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Speaker 1: Now our benefits sanctions. So we've got some new benefits

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Speaker 1: sanctions kicking in today. They include requiring the beneficiaries to

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Speaker 1: find volunteer work. But this is not being met with

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Speaker 1: universal approval, including from the Salvation Army. Paul Barber is

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Speaker 1: the principal social policy analyst. Then is with us now, hey, Paul?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Hello, not loving to talk to you, good to

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Speaker 2: talk to you? Well, look, the Salvation Army ready welcomes

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Speaker 2: people seeking out community work experience, and it is an

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Speaker 2: important way that people can help and build up their

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Speaker 2: experience and find ways to get involved in their community

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Speaker 2: and reconnect and build up skills that may lead to employment.

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Speaker 2: But we certainly do not support making that mandatory, making

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Speaker 2: your requirement, making it a sanction. They don't believe that's

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Speaker 2: the right way to engage with people who are really

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Speaker 2: already struggling on to find a space in the employment market.

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Speaker 1: Why isn't it a good idea?

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Speaker 2: Well, the arts are already a lot of sanctions available.

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Speaker 2: People are already the welfare, work and income has a

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Speaker 2: whole range of things of being used heavily. We're talking

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Speaker 2: about a relatively small group of people within the total

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Speaker 2: number of people who are receiving welfare. And what happens

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Speaker 2: is those people are often the ones who've got multiple

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Speaker 2: and complex things going on in their lives, and they

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Speaker 2: really need to be engaged with in a way that

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Speaker 2: actually can help them deal with those issues. Rather than,

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Speaker 2: as I say, enforcement of volunteering simply doesn't work. You've

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Speaker 2: got to get beside the people. It sounds, it might sound,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, sound practical, but in actual fact that's

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Speaker 2: what we're doing every day in the Salvation Army. But

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Speaker 2: the people we do get beside is to find the

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Speaker 2: ways to engage positively to help people change their lives.

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Speaker 1: Paul, I mean if I would imagine that what they're

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Speaker 1: trying to do here the government is basically get people

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Speaker 1: who've just gotten to this rut of laziness, get them

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Speaker 1: off out of the couch, off the couch, out of

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Speaker 1: the lounge room, engaging with people and starting to join

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Speaker 1: a community again. Right, If it's not going to be

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Speaker 1: volunteer work, how do you do it?

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Speaker 2: Well? First of all, I don't think that's necessarily what's

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Speaker 2: going on. Often it's at some ate as we find

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Speaker 2: when we are engaging to support people who are trying

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Speaker 2: to deal with working income and been told have been

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Speaker 2: sanctioned or been threatened with sanctions. The fact is it's

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Speaker 2: a simple communication issue. The ministry doesn't isn't able to

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Speaker 2: get hold of that person. For instance, often people don't

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Speaker 2: even have credit on their phones. They may not have

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Speaker 2: a phone. They struggle to get through on these eight

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Speaker 2: hundred numbers where they can be left waiting for ages

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Speaker 2: or they miss return calls because I.

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Speaker 1: Guess I get those are the wrinkles of the situation.

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Speaker 1: But in some cases we just need kids, young people

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Speaker 1: especially to get out of the house and have a

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Speaker 1: shower and go and engage with the world. Right, if

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Speaker 1: it's not going to be volunteer work, what is it

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Speaker 1: that gets them out?

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Speaker 2: Well, certainly volunteer work can be part of that. And

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Speaker 2: what we're saying is, let's do that in a constructive way,

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Speaker 2: not as a punishment, as a sanction, but as just

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Speaker 2: simply something that Work and Income does with all its clients,

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Speaker 2: attempting to engage them in a positive pathway towards work

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Speaker 2: with employers who are willing to take a chance on

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Speaker 2: people and provide a working situation. That recognize is that

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Speaker 2: sometimes people come in offer of welfare of had a

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Speaker 2: rough ride and may well struggle to meet you.

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Speaker 1: To enter people who take the piss right. You know,

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Speaker 1: there are people who are just sitting there playing games

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Speaker 1: all day. You know they exist.

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Speaker 2: Well, And of course we are are also working with

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Speaker 2: people who are pretty challenging. Get some people who can

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Speaker 2: be pretty challenging. But that's not just the point.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, you can't rely on old mate who's

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Speaker 1: nineteen years old and playing grand theft auto to want

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Speaker 1: to go out and hang out with a self army

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Speaker 1: unless you make it compulsory. So how else do you

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Speaker 1: do it?

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Speaker 2: Well? What what is known as works is that positive?

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Speaker 2: For instance, if I can explain to you, the Ministry

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Speaker 2: of Social Development has reallocated people away from working on

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Speaker 2: work that was designed to identify people at risk of

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Speaker 2: becoming homeless before they became homeless, so prevention work. Social

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Speaker 2: Development has stopped doing that work to so that frontline

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Speaker 2: people can be applied to working on sanctions for people now.

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Speaker 2: So our plea is actually that work identifying trying to

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Speaker 2: prevent people getting into these situations that work to support

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Speaker 2: organizations constructively. For instance. You know, as far as I'm aware,

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Speaker 2: there is no additional resourcing being offered to any of

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Speaker 2: the n g os that people are being asked to

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Speaker 2: volunteer with to be involved in this program. We would

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Speaker 2: be looking instead for the ministry to take a constructive

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Speaker 2: approach a lot to fundwork that actually helps unwrap the

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Speaker 2: complex situations that some people are in.

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Speaker 1: All Right, Paul, thank you very much. I do appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: That's Paul Barber, principal social policy analyst at Salvation Army.

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