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Speaker 1: Live from Vaal Hartbinert and the Crossroads of America.

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Speaker 2: It's Tony Katz today.

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Speaker 1: I have made this argument now a few times, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not.

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Speaker 2: The only one making the argument, But I.

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Speaker 1: Often think on this one subject, am I not being

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Speaker 1: clear enough?

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Speaker 2: Which is insane for me to think.

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Speaker 1: You guys have known me now long enough to know

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty clear. Tony Katz, Tony Katz today, Good to

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Speaker 1: be here, Good to be with you. The United States

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Speaker 1: is doing outrageously well in taking out the Iranian threat.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe we should leave until the regime is

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Speaker 1: completely gone, totally gone, no concept of supporting terrorism, no

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Speaker 1: concept of anybody connected to the Iatola in a position

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Speaker 1: of power. And I would like to not have to

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Speaker 1: think about the Middle East for five minutes. But as

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Speaker 1: that is happening, we've got people on the political left

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Speaker 1: and on the woke right who to me very much

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Speaker 1: seem like they're rooting for America to lose, or really,

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Speaker 1: if I could be more clear, for Donald Trump to lose.

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Speaker 1: They don't actually hate the military, but as long as

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Speaker 1: Trump loses, they're somehow better off with their methodology, their psychology.

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Speaker 2: It's really and truly obscene.

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Speaker 1: And even though Trump is doing well, he does things

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Speaker 1: like calling Iran an excursion that kind of minimizes the

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Speaker 1: threat to our military and what happened to thirteen soldiers

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Speaker 1: who lost their lives in this fight. I think I'm clear,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes I don't think I'm perfectly clear. Noah Roffman

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Speaker 1: joins me right now. You catch his work at National

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Speaker 1: Review National Review dot com. His third book, Blood and Progress,

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Speaker 1: A Century of Left Wing Violence, will be available in May.

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Speaker 1: You find at Amazon dot com wherever fine books are sold.

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Speaker 1: You can pre order right now. You have the the

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Speaker 1: Iran War success is. They don't want you to hear

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Speaker 1: about you. You're not a historian by trade, but you

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Speaker 1: are a man who studies. Do we take a look

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Speaker 1: at what we have seen and base it on other

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Speaker 1: events and history in terms of world wars, in terms

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Speaker 1: of actually declared wars? Or are we talking about seeing

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Speaker 1: what we've seen with Iran comparing it to other actions

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Speaker 1: that have taken place over the last thirty years.

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Speaker 3: Well, in that piece, I try to make the point,

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Speaker 3: and it's an over long piece. It's like twenty seven

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Speaker 3: hundred words, but it need it to be very long

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Speaker 3: in order to be comprehensive because there is so many

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Speaker 3: misapprehensions floating around. And yeah, and the piece I make

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Speaker 3: the claim that compared to what is the most important

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Speaker 3: question that you can ask yourself in these sort of situations,

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Speaker 3: because it grounds you in counterfactuals that other people can

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Speaker 3: actually test and scenarios. For example, all the wargames that

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Speaker 3: we've been running against Iran over the last thirty years,

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Speaker 3: and compared to what indicates that we're doing spectacularly well

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Speaker 3: on the battlefield tactically, and you know, people are very

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Speaker 3: quick to note, well, tactical games do not beget strategic successes,

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Speaker 3: which I write in that piece because a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who have just recently stumbled into that little piece.

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Speaker 4: Of insight and then you know, bandied.

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Speaker 3: About as though they know this is their discovery, and

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Speaker 3: therefore you probably weren't aware of it either.

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Speaker 4: But no, it's pretty obvious that you can make.

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Speaker 3: The case that the United States fumbles the post war

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Speaker 3: has probably you could argue since nineteen forty five, we're

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Speaker 3: not there yet entirely theoretical, and the coverage of this

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Speaker 3: war from its outset, from day one, has been focused

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Speaker 3: almost exclusively on the strategy at the expense of the tactics.

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Speaker 3: And that's like covering the end of a novel by

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Speaker 3: skipping over the first chapters. You don't know what you're

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Speaker 3: looking at, you can't accurately assess what you're seeing, and

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Speaker 3: you can't relate to the public in a way that

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Speaker 3: conveys the totality of the information that you want to

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Speaker 3: convey by focusing on the post war environment in the

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Speaker 3: middle of the war. And I think it's absolutely right

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Speaker 3: what you've said that there is a contingent in the press,

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Speaker 3: international and domestic, as well as in the political class.

