Speaker 1: Kyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Former Prime
Speaker 2: Minister Jim Bolger has died, aged ninety. He became the
Speaker 2: thirty fifth prime minister after leading National to a landslide
Speaker 2: victory in nineteen nineteen. Bulger was then ousted though by
Speaker 2: his party caucus in nineteen ninety seven and replaced with
Speaker 2: Jenny Shipley. Today on the Front Page News Talks that'd
Speaker 2: be Senior political correspondent Barry Soper is with us to
Speaker 2: take us behind the scenes of Bulger's government and what
Speaker 2: his legacy will be. Tell me, Barry, how did you
Speaker 2: first meet Jim Bolger?
Speaker 3: Well, it goes back a long time. I met him
Speaker 3: in the seventies and I was the industrial roundsman for
Speaker 3: the television in those days, for TV and Z and
Speaker 3: he was the labor Minister for Rob Muldoon. And after
Speaker 3: a short time of me being in my job, I
Speaker 3: was invited up to Bolger's office for a drink. I
Speaker 3: thought this was rather strange, a much older man, a
Speaker 3: young lad, and well it brought home to me the
Speaker 3: power of television that politicians always loved television and Jim
Speaker 3: Bolder was no exception to that. So we had a relationship,
Speaker 3: a good relationship then, although Jim Bolder used to take
Speaker 3: off the then President of the Federation of Labor, Jim Knox,
Speaker 3: was a whole hard liner, and he'd take him off
Speaker 3: at a conference and Knox had a unusual way of speaking,
Speaker 3: and Bold used to mimic him and then expect to
Speaker 3: sit down the next week to talk with this man seriously.
Speaker 3: And of course Jim Knox got very annoyed with him
Speaker 3: about it. But that's by the bye. I mean when
Speaker 3: he became leader, after Jim McLay took over from Muldoon,
Speaker 3: him becoming leader, it was obvious that that was going
Speaker 3: to happen, and I used to rib him about it
Speaker 3: that he really wants the top job when Jim McClay
Speaker 3: got it. And you know, he had a long apprenticeship
Speaker 3: before he became Prime Minister. I think it was about
Speaker 3: eighteen years he had in Parliament, which is much longer
Speaker 3: than any current incumbent or probably anyone in the history
Speaker 3: in this country has had. So he was well equipped
Speaker 3: to take on the job and he took it on.
Speaker 3: He took it on with an interesting beginning because there
Speaker 3: was a super certax on superuritance then and those the
Speaker 3: more wealthy he had to pay at tax on the
Speaker 3: superinnuation and that was a Roger Douglas. He implemented that
Speaker 3: policy and Jim Bolger during the election campaign said no,
Speaker 3: if no, but snow maybe's I'm going to get rid
Speaker 3: of this. Came into office and changed his mind because
Speaker 3: they had other more pressing financial issues to deal with,
Speaker 3: and so that was held against him for a long time.
Speaker 3: I think his legacy, though in politics, will be his
Speaker 3: settlement of maldy Land claims, because up until that point
Speaker 3: there's been a lot of talk about it. But Jim
Speaker 3: Bulger and I think it had a lot to do
Speaker 3: with his Irish background. He was a Roman Catholic born
Speaker 3: of Irish immigrants to this country, left school at fifteen,
Speaker 3: which is rather remarkable, and went on to become Prime minister.
Speaker 3: But he always felt, as I guess a Catholic, that
Speaker 3: they were sort of in the minority. And somebody once
Speaker 3: said to me, a Catholic will never become prime minister
Speaker 3: of this country. Yes, and Jim Bolgier he cut the mold,
Speaker 3: and I think because he could understand people that were
Speaker 3: considered a bit second class citizens. I think he understood
Speaker 3: Moldy much more and really set about with urgency to
Speaker 3: settle mary Land claims. And he did that with Doug Graham,
Speaker 3: who was an excellent negotiative for the treaty settlements.
Speaker 2: So Bolger led the country through some significant economic reforms
Speaker 2: and austerity measures, especially in the early nineties. Tell me
Speaker 2: about that time wasn't quite tense.
