. His name is Tom klein Helter, and

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Speaker 1: an investigation that took place. By the way, he's somebody

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Speaker 1: that is very close to Governor Braun. If you google

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Speaker 1: those two names together, Tom clin Helter and Mike Braun,

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Speaker 1: you'll see, you know, a big endorsement for Governor Braun.

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Speaker 1: I believe he was in Governor Braun's campaign commercials. He's

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Speaker 1: the sheriff of his home county. And this involves an

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Speaker 1: investigation that you helped launch back last year while you

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Speaker 1: were still superintendent, involving potential public corruption. Tell us about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, essentially, Rob to go back even before that,

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Speaker 2: just very briefly, this is on the heels of the

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Speaker 2: Jamie Nolan investigation Clark County, which was the largest case

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Speaker 2: of public corruption in our history.

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Speaker 1: Now he is the former Clark County sheriff. He was

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Speaker 1: a big power broker. He is currently in prison for

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Speaker 1: various crimes against humanity. And you, the state Police, helped

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Speaker 1: see that investigation through.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the same detective that ran that case was assigned

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Speaker 2: to this one. Hugely complicated, hugely layered a lot of

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Speaker 2: money going back and forth in different places. So I

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Speaker 2: watched that case very carefully, and I watched it carefully

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Speaker 2: as a protective layer around those that were doing the work,

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Speaker 2: because some of this work was not very popular, but

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Speaker 2: it was right.

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Speaker 1: How hard is a public corruption case, whether it was

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Speaker 1: what you guys did with Knowl or whether this Dubois

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Speaker 1: County Sheriff Tom klein Helter, we're about to talk about

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Speaker 1: how hard is it to do a public corruption case?

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Speaker 1: For you guys the state police.

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Speaker 2: It's not hard if you do it the right way,

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Speaker 2: and you do it with one outcome, and that's the truth.

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Speaker 2: That you leave subjectivity out of it, You leave your

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Speaker 2: personal opinions out of it. And what you do is

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Speaker 2: through through a series of steps with a little bit

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Speaker 2: of technology, you find out the facts. We might exonerate

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Speaker 2: the individual, and we've done that before.

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Speaker 1: Your goal is to get the truth. You don't go

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Speaker 1: into like this investigation that you helped launch with the

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Speaker 1: client Helter or Noel or anyone wanting them to be guilty. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: you want to know the truth.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure, for sure. You can't make it up.

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Speaker 2: I've said said many times, I don't say what happened

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Speaker 2: or they did what anymore, but we will always we

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Speaker 2: always would have done the right thing for the right reasons.

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Speaker 2: And that's maybe an altruistic approach, but it's just the

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Speaker 2: way we have to do it without even the perception

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Speaker 2: of impropriety. But some of these cases are, up to

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Speaker 2: your question, lead to division, with political divide with individuals

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Speaker 2: not agreeing, and that makes them a bit difficult. But

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Speaker 2: we have to stay above all that, and that's what

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Speaker 2: the ice piece should always stay above that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's let's talk about client Helter, because obviously

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Speaker 1: the over you know, the thing holding over all this

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Speaker 1: is he is very close to the governor. He had

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Speaker 1: a very close relationship with the governor. The public can

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Speaker 1: see it. You have to take our word for it.

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Speaker 1: But tell us about client Halter, what he's alleged to

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Speaker 1: have done, and how he got on your radar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well he got on our radar because the State

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Speaker 2: Board of Accounts they do audits of units of government

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Speaker 2: all over Indiana, and we.

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Speaker 1: Talked about them the other day. Case that I talked

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Speaker 1: about them. Their job is to go in and look

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Speaker 1: at the finances of a local government entity. They do

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Speaker 1: them for school corporations, cities, towns, counties and make sure,

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Speaker 1: to the best of their ability, money is being spent properly.

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Speaker 2: Correct, that's right. And since they don't have law enforcement authority.

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Speaker 2: Now one of them is a retired trooper. One of

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Speaker 2: them is retired FBI agent. So these guys have extensive

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Speaker 2: knowledge and when they go in and do these audits,

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Speaker 2: it's not a source of intelligence. It's not a rumor,

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Speaker 2: it's not a conversation that occurred. They have articulable facts

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Speaker 2: that they believe leads to criminal behavior.

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Speaker 4: How are they received when they show up to do audit?

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Speaker 2: Generally pretty well. I was a sheriff, and I remember

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Speaker 2: when when they came in, and I was tried to

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Speaker 2: be as obviously as transparent as can be and that

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Speaker 2: there are no secrets here. Generally speaking, they're very receptive.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So they got wind right or did they just

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Speaker 1: find this through their regular audit?

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Speaker 2: It was a regular audit, okay. Yes.

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Speaker 1: So Kleinhalter as the sheriff of du Bois County, he

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Speaker 1: controls what's called the commissary. Can you just very briefly

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Speaker 1: explain what that is.

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Speaker 2: It's explained in Title thirty six in Indiana Code in

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Speaker 2: ill law, and it gives nine reasons that the commissary

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Speaker 2: how the commissary funds can be used. What is Commissary

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Speaker 2: funds are generated by the inmates purchasing tangible items in

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Speaker 2: the jail in the jail in the jail, and it's

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Speaker 2: meant for operation of the of the agency essentially.

