WEBVTT - Barry Soper remembers Jim Bolger as a 'really good bloke' 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:06.120 Kyota. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.320 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:16.480 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Former Prime 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:21.560 Minister Jim Bolger has died, aged ninety. He became the 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.760 thirty fifth prime minister after leading National to a landslide 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:30.040 victory in nineteen nineteen. Bulger was then ousted though by 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.559 his party caucus in nineteen ninety seven and replaced with 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:36.640 Jenny Shipley. Today on the Front Page News Talks that'd 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.680 be Senior political correspondent Barry Soper is with us to 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:44.239 take us behind the scenes of Bulger's government and what 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:50.360 his legacy will be. Tell me, Barry, how did you 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:51.960 first meet Jim Bolger? 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.880 Well, it goes back a long time. I met him 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.200 in the seventies and I was the industrial roundsman for 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.280 the television in those days, for TV and Z and 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:08.640 he was the labor Minister for Rob Muldoon. And after 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:10.840 a short time of me being in my job, I 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.640 was invited up to Bolger's office for a drink. I 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:15.920 thought this was rather strange, a much older man, a 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.520 young lad, and well it brought home to me the 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.600 power of television that politicians always loved television and Jim 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.160 Bolder was no exception to that. So we had a relationship, 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.520 a good relationship then, although Jim Bolder used to take 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.240 off the then President of the Federation of Labor, Jim Knox, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.119 was a whole hard liner, and he'd take him off 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:42.040 at a conference and Knox had a unusual way of speaking, 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.400 and Bold used to mimic him and then expect to 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.720 sit down the next week to talk with this man seriously. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.600 And of course Jim Knox got very annoyed with him 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.360 about it. But that's by the bye. I mean when 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:59.400 he became leader, after Jim McLay took over from Muldoon, 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.400 him becoming leader, it was obvious that that was going 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:05.520 to happen, and I used to rib him about it 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.480 that he really wants the top job when Jim McClay 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.040 got it. And you know, he had a long apprenticeship 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.880 before he became Prime Minister. I think it was about 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:17.040 eighteen years he had in Parliament, which is much longer 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:21.160 than any current incumbent or probably anyone in the history 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.519 in this country has had. So he was well equipped 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:27.080 to take on the job and he took it on. 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:33.000 He took it on with an interesting beginning because there 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:37.880 was a super certax on superuritance then and those the 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:39.760 more wealthy he had to pay at tax on the 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:46.240 superinnuation and that was a Roger Douglas. He implemented that 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.520 policy and Jim Bolger during the election campaign said no, 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:52.760 if no, but snow maybe's I'm going to get rid 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.680 of this. Came into office and changed his mind because 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.919 they had other more pressing financial issues to deal with, 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.320 and so that was held against him for a long time. 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.720 I think his legacy, though in politics, will be his 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:15.720 settlement of maldy Land claims, because up until that point 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.320 there's been a lot of talk about it. But Jim 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:19.800 Bulger and I think it had a lot to do 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.120 with his Irish background. He was a Roman Catholic born 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.440 of Irish immigrants to this country, left school at fifteen, 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:29.360 which is rather remarkable, and went on to become Prime minister. 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:34.480 But he always felt, as I guess a Catholic, that 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.240 they were sort of in the minority. And somebody once 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:39.840 said to me, a Catholic will never become prime minister 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:44.600 of this country. Yes, and Jim Bolgier he cut the mold, 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:51.520 and I think because he could understand people that were 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:55.200 considered a bit second class citizens. I think he understood 0:03:55.280 --> 0:04:02.560 Moldy much more and really set about with urgency to 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.800 settle mary Land claims. And he did that with Doug Graham, 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.520 who was an excellent negotiative for the treaty settlements. 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:15.680 So Bolger led the country through some significant economic reforms 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.479 and austerity measures, especially in the early nineties. Tell me 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.040 about that time wasn't quite tense. 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.479 Well, it was tough, and you know it was always 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.919 held against his government that they effectively and they didn't 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.560 do it directly, but they effectively cut welfare benefits, which 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.719 was an odo in this country. And that was Ruth Richison. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.440 Now Richardson was the Finance minister just after Bulger took over. 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:45.000 He and Ruth Richardson were never the closest allies, and 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:49.240 she followed in a way her own agenda, and in 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:53.520 the end Bulger ended up sacking her because they really 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.479 never saw eye to eye. Although I've heard since his 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.320 death that Ruth Richardson has said I had finished my 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.680 business and you know it was okay that he moved 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:08.040 me along. Well, that wasn't actually the case at the time. Well, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.719 that's politics. Isn't that she was none too happy about 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:12.880 being moved along. 