Speaker 3: Well, it was tough, and you know it was always
Speaker 3: held against his government that they effectively and they didn't
Speaker 3: do it directly, but they effectively cut welfare benefits, which
Speaker 3: was an odo in this country. And that was Ruth Richison.
Speaker 3: Now Richardson was the Finance minister just after Bulger took over.
Speaker 3: He and Ruth Richardson were never the closest allies, and
Speaker 3: she followed in a way her own agenda, and in
Speaker 3: the end Bulger ended up sacking her because they really
Speaker 3: never saw eye to eye. Although I've heard since his
Speaker 3: death that Ruth Richardson has said I had finished my
Speaker 3: business and you know it was okay that he moved
Speaker 3: me along. Well, that wasn't actually the case at the time. Well,
Speaker 3: that's politics. Isn't that she was none too happy about
Speaker 3: being moved along.
Speaker 4: You've got to both lead and mold. There's no use leading,
Speaker 4: there's no use to general. Been way out in front
Speaker 4: if you've not got the troops along with you. So
Speaker 4: you've got to give the lead. You've got to show
Speaker 4: the correct direction as you can see it, or your
Speaker 4: senior colleagues suggesting perhaps after some discussion in cabinet or whatever.
Speaker 4: But then you've got to mold in the people who
Speaker 4: have doubts, who have other propositions that they want to
Speaker 4: put forward. I mean a caucus of any number, but
Speaker 4: certainly of the size that I will have will have
Speaker 4: different viewpoints. You don't pick clones to represent an electric
Speaker 4: in fact, have a House of representatives, and the caucuses
Speaker 4: of the two major parties do represent a fairly wide spectrum,
Speaker 4: abuse one from the center to the left and the
Speaker 4: other from the center right.
Speaker 2: In general, Jason, during his time in office, New Zealand
Speaker 2: transitioned from the first past the post electoral system to
Speaker 2: of course, the mixed member proportional MMP as we know today.
Speaker 2: Why was this shift important and how did his government
Speaker 2: manage this change? In kind of articulating that to the
Speaker 2: New Zealand people.
Speaker 3: Well, there's been a lot of background before we actually changed.
Speaker 3: It was the referendum and it was almost a fifty
Speaker 3: to fifty MMP or the first past of the post system.
Speaker 3: But really it was a throwaway line by David Longhi
Speaker 3: in a debate, an election debate with Jim Bolger, and
Speaker 3: he talked about let's change the electoral system and Bulger
Speaker 3: sort of said, well, I'd be pleased to see a change,
Speaker 3: and he was held to that after the election, so
Speaker 3: he had a little choice but to hold the referendum,
Speaker 3: which he did and we had a change in the
Speaker 3: electoral system. Interestingly, the first government in nineteen ninety six
Speaker 3: that was the Bolger government. Winston Peters essentially decided the government,
Speaker 3: as he's done many times since, and he and Bolger
Speaker 3: used to be great mates until Winston was removed from
Speaker 3: the National Party and went on to form New Zealand
Speaker 3: First and then made his name an MMP and Bolger
Speaker 3: embraced it. I don't think he particularly liked it, and
Speaker 3: he lost a few senior colleagues as a result of that.
Speaker 3: Philip Burden was won the Trade Minister. He left saying
Speaker 3: he didn't want to work in an MMP system, but Bulger, yeah,
Speaker 3: he embraced it. Had to take Winston on, and he
Speaker 3: was even reluctant to take Winston on as a minister
Speaker 3: three years earlier, but he took him on and those
Speaker 3: two got on very very well. Indeed, many a time
Speaker 3: was I up in the ninth floor office with Jim
Speaker 3: Bolger and Winston Peters knocking back a few good Irish whiskey.
Speaker 3: Bush Mills was his favorite whiskey, and we even one
Speaker 3: stage he loved it so much. We went to the
Speaker 3: bush Mills hostelery in I think it was Scotland or Ireland,
Speaker 3: probably Ireland, and we went to the distillery and Jim
Speaker 3: was right at home there trained visit. But he was
Speaker 3: very good at He loved to hark back to the Irish.