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Speaker 1: And the sheriff then, and this is true in what

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Speaker 1: every county they oversee that the money that comes in

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Speaker 1: from the commissary they do.

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Speaker 2: And there's also a requirement that they communicate twice a

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Speaker 2: year with data and documents to their county Council, the

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Speaker 2: fiscal body of the county, so that they can see

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Speaker 2: how those expenses are being made.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so what did State Board of Accounts allegedly find

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Speaker 1: when it came to dealing with client Halter and the

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Speaker 1: commissary specifically travel?

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Speaker 2: There were some travel vouchers and travel expenses that came

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Speaker 2: up that drew significant attention by the State Board Accounts.

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Speaker 2: We knew nothing about this at the time. State Police,

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Speaker 2: the State Police, right, we get wind of this when

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Speaker 2: they reach out to us officially and say we think

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Speaker 2: there's a criminal predicate here, would you look into it

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Speaker 2: for us? They have a public document that's available to

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Speaker 2: all of our citizens that explains what they found during

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Speaker 2: that audit. So that's all public record.

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Speaker 1: State former Police State Superintendent Doug Carter is our guest,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about an investigation that he helped oversee last

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Speaker 1: year related to du Bois County Sheriff Tom Kleinhelter, who

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Speaker 1: is the sheriff du Bois County, appears to be close

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Speaker 1: associate of Governor Braun. The things that they the state

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Speaker 1: police uncovered, the State Board of Accounts uncovered, and then

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Speaker 1: how this investigation kind of ultimately took a bizarre turnt

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Speaker 1: at the end. All right, So Clientholter was allegedly doing

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Speaker 1: what with the money with the commissary, he was a bit.

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Speaker 2: Free wheeling with it a bit. I mean, there was

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Speaker 2: there were there were some questionable expenditures, which is generally

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Speaker 2: how this happens. And by the way, the vast majority

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Speaker 2: of sheriffs in Indiana a wonderful people. Yeah, so I'm

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Speaker 2: not categorizing everybody into this into this into this same

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Speaker 2: in the same category. But essentially was was was purchasing

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Speaker 2: travel flights, hotels, uh for both he and his wife

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Speaker 2: and and you just can't.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of money, right, I mean, we're talking

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Speaker 1: like trip to Arizona, Florida, Dubai. And he was trying

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Speaker 1: to correct me if wrong. He was trying to say

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Speaker 1: these are valid sheriff related type of that's true of

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Speaker 1: spenses now, Dubai seems very far away to be sheriffing,

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Speaker 1: but agreed the real issue was that his wife was

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Speaker 1: involved in the travel correct.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And then how the money was moving out of

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Speaker 2: commissary to personal accounts, personal accounts back to the commissary

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Speaker 2: personal credit cards, and that was all done through forensic

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Speaker 2: evaluation and through the process of the investigation, and it

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Speaker 2: was found that the money did not land where it

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Speaker 2: should have landed.

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Speaker 1: Now, according to fourteen news dot com who covered this,

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Speaker 1: they claimed nine thousand dollars of those funds that were

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Speaker 1: be investigated were travel expenses. As he said twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: one to twenty twenty three that it also showed that

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Speaker 1: the sheriff spent nearly eight thousand dollars on prepaid gift

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Speaker 1: cards and employee gift cards. These are all things that

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Speaker 1: the state Board of Accounts uncovered in their investigation.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: And there was a way he was reporting it that

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Speaker 1: was also a red flag as well, because the county,

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Speaker 1: the county government is supposed to oversee this, and there

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Speaker 1: were ways he was allegedly reporting this that might have

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Speaker 1: been to evade detection and was a.

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Speaker 2: Bit obstinate throughout the course of the of the process

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Speaker 2: with the Council on the commission I personally, I've talked

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Speaker 2: to one of the commissioners down there by design for

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Speaker 2: no nefarious reason, of course, but you just let him

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Speaker 2: know what we would do and why we would do this,

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Speaker 2: and the common theme seemed to be that he was

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Speaker 2: being a bit optionate, not wanting to report.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's take a break, our guests. This hour special

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Speaker 1: guest former Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter, joining us,

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Speaker 1: talking about an investigation last year into a close political ally,

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Speaker 1: or what I think many people would think is a

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Speaker 1: close political ally of Governor Mike Brown, the sheriff of

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Speaker 1: Dubois County, Tom Kleinhelter, and allegations of misuse of money,

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Speaker 1: an investigation Sheriff Carter helped launch when he was a

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Speaker 1: superintendent of State Police, and an investigation that mysteriously went away.

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Speaker 1: It's Kennella Casey Show ninety three, WIBC, Miss Kenne mccasey show.

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Speaker 1: Now if you're going to want WIBC, I'm Rob Caasey here,

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Speaker 1: Special Hour of Radio and special guest in studio. He

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Speaker 1: is the former superintendent of State Police here in Indiana, Carter,

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Speaker 1: and we are talking about this investigation that he helped

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Speaker 1: launch last year into allegations about misuse of money by

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Speaker 1: the du Boys County sheriff. His name is Tom Kleinhelter,

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Speaker 1: and he is I think what many people would consider

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Speaker 1: a close political ally of Governor Mike Brown. State Police

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Speaker 1: under Sheriff Carter felt like they had a strong investigation,

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Speaker 1: and once Governor Bron became the governor and a new

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Speaker 1: superintendent was in place, the investigation, the case itself mysteriously

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Speaker 1: went away. So if you are just joining us, we'll

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Speaker 1: pick up here with Sheriff Carter. This investigation that you

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Speaker 1: guys did as state police was triggered by an investigation

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Speaker 1: from the State Board of Accounts. The State Board of

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Speaker 1: Accounts then comes to you, the state Police, or they

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Speaker 1: come to you directly and say, we've uncovered these things.

