1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Former Prime 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 2: Minister Jim Bolger has died, aged ninety. He became the 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 2: thirty fifth prime minister after leading National to a landslide 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: victory in nineteen nineteen. Bulger was then ousted though by 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 2: his party caucus in nineteen ninety seven and replaced with 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: Jenny Shipley. Today on the Front Page News Talks that'd 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: be Senior political correspondent Barry Soper is with us to 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 2: take us behind the scenes of Bulger's government and what 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: his legacy will be. Tell me, Barry, how did you 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: first meet Jim Bolger? 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 3: Well, it goes back a long time. I met him 14 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 3: in the seventies and I was the industrial roundsman for 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 3: the television in those days, for TV and Z and 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: he was the labor Minister for Rob Muldoon. And after 17 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 3: a short time of me being in my job, I 18 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 3: was invited up to Bolger's office for a drink. I 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 3: thought this was rather strange, a much older man, a 20 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 3: young lad, and well it brought home to me the 21 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 3: power of television that politicians always loved television and Jim 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 3: Bolder was no exception to that. So we had a relationship, 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 3: a good relationship then, although Jim Bolder used to take 24 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 3: off the then President of the Federation of Labor, Jim Knox, 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 3: was a whole hard liner, and he'd take him off 26 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 3: at a conference and Knox had a unusual way of speaking, 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 3: and Bold used to mimic him and then expect to 28 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 3: sit down the next week to talk with this man seriously. 29 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: And of course Jim Knox got very annoyed with him 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: about it. But that's by the bye. I mean when 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: he became leader, after Jim McLay took over from Muldoon, 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 3: him becoming leader, it was obvious that that was going 33 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 3: to happen, and I used to rib him about it 34 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 3: that he really wants the top job when Jim McClay 35 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 3: got it. And you know, he had a long apprenticeship 36 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: before he became Prime Minister. I think it was about 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: eighteen years he had in Parliament, which is much longer 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 3: than any current incumbent or probably anyone in the history 39 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 3: in this country has had. So he was well equipped 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 3: to take on the job and he took it on. 41 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 3: He took it on with an interesting beginning because there 42 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 3: was a super certax on superuritance then and those the 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: more wealthy he had to pay at tax on the 44 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 3: superinnuation and that was a Roger Douglas. He implemented that 45 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 3: policy and Jim Bolger during the election campaign said no, 46 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: if no, but snow maybe's I'm going to get rid 47 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: of this. Came into office and changed his mind because 48 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 3: they had other more pressing financial issues to deal with, 49 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: and so that was held against him for a long time. 50 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: I think his legacy, though in politics, will be his 51 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 3: settlement of maldy Land claims, because up until that point 52 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 3: there's been a lot of talk about it. But Jim 53 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 3: Bulger and I think it had a lot to do 54 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: with his Irish background. He was a Roman Catholic born 55 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: of Irish immigrants to this country, left school at fifteen, 56 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: which is rather remarkable, and went on to become Prime minister. 57 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: But he always felt, as I guess a Catholic, that 58 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 3: they were sort of in the minority. And somebody once 59 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: said to me, a Catholic will never become prime minister 60 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: of this country. Yes, and Jim Bolgier he cut the mold, 61 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 3: and I think because he could understand people that were 62 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 3: considered a bit second class citizens. I think he understood 63 00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 3: Moldy much more and really set about with urgency to 64 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: settle mary Land claims. And he did that with Doug Graham, 65 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 3: who was an excellent negotiative for the treaty settlements. 66 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: So Bolger led the country through some significant economic reforms 67 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 2: and austerity measures, especially in the early nineties. Tell me 68 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: about that time wasn't quite tense. 69 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 3: Well, it was tough, and you know it was always 70 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 3: held against his government that they effectively and they didn't 71 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: do it directly, but they effectively cut welfare benefits, which 72 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 3: was an odo in this country. And that was Ruth Richison. 73 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 3: Now Richardson was the Finance minister just after Bulger took over. 74 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 3: He and Ruth Richardson were never the closest allies, and 75 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: she followed in a way her own agenda, and in 76 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: the end Bulger ended up sacking her because they really 77 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 3: never saw eye to eye. Although I've heard since his 78 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: death that Ruth Richardson has said I had finished my 79 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: business and you know it was okay that he moved 80 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 3: me along. Well, that wasn't actually the case at the time. Well, 81 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 3: that's politics. Isn't that she was none too happy about 82 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: being moved along. 