Speaker 3: We had to have a few drinks on board and
Speaker 3: he would affect the Irish accent. And one thing Bulger
Speaker 3: was very good at was accents, and he sort of
Speaker 3: did it almost subconsciously. That you know. When I was
Speaker 3: at a press conference once with him in Ottawa and
Speaker 3: I was standing at the back of the press hoarde
Speaker 3: with a Canadian journalist and Brian mulroney had just spoken,
Speaker 3: and then Bulger had his turn, and this journalist turned
Speaker 3: to me and he said, I never knew York Prime
Speaker 3: Minister was Canadian because he just picked up. And you
Speaker 3: can imagine the difficulty we had after he met the
Speaker 3: Dalai Lama. I mean, the accent was just terrible. That
Speaker 3: was for a while he would affect it, and then
Speaker 3: he had sort of snapped back to Jim Bulga.
Speaker 2: And you went to South African with it?
Speaker 3: Went, yes, I was in Africa with him. We went
Speaker 3: to the Commonwealth Heads Government meeting in Harare in Zimbabwe,
Speaker 3: and we were at a cocktail function there and journalists
Speaker 3: and leaders in those days socialized together at the beginning
Speaker 3: of the conference and we were in the party, if
Speaker 3: you like, and Bolge was sort of making his way
Speaker 3: to the door to sort of exit. He wasn't great
Speaker 3: at small talk. He like to engage in people that
Speaker 3: he knew, so he's sort of getting towards the exit
Speaker 3: and suddenly the door opens and this man in a jalaba,
Speaker 3: full African dress comes through and he said to me,
Speaker 3: are you with the Prime minister? And journalists don't like
Speaker 3: to be with the prime minister, but I said, well,
Speaker 3: our Prime minister, is that man there Jim Bolger, And
Speaker 3: he said I have somebody he should meet, And through
Speaker 3: the door came Nelson Mandela. So I introduced Bulger to
Speaker 3: Nelson Mandela. First thing I was aware of was this
Speaker 3: hand on my shoulder shoving me aside, and he had
Speaker 3: cut a sway through the crowd. Bob Hawk, now Bob
Speaker 3: howk wanted to get in the shot with Mount Nelson Mandela.
Speaker 3: Bolgier was shrewd enough to sign up Mandala the next
Speaker 3: morning to have breakfast with, which was great for us
Speaker 3: because we went along to the breakfast, we interviewed Nelson Mandela,
Speaker 3: and you know, and then later the man he once
Speaker 3: called a terrorist, this is Jim Bolger to Mandala, we
Speaker 3: went to as anauguration, and I years later went to
Speaker 3: his funeral as well in Pretoria.
Speaker 2: Right, So he stood in the way of Bob Hawk
Speaker 2: getting a picky with Nelson Man.
Speaker 3: No doubt knowing Bob Hawkey most certainly would have got
Speaker 3: a picky, but I think Bolger moved very debtly and
Speaker 3: decided that he wanted to do it. There was another
Speaker 3: story at that at the inauguration that we went to
Speaker 3: later that we were at a We shouldn't have been there,
Speaker 3: but they thought that we were part of the official delegation.
Speaker 3: And we got into the lunch and Hillary Clinton was
Speaker 3: there and she was filling in for the president he
Speaker 3: couldn't make it. And Bulger was there, of course, and
Speaker 3: I was standing near Bulger's table, and Bulger beckoned me
Speaker 3: over and he had this rather large bottle. It was
Speaker 3: a litter and a half of Niteberg Cabinet savignon which
Speaker 3: was being served at the dinner, and it had the
Speaker 3: presidential crest on the bottle. And I said, where'd you
Speaker 3: get that from?
Speaker 2: Jim?
