1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Cure. I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and this 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: is the Front Page Daily Podcast presented by The New 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Zealand Herald. Auckland is under pressure to make space for 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: two million homes and counselors have little choice in the matter. 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: On September twenty fourth, the city's Policy and Planning Committee 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: will decide whether to press ahead with the existing Plan 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: Change seventy eight, which allows three story housing across most 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: of the city, or back a new plan that concentrates 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: apartment blocks up to fifteen stories around key transport hubs. 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: Both options have sparked heated debate, from fears of flooding 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: and towers overshadowing suburban homes to arguments that the city 12 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: desperately needs more density to tackle the housing crisis. Minister 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: for Arima Reform, Chris Bishop, has made it clear that 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: Auckland must provide for growth while promising locals a stronger 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: voice in how it plays out. So what's really at 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: stake for Auckland is and how much power does the 17 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: council actually have Today? On the front page, New Zealand 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: Herald's senior reporter Simon Wilson joins us to break down 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: the battle over Auckland's housing future. All right, So first off, 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: simon what exactly are these designing changes that have been proposed. 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: At the moment. Auckland Council has a plan in place 22 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: that says that it will create the capacity for two 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: million homes in the city over the coming decades. This 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 2: is a requirement of the previous government and has been 25 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: in place with the existing government until now. The existing government, however, 26 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: told Auckland Council that it could get out of that 27 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 2: option if it produced a new plan that's still allowed 28 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: for two million homes but didn't have the instruction that 29 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: was there in the labor plan. That or pretty much 30 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: all property could be subdivided and pretty much all property, 31 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: even subdivided could go up to three stories. So the 32 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 2: Auckland Council has produced a new draft plan change that 33 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: proposes there will be the capacity for those for all 34 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 2: those homes. It doesn't mean that it'll be built, but 35 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: it's a capacity. But it focuses the development around train stations, 36 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 2: along arterial roads and in town centers, places where there 37 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: is already the infrastructure for denser development, and at the 38 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: same time has recognized because the government has instructed it 39 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: to keep the two minion capacity. It's recognized that it 40 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: has to also allow more density in various other parts 41 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: of the city. So some of the suburbs and some 42 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: parts of some of the suburbs will have a denser 43 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: capacity than is currently the case. 44 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: And so you mentioned the Labor government putting thing a place. 45 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: That's the Plan Changed seventy eight. It's cored this controversial 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: sort of directive. Parts of that have been progressed, but 47 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: why is the government looking to replace that? 48 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 2: So Plan Change seventy eight is based on something called 49 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: the MDRS, the medium Density Residential standards. These were originally 50 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 2: introduced by Labor and National under the Labor government. It 51 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 2: was a coalition deal that they would both support them, 52 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: and the idea there was that it took the very 53 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: contentious housing issue away from partisan politics because both sides 54 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: agreed and recognized that long term development of the city 55 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: was required and we weren't going to get it if 56 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: it became too much a question of party squabbling. So 57 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: that was the plan, but National reneeded on that deal 58 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: before the last election. So the MDRS was what said 59 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: that basically everything can go up to three stories anywhere 60 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of opposition to that. The new 61 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: plan change proposal comes in and under the government saying okay, 62 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: you can, you can be more flexible about it. You 63 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: can do more density where it's a good idea to 64 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,839 Speaker 2: do it, and not have as much density where it's 65 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: more problematic. 66 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, because this talk of like obviously the Hawkland floods 67 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: might be a contributing fact. There's been sort of discussion 68 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: that it's addressing zoning issues and those high risk areas. 