83 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 4: You've got to both lead and mold. There's no use leading, 84 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 4: there's no use to general. Been way out in front 85 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: if you've not got the troops along with you. So 86 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 4: you've got to give the lead. You've got to show 87 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 4: the correct direction as you can see it, or your 88 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 4: senior colleagues suggesting perhaps after some discussion in cabinet or whatever. 89 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 4: But then you've got to mold in the people who 90 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 4: have doubts, who have other propositions that they want to 91 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 4: put forward. I mean a caucus of any number, but 92 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 4: certainly of the size that I will have will have 93 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 4: different viewpoints. You don't pick clones to represent an electric 94 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 4: in fact, have a House of representatives, and the caucuses 95 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 4: of the two major parties do represent a fairly wide spectrum, 96 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 4: abuse one from the center to the left and the 97 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 4: other from the center right. 98 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 2: In general, Jason, during his time in office, New Zealand 99 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: transitioned from the first past the post electoral system to 100 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: of course, the mixed member proportional MMP as we know today. 101 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: Why was this shift important and how did his government 102 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 2: manage this change? In kind of articulating that to the 103 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: New Zealand people. 104 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: Well, there's been a lot of background before we actually changed. 105 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: It was the referendum and it was almost a fifty 106 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 3: to fifty MMP or the first past of the post system. 107 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 3: But really it was a throwaway line by David Longhi 108 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: in a debate, an election debate with Jim Bolger, and 109 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 3: he talked about let's change the electoral system and Bulger 110 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 3: sort of said, well, I'd be pleased to see a change, 111 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: and he was held to that after the election, so 112 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: he had a little choice but to hold the referendum, 113 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: which he did and we had a change in the 114 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 3: electoral system. Interestingly, the first government in nineteen ninety six 115 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 3: that was the Bolger government. Winston Peters essentially decided the government, 116 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 3: as he's done many times since, and he and Bolger 117 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 3: used to be great mates until Winston was removed from 118 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: the National Party and went on to form New Zealand 119 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 3: First and then made his name an MMP and Bolger 120 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 3: embraced it. I don't think he particularly liked it, and 121 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 3: he lost a few senior colleagues as a result of that. 122 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: Philip Burden was won the Trade Minister. He left saying 123 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 3: he didn't want to work in an MMP system, but Bulger, yeah, 124 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: he embraced it. Had to take Winston on, and he 125 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,239 Speaker 3: was even reluctant to take Winston on as a minister 126 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: three years earlier, but he took him on and those 127 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 3: two got on very very well. Indeed, many a time 128 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 3: was I up in the ninth floor office with Jim 129 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 3: Bolger and Winston Peters knocking back a few good Irish whiskey. 130 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 3: Bush Mills was his favorite whiskey, and we even one 131 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: stage he loved it so much. We went to the 132 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 3: bush Mills hostelery in I think it was Scotland or Ireland, 133 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 3: probably Ireland, and we went to the distillery and Jim 134 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 3: was right at home there trained visit. But he was 135 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 3: very good at He loved to hark back to the Irish. 136 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 3: We had to have a few drinks on board and 137 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 3: he would affect the Irish accent. And one thing Bulger 138 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 3: was very good at was accents, and he sort of 139 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 3: did it almost subconsciously. That you know. When I was 140 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 3: at a press conference once with him in Ottawa and 141 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 3: I was standing at the back of the press hoarde 142 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 3: with a Canadian journalist and Brian mulroney had just spoken, 143 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: and then Bulger had his turn, and this journalist turned 144 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: to me and he said, I never knew York Prime 145 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 3: Minister was Canadian because he just picked up. And you 146 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 3: can imagine the difficulty we had after he met the 147 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 3: Dalai Lama. I mean, the accent was just terrible. That 148 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 3: was for a while he would affect it, and then 149 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 3: he had sort of snapped back to Jim Bulga. 150 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: And you went to South African with it? 151 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: Went, yes, I was in Africa with him. We went 152 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: to the Commonwealth Heads Government meeting in Harare in Zimbabwe, 153 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: and we were at a cocktail function there and journalists 154 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 3: and leaders in those days socialized together at the beginning 155 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 3: of the conference and we were in the party, if 156 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 3: you like, and Bolge was sort of making his way 157 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 3: to the door to sort of exit. He wasn't great 158 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: at small talk. He like to engage in people that 159 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: he knew, so he's sort of getting towards the exit 160 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 3: and suddenly the door opens and this man in a jalaba, 161 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 3: full African dress comes through and he said to me, 162 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: are you with the Prime minister? And journalists don't like 163 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 3: to be with the prime minister, but I said, well, 164 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 3: our Prime minister, is that man there Jim Bolger, And 165 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 3: he said I have somebody he should meet, And through 166 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: the door came Nelson Mandela. So I introduced Bulger to 167 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: Nelson Mandela. First thing I was aware of was this 168 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: hand on my shoulder shoving me aside, and he had 169 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 3: cut a sway through the crowd. Bob Hawk, now Bob 170 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 3: howk wanted to get in the shot with Mount Nelson Mandela. 