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Speaker 1: We think, because we don't have any arrest power things

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Speaker 1: of nature, you need to investigate this.

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Speaker 2: That's correct, then what so we did? We accepted it.

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Speaker 2: We assigned an organized crime corruption detective to this specific case.

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Speaker 2: And that was back in July twenty twenty four. Just

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Speaker 2: last year.

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Speaker 3: Are there certain markers that you have to notice before

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Speaker 3: you'll say yes to doing it?

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Speaker 2: There are, there are a great question from the State

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Speaker 2: Board of Accounts. Generally, not because we have that we have

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Speaker 2: such a relationship with them and with their past of

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Speaker 2: law enforcement experience. Generally we take those every time. But

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Speaker 2: there are some if they're just speculative, if there's a rumor,

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Speaker 2: if we hear from just a single individual that I think, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is what's happening there, we won't initially start that.

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Speaker 2: We won't help local entities, agencies, police agencies do these

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Speaker 2: kinds of do this work with policy? As an example,

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Speaker 2: there's got to be a criminal predicate before we do this,

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Speaker 2: because we know it's very sensitive and this is a

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Speaker 2: big deal.

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Speaker 1: And obviously this is a big deal. This guy was

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Speaker 1: clearly tied into the governor in terms of being friends

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Speaker 1: and political allies. And it's the home county of well,

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Speaker 1: just the home county of course, right. Sure, so at

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Speaker 1: some point you guys launched the investigation. A special prosecutor

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Speaker 1: then becomes a part of this. How does that work?

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Speaker 2: That's right? That the court will will the pressing turns

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Speaker 2: Council get gets involved in that, and there there are

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Speaker 2: certain attorneys that are willing to do this kind of work.

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Speaker 2: So through the court, through through another group of prosecutors,

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Speaker 2: Holly Huntleston from Orange County was selected and she agreed

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Speaker 2: to take the case, which isn't by the way, it's

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Speaker 2: an adjoining county to do boys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so you uh, you assign a detective and

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Speaker 1: you weren't real happy with how you felt that investigation

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Speaker 1: was going. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Well, here's here's what happened, just very directly when that

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Speaker 2: investigation was assigned. It's pretty clear generally and with the

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Speaker 2: report that I direct from the State Board accounts, it's

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Speaker 2: pretty clear what's happened here.

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Speaker 1: So you can you get to see it right.

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Speaker 2: Opening might be, and especially on the heels of Clark

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Speaker 2: County and Jamie Nole, I wanted to make darn good

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Speaker 2: and sure we were doing everything absolutely correctly. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: so I would I would periodically get updates about where

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Speaker 2: it was, what was happening. And it didn't happen very quickly.

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Speaker 2: I think the initial detective had it five or six

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Speaker 2: weeks and hear he decided to go to Holly Huttleston.

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Speaker 2: The prosecutor and basically say nothing here. But there was

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Speaker 2: now one document created, no case report, no probable cause

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Speaker 2: affid David. There were not interviews done, there was no

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Speaker 2: forensic evaluation done, there were no search warrants done. And

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Speaker 2: come to find out, I don't think his heart was

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Speaker 2: in this. I'd like to think that it wasn't capricious.

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Speaker 2: And and and you.

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Speaker 1: Were and you were concerned enough about this. Uh. Former

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Speaker 1: Indiana State Superintendent Doug Carter is our guest. If you're

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Speaker 1: just joining us, we're talking about this case involving the

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Speaker 1: Dubois County sheriff whose name is Tom klein Helter, and

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Speaker 1: allegations of government corruption. Uh. And we'll take you through.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very very odd story. And and

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Speaker 1: Dougs and Grace is enough to come in and PI

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Speaker 1: phill Us in on today and where this case is

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Speaker 1: at now and some of the crazy turns it's taken.

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Speaker 1: So you were not happy with the job this detective

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Speaker 1: was doing. And you said somebody else got to look

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Speaker 1: at this because I've seen this case. There's more than

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Speaker 1: this here.

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Speaker 2: Well, and again I never thought there was anything that

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Speaker 2: fairy us to it at all at the time I

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Speaker 2: just thought it a long ways away. Jasper's a long

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Speaker 2: way some Indianapolis. Yeah, he was complaining about some discomfort.

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Speaker 1: The detective that had the case.

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Speaker 2: I had the case initially, and and I can't ever

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Speaker 2: of the hundreds of these we did while I was

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Speaker 2: there for twelve years, none of them ended this way.

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Speaker 2: This process, the normal process that we that we took,

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Speaker 2: stopped on this day when he went without any documentation

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Speaker 2: to sit down with a prosecutor and have that conversation.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to know who told him to do that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not typical.