69 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: How much of that actually is that. 70 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: Is an important part of it. Under the MDRS and 71 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: Plan Chained seventy eight, the rules were that you couldn't 72 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: downsize the capacity of sections. So where after the Anniversary 73 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: weekend floods and cyclone Gabriel at the beginning of twenty 74 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: twenty three, Auckland Council recognized really clearly that it had 75 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: a whole range of area parts of the city where 76 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: they were at risk of flooding or coastal erosion and 77 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: it was not a good idea to allow more housing 78 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: in those places. In fact, the reverse that to it. Okay, 79 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 2: regulations prevented the dune zoning of those areas. So the 80 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 2: new plan allows for that so they have established a 81 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: whole range of areas, but eighty percent of them are 82 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: on the coast. Auckland has an enormous coastline because it's 83 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: two coastlines, and the rest are flood areas that are 84 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: liable to flood. In the Wairau Valley, some parts of 85 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: Henderson and West Auckland margery places that were it is 86 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 2: simply not appropriate to build. 87 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: Aside from just abstaining from the vote, there are two 88 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: options at place well. 89 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: The proposal in front of council that they will vote 90 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: on next week is to adopt the new plan change. 91 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: The legal language is that they will notify it. It 92 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that it becomes the law. It means that 93 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: it then becomes open to public consultation and there is 94 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: a lengthy process for that. If they don't notify the 95 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: new plan change, then Plan Change seventy eight, the existing one, 96 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: which creates the three x three housing density situation, that 97 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: will remain in place. So it's a yes no on 98 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 2: the new one. But the choice they have counselors are 99 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: facing between those two options, both of which allow the 100 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: capacity of two million homes. 101 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: I thought, like Chris Bishop said that you know, promising 102 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: to allow Aucklanders to have their saying that what is 103 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: that process? 104 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: Okay, So Bishop has announced just this week what the 105 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 2: consultation process will be. It was always assumed there would 106 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: be one, but it was unclear exactly what it would be. 107 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: And so what Bishop has made clear now is that 108 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 2: from early November until just before Christmas there will be 109 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 2: an open public consultation process. Now early November is significant 110 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: because that is the time when the new council, because 111 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: we've got council elections underway and that's the time when 112 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: the new council will take office. They will be in 113 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: charge of that consultation. It won't be something happening in 114 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: the middle of the election campaign and that's a good 115 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: thing for everybody. And then that something like six seven 116 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: week period of public consultation will be followed next year 117 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: by an independent hearings panel being established. These are experts 118 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: in the field and they will hear submissions from They 119 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: will hear the submissions and consider the submissions of everybody 120 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: who wants to front before them who's submitted in that 121 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: public consultation process. At the end of this year, and 122 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: that whole process, the Minister says, will probably taken around 123 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: eighteen months, so there is a very there's a good 124 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: period of time for the public to have their say 125 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: formally as part of the process, and then there is 126 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: a lengthy period of the panel considering that and hearing 127 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: from that and deciding what to recommend. It is a 128 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: standard process, but it is the Minister's now made it 129 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: very clear that they're not going to convent that in 130 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: any way. It will be done properly. 131 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: As someone who's never engaged in a public forum like that, like, 132 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: how do those exactly work, that feedback process and how 133 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: likely is it to actually change it? 134 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: So there will be a whole range of public submissions 135 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: and it will be as simple as you will, I imagine, 136 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: going on previous experience, you'll be able to go onto 137 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: the council website and fill in a form or send 138 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: them a one sentence note saying I object to this 139 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: or I love this. 140 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: Through too. 141 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: There will be groups that get lawyers involved and do 142 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 2: very considered submissions. There will be groups who get planners 143 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: and other experts involved and make their submissions on the 144 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: basis of that, they spend some money, and then the 145 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 2: Independent Hearings Panel their job is to filter all that 146 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: and assess it and the fact that you, as a 147 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: member of the public, have done your It costs me nothing, 148 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: but I have a heartfelt opinion and I want them 149 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: to know about it. Now. They'll recognize that for what 150 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 2: it is and they'll consider that properly. 