1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: Live from Vall Hartbeiner and the Crossroads of America. 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 2: It's Tony Katz today. 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: I am convinced that the violence is here, not that 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: it's coming. And very often you'll hear people say, well, 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: violence is coming from the political left, and look how 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: they're acting here, and look at they're acting there, and 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: look at what they're promoting here, and. 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 2: All those things are true. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: We see violence all around, and we see no condemnation 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: from the political left at all. But I don't understand 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: how we could possibly engage this as a conversation of 12 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: what is coming instead of what is here and what 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: took place at the church in Saint Paul, Minnesota on 14 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Day. Well, I don't think there's anything 15 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: that could better explain it, Tony Katz, Tony Katz today, 16 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: Good to be with you. William Jacobson joins us right now, 17 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: Cornell Law professor, the mind behind the Legal Insurrection dot com. 18 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: And you have got the peace right here, sir. 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: This is anti ice church invaders, chanted fabricated BLM hands up, 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: don't shoot slogan, which is an homage to the lies 21 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: of Ferguson and Michael Brown. Those lies eventually got former 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: Representative Corey Bush elected to Congress. 23 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: But let's start where we start. 24 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: This is Don Lemon, former CNN anchor, and a group 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: of activists where. 26 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: Don Lemon knew what was happening. 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: Based on his own video admission, and they decided to 28 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: walk into a church interrupt the prayer service by and 29 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: these are my words, screaming at parishioners that they're not 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: doing enough for Somali immigrants. 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 2: Do I have the basis correct? 32 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 3: Well, the anti ICE protesters invaded a church, and according 33 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: to them, they were invading the church disrupting the service 34 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 3: because they claimed that the priest had some sort of 35 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 3: connection to ICE or as at least tolerant device. I 36 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 3: don't even know if that's true, but it's irrelevant because 37 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 3: they set out to and did disrupt a religious service. 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: Don Lemon was with them, and we'll get into that 39 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 3: he's claiming. 40 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 4: He was just a journalist. 41 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 3: We'll tell that to the people who were prosecuted on 42 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 3: January sixth, who claimed they entered the Capitol just to videotape. 43 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 3: That didn't fly with the federal government back then, and 44 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 3: I don't know if it'll fly now. 45 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 4: But that's a fact issue. 46 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: Why was he there, And I think that will be disputed, 47 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 3: but that's what it was. It was a deliberate attempt 48 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: to destruct a religious service because they felt that the 49 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 3: chaplain was too friendly to Ice, and that implicates a 50 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 3: whole bunch of federal laws that potentially subject them to prosecution. 51 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 2: Now, I want to. 52 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: Get into the legal part here. When I speak to you, 53 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: I always do. But you bring up a very interesting 54 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: point if indeed they're walking into this church with the 55 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: ever popular lie of hands up, don't shoot, which is 56 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: not what happened in the case of Ferguson, is not 57 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: what happened in the case of Michael Brown at all. 58 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: Well, we'll caught my attention immediately when I saw the 59 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 3: videotape of them in the church, was the hands up, 60 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: don't shoot. And I recognize that from back in twenty 61 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: fourteen because a legal insurrection. We covered the Ferguson riots 62 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 3: very closely. We covered the Michael Brown shooting very closely, 63 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 3: and I've written about it probably a half dozen to 64 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 3: maybe a dozen times since then because the hands up, 65 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: don't shoot keeps coming back, and hands up, don't shoot 66 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: was the fabricated story that even the Obama Justice Department 67 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 3: found had no evidence to support it that Michael Brown 68 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: was shot by a policeman with his hands up saying 69 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 3: don't shoot. That story, that narrative gave rise to the 70 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 3: organized Black Lives Matter movement. People need to understand, Black 71 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 3: Lives Matter came into being based on that tale, but 72 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 3: that tale was a fabrication. In fact, what the local 73 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 3: prosecutors and Obama's Justice Department found is that Michael Brown 74 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 3: sucker punched a policeman who was sitting in a patrol car, 75 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 3: reached in, tried to steal his service revolver or service weapon, 76 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 3: and then was shot, and then made a second charge 77 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 3: at the policeman and that was the fatal shot. So 78 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 3: there's no truth to hands up, don't shoot. Yet it 79 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 3: gave rise to the single most influential movement the century 80 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: in the United States, the Black Lives Matter movement, and 81 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 3: it's now being pushed into the anti ICE movement because 82 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 3: the invasion of the church, to what people posted on 83 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 3: the Internet who were involved, was involving the local Black 84 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 3: Lives Matter movement and the local Black Lives Matter you know, leadership, 85 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 3: And so what we have here is this bizarre situation 86 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 3: where anti ICE protesters are violating the rights of people 87 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: chanting hands up, don't shoot. But what they're chanting is 88 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: a complete fabrication. So you have this intersection of Black 89 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 3: Lives Matter and anti ICE protesters, which tells us there's 90 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 3: nothing organic here. Okay, these are not people, generally speaking, 91 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 3: just taking to. 92 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 4: The streets because they're upset. 