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Speaker 2: No, No, it's not typical at all. No, it's not

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Speaker 2: typical at all, especially with nothing in our evidence, in

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Speaker 2: our in our case reporting system, or in our evidence

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Speaker 2: system to come to that conclusion without any I've never

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Speaker 2: been a detective, but I have. I got to represent

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Speaker 2: some really good ones. Yeah, and without search warrants, without interviews.

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Speaker 2: Even though there were interviews done, they were at best cursory.

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Speaker 1: All right, So you say I've seen this, I think

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Speaker 1: there's more here. For whatever reason, this guy is not

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Speaker 1: doing his job. Let's send in someone with basically an

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Speaker 1: impeccable record to take a look at this. Who did

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Speaker 1: you send in.

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Speaker 2: His name is Jeff Herron. He's the very best of us.

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Speaker 1: He did the Jamie nol investigation. Did people may remember

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Speaker 1: his name because it was public that Deshaun Reid.

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Speaker 2: You think Jeff Herron was one of the ones that

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Speaker 2: kept the city of Indianapolis from completely imploding.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you said, let's send the best of the

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Speaker 1: best down here. And what did he find?

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Speaker 2: Well, he started the He was first initially going introduce

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Speaker 2: to peer review of what the initial detective did or

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Speaker 2: didn't do. But when we realized that that that there

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Speaker 2: was really nothing done and the decision was made, he

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Speaker 2: started from scratch. So ten search warts. They're all public

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Speaker 2: through the du Bois County court system.

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Speaker 1: So he basically found this initial detective wasn't doing much

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Speaker 1: of anything.

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Speaker 2: He didn't, That's correct, he didn't, and.

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Speaker 1: That detective had gone to the special prosecutor without doing

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Speaker 1: much of any and basically saying that they she shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be filing charges that she shouldn't be Yes, And again,

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Speaker 1: look you can't say.

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Speaker 2: This I was I wasn't there during that conversation, right, sure,

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Speaker 2: that was the outcome.

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Speaker 1: And just a timeline on this again for people, you

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Speaker 1: got to remember this is what like late summer, fall

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Speaker 1: of last year, heading towards fall of last year.

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Speaker 2: This was in September.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so Braun. Braun is the Republican nominee for governor.

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Speaker 1: All the poles show he's likely to be the next governor.

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Speaker 1: This guy clearly has a very public, high profile relationship

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Speaker 1: with the governor. I think you have to just keep

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Speaker 1: reiterating that as part of this. Okay, so you send

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Speaker 1: the pro down, right, You send Jeff here an impeccable reputation.

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Speaker 1: He finds, Hey, there's a lot.

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Speaker 2: Here, there's a lot here. And again, those search warrants

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Speaker 2: are all public documents, and I hope people will take

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Speaker 2: a chance to review them. But he found a very

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Speaker 2: strong likelihood probable cause to believe that, yeah, theft, theft, perjury,

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Speaker 2: official misconduct, and conflict of interest. And this was after

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Speaker 2: a comprehensive three month interview, again with search warrants, data reviews,

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Speaker 2: personal interviews with counsel commissioner, the matron of the jail,

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Speaker 2: with the sheriff himself, and an eighty page probable cause

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Speaker 2: AFFI David was established over the course of the investigation itself.

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Speaker 4: Were you getting updates from Jeff Hearron throughout this process.

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Speaker 2: I was by design. Yeah, and again I was taking

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Speaker 2: a hit over that. People think that I had this

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Speaker 2: long standing friendship with Jeff Heron. I did not. I've

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Speaker 2: known him for thirty five years, but I didn't have

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Speaker 2: a personal relationship with him, and frankly, I still don't.

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Speaker 2: But we have a in the structure that we have.

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Speaker 2: We're a pretty structured agency and the tiers of control

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Speaker 2: are pretty significant. So for a lieutenant to be calling

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Speaker 2: me as a superintendent directly is a bit unusual, but

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Speaker 2: I've done it many times before with high profile cases, homicides,

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Speaker 2: whatever that might be. So Jeff had access to me personally.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure he was protected.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And the other part of this too is we

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Speaker 1: all the time look at stuff. We do this on

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Speaker 1: our show every single day exact. There's some pretty high

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Speaker 1: profile people we're talking about right now where we say

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Speaker 1: something appeal is very off with this government official. Can

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Speaker 1: someone please step up and look into this. You're doing it.

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Speaker 1: You being Doug Carter, the superintendent of state Police. You

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Speaker 1: know who this guy is connected to. You see the

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Speaker 1: initial investigation or lack thereof, you say, look the public

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Speaker 1: needs to know if there's nothing here, we need to

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Speaker 1: send a pro in. This guy finds all sorts of

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Speaker 1: stuff and then he goes to the What does he

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Speaker 1: does then? Hearing the new investigator, does he go to

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Speaker 1: the special parts and go, look, this guy wouldn't do

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Speaker 1: his job. Here's what we found. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I actually called the prosecutor and told her why we

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Speaker 2: were switching detectives. I called her and I told her,

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm sorry about this.

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Speaker 1: This is not how we do business, right.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to sign a guy that just got

436
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 2: off the of the a very high profile case in

437
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: Clark County, and I'm gonna have him take a peek

438
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 2: at this. And I when I talked to Jeff, I say, hey,

439
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 2: this is going to be easy. Boy. Was I wrong?

440
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 1: So what happens? What happens then?