151 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: Or they're supposed to. 152 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: But they will also, of course have a whole lot 153 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: of that expert submitted material as well to consider, and 154 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: they'll do a balance and the council will report on 155 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: it too. They'll say, we've had this many submissions from 156 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: the public, We've had this many submissions from lobby groups, 157 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: We've had this many submissions from the expert areas. These 158 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: are the opinions that we've had from other parts of 159 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 2: the democratic process, like the local boards and so on. 160 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 2: They'll report on all that, so we'll be able to 161 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: see all that, and they'll probably quantify it, so we'll 162 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 2: know roughly the public opinion was sixty forty this way 163 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: or that way or whatever it is. They will tell. 164 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: Us do we have any indication sort of which way 165 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: counsel or general public are leaning between the options? 166 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: Well, there's no single view. If you go to a 167 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 2: public meeting in mud Eden or remu Era parnell as 168 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: I've been doing. You'll hear some very angry locals. If 169 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: you go out to Mangaee, which I did last weekend, 170 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: you won't find them talking about it at all. They 171 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: Marngoy is a fascinating suburb because it was built after 172 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: the war to house the floods of people migrating to Auckland, 173 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 2: particularly Maori from the north. It was built without with 174 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: hardly any proper sewage and water services. It was very 175 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: very basic that all came to a head and was 176 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: very problematic. Margarray in the last ten to fifteen years 177 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: has been very substantially rebuilt. There are a lot of 178 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 2: apartments and denser housing. They've got good services. They put 179 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: it in underground. It cost money to do it because 180 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 2: they have to do it underground, and it's quite a 181 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: transformed suburb now down there. In this election, they're not 182 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: talking about oh my god, we don't want density. They've 183 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 2: got it. They like it because it's given them warm, dry, 184 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: safe houses to live in and created communities. They're talking 185 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: about other issues, you know, like employment. Those sorts of 186 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 2: things very different depending on where you go. If you 187 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: got to fung A Perrara, was there last weekend. Again 188 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: they're talking about the inability of infrastructure to help with 189 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: development up there. And it's different again from what's happening 190 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: in the central city. 191 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: When you go to those suburbs where they are getting 192 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: really fired up about this. What are the concerns that 193 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: they're raising. 194 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: I think there's two main areas of concern. One of 195 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 2: them is the minister has said that around the railway 196 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: stations that are close to the central city, which he's 197 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: calling the CRL stations, like what used to be Munden 198 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: and now to be known as Mongopho in Kingsland and Morningside, 199 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: those stations will have the capacity to take buildings at 200 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: are fifteen stories tall, and so people are worried about that. 201 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: The second concern is not the fifteen stories, but people 202 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 2: living in leafy suburbs, in nice villas with their neighbors 203 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: and villas are worried that a three or a six 204 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: story apartment block might appear on their street or might 205 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 2: appear right next to them. And so that's it, and 206 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 2: that's actually fundamentally a separate concern. There are two concerns there. 207 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: Most quite possibly many people would say, if we're going 208 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: to have growth in the city, people have to live 209 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 2: somewhere and putting dents living around railway stations, particularly because 210 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,239 Speaker 2: the CURL will transform the railway network and double its capacity, 211 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 2: that's a good place to put them. And that's a 212 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 2: different issue from saying, do we how many apartments do 213 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: we want in those leafy suburbs, those villa suburbs. 214 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 1: If you like, yeah, it's because you know, we're talking 215 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: about quite affluent suburbs, and especially you know people outside 216 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: of Auckland as well might be looking at these Champagne problems. 217 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: Are these legitimate concerns or are these just like sort 218 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: of not in my backyard. 219 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: It depends whether you're in one of the streets concerned. 220 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 2: Shane Henderson, who is a counselor out at Tiatatu in 221 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: the Henderson in the Waitaker re Ward there, he argues 222 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 2: very strongly that Tata two is being completely built out 223 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 2: with apartments because those suburbs closer to town, which have 224 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 2: better services, much better services, particularly transport and water, are 225 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 2: refusing to allow development there. So you could say that's nimbiaism. 226 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: It's easy to say the word nimbiaism. Personally, I think 227 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: that's a good example of it. Not in my backyard. 