1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: So now the Broadcasting Minister says Facebook may actually well 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: end up banning New Zealand news content from its sites 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: site in retaliation against a proposed fair bargaining bill. Once past, 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: the likes of Google and Facebook will be forced to 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: negotiate deals with media companies in order to use their content. 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: So why I asked Paul Goldsmith, the Minister earlier, whether 7 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: the tech the tech companies had threatened to ban news 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. 9 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 2: No, they went didy threat. But if they've made it 10 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: clear that not very in on this legislation, as has Google, Google, 11 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: and so you know, it's a it is quite a 12 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 2: tricky area, but we think imbalances with having this as 13 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: a backstop just to encourage those conversations to happen. 14 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: Andrew Holden is the News Publishers Association's Public affairs director 15 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: and with us now, Hey, Andrew, Hi, how do you 16 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: rate the chances that Facebook will ban news here? 17 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 3: Ah, It's a bit difficult to say at this point. 18 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 3: I mean, they've certainly done or threatened that in Australia, 19 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 3: and they've done it in Canada. I mean, I think 20 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 3: the point about this legislation is it gives us an 21 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 3: opportunity to sit down with them and have a conversation 22 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 3: and a negotiation. There's no need from our perspective to 23 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 3: go to that kind of nuclear response at this point. 24 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: We think that news brings value to Facebook. We just 25 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 3: want to have a conversation with them about it. 26 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: Okay, that may be what I mean. You might want 27 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: to be reasonable, but they're not that reasonable. If we 28 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: end up in the same situation that is possible in Australia. 29 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: Certainly has happened in Canada where you've got this, you know, 30 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: them pulling out of the news and there as therefore 31 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: as a result, reduced traffic and it particularly hits the 32 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: smaller publishers hard. Is it worth it to end up 33 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: in that position for what little money we will get 34 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: from Google? 35 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 3: Well, you're talking about a little money from Google and 36 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 3: little money from Facebook. I mean between the two of them, and. 37 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: So no money from Facebook Andrew they walk away. They 38 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: really hurt the traffic that goes through to the websites. 39 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: You're getting some from Google, but you lose Facebook and 40 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: all of their platform altogether. Is it worth it? 41 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 3: Well, we lose the platform potentially for news, but you know, 42 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 3: there are always alternatives for small publishers, and certainly the 43 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 3: MPa is one of those who are more than happy 44 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 3: to talk to those small community or ethnic publishers around 45 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 3: what might be alternatives for them. I mean fundamentally, what 46 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 3: we're talking about here, though, is what is a fair 47 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: payment for the use of journalism content by these tech 48 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 3: companies And and we know they're using it. We've done 49 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: research recently that shows them more than ninety percent of 50 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 3: key wes are going to who want to keep up 51 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 3: to date with news every single day and search and 52 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 3: social media are a key places that they go through 53 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: to find that information. So we know news is of 54 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 3: value to them. And what we want to do is 55 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 3: sit down with these companies and say journalism matters of 56 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 3: New Zealand, you're getting the value out of it, what 57 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: do you think is a fair payment to us. That's 58 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 3: that's fundamentally the point behind this. 59 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: I would have thought that news media had a better 60 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: argument with the likes of Facebook and Google using AI 61 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: because there is no I mean, you know, there is 62 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: some benefit in news media being on a platform like 63 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: Google because you get the text traffic, you get the 64 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: traffic coming through, you also get you there's some benefit 65 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: of being on a platform like Facebook because you get 66 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: the traffic coming through. 67 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: But there is. 68 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: Absolutely no benefit to news media and those guys scraping 69 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: their content for AI. Are you disappointed that Paul Goldsmith's 70 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: not doing anything about the AI. 71 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 3: No. I mean, we certainly asked him to suggest that 72 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 3: a legislation call it out. But we're confident that this legislation, 73 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 3: because it doesn't specify the particular companies that are covered 74 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 3: by it, that it will in fact cover those AIS. 75 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 3: So Chat GPT, as far as we're concerned, will be 76 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 3: covered by this legislation. We know that they're using New 77 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 3: zeal And journalism, they're using it to train their engines. 78 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: So we're looking forward to sitting down and having a 79 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 3: conversation with them and saying, we know you're getting venue 80 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 3: out of this. It's time for you to pay for 81 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: the venue that you're getting from it. 82 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: Does David Seymour have a point that it doesn't. This 83 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: doesn't actually fundamentally deal with the problem, which is that 84 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: the news media is offering up a product we no 85 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: longer want to consume. 86 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: Well, I mean he's wrong on that respect. I mean 87 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 3: he's talking about something completely different. The issue here is 88 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 3: that the money is being the digital advertising is being 89 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: scooped up by these digital tech companies. They're getting venue 90 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 3: from news and they're not paying for it. What he's 91 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 3: talking about is something fundamentally different. We don't have an 92 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 3: issue with the audience in New Zealand. As I said 93 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: that research is showing that ninety percent of kiwis are 94 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 3: going and looking for information every day. The same research 95 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 3: shows that they trust their local news content providers. Here 96 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 3: in this country, over eighty percent of kiwis actually trust 97 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 3: the local journalists who tell them what's happening if there's 98 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 3: flooding in Lisbon or on earthquake in christ Church. So 99 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: that's not the issue here. The issue is a marketing balance. 100 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: It's not the quality of the news, and it's not 101 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: the fact that the keywis want to be kept up today. 102 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: Andrew, it's always good to talk to you. Thank you 103 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: so much for your time. That's Andrew Holden Holden, who's 104 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: the Public AFEES director at the News Publishers Association. 105 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 106 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 2: news Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 107 00:04:58,080 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.