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Speaker 1: Casey. There's an interesting report out about how much nonprofit

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Speaker 1: hospitals yeah, and the people who run them in the

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Speaker 1: state of Indiana supposedly made.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's with some state subsidies. So taxpayers are

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Speaker 2: on the hook for part of this. And it really

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Speaker 2: shows how you and I got into the wrong business

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Speaker 2: if we wanted to make money.

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Speaker 1: Well, we saw this yesterday without what some of the

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Speaker 1: fair people are are doing much better than us, and

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Speaker 1: now we should have gotten the nonprofit hospital business. So

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Speaker 1: this is interesting. It's Kennlly Casey show. By the way,

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Speaker 1: I'm Rob, that's Casey. People think nonprofit hospital or hear

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Speaker 1: the phrase nonprofit hospital. In fact, this actually came up

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Speaker 1: in the legislative session it did this year, and about

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Speaker 1: how you can't touch these non profit hospitals or how

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Speaker 1: they'll cut services potentially to people if you do these

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Speaker 1: these healthcare reforms.

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Speaker 2: Well you might even remember how some of the CEOs

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Speaker 2: were sending out emails to stakeholders guiding them who to

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Speaker 2: vote for in the governor election. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this is fascinating because again people think nonprofit hospital,

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Speaker 1: they think some little podunk kind of place that's you know,

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Speaker 1: the lights are hanging on by a thread. And the

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Speaker 1: reality is, according to this report, no, many of these

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Speaker 1: places are doing quite well, and the people who run

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Speaker 1: them are doing quite well. And you, Casey, have found

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Speaker 1: a very special guest to tell us all about it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Actually this is Peter Pitts. He's joining us. He is

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Speaker 2: the former FDA commissioner and he's also with the Center

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Speaker 2: for Medicine in the Public Interest. And Peter, let's talk

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Speaker 2: about this report and how it reveals Indiana's nonprofit hospitals

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Speaker 2: contribute to the rising healthcare costs that we're all experiencing.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to start with some of the key findings

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Speaker 2: from the report. And you stated that just forty seven

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Speaker 2: percent of community investment was allocated to actual charity care.

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Speaker 2: So how much do you think is an appropriate amount

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Speaker 2: that should be going to charity care?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, the first thing is people say, you

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Speaker 3: know why every folks you on nonprofit hospitals. You know,

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Speaker 3: these the good doers in our healthcare system. But the

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Speaker 3: fact of the matter is sixty percent of hospitals are

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Speaker 3: not for profit and it's like, what you know, Willie Sutton,

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Speaker 3: the bank rupper, said that's where the money is. So

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Speaker 3: that's and that's certainly where the problem is. You know,

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Speaker 3: these not for profit hospitals get billions of twenty five

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Speaker 3: billion dollars annually nationally in tax incentives, and yet they

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Speaker 3: don't provide an equal amount of community care. In fact,

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Speaker 3: what's kind of embarrassing is that Indiana University Health has

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Speaker 3: the honor of being the fifth largest that's called fair

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Speaker 3: share deficit in the United States. So they collect one

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Speaker 3: hundred and thirty six million dollars more in tax credits

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Speaker 3: and benefits for being a nonprofit than they actually pay

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Speaker 3: out in community care. That's that's that's unacceptable.

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Speaker 1: Peter Pitts is our guest. He is the former commissioner

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Speaker 1: for the FDA. We're talking about how much nonprofit hospitals

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Speaker 1: and the people who run them in the state of

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Speaker 1: Indiana are making. And I think that's the other part

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Speaker 1: of it too, Peter, I Ben go into these people

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Speaker 1: are at the tippy top of these nonprofit hospitals.

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Speaker 2: They're not.

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Speaker 1: They're not in the soup kitchen line.

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Speaker 3: They're not. I mean, some of these numbers are pretty substantial.

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Speaker 3: Dennis Murphy, who's the CEO of Indiana University Health, annual

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Speaker 3: compensation in twenty twenty three four million dollars seven zero.

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Speaker 3: How much that's that? Four million, nine hundred and seventy

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Speaker 3: thousand and thirty nine dollars almost five million dollars. So

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Speaker 3: a sneeze under five million dollars.

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Speaker 2: Just a sneeze case for a year.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know what your contract is, but I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing it doesn't say four point nine million.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, we always wonder who is able to

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Speaker 2: buy Jim mersees twelve million dollar home. People like this

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Speaker 2: who make five million dollars a year. Do you have another?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Brian Mills, who has Community Health Network two million,

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Speaker 3: nine to five to almost three sneeze under three million dollars.

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Speaker 3: Kevin Lay? Who's Kevin Lay? Who the president of Franciscan

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Speaker 3: Alliance two million, sixty six five So he's pulling up there,

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Speaker 3: he's the guy looking for government benefits. He's only running

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Speaker 3: two million, sixty six five zero zero waights. Okay, So

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Speaker 3: these are huge numbers.

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Speaker 1: So, Peter, I was going to ask you because in

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Speaker 1: Casey I just said, there was this big brew haha

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Speaker 1: this year about healthcare reform in Indiana, and there was

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Speaker 1: all these this conversation about well, if you do this

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Speaker 1: or you do that, these rural hospitals, these county hospitals,

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Speaker 1: these non profit hospitals, they're going to be basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: turning the lights out and shuttering the doors, and people

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Speaker 1: want of access to care like are are are these

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Speaker 1: the exception to the rule that you're laying out or

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Speaker 1: are we seeing all over the place that these non

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Speaker 1: profit hospitals across the state are doing quite well and

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Speaker 1: most mortly the people who run them, well.