228 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: It's quite literal. But of course people who don't want 229 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 2: the character of where they live changed to say, it's 230 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: not nimbiaism. It's preserving character and heritage, and there are 231 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 2: values that we need to look after, so you know 232 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: that's where they come from. One of the ironies on 233 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: it is that there was a report that I wrote 234 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: up over the weekend about where the demand in Auckland 235 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: is for apartment living. The two suburbs or the biggest 236 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: demand are Anywhere and Mount Eden, and that is largely 237 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: people who live there now but whose kids have left 238 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: home or they've retired. They want to downsize. They want 239 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: to stay living in their suburb, but they don't want 240 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: to stay living in the big family home anymore. They 241 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: want somewhere smaller that is still good, so they want apartments. 242 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: So while family X living in a really nice house 243 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: and Remuera might not want apartment blocks near them, they're 244 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: neighbors who are retiring do want the apartment block because 245 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: they want to live in it. So that's a inside 246 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: the suburb engine. 247 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: Like we've picked the first five CRL stations, they are 248 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 3: the most important stations. We just really want to get 249 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 3: it into law. That these stations like Kingsland Morning Side 250 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 3: for example, you know, we really should be having dense 251 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 3: apartments around there. They're not going to happen straight away. 252 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 3: It's not like you're gonna wake up tomorrow and find 253 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: a fifteen story building next to Kingsland train station. But 254 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 3: over the next few years you will see more buildings 255 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: like that in these key stations. We've come over the 256 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 3: top with CRL and actually the men supports that. There 257 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 3: people sort of saying, well, I'm sort of forcing them 258 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 3: to do it, and in some senses I am in 259 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 3: the sense that we're legislating for it. But the Mayor 260 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: and I've had a lot of discussions around it, and 261 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 3: he's actually on the press release we issued yesterday around it. 262 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of support from Mayor Brown and 263 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: many councilors and awkward for it. 264 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: In terms of the ones around the Transport hubse we 265 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: talked about the fifteen story potentially apartment blocks. Chris Bishop 266 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: mentioned that, you know, the head calls them the CRL 267 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: sort of things. You know, that's potentially opening soon hopefully, 268 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: but is that infrastructure, the transport infrastructure going to be 269 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: able to support that many more people living around those hubs. 270 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: Yes, it is one of the things that people say 271 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 2: in those suburbs where they don't want the density to happen, 272 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: is that infrastructure should happen first. If they don't want 273 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: the density to happen, they probably don't want it at all, 274 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: so they probably don't want the infrastructure either. But actually 275 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: it doesn't work like that. Under the old Auckland Unitary 276 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 2: Plan passed in twenty sixteen, they said in thirty fifty 277 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: years time, we're going to have the capacity to do 278 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: this much housing. They didn't have all the infrastructure in place, 279 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: they just knew that over those decades it would be developed. 280 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 2: And that is what's happened, certainly with the CRL and 281 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: with wastewater also in central Auckland. So the CRL is 282 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: one of the two really big projects that they've been building, 283 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,479 Speaker 2: and the other one is something called the Central Interceptor, 284 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: which is a big wastewater pipe that runs right through 285 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: the Isthmus and takes the waste out to Mungery where 286 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: the big plants are. And that will revolutionize the capacity 287 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: of Isthmus Auckland to manage wastewater, particularly when they're a store. 288 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: It should mean that there is no fecal contamination on 289 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: the beaches any longer. That's a major change. Maline is 290 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: one of the suburbs that will directly benefit from that. 291 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 2: So that infrastructure is there, but in places where it 292 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: more is needed. Partell is a good example. Parnell pipes 293 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 2: have burst recently, quite famously. There is a plan. Water 294 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: Care has a major plan for the whole city in 295 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: fact of when it's going to build the new infrastructure, 296 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: and it's all staged according to what they understand the 297 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 2: demand to be. So that's underway. It's not like the 298 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: council's doing nothing. 