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Speaker 3: By the way, American Democrats and Republicans who want to

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Speaker 3: see Donald Trump fail, not the war, not the American people,

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Speaker 3: not the soldiers. They want to see BB and Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump humiliated, and whenever they have the opportunity, they rush

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Speaker 3: to that conclusion to see some sort of indignity visited

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Speaker 3: upon the president, like what we saw on Monday and

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Speaker 3: the immediate aftermath of the President saying, you know, I

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Speaker 3: was going to hit these power plants in five days.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to put that off for a second because

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Speaker 3: we're talking behind the scenes with Iranians and the rush

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Speaker 3: on the part of mainstream reporters, really knowledgeable folks who

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Speaker 3: understand warfare, people like Garislav troufemov Over at the Wall

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Speaker 3: Street Journal. Jonathan Martin at Politico insisted without any evidence

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Speaker 3: that Trump was just making it up, attempting to manipulate

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Speaker 3: oil markets, or trying to find some sort of off

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Speaker 3: ramp for this disastrous situation he's gotten himself into. And

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Speaker 3: it was true, untrue. There was no evidence behind it.

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Speaker 3: It was a supposition based only on their own prejudices,

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Speaker 3: and it exposed the on prejudices. I'm happy to criticize

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Speaker 3: the president's rhetoric. I think you're right calling this an

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Speaker 3: excursion merely to avoid going to Congress for war powers

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Speaker 3: or saying that the war is won, even as the

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Speaker 3: tempo of combat operations accelerates.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it gives people misgivings.

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Speaker 3: They don't think you're taking this seriously, or they think

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Speaker 3: you're gulling them into a narrative that is not true.

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Speaker 3: And the people do not trust this president. He's made

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Speaker 3: it clear that he doesn't trust them either. He's not

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Speaker 3: going to them with the proper rationale and asking them

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Speaker 3: to bear and endure the sacrifices that this war has

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Speaker 3: already imposed on them. He really should. Yes, that has

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Speaker 3: nothing to do nothing to do with combat operations, the

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Speaker 3: efficacy of Israeli military operations on the ground, or the

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Speaker 3: strategic elements that we're putting in place for a longer

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Speaker 3: campaign against this regime, the destruction of which is the

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Speaker 3: only way we're going to eliminate the threat from its

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Speaker 3: missile in nuclear programs.

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Speaker 1: The hardest part of this conversation, Noah Noah Rothman National

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Speaker 1: Review dot Com is that people have a hard time

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Speaker 1: with the idea that you can be laudatory and get

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Speaker 1: engaging in excruciating details failures at the same time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't find it difficult.

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Speaker 3: Well, you're a special free too, oh, Tony. I have

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Speaker 3: heard in arguments over this war from my friends, from

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Speaker 3: my allies, people with whom I usually agree a lot

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Speaker 3: of first person pronouns when talking about this war. I

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Speaker 3: think my friends, me, and others who have a certain

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Speaker 3: outlook on this war, whose personal brand is bound up

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Speaker 3: in skepticism and critic and being critical of Trump and

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Speaker 3: being supportive of Trump whatever it is, seeing this war

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Speaker 3: through the prism of domestic politics and their position within

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Speaker 3: domestic politics and that's just the wrong way to look

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Speaker 3: at it. It's very parochial, a little bit selfish, and

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Speaker 3: it results in that analysis. And we've seen a lot

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Speaker 3: of that analysis on the tactical and strategic levels.

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Speaker 1: Let's engage a little bit of analysis on two things. First,

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Speaker 1: the idea of the five day pause. He puts out

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Speaker 1: the post untruth social you're gonna stop this or I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna take out basically all of your energy, the any

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Speaker 1: energy reserves here, any power plant over here. And then

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Speaker 1: before that forty eight hours he gives is up, he

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Speaker 1: says a five day pause. Then before the five day

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Speaker 1: pauses up, he says ten more days.

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Speaker 2: Now, all of this could all be sub diffused.