441
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 2: So Jeff communicated with with with Holly Huddleston pretty routinely.

442
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: He's got all of the records of that communicate, whether

443
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: that be text messages, emails, his conversations with her personally

444
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 2: always had he had another detective with him or two.

445
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: And she was she was lovely. I mean, she was

446
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 2: very engaging, she was very respectful, very kind did.

447
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 1: She give him the impression that at any point was

448
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 1: she like, well, you're just out in left field on

449
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 1: the city.

450
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: Oh no, absolutely not. No, actually, and and maybe I'm

451
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: getting ahead of myself here, Rob but but uh, Lieutenant

452
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: Herron reached out to me in in November after the primary,

453
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: after the general.

454
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: Election, when Braun becomes the guy he was a.

455
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 2: Governor elect, and Jeff said to me, there's a much

456
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 2: more higher probability than not that criminal charges will be

457
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 2: coming here on this case.

458
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so I want I want to make sure we

459
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: get through this in the hour. If you're just hitting in.

460
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: Former State Police Superintendent Doug Carter is our guest. We're

461
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: talking about this investigation last year into the du Bois

462
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: County Sheriff Tom Kleinhelter involving public corruption. And okay, so

463
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: you're your detective talks as special prosecutor, just giving all

464
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,479
Speaker 1: signs of yeah, boy, good job, you know, thanks for

465
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: doing all this. And then there's a period right after

466
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: the election where just nothing happens.

467
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but there's a couple of important details that

468
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: led up to nothing happening, and one of them is

469
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 2: that after this problem cause was established, the kind of

470
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 2: Prosecutor read it and wanted Jeff to go back and

471
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: do a little bit more work on the intent. So

472
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 2: he did.

473
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: Is that normal?

474
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: Very normal?

475
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely?

476
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back and forth he was. Jeff would

477
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 2: communicate directly with the judges on his search warrants. An

478
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: enormous amount of work was done, enormous amount of work.

479
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 2: And I called Earl Good, who was Governor Holcombs chief

480
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: of staff. He's like a father to me. I loved

481
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 2: him and I miss him dearly. And I said, hey, Earl,

482
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: here's what we're finding out down there again on the

483
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 2: heels of a very high profile case in Clark County

484
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: with no and this is a governor's county, the governor

485
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: elects county. So I told Earl, I said, I really

486
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 2: think I need to let him know this. I don't

487
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,199
Speaker 2: know when this is going to happen, but there's a

488
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: lot strong likelihood that it will. Knowing he's been a

489
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 2: very successful candidate, he was very popular in the du

490
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: Bois County areas, hugely successful businesses. You're talking about Braun,

491
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: I'm talking about Braun.

492
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: So you said, I need to tell Braun that this

493
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: is going on with this dude, rrect.

494
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 2: So Earl said, absolutely, I agree with you. So I

495
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: called Josh Kelly, his chief staff, and Josh and I

496
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: had a respectful, candid, direct conversation. Didn't last very long.

497
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 2: He thanked me for letting him know and that he

498
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: would let the governor elect know what was happening. And

499
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: we hung up, and then radio silence. It wasn't long

500
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: after that. It was a radio silence.

501
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 3: Okay, So, because again I want to try to make

502
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: d silence from the prosecutor.

503
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 2: Jeff was having a hard time getting a hold of her.

504
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: All right, let's take another break if you're just joining us.

505
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: Our guest this hour, former State police Superintendent Doug Carter.

506
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: We're talking about this investigation into the Dubois County Sheriff

507
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: Tom Kleinhelter, like what many people would consider a political

508
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: ally close political ally of Governor Mike Braun, an investigation

509
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: about misuse of money and a case that went away

510
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: when Governor Broun became the governor. Kennel Casey Show ninety

511
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: three WIBC Kennelly Casey Show, a Rob Casey here Special

512
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 1: hour Radio. Our guest this hour is former State Flee

513
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,239
Speaker 1: Superintendent Doug Carter. We are talking about an investigation he

514
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: helped launch last year into the Duboys County Sheriff Thom

515
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: Kleinhelter involving misuse of public money. Klein Helter, many people

516
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: believe a close political ally of Governor Mike Braun, and

517
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: a case that despite the fact last year when Superintendent

518
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: Carter was still superintendent, he and the investigator but was

519
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: a very strong case, went away once Superintendent Carter stopped

520
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: being the superintendent of State Police. Governor Braun became the

521
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: governor and put a new person in that position. First

522
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: of the year. You say, hey, I've dealt with you

523
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: people long enough. I'm done being the state superintendent and

524
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go have happiness for once.

525
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: Well, those are your words, certainly not mine.

526
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: And so Braun appoints a new state Police superintendent. He did,

527
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: and on the heels of that, then there comes this announcement.

528
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: Now this is keep mind, we've had silence on this

529
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: case for what appears to be a relative silence for months,

530
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: and then according to the fourteen news dot com website,

531
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: this was published at the end of February. It is

532
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: announced that there will be no charges filed against the

533
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: du Boys County Sheriff Tom Kleinhelter, what was your response

534
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 1: that obviously you're out of the game by that point,

535
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: you're not calling the shots anymore. When you heard this announcement, I.

536
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: Was, I was so disappointed, not in the outcome. Uh well,

537
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 2: I guess it would have been the outcome because I

538
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: knew the facts that led up to this. So I

539
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: ended up calling Holly.