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.480 You've got to both lead and mold. There's no use leading, 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:26.760 there's no use to general. Been way out in front 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.320 if you've not got the troops along with you. So 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:31.479 you've got to give the lead. You've got to show 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.080 the correct direction as you can see it, or your 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:39.160 senior colleagues suggesting perhaps after some discussion in cabinet or whatever. 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.240 But then you've got to mold in the people who 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.000 have doubts, who have other propositions that they want to 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.599 put forward. I mean a caucus of any number, but 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:51.960 certainly of the size that I will have will have 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.640 different viewpoints. You don't pick clones to represent an electric 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.880 in fact, have a House of representatives, and the caucuses 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.000 of the two major parties do represent a fairly wide spectrum, 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.159 abuse one from the center to the left and the 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:06.200 other from the center right. 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:11.360 In general, Jason, during his time in office, New Zealand 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.800 transitioned from the first past the post electoral system to 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.520 of course, the mixed member proportional MMP as we know today. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.360 Why was this shift important and how did his government 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.919 manage this change? In kind of articulating that to the 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:26.839 New Zealand people. 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.440 Well, there's been a lot of background before we actually changed. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.640 It was the referendum and it was almost a fifty 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:39.240 to fifty MMP or the first past of the post system. 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:43.080 But really it was a throwaway line by David Longhi 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.760 in a debate, an election debate with Jim Bolger, and 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.040 he talked about let's change the electoral system and Bulger 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:53.599 sort of said, well, I'd be pleased to see a change, 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.880 and he was held to that after the election, so 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.200 he had a little choice but to hold the referendum, 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.120 which he did and we had a change in the 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:08.000 electoral system. Interestingly, the first government in nineteen ninety six 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:13.960 that was the Bolger government. Winston Peters essentially decided the government, 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.600 as he's done many times since, and he and Bolger 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.440 used to be great mates until Winston was removed from 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.120 the National Party and went on to form New Zealand 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.679 First and then made his name an MMP and Bolger 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.920 embraced it. I don't think he particularly liked it, and 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.720 he lost a few senior colleagues as a result of that. 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.360 Philip Burden was won the Trade Minister. He left saying 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:41.440 he didn't want to work in an MMP system, but Bulger, yeah, 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.280 he embraced it. Had to take Winston on, and he 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.239 was even reluctant to take Winston on as a minister 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.600 three years earlier, but he took him on and those 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.480 two got on very very well. Indeed, many a time 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.120 was I up in the ninth floor office with Jim 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:03.120 Bolger and Winston Peters knocking back a few good Irish whiskey. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.200 Bush Mills was his favorite whiskey, and we even one 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.960 stage he loved it so much. We went to the 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:15.480 bush Mills hostelery in I think it was Scotland or Ireland, 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.880 probably Ireland, and we went to the distillery and Jim 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:23.080 was right at home there trained visit. But he was 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:27.520 very good at He loved to hark back to the Irish. 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.720 We had to have a few drinks on board and 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.280 he would affect the Irish accent. And one thing Bulger 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.400 was very good at was accents, and he sort of 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.160 did it almost subconsciously. That you know. When I was 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.000 at a press conference once with him in Ottawa and 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.760 I was standing at the back of the press hoarde 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.440 with a Canadian journalist and Brian mulroney had just spoken, 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.920 and then Bulger had his turn, and this journalist turned 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.000 to me and he said, I never knew York Prime 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.840 Minister was Canadian because he just picked up. And you 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.599 can imagine the difficulty we had after he met the 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:06.839 Dalai Lama. I mean, the accent was just terrible. That 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.440 was for a while he would affect it, and then 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:15.640 he had sort of snapped back to Jim Bulga. 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:15.920 And you went to South African with it? 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.040 Went, yes, I was in Africa with him. We went 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:25.040 to the Commonwealth Heads Government meeting in Harare in Zimbabwe, 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:30.920 and we were at a cocktail function there and journalists 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:35.600 and leaders in those days socialized together at the beginning 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:40.960 of the conference and we were in the party, if 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.000 you like, and Bolge was sort of making his way 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.800 to the door to sort of exit. He wasn't great 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.160 at small talk. He like to engage in people that 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.400 he knew, so he's sort of getting towards the exit 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.200 and suddenly the door opens and this man in a jalaba, 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.600 full African dress comes through and he said to me, 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.120 are you with the Prime minister? And journalists don't like 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:04.960 to be with the prime minister, but I said, well, 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.520 our Prime minister, is that man there Jim Bolger, And 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.320 he said I have somebody he should meet, And through 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:15.000 the door came Nelson Mandela. So I introduced Bulger to 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.040 Nelson Mandela. First thing I was aware of was this 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:22.120 hand on my shoulder shoving me aside, and he had 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.800 cut a sway through the crowd. Bob Hawk, now Bob 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:30.760 howk wanted to get in the shot with Mount Nelson Mandela. 