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Speaker 3: You know, obviously the biggest players are are tacking the

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Speaker 3: most advantage of the system, and the smaller hospitals suffered

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Speaker 3: because of that. And you mentioned the Indiana hospital, I

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Speaker 3: mean Indiana you know, had to bid bill you know,

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Speaker 3: one thousand and four and it's it's threatened not for

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Speaker 3: profit status for hospitals charging more than two hundred percent

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Speaker 3: of Medicare, and the IU Health CEO email stakeholders to

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Speaker 3: vote against that. You know, you know, they're they're they're

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Speaker 3: they are acting like for profit hospitals. They're acting they

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Speaker 3: are fee based hospitals, which means that they're getting paid

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Speaker 3: for all the things that they do rather than any

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Speaker 3: rather than the value they provide. So it's feed based

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Speaker 3: versus value based. And you think that for a not

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Speaker 3: for profit entity, they'd be focused on the outcome of

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Speaker 3: the patient more than for profit hospitals, and that's not

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Speaker 3: the case.

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Speaker 2: Well, some hospitals say that they need the big profits

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Speaker 2: and the high paid to run well and hire top talent.

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Speaker 2: What's your response to that.

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Speaker 3: I'm all for paying top talent top dollar, but at

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Speaker 3: a certain point it becomes ridiculous. You know, the mission

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Speaker 3: of a not for profit hospital, you know, a huge

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Speaker 3: part of that mission is to provide community services and

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Speaker 3: charity care. And yet many of these hospitals don't want

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Speaker 3: to do that. They want to go after insured individuals,

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Speaker 3: wealthy individuals, where they can collect more fees. And that's

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Speaker 3: true across the board, certainly the largest Indianapolis hospitals, and

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Speaker 3: they've they've got to refocus their mission. You know, they

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Speaker 3: can't be looking at gaining profit by lobbying, by advertising

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Speaker 3: to wealthy patients. They have to focus on their core mission,

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Speaker 3: which is why they receive these billions of dollars in

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Speaker 3: tax incentives.

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Speaker 2: Peter Pitts is joining us. He's the former FDA commissioner,

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Speaker 2: also with the Center for Medicine and the public interest,

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Speaker 2: and part of your report says that these non for

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Speaker 2: profit hospitals are contributing to the rising healthcare costs that

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Speaker 2: we all experience. So I would like for you to

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Speaker 2: speak on these subsidies that they receive.

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Speaker 3: So first, you have realized that over the last twenty

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Speaker 3: five years, hospital prices have gone up two hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty percent. Think about that, two hundred and fifty percent.

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Speaker 3: That's triple the rate of general economic inflation. At eighty

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Speaker 3: percent of nonprofit hospitals nationally spent less on financial assistance

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Speaker 3: and community investment than the estimated value of their tax breaks.

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Speaker 3: That's what a fair share deficit means. Think about this.

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Speaker 3: So that's twenty five point seven billion dollars in deficits.

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Speaker 3: That's enough to care to pay off all the medical

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Speaker 3: depths of everybody in California, Texas, New New York, and Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 3: It's an enormous number. And in Indiana, not for profit

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Speaker 3: hospitals received about one point three billion dollars in tax benefits.

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Speaker 3: Despite that huge amount of money, only sixty six percent

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Speaker 3: of Indiana not for profit hospitals at a fair share deficit.

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Speaker 3: So sixty six percent of all the hospitals in Indiana

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Speaker 3: are bringing in more than they're sharing with the community.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and I think and I got about a

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Speaker 1: minute left here, but Peter, I think it was the

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Speaker 1: EU Health guy who's making almost five million dollars.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yep?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So think about if he made three and a

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Speaker 1: half million, certainly not going to be hurting. Think of

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Speaker 1: all the healthcare they could have provided to poor indigen people, right.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the kind of what you're getting at,

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Speaker 1: is there's no reason for a guy to be making

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Speaker 1: that much money when the mission is supposed to be

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Speaker 1: to serve the poor, the indigen the hurting in our society.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And this is not disrespect the doctors

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Speaker 3: and the nurses and people that work on the erchisting

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Speaker 3: units in hospitals do yeomen's work. Yeah they are they

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Speaker 3: are healthcare heroes. But I think they are really being

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Speaker 3: betrayed by their upper management who are taking these huge salaries,

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Speaker 3: who are not doing the right thing. If you took

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Speaker 3: all the Indiana Fair to Share deficits, which equals about

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Speaker 3: the one hundred and thirty six million dollars a year,

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Speaker 3: you could erase sixty six thousand, five and eighteen individual

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Speaker 3: medical debts for Hoosiers in Indiana. Think about that, over

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Speaker 3: sixty six thousand Hoosiers could have the medical debts you

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Speaker 3: race if these hospitals did the right thing.

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Speaker 1: All right, Peter Man, this is great stuff. Casey, take

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Speaker 1: us home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Peter, where can people find the report or more

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Speaker 2: information about you?

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Speaker 3: Thanks for asking out on both and certainly for the

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Speaker 3: report is now online at our website, which is CMBI

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Speaker 3: dot org Center from Medicine in the Public Interest, and

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Speaker 3: you know, check it out. Look at the numbers. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: the numbers speak for themselves. There's got to be some

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Speaker 3: change going on here.

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Speaker 2: That's CMPI dot org. Thank you Peter Pitts for joining us.

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Speaker 2: It is Kendel and Casey on ninety three WIBC