93 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 3: This is all organized by the same people who were 94 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 3: behind Black Lives Matter promoting Black Lives Matter, are now 95 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 3: promoting the anti ICE riots and disruptions. 96 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: Talking to William jacobsend Cornell Law, professor of the mind 97 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: behind legal insurrection dot com. First, the you know you 98 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: mentioned my brown sucker punching a cop. He broke that 99 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,559 Speaker 1: officer's orbital socket, if I remember correctly what had taken 100 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: place there. But you know the idea that none of 101 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: these things are organic, All these things are planned. Whether 102 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: that is true, I happen to believe that these things 103 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: are true. But we should be taking a look at 104 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: what it is took place. We're talking about interrupting church services. 105 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: In church services and prayer is something that is protected. 106 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: So let's start before we get into the law. The 107 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: idea of the optics I put forth to you that 108 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: it's terrible optics, it's. 109 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: Going to backfire on the left. 110 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: And then I am countered by my own thoughts, which 111 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,799 Speaker 1: read that the left does not care if it's bad optics. 112 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: It means nothing to them. 113 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: The engagement in destruction, disruption, and intimidation is key and paramount, 114 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: and we seem to be passed to the moment in 115 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: talking to ourselves and talking to each other of rational 116 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: conversation when this could be seen as something without the 117 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: Left as they're already doing, kind of dismisses as no 118 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: big deal. 119 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: Well, I think you need to understand that this should 120 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 3: be prosecuted on its own rights, regardless of who you're 121 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 3: going to convince or who you're going to play to. 122 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 4: If this was a crime, and Department. 123 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 3: Of Justice had made has made statements that they're investigating 124 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 3: whether it's a crime. Would violate a couple of federal 125 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 3: laws to interrupt and deprive people of their religious liberty, 126 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 3: the Face Act the KKK Act. So these are potentially 127 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: federal crimes, and if they are warranted, they should be 128 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 3: prosecuted because people should have the freedom to worship in 129 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: their church or their synagogue or wherever without interruption in 130 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 3: this way, and so that's number one. Number two, none 131 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: of these things should ever be done with the thought 132 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 3: I am going to convince the crazies to change their mind. 133 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 3: They're not going to change their mind. And crazies is 134 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: unfortunately expanded. If you see the Facebook posts from people 135 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 3: that went to high school with they have completely bought 136 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: in to the anti ice narrative. But that's not who 137 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: we're playing to. We're playing to the general public, and 138 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 3: I don't think this is going to play very well. 139 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 3: Most people say there's got to be a limit to protest, 140 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: and one of those limits is you can't disrupt a church. 141 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 3: You can't barge into a church and take it over, 142 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: just like you can't barge into my house and take 143 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 3: my house over. Your freedom of speech, your freedom to 144 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 3: protest does have limits in our society. It's not unlimited. 145 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 3: You can't break into my house and say, well, I 146 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 3: was there just doing journalism or I was there just protesting. 147 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 4: That's my First Amendment right. 148 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 3: No, you don't have that right, and under federal law, 149 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: you don't have the right to do it in a 150 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 3: way to deprive people of their religious freedom. And I 151 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: think most people in the United States will do this 152 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 3: so to the extent the Department of Justice or the 153 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 3: Trump administration thinks about how this will play out in 154 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: the general population. This is the issue to push home. 155 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 3: This is the issue where they have no defense. This 156 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 3: is the issue where the super majority of people in 157 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 3: the country will say this cannot happen, that church services 158 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 3: are attacked basically by protesters. And I think this is 159 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 3: when they should push very hard. Obviously, they have to 160 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: have a sound basis to do that. I'm not saying 161 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: just prosecute for the sake of prosecuting, but if they 162 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: have a sound legal basis to prosecute these people, they 163 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: should do it. And this is the one the Department 164 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: of Justice and the Trump administration need to focus on 165 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 3: and push because the public will be on their side. 166 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: Talking to William Jacobs and Cornell Law, professor of the 167 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: mind behind legal insurrection dot com, just as a quick primer. 