171 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 3: Bolgier was shrewd enough to sign up Mandala the next 172 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 3: morning to have breakfast with, which was great for us 173 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: because we went along to the breakfast, we interviewed Nelson Mandela, 174 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 3: and you know, and then later the man he once 175 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: called a terrorist, this is Jim Bolger to Mandala, we 176 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: went to as anauguration, and I years later went to 177 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: his funeral as well in Pretoria. 178 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: Right, So he stood in the way of Bob Hawk 179 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: getting a picky with Nelson Man. 180 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 3: No doubt knowing Bob Hawkey most certainly would have got 181 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 3: a picky, but I think Bolger moved very debtly and 182 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 3: decided that he wanted to do it. There was another 183 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 3: story at that at the inauguration that we went to 184 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 3: later that we were at a We shouldn't have been there, 185 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: but they thought that we were part of the official delegation. 186 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 3: And we got into the lunch and Hillary Clinton was 187 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: there and she was filling in for the president he 188 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 3: couldn't make it. And Bulger was there, of course, and 189 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: I was standing near Bulger's table, and Bulger beckoned me 190 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 3: over and he had this rather large bottle. It was 191 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: a litter and a half of Niteberg Cabinet savignon which 192 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 3: was being served at the dinner, and it had the 193 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 3: presidential crest on the bottle. And I said, where'd you 194 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 3: get that from? 195 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 2: Jim? 196 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 3: And he said, oh, that waiter over there, he said, 197 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 3: would you like a souvenir? So he gave gave Jim 198 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 3: this bottle. So I thought, Bugger that if he can 199 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 3: get it, I can get it as well. So I 200 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 3: went over to the waiter and said, look, was there 201 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: any chance I'm from New Zealand? Can I take a souvenir? 202 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 3: He gave me a bottle. I still have mine. I 203 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 3: think Jim drunk is a long time ago. 204 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: Fortunately, looking at Jim Bulger's legacy, what considered his most 205 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: enduring contributions to New Zealand because it didn't stop after 206 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: he stepped back from being a Prime minister and National 207 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: Party leader. 208 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 3: Hey no, well he became an ambassador after that to Washington. 209 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 3: But I think you know that government will be remembered 210 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: more than anything else for its settlement treaty process, because 211 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: you know, one would think that Labor would be the 212 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 3: party that would settle, but it was really that National 213 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 3: Government with Doug Graham that set about settling these grievances. 214 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 3: And interestingly he pulled the rug from beneath the unions 215 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: in the time that he was in office, introducing the 216 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 3: Employment Contracts Act, and that's sort of sideline unions to 217 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 3: a large extent, and it was very controversial. But then 218 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: lo and behold. A number of years later he fell 219 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 3: out with a lot of his National Party colleagues because 220 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 3: he chaired the committee that saw the free the Countment 221 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: at Fair Pay, the Fair Pay agreements which brought the 222 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 3: unions back full force into play and welcome by the 223 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 3: ardun government. And he also became chair of Kiwi Rail 224 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 3: under I think it was Helen Clark that he was 225 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 3: offered that job. So there were plenty of jobs that 226 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 3: came Jim Bolger's way post politics. 227 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: Tell me what happened behind the scenes when Bolger resigned 228 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: as Prime minister. That was in ninety seven. Hey, I 229 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 2: read his press release from the time announcing it, and 230 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 2: he said, having now completed over seven years as Prime Minister, 231 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: nearly twelve years as leader of the National Party and 232 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: fourteen years as minister, changing circumstances make it appropriate for 233 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: me to step down as Prime minister. What were those 234 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: changing circumstances? 235 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 3: It was a knife in his back, a changing circumstance 236 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 3: held by Jenny Shipley and White Creechure, who was became 237 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 3: her deputy. He was a cabinet minister. But I was 238 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: in Europe with Jim Bulger when they did the numbers 239 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: back home here, and we all knew that time was 240 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: running out for Bulger in terms of his popularity within 241 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 3: his own caucus, and as a result they did the 242 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 3: numbers when he was overseas. The hapless Doug Graham was 243 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 3: sent to the airport to give Jim Bulger the news 244 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 3: when he arrived back in the country. Now, I stayed 245 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 3: on in Europe because I had some friends in Germany, 246 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 3: thinking that he won't be rolled this year. It was 247 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 3: late in the year, he'll be rolled the following year. Well, 248 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 3: I was called in the middle of the night in 249 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 3: Germany to say Jim Bulger's gone. It was unbelievable that 250 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 3: even he he resisted right up until the last moment. 