Speaker 3: And he said, oh, that waiter over there, he said,
Speaker 3: would you like a souvenir? So he gave gave Jim
Speaker 3: this bottle. So I thought, Bugger that if he can
Speaker 3: get it, I can get it as well. So I
Speaker 3: went over to the waiter and said, look, was there
Speaker 3: any chance I'm from New Zealand? Can I take a souvenir?
Speaker 3: He gave me a bottle. I still have mine. I
Speaker 3: think Jim drunk is a long time ago.
Speaker 2: Fortunately, looking at Jim Bulger's legacy, what considered his most
Speaker 2: enduring contributions to New Zealand because it didn't stop after
Speaker 2: he stepped back from being a Prime minister and National
Speaker 2: Party leader.
Speaker 3: Hey no, well he became an ambassador after that to Washington.
Speaker 3: But I think you know that government will be remembered
Speaker 3: more than anything else for its settlement treaty process, because
Speaker 3: you know, one would think that Labor would be the
Speaker 3: party that would settle, but it was really that National
Speaker 3: Government with Doug Graham that set about settling these grievances.
Speaker 3: And interestingly he pulled the rug from beneath the unions
Speaker 3: in the time that he was in office, introducing the
Speaker 3: Employment Contracts Act, and that's sort of sideline unions to
Speaker 3: a large extent, and it was very controversial. But then
Speaker 3: lo and behold. A number of years later he fell
Speaker 3: out with a lot of his National Party colleagues because
Speaker 3: he chaired the committee that saw the free the Countment
Speaker 3: at Fair Pay, the Fair Pay agreements which brought the
Speaker 3: unions back full force into play and welcome by the
Speaker 3: ardun government. And he also became chair of Kiwi Rail
Speaker 3: under I think it was Helen Clark that he was
Speaker 3: offered that job. So there were plenty of jobs that
Speaker 3: came Jim Bolger's way post politics.
Speaker 2: Tell me what happened behind the scenes when Bolger resigned
Speaker 2: as Prime minister. That was in ninety seven. Hey, I
Speaker 2: read his press release from the time announcing it, and
Speaker 2: he said, having now completed over seven years as Prime Minister,
Speaker 2: nearly twelve years as leader of the National Party and
Speaker 2: fourteen years as minister, changing circumstances make it appropriate for
Speaker 2: me to step down as Prime minister. What were those
Speaker 2: changing circumstances?
Speaker 3: It was a knife in his back, a changing circumstance
Speaker 3: held by Jenny Shipley and White Creechure, who was became
Speaker 3: her deputy. He was a cabinet minister. But I was
Speaker 3: in Europe with Jim Bulger when they did the numbers
Speaker 3: back home here, and we all knew that time was
Speaker 3: running out for Bulger in terms of his popularity within
Speaker 3: his own caucus, and as a result they did the
Speaker 3: numbers when he was overseas. The hapless Doug Graham was
Speaker 3: sent to the airport to give Jim Bulger the news
Speaker 3: when he arrived back in the country. Now, I stayed
Speaker 3: on in Europe because I had some friends in Germany,
Speaker 3: thinking that he won't be rolled this year. It was
Speaker 3: late in the year, he'll be rolled the following year. Well,
Speaker 3: I was called in the middle of the night in
Speaker 3: Germany to say Jim Bulger's gone. It was unbelievable that
Speaker 3: even he he resisted right up until the last moment.
Speaker 3: And that press statement is a typical political press statement.
Speaker 3: I know the man who wrote it very well and
Speaker 3: yet colored over what was really a backstabbing exercise in
Speaker 3: the National Party. And as a result, Jumie Shipley and
Speaker 3: Jim Volgon never really saw right Why after that.
Speaker 1: Time, Missus Speaker, I didn't have the privilege of knowing
Speaker 1: Jim well personally, but since becoming Prime Minister, I received
Speaker 1: a few quiet phone calls from him. They were short,
Speaker 1: sincere and thoughtful. He offered encouragement, perspective and advice, advice
Speaker 1: that I took seriously. And I also remember campaigning with
Speaker 1: him in a bar. And why can I and him
Speaker 1: still holding court in a room full of people, sharp
Speaker 1: as ever, fully engage, loving politics and very much enjoying himself.