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Speaker 1: Right and could lead to you could see a bombing

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Speaker 1: happening as we speak. But the question is these delays

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Speaker 1: is seen as this is a guy really negotiating to

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Speaker 1: try and not engage any more war. Is this something

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Speaker 1: that do we have any news or information that makes

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Speaker 1: us believe that there's actually somebody on the Iranian side,

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Speaker 1: which is at least a legitimate question.

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Speaker 2: If you've killed the leadership, who are we talking to?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Subsequent reporting is indicated that there is shuttle diplomacy going

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Speaker 3: on between the United States and whatever representatives of the

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Speaker 3: Iranian government exist presently, and they're being shuttled through representatives

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Speaker 3: for the governments of Pakistan, Egypt and others. I'm forgetting,

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Speaker 3: but at least those two major Muslim powers, and that's

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Speaker 3: perfectly believable. It's not like it's hard to comprehend the

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Speaker 3: notion that there are a back channel contact between two

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Speaker 3: warring parties during a conflict. That happens all the time.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I was not at all predisposed to

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Speaker 3: say that the President was making this up, as so

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Speaker 3: many people did. But the notion here being a bandied

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Speaker 3: about by his critics is one that he was desperate

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Speaker 3: for diplomatic off ramp and is testing, for example, the

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Speaker 3: prospects for diplomacy, which is not necessarily a mark of

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Speaker 3: capitulation or pusillanimity. It's merely an avenue to explore an

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Speaker 3: end to this conflict, which is again not pursuing it,

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Speaker 3: but identifying it.

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Speaker 4: That others said he was.

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Speaker 3: Manipulating oil markets because of what he says the or

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Speaker 3: is going to end all of a sudden, all the

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Speaker 3: horrible things that we're hearing about are happening to the

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Speaker 3: oil markets, which are going to persist for decades, disappear

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Speaker 3: in the markets, and then and oil and West Texas

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Speaker 3: crew go back to normal range prices, and the presidents,

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Speaker 3: you know, he has the capacity to do that with

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Speaker 3: a true social post, but he won't have the capacity

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Speaker 3: to do that forever the market price is in jaw boning,

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Speaker 3: like that if it is jow bonning. But there are

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Speaker 3: other possibilities too. Some have suggested that the President could

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Speaker 3: be sowing dissension within the ranks of whatever remains of

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Speaker 3: the leadership, sewing paranoia, getting them to think that some

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Speaker 3: people are talking to the Americans, maybe my brothers in

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Speaker 3: arms are going to sell me out. Or maybe he's

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Speaker 3: stalling for time so that this eighty second Airborne and

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Speaker 3: the marine expeditionary units that are en route to the

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Speaker 3: Middle East get there and stand preposition ahead and give

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Speaker 3: the President options for ground operations and islands and the

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Speaker 3: Persian Gulf. All of these could be true. At the

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Speaker 3: same time, none of them could be true. We have

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Speaker 3: no idea and no capacity to evaluate whether or not

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Speaker 3: this is true. A little bit of epistemological humility would

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Speaker 3: be desirable on the part of the people who are

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Speaker 3: trying to assess the information environment, which I guarantee you

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Speaker 3: is deliberately saturated right now with misdirection design not only

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Speaker 3: to misdirect us, but to misdirect our enemies abroad. And

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Speaker 3: that's the sort of thing that's difficult for reporters to assess.

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Speaker 3: They're just giving you the facts, right, so they have

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Speaker 3: to relate every one of these little whether it's true

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Speaker 3: or not. You know, the efforts to manipulate individuals, combatants,

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Speaker 3: noncombatants through the information environment mean and so yeah, we

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Speaker 3: just can't assess it.

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Speaker 4: But you don't see that kind of.

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Speaker 3: Humility from people who are desperate for evidence that Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump is messing this whole thing up.