540
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: The social prosecut Discounty. Yeah, I did.

541
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: But you know something else that I missed here, Rob,

542
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: There there was a meeting with Holly Huddleston and the

543
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: initial detective on this case. They didn't do any of

544
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: the work right that you had to replace and the

545
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: sheriff and his attorney to decide whether or not charges

546
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: would come the alleged offender.

547
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: Yes, the client Helter, The Boys County sheriff is at

548
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: a meeting with the state police officer and the prosecutor.

549
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: And the state police officer that didn't do the work

550
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: that Jeff Heron did.

551
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: Is that normal?

552
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: No? Absolutely not. It's not normal. The alleged perpetrator and

553
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 2: even and then he was even allowed to put out

554
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: a press release that he was essentially exonerated that I

555
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: don't think was completely faction.

556
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: Let's touch that quick. Hey, hang on a second, this

557
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: is really important. They basically let client to put out

558
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: a press release telling the public he was not going

559
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: to be charged.

560
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: Yes, it's successible via is online.

561
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: Is that normal?

562
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: No? Absolutely not, it's not normal. I didn't know that occurred.

563
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 2: I did not know that meeting occurred. And I asked

564
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: when I called Holly, she took my call.

565
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 4: When did that meeting occur?

566
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 3: Uh?

567
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 2: It was after I left.

568
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: So you have a new superintendent. Radio silence, bronze guy

569
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: gets in there, and then all of a sudden, what

570
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: you feel is a pretty if I'm using the wrong words,

571
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: tell me you feel it's a pretty open and shutcase

572
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: into what's going on with this alleged public corruption with

573
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: the two boys Kenny Sheriff. All of a sudden, not

574
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: only are no charges filed, he gets to write his

575
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: own press really saying, hey, look at me, I'm out

576
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: of here.

577
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: He even references two state police investigations, which is just

578
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: again disingenuous. That's not accurate. Yes, that's correct. Okay, so

579
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: you're My response was initially sent. I initially sent an

580
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: email or a text message to Anthony Scott, who is

581
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: the new superintendent right, and Chris Hill. I think I

582
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: copied Chris on that, but he's the number number two guy.

583
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: And I said Anthony something like I'm gladly would share it.

584
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: I can't believe this happened. I'm going to respond to this,

585
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: but I don't want to get ahead of you. Let

586
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: me know what you're going to do to protect and

587
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: defend these deck detectives that work tirelessly on this.

588
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: And this may be a stupid question, but when a

589
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: prosecutor says, I mean, no, matter how obvious something is,

590
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: if a prosecutor says no, that's it, or I go home.

591
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: Well some would say that I say that's not the

592
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: way it should be.

593
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should at least have.

594
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: A sit down, have a conversation about it. But he

595
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: was nobody ever contacted Jeff Heron.

596
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: They didn't have a conversation. We did in your the

597
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: main guy.

598
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: No, he wasn't even invited to the meeting.

599
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wild.

600
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: He wasn't even invited to the meeting.

601
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 4: So how did he find out the same way everyone

602
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: else did?

603
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: He was called by as I understand that he was

604
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: called by the initial detective and told to return Klein

605
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: Helter's property, phone.

606
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: All the stuff, what they were gathering evidence from. You said,

607
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: what are you talking about now? Correct me if i'm

608
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can talk about this or not.

609
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: But there was a lot of communication between clin Helter

610
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: and Braun that was found.

611
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there there were messages between the two of

612
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: them over the compared this period of time. I didn't

613
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: find that to be necessarily unusual. Okay, but I thought

614
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: this could be problematic because of the relationship moving forward.

615
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: But we got to stay above it. We've got to

616
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: stay above it.

617
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, So just real quick and then we'll try to

618
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: get this wrapped up. Make sure we get it done

619
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,239
Speaker 1: here in the hour. So if you're just joining us,

620
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: former state please Superintendent Doug Carter is our guest. We'll

621
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: talk about this investigation that took place last year involving

622
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say a guy who's pretty

623
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: close with the governor, the du Boys County Sheriff Tom Kleinhelter.

624
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: You can see the endorsements that are online. He was

625
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: in the I believe he was in the advertisement for

626
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: the governor and this investigation that the former Supertitt Carter

627
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: helped oversee involving alleged public corruption and Tom Kleinhelter what

628
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: he felt his investigator felt was a pretty open and

629
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: shut case, a case that once Doug left and the

630
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: governor pointed a new superintendent magically just kind of went away.

631
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: A lot of red flags involving how it went away,

632
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: and then you talked to the new superintendent and what happened.

633
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: Well, I tried to talk to him, but he wouldn't

634
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: talk to me about.

635
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: It, like he wouldn't take your caller. He was like,

636
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: I'm just like no on the phone, Like, what do

637
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: you mean.

638
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: Everything that I've done, I've done with writing in writing, yea.

639
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: I tried to have a and I love this guy.

640
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: I was very very close to him. I don't know

641
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: what happened. I just don't know what happened. But I

642
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: tried to communicate with him, and now it's now it's

643
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: all in writing to make sure that it's true, that

644
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: there's a record of it. But he never would acknowledge

645
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: anything about this case to me ever, never asked me

646
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: any questions about it other than rumor and speculation about

647
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: my relationship with the detective and that my disliked for

648
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: the sheriff and I don't even know the sheriff. I

649
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: maybe had five conversations with him in my lifetime, and

650
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 2: many of those conversations were helping him get on Law

651
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: Enforcement Training Board as one of the as one of

652
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: the board members.