168 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: You've got the Face Act, which is nineteen ninety four. 169 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: Then you have the Ku Klux Klan Act of eighteen 170 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: seventy one. Now, the eighteen seventy one legislation is about 171 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: protection of the Fourteenth Amendment, enforcing the Fourteenth Amendment, protecting 172 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: African American civil rights, including the right to vote, hold 173 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: off as serve on jury's and receive equal protection under 174 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: the law. The Face Act, which was signed by Bill 175 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: Clinton in ninety four, was to protect reproductive health care 176 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: facilities and places of worship, making it a federal crime 177 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: to use force, threats of force, physical obstructure, or property 178 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: damage to intervenere with individuals engaged in others looking for 179 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: an abortion or engaging in prayer. Now, I'm not asking 180 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,599 Speaker 1: for the deepest dive on these two pieces of legislation, 181 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: but you said that these people should be prosecuted on 182 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: its merits? Is the merits? Intimidation is the merits the 183 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: Face Act or the ku Klux Klan Act is the 184 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: merits something else? 185 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 4: As you see it, Well, I mean the merits and 186 00:10:58,679 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 4: there may be others. 187 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: Are are the disruption of religious worship the deprivation of 188 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: the right to engage in your own religious freedom? Uh 189 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 3: So I think both of those potentially come into play. 190 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 3: I don't claim to be an expert on those acts, 191 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 3: but all you have to do is read them to 192 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 3: understand that these are potentially involved. And certainly, uh, the 193 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 3: Face Act has been used against uh you know, old 194 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 3: ladies praying outside of abortion clinics, right, and so that 195 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 3: has been used. The KKK Act is actually coming back 196 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 3: into fashion. I will say, you know, in the issue 197 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: of fighting you know, the new and the new racism, 198 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 3: the anti white racism. A number of groups have filed 199 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 3: lawsuits invoking the KKK Act. There would be a certain humor. 200 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: I'll say, if Don Lemon were prosecuted under the KKKE Act, 201 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 3: it just is a weird scene. But if it applies, 202 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 3: it applies. And again, I think the Department of Justice, 203 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 3: and which is what they appear to be doing, should 204 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: take this very carefully. Can you out of people on 205 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 3: Twitter tweeting at Harmeat Dylan, why haven't your filed charges yet? 206 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 4: Why aren't these. 207 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 3: People in jail? And our response, which was perfect, is 208 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 3: this isn't TV. 209 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 4: Okay, that's not how it works. 210 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 3: You gotta take it step by step, and I hope 211 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 3: they will take it step by step, and I hope 212 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 3: they will evaluate it because you know, there were certain 213 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: red lines, if you want to call it that. There 214 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 3: are certain lines you can't cross in our society, and 215 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 3: some of them are you know, embodied in law and 216 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 3: in legislation, like the Face Act and the KKK Act, 217 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 3: and if we let those lines be breached, if we 218 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 3: say to these protesters, you can do whatever you want, okay, 219 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 3: which is essentially what democrats are telling them. It doesn't 220 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: matter we hate eye, you hate ice. You can do 221 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 3: whatever you want. There are no limits to what you 222 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 3: can do. You can break into a church and take 223 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 3: over a church. If we allow that, that's just going 224 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 3: to lead to a greater escalation. That's why I say, 225 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 3: I think this is the place for Department of Justice 226 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 3: to draw the line. 227 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 4: We saw Pink you have the public with them. 228 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: We saw the Biden administration, and we hear Democrats wanting 229 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: to go after people who are protesting in front of 230 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: abortion clinics. Right, they hold signs and they pray for people, 231 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: but they're not actually physically stopping anybody from going into 232 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: an abortion cl Like. 233 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 2: That part is not happening. 234 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: These pieces of legislation, This idea of interrupting a church service, 235 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: it's the same concept. 236 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: It's in what we we're. 237 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: Going after these people protesting or saying hey, you should 238 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: change your mind about abortion, and the legislation the law 239 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: is being used to go after those people. That's the argument. 240 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: It's the same laws they can be utilized to go 241 00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: after these people. 