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Speaker 1: Let me, I want to rephrase it, because very few

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Speaker 1: people are using a pistemological humility, and let's change it

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Speaker 1: to something that we would say on the streets. It's

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Speaker 1: very okay for the president of the United States, the

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Speaker 1: commander in chief, to engage in open deception with the

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Speaker 1: enemy so we can get a better result. That's the

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Speaker 1: argument and the idea that we are not told exactly

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Speaker 1: what the endgame is when the endgame happens and how

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Speaker 1: everything's can get wrapped up in a bow. That's real life,

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Speaker 1: a real politique, as opposed to what the left wants,

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Speaker 1: which is somehow everything plays up beautifully like in a book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's our video game. No videole have just don't

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Speaker 3: really understand what it's like to win a war anymore,

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Speaker 3: because we don't fight to win wars. But even when

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Speaker 3: we were fighting for a draw, like go back to

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Speaker 3: the nineteen ninety one go Forth, we lost like fifty

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Speaker 3: six wing aircraft in that contest. We destroyed our rack's

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Speaker 3: capacity to generate power the entire country dark. That was

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Speaker 3: just how wars were fought, and it.

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Speaker 2: Was bloody and it was brutal.

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Speaker 3: We had people who were shut down, we had people

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Speaker 3: who were killed, we had people who are captured.

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Speaker 4: None of that has happened in this war.

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Speaker 3: And we expect war to be some sort of antiseptic experience.

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Speaker 3: Now that lasts for twelve hours or so, and it's

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Speaker 3: an incredible triumphant experience. Do you think we're the aliens

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Speaker 3: from Independence Day? Like if anybody lays a finger on us,

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Speaker 3: it's mark of a impossible strategic failure. It's very strange,

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Speaker 3: but it's also reflective of just how how much the

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Speaker 3: American people are just not acclimated to an actual, real

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Speaker 3: war fought to a strategic objective. Looks like it looks

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Speaker 3: like the wars that Israel have been fighting since October seven,

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. And that's the kind of war we're fighting.

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Speaker 3: We're fighting a war on an Israeli style term, and

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Speaker 3: it's actually being very successful, and that's freaking people out.

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Speaker 1: Talking to Noah Rothman of National Review, his latest book,

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Speaker 1: Blood and Progress, A Century of Left Wing Violence, will

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Speaker 1: be available at Amazon dot com wherever fine books are sold,

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Speaker 1: May of twenty twenty six. You bring up Israel fighting

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Speaker 1: it in this way, which is fighting to a win

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Speaker 1: or to a victory. I agree wholeheartedly that we have

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Speaker 1: forgotten what victory looks like.

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Speaker 2: Since we live in a.

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Speaker 1: Broadband world, we expect things to happen at a broadband speed.

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Speaker 1: Can any part of the regime exhist and the US

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Speaker 1: call it victory. For President Trump, victory is you know,

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Speaker 1: the first two rules of trump Ism. The first rule

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Speaker 1: is Trump wins, and the second rule of trump Ism

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Speaker 1: is that a deal can always be made as long

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Speaker 1: as it adheres to the first rule of trump Ism,

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Speaker 1: So that allows the president to say, at any moment,

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Speaker 1: we did.

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Speaker 2: What we came to do. We're done.

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Speaker 1: But if the regime remains in any way, is that success?

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Speaker 3: Well, so, given your stipulation there that the president reserves

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Speaker 3: the right to declare victory and retreat at any point

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Speaker 3: in this conflict, you.

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Speaker 4: Can't rule that out.

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Speaker 3: I do not want to rule that out, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's wise to keep in mind. The prospect that

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Speaker 3: the president will disengage before we've achieved our tactical and

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Speaker 3: strategic objectives in the combat phase of this war totally possible. However,

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Speaker 3: everybody in this administration, with scars and stripes, stripes on

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Speaker 3: their shoulders, stars and their epulets, have been very clear

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Speaker 3: and have not changed their forecast for how this war

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Speaker 3: was going to unfold and stages. The first stage was

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Speaker 3: to attack Iran's capacity to project power, it's active military assets.

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Speaker 3: The second stage, which we're in right now, is to

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Speaker 3: decimate Iran's capacity to build military assets, its military production facilities,

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Speaker 3: its defense industrial base. All the while, by the way,

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Speaker 3: Israel is attacking regime targets, symbols of regime stability, the

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Speaker 3: terror apparatus, the IRGCE, the besiege, the stuff that keeps

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Speaker 3: the Iranian people down or shot in the streets. The

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Speaker 3: third stage is always and was always going to look

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Speaker 3: like defeat for people who want to see a triumphant moment,

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Speaker 3: a definitive point at which the United States can look

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Speaker 3: at the ground and say, Okay, we won. It was

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Speaker 3: going to be a negotiated settlement with somebody who can

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Speaker 3: claim to represent the Iranian people, whether it's the remnants

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Speaker 3: of the Islamic Republic, whether it's some transitional figure who

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Speaker 3: knows that was never part of the plan, never explode,

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Speaker 3: you know, never elucidated precisely who that figure was, because

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Speaker 3: we didn't know that figure.

