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Speaker 1: There is a reason CSI fill in the gap. You know, Miami,

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Speaker 1: New York, Vegas is so popular. We love forensics now.

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Speaker 1: Thomas Coyle is in the business. He started in England

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Speaker 1: at Scotland Yard No Less. He was a fingerprint examiner.

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Speaker 1: He arrived here he became one of our most prominent

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Speaker 1: forensic experts in crime scene investigators these days runs his

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Speaker 1: own forensics business as well as teaching students about well

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Speaker 1: what is really a fascinating world's thirty seven year career.

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Speaker 1: It has been brought to life in a book The

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Speaker 1: Dead Speak My Life in Forensics and Thomas Coyle as

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Speaker 1: well as Thomas very good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning mine, thank you for having me on, not

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Speaker 2: at all.

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Speaker 1: Do you still enjoy it as much as you did

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Speaker 1: on day one?

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed it, said the same as on day one,

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Speaker 2: because forensics is changed every day, as we know, so

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Speaker 2: there's always something you do.

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Speaker 1: Evolve in couple of stories, one Cindy Kiro says to you,

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Speaker 1: you should write the book. So I suppose we're grateful

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Speaker 1: to her, and it's one thing to say you should

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Speaker 1: write a book and one thing for you to actually

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Speaker 1: do it. Do you really credit her or are we

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Speaker 1: going to do it anyway?

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Speaker 2: You reckon. No, It's always been at the back of

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Speaker 2: my mind that I've wanted to pour out all of

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Speaker 2: the scenes that are, you know, pour out the examinations

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Speaker 2: I've completed over the years. But I'm not one of these,

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Speaker 2: you know authors per se can just sit down there

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Speaker 2: and write to the heart's content. So I just needed

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Speaker 2: a bit of a push. It was lots of you know,

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Speaker 2: I have lots of clients coming in and I've got

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Speaker 2: cabinets which got old forensic casibit's in and they're just

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Speaker 2: they're really amazed by what's in there. And some of

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Speaker 2: the stories are saying and they keep saying, oh, you

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Speaker 2: must write a book, you must write a book. But

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Speaker 2: the automatical come when I went to collect my award

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Speaker 2: that I said, I'm thinking of writing a book, and

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Speaker 2: she said, you must do I will read it, which

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Speaker 2: is very strange because now it's written. I got an

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Speaker 2: email from the house yesterday to send her a book.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic other story you got into this because and I

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Speaker 1: wonder if this is a time and place thing. There's

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Speaker 1: an ad for a fingerprint expert, you apply and get

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Speaker 1: the job. I mean that surely can't happen anymore, ken it.

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Speaker 2: No, that was a real fake part of it. And

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Speaker 2: that was and I wasn't deep and looking into forensic science,

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Speaker 2: you know, six months before that, I knew very little

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Speaker 2: about forensic science. I do very little about fingerprints. It

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Speaker 2: was just a tragic circumstance that led me away from

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Speaker 2: my career to a complete different pathn this just popped up.

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Speaker 2: It was just like, wow, okay, it's always meant to be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and actually a third story, your description of a pencil,

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Speaker 1: which explained that story. And therefore, and then having explained it,

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Speaker 1: what does that tell us about the job? Does it

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Speaker 1: tell us it's more art than science or science than that?

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Speaker 2: It's a picture of both. Really, you obviously need the

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Speaker 2: science to solve those items, but you need the art

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Speaker 2: to describe the events at hands. So what it was

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Speaker 2: was it was the interview stage of the Scotland Yard

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Speaker 2: and you got five really big, high profile police officers

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Speaker 2: interview and you never been for a real interview before,

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Speaker 2: sat there, eighteen years old, grillingly with questions. I'm shrugging

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Speaker 2: my shoulders, my head's bowed, I'm just about to walk out,

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Speaker 2: and lot of them, says mister Coyle, describe a pencil.