Speaker 1: He just turned eighty seven.
Speaker 2: What have other politicians said about him?
Speaker 3: Well, I've been listening to them, Dan Even and Ruth Richardson,
Speaker 3: you know, put the nice gloss on her sacking. As
Speaker 3: I said earlier that she said she had finished the business. Well,
Speaker 3: she really wanted to continue the business, but Bolger decided
Speaker 3: otherwise after being pressured by his own cabinet colleagues. So yeah,
Speaker 3: he was. The other politicians that I've heard is John Key.
Speaker 3: Well John k never really was in politics when Jim
Speaker 3: Bolger was there, but he had dealings with me. He
Speaker 3: said that Jim used to call him from time to
Speaker 3: time and not read the Riot Act, but point out
Speaker 3: where he could maybe have gone better or perform better.
Speaker 3: And I'm sure he's never been backward and forward and
Speaker 3: giving his views, including to me when I stepped out
Speaker 3: of line. He was pretty pretty trench into his criticism.
Speaker 3: But generally, I think those who remember Jim Bolger remember
Speaker 3: him as a really good bloke. I mean, he was a.
Speaker 2: Nice man, farming kind right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the I think and I really feel today
Speaker 3: for his lovely wife, Joan. Joan was I used to
Speaker 3: say long suffering, but she loved him implicitly and vice versa.
Speaker 3: And Joan. You know, I remember on election campaigns that
Speaker 3: Jim would be out on the hustings and he'd be
Speaker 3: giving the same speech essentially night after night, and Joan
Speaker 3: would be sitting in the front row laughing at the
Speaker 3: jokes that she had heard last night. So I thought,
Speaker 3: you are long suffering. But she's a remarkable woman. And
Speaker 3: of course he had nine children, and I'm really pleased
Speaker 3: to hear that the nine children were with him, along
Speaker 3: with the wonderful Joan and a number of his eighteen grandchildren.
Speaker 2: Wow. How so we mentioned Winston Peters before, obviously, and
Speaker 2: it was a funny that you say that he's always
Speaker 2: been the king Maker, right. I remember I was looking
Speaker 2: up old newspapers for another story that I was doing
Speaker 2: back in the day. I think it was about missing
Speaker 2: people of New Zealand, and I was flicking through the
Speaker 2: papers any information about these missing people, and there was
Speaker 2: Winston on the front page, with a lot more hair,
Speaker 2: a lot darker, and across at Kingmaker. I saw that
Speaker 2: Winston Peters said in a statement, everyone with a knowledge
Speaker 2: of New Zealand political history from the late eighties to
Speaker 2: early nineties will know that the two of us sometimes
Speaker 2: had our policy differences. Exclamation mark.
Speaker 3: Well, no doubt about it. You know that Winston's not
Speaker 3: the easiest of characters, and you know he's pretty Trenchant
Speaker 3: in his views, and Bolger knew that Bolger was reluctant
Speaker 3: to even have Winston in his cabinet before when Winston
Speaker 3: was part of the National Party, but Winston was out
Speaker 3: polling Bulger at the time, and I remember saying to
Speaker 3: Jim when he became Prime minister, you've got to have
Speaker 3: Winston in your cabinet, and he gave him a portfolio
Speaker 3: that Winston was never really comfortable with MOLDI affears, so
Speaker 3: it was probably a bit of a slap in the
Speaker 3: face for Winston. But lot, Winston and Bolger got on
Speaker 3: really well. And indeed, you know Winston with most like
Speaker 3: with Helen Clark got on very well as well. So
Speaker 3: like or dislike his politics, he's a consummate politician, There's
Speaker 3: no doubt about that.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Barry, my pleasure. That's it for
Speaker 2: this episode of The Front Page. You can read more
Speaker 2: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at ensidherld dot
Speaker 2: co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by Jane
Speaker 2: Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm
Speaker 2: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or
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Speaker 2: for another look behind the headlines.