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Speaker 4: Was going to be.

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Speaker 3: But when that happens, and it will be negotiated se

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Speaker 3: with whatever remains, then you move on to phase three,

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Speaker 3: which is the quiet process of undermining this regime from within.

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Speaker 3: And everybody has said the IDF Benjamin and Yahoo. Brad

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Speaker 3: Cooper is the head of Sentcom who said as much

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Speaker 3: this week quote, there will be a clear signal at

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Speaker 3: some point, as the President has indicated, for you to

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Speaker 3: be able to come out. He told the Iranian people

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Speaker 3: in an interview with an Iranian diaspora outlet, he said,

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Speaker 3: this time has not come yet, but it will. And

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Speaker 3: all the reporting that we have from NPR, from the

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Speaker 3: New York Post, which has gotten in touch with Iranians

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Speaker 3: on the ground is the Iranian people are waiting for

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Speaker 3: the signal and they are primed. And who knows what

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Speaker 3: we're doing on the ground in order to facilitate the

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Speaker 3: arming of potentially insurrectionary elements, the fomenting of a potentially

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Speaker 3: insurrectionary attack on this regime from within. That's the sort

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Speaker 3: of thing that we're going to engineer later after the combat.

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Speaker 2: Phase is over.

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Speaker 3: We're still in the middle of the combat phase. And

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Speaker 3: I think the biggest hurdle right now everybody acknowledges as

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Speaker 3: the biggest hurdle is opening the Strait of Hormus. And

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Speaker 3: there is the sense that if we allow the Iranian

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Speaker 3: regime to maintain even notional control over the strait such

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Speaker 3: that it's able to extort the ships that come through

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Speaker 3: it for a two million dollars apiece, for example, which

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Speaker 3: is what they're doing now, that it will be a

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Speaker 3: strategic loss. And I think it will be a strategic setback.

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Speaker 3: An ambiguous end to this war. And I don't think

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Speaker 3: it's going to end there, but it could, and if

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Speaker 3: it did, it would not it would fall short of

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Speaker 3: all of our key objectives most certainly. But the notion

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Speaker 3: here that Iran is going to emerge from this, as

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Speaker 3: so many say that Iran is going to emerge from

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Speaker 3: this stronger, more emboldened, more of a regional power, is insane.

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Speaker 3: It's incredible, literally incredible. The notion here that Iran will

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Speaker 3: emerge as this more potent force in the Middle East

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Speaker 3: even when all its military and military industrial complexes are

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Speaker 3: destroyed is bizarre. The notion here that it will be

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Speaker 3: a more potent force in the region even as it

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Speaker 3: has a race the entire Middle East against it. Openly,

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Speaker 3: you have the UAE and the Saudi Arabians flirting with

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Speaker 3: active combat operations against Iran, to say nothing of what

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Speaker 3: they're doing behind the scenes, and the entire Gulf and

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Speaker 3: the Middle East, including places like Syria, Jordan, Egypt, all

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Speaker 3: these places are turning against the Uranium regime. They've always

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Speaker 3: had it, they haven't had exactly had a soft spot

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Speaker 3: for the Mulas, but it's been sort of a cat

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Speaker 3: and mouse game, little subterfuge here, allow these front companies

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Speaker 3: to exist there so they can evade sanctions here.

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Speaker 4: All that stuff is gone. It's not coming back.

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Speaker 3: The Uranian regime is as weak as it's ever been

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Speaker 3: and will continue to be weak after this war. And

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Speaker 3: it's just it makes no sense to me that so

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Speaker 3: many people are resistant to this obvious notion, Like the

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Speaker 3: argument against it just is very difficult to make, and

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Speaker 3: yet you see so many making it more.

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Speaker 1: With Noah Rothman coming up, keep it here, I'm Tony Katz.