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Speaker 2: And I sat there bemused for a few seconds and

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Speaker 2: I went, okay. So it's a graphite center. It's in

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Speaker 2: cased in woods. You sharpen one end and you use

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Speaker 2: it as a writing implement. As soon as it goes blunt,

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Speaker 2: you can resharpen it, and you carry on with this

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Speaker 2: process until there is no pencil left at all and

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Speaker 2: you buy a new one. And it was that description

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Speaker 2: that was one of the factors that got me the position,

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Speaker 2: because they wanted somebody to describe the scene. They wanted

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Speaker 2: somebody to go in there to do a descriptive part

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Speaker 2: of looking at the scene and describe and what was

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Speaker 2: in there. They could teach you the science. The science

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Speaker 2: they could teach you. It was just the descriptive part

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Speaker 2: of going to into it. Remember when we go to court,

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Speaker 2: it's normally a year and a half afterwards. So it's

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Speaker 2: those descriptive elements that you need to be called from brain.

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Speaker 1: That's just an adherent skill, though, isn't it. I mean

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Speaker 1: very few I think very few people would answer that

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Speaker 1: question the way you answered it, and that would be

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Speaker 1: for you just you were born that way.

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Speaker 2: It was. It's just one of those things where I

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Speaker 2: just can describe things in real detail and yeah, you

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Speaker 2: just have to have an acita And it was just

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Speaker 2: under that pressure pressure moment, are.

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Speaker 1: You detached or do you become detached from the job

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Speaker 1: or does it immerse you in emotion? Given what often

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Speaker 1: you are dealing with.

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Speaker 2: So you learn to confrontmentalize. So you switch off emotionally

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Speaker 2: when you go into a crime scene. Because when I

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Speaker 2: go to crime scenes, you see the worst of the worst.

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Speaker 2: So you see the worst that you what human person

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Speaker 2: can do to another person. So you have to switch

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Speaker 2: off from that. Because we've all got families. Everyone within

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Speaker 2: the police, most of us have got families. Those that

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Speaker 2: are scientists, we've all got families and we have to

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Speaker 2: go home to those families. So we do switch off emotion.

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Speaker 2: If you ever get very very if you bring on

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Speaker 2: emotion in the scene, then you might as well give

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Speaker 2: it up.

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Speaker 1: Has it bothered you throughout your career at all or not?

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Speaker 2: Of course it bothers me. It always bothers me when

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Speaker 2: because each crime scene is different. But it bothers me,

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Speaker 2: Like I say, how has humans? Sometimes you know what

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Speaker 2: one person can do to another?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's changed science wise? I mean, has it changed dramatic?

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Speaker 1: So we're talking thirty seven years, has it changed dramatically?

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Speaker 2: It has changed immensely, which is the fundamentals of science

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Speaker 2: that within crime scenes doesn't change. It's the introduction of

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Speaker 2: new so DNA. For instance, when I was around in

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Speaker 2: the late eighties, we have to get a piece of blood,

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Speaker 2: you know, because of fifty cent seats sent piece just

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Speaker 2: to profile it. So to sorry, so abo it. Nowadays

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Speaker 2: you've got the advancement of forensic science with technology and

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Speaker 2: we can profile. That's done with minute thing. And I

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Speaker 2: do believe you had a guest on earlier that was

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Speaker 2: stating that they can't tell the difference between these two twins.

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Speaker 2: Well look out, they will be able to us already

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Speaker 2: a pipeline because what you're doing when you're doing the

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Speaker 2: DNA profile and you're looking at the markets a specific area,

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Speaker 2: so you know your hyperwavey or your icolo and all that.

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Speaker 2: But now we can gear home the whole DNA profile

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Speaker 2: and we can tell the different traits between identical twins,

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Speaker 2: so they will be able to tell the difference.

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Speaker 1: Interesting, Yeah, there was a case in France. One of

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Speaker 1: the most interesting I mean, I'll ask you this, Tom,

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Speaker 1: get it out of the way. AI. It's the standard

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Speaker 1: AI question for everything these days. What will AI do?