242 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 3: That's right, and that's what happens if you pass laws 243 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 3: and you think, oh, this is only going to be 244 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: used against the other side, and then it comes around 245 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 3: that it's used against you. And that was a Clinton 246 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: law that was pushed by Democrats. I'm not sure of 247 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 3: what went on to get religious freedom protected in it. 248 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 3: It clearly was abortion driven. Maybe they needed that protection 249 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: to get the votes they needed to pass it. That 250 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 3: might be true, that would sound logical, but it's there, 251 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 3: and it's been used, and it's been used, as you indicated, 252 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 3: against little old ladies praying outside Abortionlyn's who are not 253 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: stopping people from entering, and certainly didn't invade the clinic 254 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 3: and didn't disrupt inside, and they were prosecuted, unlike these 255 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: protesters who did invade the church. They didn't stand outside. 256 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 3: If they'd been standing on the street with signs and 257 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 3: not prohibiting people from coming in, I think we'd be 258 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: looking at a very different situation. 259 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: But that's not what they did. 260 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 3: They invaded, They intimidated people, they screamed at people, they 261 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: took over the church. 262 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: Basically, I would even argue it's not basically they took 263 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: over the church. More with William Jacobson, Cornell Law professor 264 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: Legal insurrection dot Com coming up. I'm Tony Katz. This 265 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: is Tony Katz today. So did Don Lemon break the law? 266 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: That's the question here by entering this church knowingly with 267 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: a group that was intent on disrupting the church services 268 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: in violation of a bunch of federal laws. And I 269 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: don't even know about state laws. It's Minnesota. Maybe they've 270 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: got them different. But on the federal side, no question, 271 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: Tony Katz, Tony Katz today, Good to be here, Good 272 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: to be with you. He did this. He's trying to 273 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: now say he didn't do anything wrong. He's just a journalist. 274 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: I bring it back to William Jacobson, Cornell Law professor 275 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: of the mind behind Legal insurrection dot Com. As we 276 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: were discussing one of the people involved invading these churches 277 00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: is Don Lemon, the former CNN host. Now it's Don Lemmon. 278 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to say this. I'm not going to put 279 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: this on you, sir. This is me Tony Katz saying it. 280 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: I believe Don Lemon is flat out lying in how 281 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: he is engaging with this story because he's making a 282 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: claim that he was only there in the church as 283 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: a journalist. He was just there as a journalist, and 284 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: and and he wasn't doing anything wrong. But there's a 285 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: video that he made saying, I'm with these protesters. I 286 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: know what they're going to do. I know where they're 287 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: going to go in I can't tell you right now. 288 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: He knew exactly what they were going to do. He 289 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: then creates a video of his own trying to engage his. 290 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: Innocence. If you will listen, let me just make it quick. 291 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 5: Assistant Attorney general or it's a penman Joe or whatever. 292 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 5: So I had no affiliation to that organization. 293 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 6: I didn't even know they would go into this church 294 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 6: until we followed them there. 295 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 5: We were there chronicling protests. Once the protests started in 296 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 5: the church, we did. 297 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 6: An act of journalism, which was report on it and 298 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 6: talk to the people who involved, which included the pastor, 299 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 6: members of the church and members of the organization. 300 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: That's it. 301 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 5: It's called journalism for the First Amendment, all that stuff. 302 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 5: All of the people who believe in the First Amendment absolutist. 303 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 6: There you go, So why don't you talk to the 304 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 6: actual person who is in charge of the organization and 305 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 6: whose idea was to have the protests at the church. 306 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 5: Before you start blaming me for stuff for which you 307 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 5: have no idea, thank you for your attention to. 308 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: This Now you gotta love the little thank you for 309 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: your tention on this matter. 310 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: The Donald Trump take there. 311 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: Never mind that I'm saying he's lying, there's video evidence 312 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: that shows he knew what these people were doing. The 313 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: idea of being a journalist as the shield against any 314 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 1: level of prosecution or wrongdoing on the legal you can 315 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: make that claim. 316 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 4: Well, it's going to be very fact driven. What were 317 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 4: you doing there? 318 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: Okay, so was it true journalism or was it activism 319 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 3: and criminality which is now using journalism as a shield. 320 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 3: And I think some of the things he posted online 321 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 3: don't really help him in that regard. Yes, that is 322 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 3: a line that you know, if you are a journalist 323 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 3: covering a riot and you're not participating, you didn't organize it, 324 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 3: you're on the street, you're just taking photos, you probably 325 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 3: are protected because you have not done anything, any affirmative 326 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 3: act to advance the criminality. And so it's going to 327 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 3: be very fact intensive and the question is going to 328 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 3: be what was he doing there? 