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Speaker 1: This is Tony Katz today. So much of the conflict

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Speaker 1: with Iran war. Listen. I say it's regime change, because

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Speaker 1: it is regime change. I think we're fooling ourselves, kidding

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Speaker 1: our I was lying to ourselves if we don't call

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Speaker 1: it that, And I don't believe in doing any of

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Speaker 1: those things. Tony Katz, Tony kats today.

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Speaker 2: Good to be here, Good to be with you.

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Speaker 1: Noah Rothman stays with us from National Review. His book

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Speaker 1: Blood in Progress, A Century of Left Wing Violence, available

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Speaker 1: at Amazon dot com wherever fine books are sold, that

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Speaker 1: will be in May of twenty twenty six. You can

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Speaker 1: pre order right now. Blood in Progress a Century of

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Speaker 1: left wing violence. One of the things that you said

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Speaker 1: earlier was about how the United States is engaging in

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Speaker 1: taking out the Iranian regime in an Israeli way, and

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Speaker 1: you noted, and we've discussed it here before, that since

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Speaker 1: October seventh, Israel has defied all the critics in all

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Speaker 1: the standard norms of how they did things. They'd drop

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Speaker 1: a few bombs, they'd get angry, and then they'd have

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Speaker 1: to relent because of world pressure. Post October seventh, there

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Speaker 1: was no relenting.

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Speaker 2: And I was in.

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Speaker 1: Israel some months after October seventh, and it was very

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Speaker 1: clear from people you speak to on the streets and

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Speaker 1: the feel of that nation, as you observe they were

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Speaker 1: done every try they gave to the Palestinians, every attempt

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Speaker 1: they gave to build up areas around the Gaza envelope.

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Speaker 1: Those mayors who wanted to build factories and create opportunities

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Speaker 1: and would they would kibbutzes, would go into Gaza and

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Speaker 1: bring people back to work. Well, those are the people

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Speaker 1: who laid out what was happening in the kibbutz is,

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Speaker 1: where the armory was, where people were, where the families were, etc.

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Speaker 1: So hamas and Palestinians could go in and murder everyone

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Speaker 1: they saw. It was those people who the Israelis were

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Speaker 1: trying to help that helped map out how to kill them.

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Speaker 1: And Israeli said we've had enough here. And that has

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Speaker 1: been true and that has gone on, and that is

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Speaker 1: what's created so much angst amongst the left in screaming

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Speaker 1: of genocide, etc. They can't accept the fact that Israel

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Speaker 1: wouldn't take it. But it's an interesting statement from you.

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Speaker 1: I had not considered this thought process that the United

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Speaker 1: States is doing this in an Israeli way. But we

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Speaker 1: also discuss how many people are rooting for President Trump

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Speaker 1: to fail. If Israel wasn't involved, if this wasn't a

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Speaker 1: US Israel operation, but it was a US UK operation,

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Speaker 1: or pick another nation or just the United States, would

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Speaker 1: these same leftists and people on the wolk right be

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Speaker 1: rooting for Trump to fail.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so, because it has very little. I mean,

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Speaker 3: their antipathy to Israel is total, but their antipathy to

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Speaker 3: the West and the West as represented by the prima

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Speaker 3: inter paris the United States of America, the foremost exemplar

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Speaker 3: of the capitalist world, is there was always a permanent

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Speaker 3: factor and you know, you can go back to the

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Speaker 3: seventies and the sixties and even the early nineteen eighties

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Speaker 3: for the origins of this kind of Marxian approach, to

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Speaker 3: the evolution of lestling militancy from Marxian insurgents to Pan

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Speaker 3: Arab nationalists to Islamist theocrats as they gravitated towards the

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Speaker 3: Islamic Revolution, and all this is very well documented. I

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Speaker 3: actually wrote a review for Commentary about Jason Burk's on

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Speaker 3: this phenomenon, The Revolutionists, very good book on the bizarre

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Speaker 3: evolution of the far left hostility to the capitalist world

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Speaker 3: manifesting in support for the Cuban regime and the Cuban

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Speaker 3: regime support for the Islamis regime.

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Speaker 4: All these guys are connected in ways.

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Speaker 3: That you would if you didn't know the actual history

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Speaker 3: of it, you'd be called a conspiracy theorist for identifying

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Speaker 3: all these all these connections.