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Speaker 1: Do you think to your field?

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Speaker 2: So AI is good in certain aspects of it. So

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Speaker 2: it's good at detailing the crime scene itself. So you've

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Speaker 2: got this three dimensional camera that goes around and it

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Speaker 2: details everything, so you can get specific points within the

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Speaker 2: crime scene. But it will never take over the experience

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Speaker 2: of an officer going into that crime scene. It will

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Speaker 2: never take over integrity, which is really really important, but

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Speaker 2: it will it will assists, so it'll be, you know,

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Speaker 2: a good valuable tool to assess in the technical terms,

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Speaker 2: but as the actual examination side of it, I think

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Speaker 2: it will always be the human factor that ruled.

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Speaker 1: Given forensics. Is it's either the person or not, it's

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Speaker 1: the fingerprint or not. Do you get better at it

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Speaker 1: or it is what it is?

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Speaker 2: No, you always get better at it. Experience always assists

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Speaker 2: with the with the way that you process the evidence.

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Speaker 2: So you know, you learn to know about fingerprint, you

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Speaker 2: know to learn about forensics, and you know to learn

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Speaker 2: about the specifics within there, so you know the structure

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Speaker 2: of the fingerprinted appliability or the movement of the breach detail.

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Speaker 2: You know, because it you know the way it's placed

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Speaker 2: on certain objects, it can move about, so you get

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Speaker 2: to know over a period of time and experience that

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Speaker 2: that type of movement and position.

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Speaker 1: In one of the most interesting things that I must

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Speaker 1: admit I hadn't thought about it this way before. But forensics,

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Speaker 1: especially in court, is taken as it is what it is.

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Speaker 1: There is no argument about it. But I think there's

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Speaker 1: an interesting point you make about the handling of it

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Speaker 1: whether we should accept forensics as much as we do.

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Speaker 1: In other words, the defense is at a disadvantage because

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Speaker 1: the prosecution, i the police has all the resource. So

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Speaker 1: if that's the case, what should be done?

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Speaker 2: So I think what should be done is there's always

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Speaker 2: two sides of the coin. We have to watch out

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Speaker 2: because you know, people are valible. Mistakes can happen from

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Speaker 2: time to time, and we see that through the know

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Speaker 2: the Brandon Mayfield trial where he was wrongly convicted on

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Speaker 2: an identification and the Shirley McKay from Scotland, and since

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Speaker 2: the Innocence Project that came out in America, there's been

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Speaker 2: two or three wrongful convictions on finger print identification and

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Speaker 2: many many wrongful convictions on DNAs. So you're also you

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Speaker 2: need the other side of the coin. You need an

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Speaker 2: expert to look at the evidence, reassess that evidence and

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Speaker 2: just make sure all the t's across and all the

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Speaker 2: eyes are dotted, and make sure that their process of

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Speaker 2: protocols have been adhered to.

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Speaker 1: The handling is the key, isn't. It's not just the gathering.

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Speaker 1: It's the handling that's the key.

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Speaker 2: It's the handling of the exhibits from the crime scene

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Speaker 2: all the way through to the courtroom. So mistakes can happen.

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Speaker 2: You know, items can be you know, not mixed up,

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Speaker 2: but there can be misplaced and so and the way

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Speaker 2: that they're recorded or the way that they're handled.

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Speaker 1: Glad you Glad you got it all into a book.

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Speaker 2: Tom, Yes, thank you. There's lots of there's lots of

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Speaker 2: information within that book, but I'm just hoping it's honest,

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Speaker 2: it's raw, and it gives a real insight of what

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Speaker 2: forensic science is about crime scenes.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic good to talk to you appreciate it. Very mu

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Speaker 1: to go well with Tom Coil. That did speak my

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Speaker 1: life in forensics. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast

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Speaker 1: Listen Live to news Talks it' B from six am weekdays,

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