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.440 Bolgier was shrewd enough to sign up Mandala the next 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.480 morning to have breakfast with, which was great for us 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.880 because we went along to the breakfast, we interviewed Nelson Mandela, 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.480 and you know, and then later the man he once 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:49.120 called a terrorist, this is Jim Bolger to Mandala, we 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:54.240 went to as anauguration, and I years later went to 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.080 his funeral as well in Pretoria. 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.000 Right, So he stood in the way of Bob Hawk 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:00.920 getting a picky with Nelson Man. 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.160 No doubt knowing Bob Hawkey most certainly would have got 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.800 a picky, but I think Bolger moved very debtly and 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.439 decided that he wanted to do it. There was another 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.600 story at that at the inauguration that we went to 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.680 later that we were at a We shouldn't have been there, 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.520 but they thought that we were part of the official delegation. 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:24.680 And we got into the lunch and Hillary Clinton was 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.600 there and she was filling in for the president he 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:32.160 couldn't make it. And Bulger was there, of course, and 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.600 I was standing near Bulger's table, and Bulger beckoned me 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.280 over and he had this rather large bottle. It was 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:43.400 a litter and a half of Niteberg Cabinet savignon which 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.720 was being served at the dinner, and it had the 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.319 presidential crest on the bottle. And I said, where'd you 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:49.760 get that from? 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:50.080 Jim? 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.200 And he said, oh, that waiter over there, he said, 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.760 would you like a souvenir? So he gave gave Jim 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.079 this bottle. So I thought, Bugger that if he can 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:00.560 get it, I can get it as well. So I 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:02.800 went over to the waiter and said, look, was there 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.840 any chance I'm from New Zealand? Can I take a souvenir? 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.840 He gave me a bottle. I still have mine. I 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:10.920 think Jim drunk is a long time ago. 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:17.600 Fortunately, looking at Jim Bulger's legacy, what considered his most 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.920 enduring contributions to New Zealand because it didn't stop after 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.240 he stepped back from being a Prime minister and National 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:25.880 Party leader. 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.400 Hey no, well he became an ambassador after that to Washington. 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.080 But I think you know that government will be remembered 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:37.120 more than anything else for its settlement treaty process, because 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:39.600 you know, one would think that Labor would be the 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.800 party that would settle, but it was really that National 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:48.520 Government with Doug Graham that set about settling these grievances. 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:54.839 And interestingly he pulled the rug from beneath the unions 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.720 in the time that he was in office, introducing the 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.560 Employment Contracts Act, and that's sort of sideline unions to 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.000 a large extent, and it was very controversial. But then 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.560 lo and behold. A number of years later he fell 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.679 out with a lot of his National Party colleagues because 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:15.840 he chaired the committee that saw the free the Countment 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.920 at Fair Pay, the Fair Pay agreements which brought the 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.800 unions back full force into play and welcome by the 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.760 ardun government. And he also became chair of Kiwi Rail 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.120 under I think it was Helen Clark that he was 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.600 offered that job. So there were plenty of jobs that 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.760 came Jim Bolger's way post politics. 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.200 Tell me what happened behind the scenes when Bolger resigned 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.240 as Prime minister. That was in ninety seven. Hey, I 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.680 read his press release from the time announcing it, and 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.920 he said, having now completed over seven years as Prime Minister, 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.040 nearly twelve years as leader of the National Party and 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:58.800 fourteen years as minister, changing circumstances make it appropriate for 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.280 me to step down as Prime minister. What were those 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:02.880 changing circumstances? 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.240 It was a knife in his back, a changing circumstance 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:11.400 held by Jenny Shipley and White Creechure, who was became 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:16.000 her deputy. He was a cabinet minister. But I was 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.320 in Europe with Jim Bulger when they did the numbers 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:23.000 back home here, and we all knew that time was 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:26.000 running out for Bulger in terms of his popularity within 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.960 his own caucus, and as a result they did the 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.560 numbers when he was overseas. The hapless Doug Graham was 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.480 sent to the airport to give Jim Bulger the news 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.920 when he arrived back in the country. Now, I stayed 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.160 on in Europe because I had some friends in Germany, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:45.880 thinking that he won't be rolled this year. It was 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.680 late in the year, he'll be rolled the following year. Well, 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:50.120 I was called in the middle of the night in 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.480 Germany to say Jim Bulger's gone. It was unbelievable that 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:59.320 even he he resisted right up until the last moment. 