299 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: It's funny, like we're talking about all these different suburbs 300 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: and like it seems that you look at the maps 301 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: of the proposed changes and it's like they've just circled 302 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: an entire suburb. Gone, Yeah, the apartments can go here, 303 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: the three stories can go here, how much like Nuance 304 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: is normally Yeah, something like that. 305 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: So you are right. The government put the council on 306 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: a very strict timetable to get those new maps done. 307 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 2: And some of them are AI generated and there are 308 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 2: mistakes of them. There are places in those plans where 309 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: you go that's clearly the map makers or AI whoever 310 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: it was or whatever it was, assumed that was a 311 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: bigger wider road than it is. You're just not going 312 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: to be able to carry sustain that many people living 313 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: on it. So those things will change the consultation that 314 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 2: we will see next week when the Council comes back 315 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: to decide on the new plan change, there will be 316 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: revisions to those maps, but there'll be more. The notification 317 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: period is one of the reasons for it is it 318 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: allows everybody to say you've got it wrong here, and 319 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: for the Council to have a really good, careful look 320 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: at that and to modify the plans accordingly. So there 321 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: will be changes that Meghan Tyler, who's the Council's Chief 322 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: Planning officer, she says, you know, that's just the normal process. 323 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 2: Of course, we'll do it because that's what we always 324 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 2: do when we have plan changes. So we can expect 325 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 2: that happening as well. 326 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: So with these maps, though I've read about there are 327 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: overlays which then override what's been that's right. 328 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: One of the examples of an overlay is flood risk, 329 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: which you might say this suburb is going to be 330 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: zoned for, or this part of the suburb is going 331 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: to be zoned for six story apartments because it's got 332 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 2: an arteria road running through it. But actually in that 333 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: part of it it's prone to flooding there, so there'll 334 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 2: be an overlay that protects that from development, and that 335 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: is what's called a special character overlay. Another kind of 336 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: special character overlay, which is much more valued by many people, 337 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: is where the housing is judged to have a particular 338 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 2: historic value. I suppose it might not be a historic 339 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 2: it be it might be a subdivision of extremely exciting 340 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: architecturally designed new places that want that are going to 341 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 2: be preserved, But actually that's not how it works in reality. Villas, 342 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 2: bungalows and other historic places where there's a concentration of 343 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: historic housing that gets an overlay on it. And the 344 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 2: best example in Auckland is Devenport. Devenport, apart from navy buildings, 345 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 2: has no buildings of any height at all. There's an 346 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 2: overlay over there. No one's been allowed to build anything, 347 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 2: so it's just the old houses. 348 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: And how do these overlays come into it? 349 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 2: So what that means is if you think it a 350 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: think of a place like the Mungofold station or the 351 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 2: Kingston Railway station, there are places near those stations that 352 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: are within the walkable areas which have a concentration of 353 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: historic housing, and so there's a ring on the map 354 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: if you like that says okay, in those areas, you're 355 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: not going to have the density requirements that places outside 356 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 2: that ring will be subjected to. There are fewer special 357 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: Character areas is preserving historic housing in the new plan 358 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: change than there were in Plan Change seventy eight. I 359 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 2: think it's something like fifteen hundred fewer homes. Therefore, there 360 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 2: is concern that the city could lose a number of 361 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: those historic homes. When I say historic, I live in 362 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: one of them. Now. I live in a special Character 363 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: area where actually in our street almost all the houses 364 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: are workers cottages. They were built in the nineteenth century. 365 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: They're very simple, but over the years people have put 366 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 2: false or new verandas on them in the colonial style. 367 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: My house had the previous owners to us did that. 368 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: It looks very pretty, but it's fake, as the verandas 369 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: on most of my neighbours' houses. They are fake too. 370 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: But the council went down that street and went this 371 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: is lovely and called it a special character So that 372 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: limits the development on our street, which is I think 373 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: kind of weird. Which is not to say that genuine 374 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: villa streets, as there are many in Mount Eden and 375 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 2: Pontsybu Graylin, Devenport, et cetera, not to say that they 376 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 2: they are the same, they villa streets of villa streets. 