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Speaker 2: I will say.

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Speaker 3: You stipulated that after October seventh, Israel, you know, took

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Speaker 3: the gloves off and was not constrained. That is not true.

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Speaker 3: It was constrained by the Biden administration. For example, it

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Speaker 3: did not go into Conunis when it wanted to, when

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Speaker 3: it eventually did. It did so in defiance of the

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Speaker 3: Biden administration, where they eventually captured and killed Yakyat sin War,

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Speaker 3: but they were prevented from doing so. And that's typical.

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Speaker 3: The United States puts the reins on Israel. The Bush

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Speaker 3: administration did, the Obama administration certainly did, the Biden administration did,

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Speaker 3: and even Trump one point zero was, you know, cagey

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Speaker 3: about the extent to which it was supporting and the

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Speaker 3: flourishing of what would eventually become the Abraham Accords because

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Speaker 3: it was a fraud project. Not so after twenty twenty five. Yes,

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump took the gloves off. Yes, prosecuted these wars

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Speaker 3: alongside Israel in ways that Israel would recognize as the

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Speaker 3: way you fight to victory. That's a very new development.

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Speaker 3: But you know, is Israel to blame for the hostility

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Speaker 3: that Donald Trump is experiencing from the international press, the

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Speaker 3: international left. Now, I really don't think so. I think

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Speaker 3: we would have experienced this exact same phenomenon as we

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Speaker 3: did after the Iraq War and in the middle of

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Speaker 3: the Iraq War, when the Bush administration handcuffed the Israelis

436
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 3: and the Israelis didn't want us to go into Iraq.

437
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 3: They said, focus on Iran, that's the head of the snake.

438
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 3: And they were also very cagy and leary about experiencing

439
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 3: a Gulf War style attack when Sam Hussein's regime drops

440
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 3: GUD missiles on Israelis and they were prevented from responding,

441
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 3: They were not allowed to respond by georgia' w Bush's administration,

442
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: and they did not want to repeat that experience. So

443
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 3: America's relationship with Israel has been a lot more fraud

444
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 3: than it was than it has been under Trump two

445
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,479
Speaker 3: point zero. And the American left well hostile to Israel

446
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 3: and the Zionist project generally, going to this Marxian origin

447
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 3: story in the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties is more

448
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 3: hostile to Washington and more hostile to the United States,

449
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 3: because it is the foremost power in the world that

450
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 3: exemplifies hostility to the socialist project and the international anti

451
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 3: colonialist project, which by the way, are pretty much the

452
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 3: exact same thing, different verbiage.

453
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 1: So now take that, put it to the side, but

454
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 1: just us as a bit of kind of a baseline.

455
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 2: Let's move this into the woke right.

456
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 1: We can call that Candice Owens Tucker Carlson, Meghan Kelly,

457
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: Alex Jones, these people who are telling us that Trump

458
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: was dragged into this by Israel as opposed to how

459
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 1: you're discussing things that Israel's often constrained by the United States.

460
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 2: It doesn't actually go the other way Aroun.

461
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: And then we get into jd Vance and a lot

462
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: of people for months now been discussing that jd Vance's

463
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: relationship with Tucker Carlson is going to hurt him in

464
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: a general come twenty twenty eight, other people say that

465
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: jd Vance is the guy that of the woke right

466
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: because he understands that this relationship with Israel is leading

467
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: to America's downfall. I argue that we see people in

468
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: the medium, We see the woke right pushing this idea

469
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: that we're losing or we're failing, or they want to

470
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: see Trump lose, and it is a wholly on American proposition.

471
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: It's said very generally, and that what they are looking

472
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: for is for us to learn our lesson that we

473
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: should be. You might refer to it as isolationist. I

474
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: would refer to it as we can't get involved in

475
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: these entanglements, even when removal of terrorism is clearly to

476
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: our benefit.

477
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 2: Is JD.

478
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: Vance in between a rock and a hard place? Or

479
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: did he put himself there?

480
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: I'll put it this way.

481
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 3: There is a large contingent within the United States that

482
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: does want to see a humbler foreign policy has for generations.