653
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:08,479
Speaker 1: Okay, so the prosecutors then, under somewhat mysterious circumstances, says no, nothing,

654
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: everything go home. They order your guy Heron to give

655
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: this sheriff all his stuff back, and then they start

656
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: going after the investigator they did, Jeff Herron.

657
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: And it's sickening.

658
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: Now, keep in mind this is and this is the

659
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: kind of the the crescendo of this whole thing, because

660
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: this is very weird. This is a guy who's been

661
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: in law enforcement thirty plus years, super distinguished career, was

662
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: helping lead the Jamie Nole investigation, which was very successful.

663
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: He was at the heart of the Deshaun Reid investigation,

664
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: which was very successful. Like you pointed out, city did

665
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: not burn, there was no rioting. The thorough investigation they

666
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: did was very key. And then they start going after

667
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: him for.

668
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: What hundred homicides, school shootings, violent crimes against kids. This

669
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: guy is unbelievable.

670
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, they what are this And it's his own guys, right,

671
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: the state police start going after him.

672
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: For what The superintendent and the colonel started going after him.

673
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: The guy pointed by Braun, correct, Okay or what.

674
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: That's a very good question. It's a very good question.

675
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: But they they they they started an internal investigation on him.

676
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: They just ended here within the last couple of weeks.

677
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: Huh.

678
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: I'm continuing to learn about that. That end, he got

679
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: moved to a job that doesn't matter. He was suspended

680
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: for two days. He can't teach anymore. He can't teach

681
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: homicide classes, he can't teach school shooting classes, he can't

682
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: teach child crimes against kid classes. I mean, and it's

683
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: there's there's zero excuse. I had hundreds of disciplinary matters

684
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: while I was the superintendent, and I never did anything

685
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: because I could. I did everything because I should. And

686
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: Anthony Scott sat in those meetings with me when we

687
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: were deciding discipline to talk about what should happen if

688
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: if Jeff did what they've accused him of doing, and

689
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: found that he did they thought they think he did,

690
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: it would have been at most a letter of reprimands.

691
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: What do they even think he did? I don't know.

692
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: He sent and he sent an email to the prosecuting

693
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: attorney that I have a copy of, and it did

694
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: much kinder that I would have written. And it basically says,

695
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: why did you do this? Why did you have this

696
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: meeting without me and come to this conclusion our relationships

697
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: are important? I'm fair phrasing because it's four or five

698
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: paragraphs long. Sure, I would really like to sit down

699
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: with you. And I have had prosecutors before, not file

700
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: and it doesn't upset me. But I want to know

701
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 2: what we need to do to be better? What did

702
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: we do wrong?

703
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: And he got demoted for that.

704
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: He didn't get demoted, but he got reassigned.

705
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: Reassigned ye okay, yes, because.

706
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: They said it was disrespectful. There's nothing disrespectful about this letter.

707
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 2: And it should terrify every single state police officer in

708
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: Indiana to think that's the bar of how we can

709
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: talk and treat people.

710
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, because and then I asked you this, and you know,

711
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: like my old man was in law, federal law enforcement

712
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: for twenty years. He worked for federal judges. Obviously they

713
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: were the boss, right, you'd never questioned the judges whatever? Yes, yes, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. Whatever,

714
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: but the state Police don't work for a prosecutor. You're

715
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: entitled to ask, hey, we thought this was an open

716
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: set case, and you seem to be on board with

717
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: us the whole time.

718
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: You were helping me all along.

719
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: And then Braun becomes the governor and all of a sudden,

720
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: this all goes away.

721
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 2: What happened, That's what he wanted to know, That's all

722
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: he wanted to know. They said he made derogatory comments

723
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: about the initial detective. All he did was say the truth,

724
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: tell the truth about what the initial detective didn't do,

725
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: and he documented it as he should as a part

726
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 2: of the criminal proceeding. And then and then the lastly,

727
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 2: that he shared law enforcement information with people outside of

728
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 2: the outside of the ISP, and those are the county

729
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: commissioners and council into Boise County that he had to

730
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: work with to develop his probable cause.

731
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like we just got a couple minutes left,

732
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: because again, I want to make sure we get the

733
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: full hour. It sounds like the public should be outraged

734
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: about this.

735
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: They absolutely should, and the State Police is better than this.

736
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: We should be above all of this. And he's got

737
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 2: some questions to answer.

738
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: So let me kind of sum this up because people

739
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: will hear this on podcasts. They will be able to

740
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: listen linearly. Some people have been coming and going through

741
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: out the course of the interview. If I missed anything

742
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: from your perspective, you tell me, then I'm going to

743
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: give you the final final word on something. So basically

744
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: the track record of the case is this. An independent group,

745
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: the State Board of Accounts catches what they believe are,

746
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, bad expenditures by the

747
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 1: Dubois County sheriff related for money from the commissary. They

748
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: feel strong enough about it they give it to you

749
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: guys at state Police. You look at it and agree, hey,

750
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: this looks really bad. You ultimately end up putting one

751
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: of your best guys on it. He looks at it

752
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: and says, yeah, that looks really bad. He recommends that

753
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: this special prosecutor file these charges based on this. The

754
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: special prosecutor appears to be completely on board until Mike

755
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: Braun becomes the governor bron who clearly has some sort

756
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: of relationship with this guy. And then all of a sudden,

757
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: once you're no longer the state superintendent and Braun is

758
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: the governor, then magically, all the charges go away, and

759
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: your guy who is investigating the case gets in trouble.