377 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: Having said that, in Mount Eden, you drive around Mount Eden, 378 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 2: you will see a lot of apartment blocks already, which 379 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: happened in the seventies, and a lot of what's called 380 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 2: sausage flats, where because the height limit was in place, 381 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 2: developers built just to one or two stories, and there's 382 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: a whole lot of apartments in a row back from 383 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: the street, and they're called sausage flats in the sense 384 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: that they look like a six pack of sausages there 385 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 2: sitting next to each other, and you won't have any 386 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: green space, a very small exactly, whereas if if that 387 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: had been built as a sex story apartment block, you 388 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 2: could have had a park around it, you know, for 389 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 2: the for the residents. So that's one of the reasons 390 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 2: why people are saying, actually, sausage flats is not a 391 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: good way to develop us up. The other factor that 392 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 2: is significant in this is what's called walkable catchments. So 393 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 2: around the city center Auckland City Center there is a 394 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: twelve hundred meter walkable catchment. Effectively, they've said if you 395 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: can walk, if it's fifteen minute walk from downtown, then 396 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 2: you can build densely in that area. And for the 397 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: railway stations it's an eight hundred meta radius for a 398 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: ten minute walk. It's not an absolute radius, it's not 399 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 2: just a circle. They looked at the geography, they looked 400 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 2: at the things like where the railway lines are. You 401 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: can't just walk across a railway line, of course, and 402 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 2: a good example of that is Kingston Railway station, where 403 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 2: if it was just a circle, the walkable catchment would 404 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: include Great North Road on the other side of the motorway. 405 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: On the west side of the motorway, it doesn't because 406 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: that's a big dip and it's a longer walk. So 407 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: the walkable catchmentsps on the railway station side of the motorway. 408 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: So they did take account of all that. But in 409 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: those walkable catchments it will be possible to build more 410 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 2: densely because those are the places where they want people 411 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: to live close to the train station. Unless there's a 412 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 2: special character over it's complicated. 413 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: Finally, I just want to circle back to something at 414 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: the start. Might be sound quite surprising to hear this 415 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: number of two million homes, but that's not actually like 416 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: a promise of we're going to build two million homes. 417 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 2: That's correct, and it's not too many more either, as 418 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: many people have been saying. I find one of the 419 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: ways that's quite useful to look at it is to think, 420 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: if the council knows that we're going to build, let's 421 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: say we're going to build twenty thousand new homes a year. 422 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 2: In fact, they've never got to that. They've got to eighteen, 423 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 2: and the peak year, which is twenty twenty three, slipped 424 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: back a bit now. I think it's fourteen at the moment. 425 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 2: But let's say twenty. Let's say the economy picks up, 426 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: growth occurs, and they're doing twenty. That will mean over 427 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: thirty years there's something like six hundred thousand new homes, 428 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: not the two million. But if they only zoned for 429 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: six hundred thousand new homes over the next thirty years, 430 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: that would mean that every homeowner, every property owner, whether 431 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: you're a developer or just living in your own home, 432 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: would be required to build to the maximum the zoning 433 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 2: allows on that section. We would tell you own your section, 434 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: but it's zoned for three stories, so you've got to 435 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: build three stories. You know. We would tell a developer, sorry, 436 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 2: you can't put three story townhouses there. We want you 437 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 2: to build a six story apartment block there. And the 438 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 2: developer would say, it's my land. I can do this 439 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 2: the way I want to because it's my land. And 440 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: they might have a very good reason for not putting 441 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: six stories in because that's more expensive. You've got to 442 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 2: build a stronger building, you've got to put in lifts, 443 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 2: you've got to put in fire sprinklers and other things. 444 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 2: It's a more expensive proposition. Some developers don't have the 445 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: cash flow or don't want to take the risk to 446 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: do that. We don't live in a country where people 447 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: can be told what to do with their property in 448 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: that way. So that's why there's a much bigger capacity 449 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: than we're going to need, so that choices exist for 450 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: property owners. And it also indicates that over time, although 451 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 2: there will be more density, it absolutely does not mean 452 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: there will be density everywhere. 453 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining. I shan't keep 454 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: you any longer. Yeah, I know, You're going to have 455 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: a very busy week next week dealing. 456 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 2: With this great questions. 457 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for joining us. That's it for 458 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: this episode of the Front Page. You can read more 459 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at inzidherld dot 460 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: co dot z. The Front Page is produced by Jane Ye. 461 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio 462 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 463 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: for another look behind the headlines.