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.280 And that press statement is a typical political press statement. 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.240 I know the man who wrote it very well and 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:12.320 yet colored over what was really a backstabbing exercise in 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.960 the National Party. And as a result, Jumie Shipley and 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.080 Jim Volgon never really saw right Why after that. 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:26.840 Time, Missus Speaker, I didn't have the privilege of knowing 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.280 Jim well personally, but since becoming Prime Minister, I received 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.960 a few quiet phone calls from him. They were short, 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:38.280 sincere and thoughtful. He offered encouragement, perspective and advice, advice 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.800 that I took seriously. And I also remember campaigning with 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:43.920 him in a bar. And why can I and him 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.240 still holding court in a room full of people, sharp 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.640 as ever, fully engage, loving politics and very much enjoying himself. 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:52.200 He just turned eighty seven. 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.600 What have other politicians said about him? 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.800 Well, I've been listening to them, Dan Even and Ruth Richardson, 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.560 you know, put the nice gloss on her sacking. As 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.680 I said earlier that she said she had finished the business. Well, 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.760 she really wanted to continue the business, but Bolger decided 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:17.960 otherwise after being pressured by his own cabinet colleagues. So yeah, 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:22.640 he was. The other politicians that I've heard is John Key. 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.520 Well John k never really was in politics when Jim 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.520 Bolger was there, but he had dealings with me. He 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:31.520 said that Jim used to call him from time to 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.880 time and not read the Riot Act, but point out 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.760 where he could maybe have gone better or perform better. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.760 And I'm sure he's never been backward and forward and 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.680 giving his views, including to me when I stepped out 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.840 of line. He was pretty pretty trench into his criticism. 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:52.840 But generally, I think those who remember Jim Bolger remember 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.760 him as a really good bloke. I mean, he was a. 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:58.680 Nice man, farming kind right. 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.680 Yeah, Well, the I think and I really feel today 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.320 for his lovely wife, Joan. Joan was I used to 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.080 say long suffering, but she loved him implicitly and vice versa. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:15.320 And Joan. You know, I remember on election campaigns that 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.840 Jim would be out on the hustings and he'd be 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.560 giving the same speech essentially night after night, and Joan 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.040 would be sitting in the front row laughing at the 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.800 jokes that she had heard last night. So I thought, 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.960 you are long suffering. But she's a remarkable woman. And 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:34.240 of course he had nine children, and I'm really pleased 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.080 to hear that the nine children were with him, along 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.920 with the wonderful Joan and a number of his eighteen grandchildren. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:46.879 Wow. How so we mentioned Winston Peters before, obviously, and 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:48.840 it was a funny that you say that he's always 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.439 been the king Maker, right. I remember I was looking 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.280 up old newspapers for another story that I was doing 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:56.879 back in the day. I think it was about missing 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:58.919 people of New Zealand, and I was flicking through the 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:03.879 papers any information about these missing people, and there was 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.880 Winston on the front page, with a lot more hair, 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:12.400 a lot darker, and across at Kingmaker. I saw that 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.840 Winston Peters said in a statement, everyone with a knowledge 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.520 of New Zealand political history from the late eighties to 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.560 early nineties will know that the two of us sometimes 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:25.080 had our policy differences. Exclamation mark. 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.240 Well, no doubt about it. You know that Winston's not 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:32.040 the easiest of characters, and you know he's pretty Trenchant 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.480 in his views, and Bolger knew that Bolger was reluctant 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.919 to even have Winston in his cabinet before when Winston 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:42.320 was part of the National Party, but Winston was out 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.520 polling Bulger at the time, and I remember saying to 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:47.639 Jim when he became Prime minister, you've got to have 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.800 Winston in your cabinet, and he gave him a portfolio 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:55.600 that Winston was never really comfortable with MOLDI affears, so 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.119 it was probably a bit of a slap in the 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.399 face for Winston. But lot, Winston and Bolger got on 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.320 really well. And indeed, you know Winston with most like 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.639 with Helen Clark got on very well as well. So 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:11.160 like or dislike his politics, he's a consummate politician, There's 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:11.800 no doubt about that. 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:17.520 Thanks for joining us, Barry, my pleasure. That's it for 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.680 this episode of The Front Page. You can read more 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:25.240 about today's stories and extensive news coverage at ensidherld dot 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.960 co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by Jane 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:32.639 Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.960 Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.200 wherever you get your podcasts and tune in on Monday 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.320 for another look behind the headlines.