251 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 3: And that press statement is a typical political press statement. 252 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 3: I know the man who wrote it very well and 253 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: yet colored over what was really a backstabbing exercise in 254 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: the National Party. And as a result, Jumie Shipley and 255 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 3: Jim Volgon never really saw right Why after that. 256 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: Time, Missus Speaker, I didn't have the privilege of knowing 257 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: Jim well personally, but since becoming Prime Minister, I received 258 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: a few quiet phone calls from him. They were short, 259 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: sincere and thoughtful. He offered encouragement, perspective and advice, advice 260 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: that I took seriously. And I also remember campaigning with 261 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: him in a bar. And why can I and him 262 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: still holding court in a room full of people, sharp 263 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: as ever, fully engage, loving politics and very much enjoying himself. 264 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: He just turned eighty seven. 265 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: What have other politicians said about him? 266 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 3: Well, I've been listening to them, Dan Even and Ruth Richardson, 267 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: you know, put the nice gloss on her sacking. As 268 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 3: I said earlier that she said she had finished the business. Well, 269 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: she really wanted to continue the business, but Bolger decided 270 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 3: otherwise after being pressured by his own cabinet colleagues. So yeah, 271 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 3: he was. The other politicians that I've heard is John Key. 272 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: Well John k never really was in politics when Jim 273 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: Bolger was there, but he had dealings with me. He 274 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 3: said that Jim used to call him from time to 275 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 3: time and not read the Riot Act, but point out 276 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 3: where he could maybe have gone better or perform better. 277 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 3: And I'm sure he's never been backward and forward and 278 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 3: giving his views, including to me when I stepped out 279 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: of line. He was pretty pretty trench into his criticism. 280 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 3: But generally, I think those who remember Jim Bolger remember 281 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 3: him as a really good bloke. I mean, he was a. 282 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: Nice man, farming kind right. 283 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the I think and I really feel today 284 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 3: for his lovely wife, Joan. Joan was I used to 285 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 3: say long suffering, but she loved him implicitly and vice versa. 286 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 3: And Joan. You know, I remember on election campaigns that 287 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 3: Jim would be out on the hustings and he'd be 288 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 3: giving the same speech essentially night after night, and Joan 289 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 3: would be sitting in the front row laughing at the 290 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 3: jokes that she had heard last night. So I thought, 291 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 3: you are long suffering. But she's a remarkable woman. And 292 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 3: of course he had nine children, and I'm really pleased 293 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 3: to hear that the nine children were with him, along 294 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 3: with the wonderful Joan and a number of his eighteen grandchildren. 295 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 2: Wow. How so we mentioned Winston Peters before, obviously, and 296 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: it was a funny that you say that he's always 297 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 2: been the king Maker, right. I remember I was looking 298 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 2: up old newspapers for another story that I was doing 299 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 2: back in the day. I think it was about missing 300 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 2: people of New Zealand, and I was flicking through the 301 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 2: papers any information about these missing people, and there was 302 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 2: Winston on the front page, with a lot more hair, 303 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 2: a lot darker, and across at Kingmaker. I saw that 304 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: Winston Peters said in a statement, everyone with a knowledge 305 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 2: of New Zealand political history from the late eighties to 306 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: early nineties will know that the two of us sometimes 307 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: had our policy differences. Exclamation mark. 308 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 3: Well, no doubt about it. You know that Winston's not 309 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: the easiest of characters, and you know he's pretty Trenchant 310 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 3: in his views, and Bolger knew that Bolger was reluctant 311 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 3: to even have Winston in his cabinet before when Winston 312 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 3: was part of the National Party, but Winston was out 313 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 3: polling Bulger at the time, and I remember saying to 314 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 3: Jim when he became Prime minister, you've got to have 315 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 3: Winston in your cabinet, and he gave him a portfolio 316 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 3: that Winston was never really comfortable with MOLDI affears, so 317 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 3: it was probably a bit of a slap in the 318 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 3: face for Winston. But lot, Winston and Bolger got on 319 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: really well. And indeed, you know Winston with most like 320 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 3: with Helen Clark got on very well as well. So 321 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 3: like or dislike his politics, he's a consummate politician, There's 322 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 3: no doubt about that. 323 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Barry, my pleasure. That's it for 324 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: this episode of The Front Page. You can read more 325 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at ensidherld dot 326 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 2: co dot MZ. The Front Page is produced by Jane 327 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 2: Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. I'm 328 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or 329 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts and tune in on Monday 330 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: for another look behind the headlines.