483
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 3: This is what George W. Bush ran on in the

484
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 3: year two thousand. But there's a smaller contingent within that

485
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 3: broader universe that believes that the United States needs a

486
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 3: humbler fall out foreign policy and if it won't execute

487
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 3: a foreign a humbler foreign policy in its own, it

488
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 3: must be humbled. And in people around JD Vance's camp

489
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 3: do seem to be members of that contingent. They have

490
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 3: a piece in Axios today that sparked my absolute frustration,

491
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: a visceral level of hostility to what was coming out

492
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 3: of JD Vance's allies, because they're actively attempting to drive

493
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 3: a wedge between the United States and Israel in wartime

494
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 3: against an implacable foe. Maybe not the Vice President himself,

495
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 3: but his people are telling reporters Barack Reviede and Mark

496
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 3: Puto are Axios that the Vice President is willing to

497
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 3: play his part, and he has his thoughts on this war.

498
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: We are all must be a breast of Jade Vance's internal

499
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 3: torment at this moment, and they believe that that Benjamin Niaw,

500
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 3: who sort of guld the President into this war, promised

501
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 3: him that this would be some sort of a very quick, clean,

502
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 3: triumphant campaign, which we have not heard from public statements

503
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 3: from any of the people who are talking to Axios

504
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 3: on background off the record, and also that it's an

505
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: Israeli up against GDS at one administration official, citing claims

506
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 3: that were widely reported on that whatever remnants we're talking

507
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 3: to with Iran are interested in negotiating with jd Vance

508
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: alone in part because they understand him to be more

509
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 3: skeptical of this war. And they understand him to be

510
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 3: more skeptical of this war.

511
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 4: Because he's more.

512
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 3: Skeptical of this war. He has made no secret about it.

513
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 3: His allies have made no secret about it. They want

514
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 3: His brand was built on the notion that the United

515
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 3: States is overextended abroad and needs to retrench behind its

516
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: oceans into its shores.

517
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 4: This is the argument that has been bandied about by.

518
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 3: The restrainers, the quote unquote self described restrainers in the

519
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 3: Pentagon for years, even before this administration was inaugurated.

520
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 4: And JD.

521
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 3: Vance is aligning himself with them, and now that his

522
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 3: stock is falling, and his stock is falling. I don't

523
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: live inside Washington, but I keep my ear to the door,

524
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: and it's not hard to hear the extent to which

525
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: people inside the Republican orbit and Trump's orbit are losing

526
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: their taste for JD.

527
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 4: Vance.

528
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 3: Think he's being upstaged by Marco Rubio. Think he's a

529
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: worse political talent. The President himself has said as much

530
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 3: in his unguarded moments, and he's going to say a

531
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 3: louder and as we move forward.

532
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: I'm going to and are panicked about it real quick.

533
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: I think the word on the street is that they

534
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: view Marco Rubio in higher regard than JD.

535
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: Vans.

536
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: And that's not to say that the street Midwest main

537
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: Street views JD.

538
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: Vance in a low regard.

539
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: But I absolutely wholeheartedly would say if you pulled one

540
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: hundred people on the streets, ninety five of them would

541
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: think more of Marco Rubio and his presentation than Van.

542
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: I think that that's an act good assessment.

543
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just being upstaged and the president who comes

544
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 3: from television. Is a television critic is very sensitive to

545
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 3: the degree to which an audience perceives talent, and he

546
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 3: sees Marco Rubio killing it, and he sees Jdvance foundering.

547
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 4: That just it everybody does.

548
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: It's not hard to notice, but the people in Jdvance's

549
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 3: orbit are freaked out about it, Doly.

550
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: So understandably so.

551
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: And the way they're going about repairing that damage is

552
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 3: to undermine the bilateral relationship between the Washington and Jerusalem

553
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 3: in wartime that is extremely reckless, extremely negligent, and so

554
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 3: self centered, so solipsistic as to be contradictory to American

555
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: strategic aims, indeed undermining them. And that's a really serious

556
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 3: allegation that Jadvance's people need to really consider.

557
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: Noah Rothman, National Review dot Com The book Blood and

558
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: Progress essentially have left wing violence. Pre order that at

559
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: Amazon dot Com, available May of twenty twenty six. Noah,

560
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking the time more to get to

561
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: this is Tony Kats Today