329 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 4: Why did he go there? What did he know? 330 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 3: Ins and you know his after the fact claim, well, 331 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 3: I'm just a journalist. It sounds a little too cute 332 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 3: to be true. It sounds more like he was there 333 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 3: as part of the crowd. And as we found out 334 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 3: on January sixth, if you're part of the crowd and 335 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 3: you're advancing the alleged criminality, the fact that you have 336 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 3: a camera with you and you're videotaping is not illegal defense, 337 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 3: or at least the government didn't accept it as illegal. 338 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 2: And you you brought that up to me as we 339 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: were getting ready to. 340 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: Talk, and I maybe I missed it. I heard it, 341 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: and I forgot I thought that was a fascinating connection point, 342 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: that there were people who were covering what was happening 343 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: on January sixth, and covering it didn't protect them from 344 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,959 Speaker 1: the onslaught of the Biden administration and the J six cabal. 345 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 4: That's right. And I don't remember the names. 346 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 3: I mean, they've seen them post about their stories and 347 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 3: how they basically had to spend their life savings defending themselves, 348 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 3: spent time in prison, and their claim was I was 349 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 3: just there to videotape. There was one person in particular, 350 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 3: and I'm just sorry, I'm forgetting his name. Who has 351 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 3: made a big deal about that, that he went there 352 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 3: simply to videotape what was happening as a journalist. Government 353 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 3: didn't accept that, didn't buy that, prosecuted him. I don't 354 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 3: know what the end result in his case was, but yes, 355 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: the government when it came to January sixth, did not 356 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 3: accept I was just there to videotape as an excuse, 357 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 3: and so I think if they're going to be consistent, 358 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: they should be prosecuting if there's other facts that warranted 359 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 3: don Lemon, despite him saying I was just there to videotape, 360 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 3: And so I think that's something that's going to have 361 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 3: to be considered that precedent. That's why I say you 362 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 3: do something one way because you think it's only going 363 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,719 Speaker 3: to be used against the other side, and then it 364 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: can come back to bite you when administrations change and 365 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: now you're on the receiving end. So I think that 366 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 3: that's going to be a question, and I think it 367 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 3: might be the sort of thing that the government does 368 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 3: prosecute him, and that'll be his defense and a judge's 369 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 3: going to have to decide. I don't know which way 370 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 3: it'll go. I don't know enough about the facts so 371 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 3: far to know which way it's likely to go, but 372 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 3: it's a legitimate consideration by the federal government, particularly since 373 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 3: there does seem to be video evidence out there that 374 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 3: he knew about the takeover before it happened. 375 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: There's absolutely video evidence about that before I let you go, 376 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: William Jacobson, Legal insurrection dot com. The legal about this, 377 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: I think is fascinating. But there is a cultural here 378 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: that exists. And this cultural is the left's desire for 379 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: violent rhetoric, for excusing violence, and for believing that the 380 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: violence is of value and necessary and deserved and righteous. 381 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: Whether it's the assassination of attempts on President Trump, whether 382 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: it's the assassination of Charlie Kirk, whether it's the attack 383 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: on ICE agents, what happened in this church, which I 384 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: do not believe will be the last one for sure. 385 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 1: Is this, as you see it, a mover in the 386 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: midterms coming up in November. 387 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 3: I don't know if it is, but I do agree 388 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 3: that things are escalating. The rhetoric is escalating, the insanity 389 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 3: is escalating, the urging of violence. I mean, you have 390 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 3: politicians on the Democrat side urging people to disrupt ICE activities. 391 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 3: I mean the woman who was shot by the Ice 392 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 3: agent in Minneapolis and killed as her car was heading 393 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 3: towards him. She was part of a movement that is 394 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 3: encouraging confrontation, that is encouraging the disruption of lawful federal 395 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: law enforcement and immag enforcement activities. And when Democrat politicians 396 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 3: encourage that, that's putting people in a very dangerous situation. 397 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 3: And I think that's the danger here, is not just 398 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 3: that there's some crazy activists who feel this way, but 399 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 3: mainstream Democrats, mainstream Democrats in the media, mainstream Democrat politicians 400 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 3: are urging confrontation, and that's a very dangerous situation. 401 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: William Jacobson, Cornell Law, professor of Legal Insurrection dot Com. 402 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking the moment to be with us. 403 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: More to get too. I'm Tony Katz. This is Tony 404 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: Katz today.