760
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: They ruined his career, Rob, They've ruined They've ruined his career.

761
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 2: After an eighty page probable cause Affidavid, there are most

762
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 2: detectives that will go career never write one half that long.

763
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: This is eighty pages of facts. Eighty pages of facts.

764
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: And okase. The frustrating thing here is we beg people

765
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: to investigate public corruption, we beg people to step up

766
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: and do something, and we're talking about this with some

767
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: pretty prominent people right now in this state that are

768
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: in prominent positions. And he does it, he being Doug Carter,

769
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: and he puts his best guy on it, or one

770
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: of his best guys, and he says, yeah, it's here,

771
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, with no explanation, it

772
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: all just goes away.

773
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 3: Doug, you said something earlier, you said he's got some

774
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 3: questions to answer?

775
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 4: Who is he?

776
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: Well, I may I make. I came to some conclusions

777
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 2: based on what I know, and a logical conclusion would

778
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: with anybody that reads this or sees it or hears it,

779
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: would be that there was some level of interference someplace

780
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: by either those in the governor's orbit that appoint the

781
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: superintendent of the State Police, or between the State Police Alliance.

782
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 2: They were working very close with the alliance, and now

783
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: the leadership of the State Police came from the alliance.

784
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: So and I know that they've been talking about this

785
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 2: for months in the end of twenty twenty four. I

786
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 2: didn't know it at the time. And that's okay. Not

787
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 2: mad about that is somebody in those orbits talked about this.

788
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: That's the that's the only logical conclusion, and it's irrefutable.

789
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 2: It is irrefutable that there wasn't somebody that said stop it,

790
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: stop it if.

791
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: You were and we'll get you out of here on this,

792
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: if you were still the state superintendent and or Mike

793
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: Brown was not the governor. Do you believe this case

794
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: was strong enough that this guy would have been prosecuted? Doug,

795
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for coming in and doing

796
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: this today because this is the thing we begged the

797
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: public for and you don't have any reason to have

798
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: to do this. It doesn't affect you one way or

799
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: another other than you want the truth. And these are

800
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: the sort of stories people need to know about, and

801
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: your reputation is above reproach and we joked the first

802
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: time we met. I said I've been pretty mean to

803
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: you on the air, and he said, I don't care

804
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: about that. You're just doing your job. So, man, thank

805
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: you for coming in and telling us about this today. Yeah, absolutely, it's.

806
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: This is really important to me. Again, I want to

807
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: remind your listeners, this is about the top two or

808
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: three people on the ISP that were appointed by the governor.

809
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 2: This is not about the rank and file. I'm very,

810
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,439
Speaker 2: very worried about them. If this is a bar they're

811
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 2: going to set to ruin careers, they should be terrified.

812
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 2: Jeff Herron might have to go out and raise money

813
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 2: to defend himself and that is just absolutely unconscionable to me.

814
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 2: So there was a time that I loved Anthony Scott

815
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: and we were together a long time. I have no

816
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: idea who he is today. And if I was the governor,

817
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: if there's nothing to this, I would be asking him

818
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: to answer to compelling him to answer some of these

819
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: questions about why that happened. And it's so painful for

820
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: me to say that, but it's just it's the reality

821
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: of the difference between right and wrong in a world

822
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: in which we live that's so complicated, so convoluted, and

823
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 2: fingers being pointed. This is one of those that's very simple.

824
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: Either they did or they didn't, and if they, if they,

825
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: if they, if they did, then answer these compelling questions.

826
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: But they ruined somebody along the way, and it's unforgivable.

827
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Doug, thank you for your time. Man, thanks for

828
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: telling the story, and you're welcome back anytime.

829
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me.

830
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 4: It is Kendall and Casey. It's ninety three WIBC.

831
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 5: Well, we've mentioned before it has definitely been a difficult

832
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 5: week for jen X. Started the week off with Malcolm

833
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 5: Jamal Warner passing away theo from The Cosby Show, and

834
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 5: then Ozzy Osbourne and that was followed by Hulk Hogan

835
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 5: and then yesterday it was announced that Chuckman Mangione passed

836
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 5: away as well.

837
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 3: And now we can add another one to the list.

838
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 3: George Koymans. He was the guitarist and co founder of

839
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 3: the Dutch band Golden ear Ring. Of course, he co

840
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 3: wrote Radar Love. He also wrote and did lead vocals

841
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 3: for that song that we just heard, twilight Zone. He

842
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 3: passed away at the age of seventy seven, he had

843
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 3: been suffering from complications of als. He was diagnosed in

844
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 3: twenty twenty. He retired from the band soon after that.

845
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 3: So here is twilight Zone. Feels like we're living in

846
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 3: that right now, doesn't it.

847
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,959
Speaker 4: It's the Kendallly Casey Show. It's ninety three WIBC

848
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: About