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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talks B. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the Now the Leyton

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Speaker 1: Smith podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast three hundred and twenty for March eighteen,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty six. Patrick Basham, director of the Democracy Institute

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Speaker 2: in Washington, DC, has guested many times since he first

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Speaker 2: visited New Zealand and appeared on the radio program in

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Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. More recently, his organization has conducted surveys for

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Speaker 2: the London Daily Express, the results of which have been

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Speaker 2: very accurate. They're mostly political. The latest was on the

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Speaker 2: Iran War and indicate less support from the American public

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Speaker 2: than President Trump would appreciate. This lengthy discussion on the

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Speaker 2: era war was I have to say, fascinating. Whether you're

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Speaker 2: a Trump supporter or a critic, there is something in

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Speaker 2: it for everybody, and I'll be very interested in your feedback.

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Speaker 2: But first, yesterday I received a text. It was sent

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Speaker 2: to me ten minutes after the official announcement was made.

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Speaker 2: New Zealand formally rejects WHO Pandemic Treaty. I texted back

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Speaker 2: to my advisor and I said wow, And I got

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Speaker 2: an immediate response that said big wow, and both of

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Speaker 2: us were very happy. So were a lot or so

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Speaker 2: are a lot of other people. Of course. So today,

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Speaker 2: the eighteenth of March, The Epic Times writes New Zealand

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Speaker 2: has formally rejected amendments to the International Health Regulations the IHR,

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Speaker 2: which lay out how the World Health Organization the WHO

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Speaker 2: member countries will handle future pandemics. New Zealand's Ministry of

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Speaker 2: Health described the IHR as the principal international legal framework

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Speaker 2: for preventing and controlling the spread of disease between countries.

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Speaker 2: The Foreign Minister Winston Peters announced the decision on X

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Speaker 2: on March seventeen, saying his party has always said that

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Speaker 2: any decisions about the health of Kiwis should be made

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Speaker 2: from Wellington, not Geneva. Quote. We have fought on your

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Speaker 2: behalf for these IHR amendments to be fully rejected. We

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Speaker 2: made a promise to put the national interests of New

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Speaker 2: Zealanders first, to maintain our sovereign decision making, and to

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Speaker 2: push back on globalist bureaucrats, and we have kept that promise.

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Speaker 2: Peter said New Zealand's Permanent Mission to the UN had

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Speaker 2: informed the who's Director General on the decision. Now, for

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Speaker 2: those who are unfamiliar with it, the who's new amendments

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Speaker 2: were passed in June of twenty four, but we're not

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Speaker 2: binding on member countries, giving those who disagreed the option

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Speaker 2: of opting out without leaving the organization. At the time

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Speaker 2: the amendments were passed, the Director General, doctor ted Ros Gavrisis,

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Speaker 2: said the decision demonstrated a common desire by member states

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Speaker 2: to protect their own people and the worlds from the

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Speaker 2: shared risk of public health emergencies and future pandemics, built

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Speaker 2: on commitment to equity and understanding that health threats do

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Speaker 2: not recognize national borders and that preparedness is a collective endeavor. Now.

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Speaker 2: That sixty two page document introduced a definition of a

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Speaker 2: pandemic emergency, which would trigger obligations for international collaboration. Countries

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Speaker 2: that agreed to the amendments would have to report potential

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Speaker 2: public health emergencies within twenty four hours of becoming aware,

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Speaker 2: to respond to WHO requests for a similar timeframe, and

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Speaker 2: to consult WHO on appropriate health measures for aventants. That

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Speaker 2: do not require notification but may still pose a risk.

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Speaker 2: It also empowers who's Director General to declare emergencies, including pandemics,

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Speaker 2: which then obliges countries to implement prompt and effective public

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Speaker 2: health responses, including measures such as isolation, quarantine, vaccination, and treatment,

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Speaker 2: and so it goes on. Several of the clauses impose

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Speaker 2: compulsory obligations on states, including the establishment of a national

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Speaker 2: IHR Authority, which would coordinate the implementation regulations and if necessary,

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Speaker 2: by adjusting their domestic legislative and or administrative arrangements. Governments

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Speaker 2: were also obligated to develop response plans and would receive

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Speaker 2: technical guidance from the WHO. You can read into that

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Speaker 2: whatever you want, but it ultimately, for instance, would receive

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Speaker 2: technical guidance would be more like bullying. Now you'll be

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Speaker 2: interested to know that there is a There's not entire

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Speaker 2: agreement about this. Response to New Zealand's announcement, groups such

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Speaker 2: as Voice for Freedom and New Zealand Doctors Speaking Out

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Speaker 2: with Science were supportive of Peter's announcement. Nz DOS is

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Speaker 2: an association of medical professionals challenging the safety of COVID

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Speaker 2: nineteen vaccines. Yet Helen Batusius Harris, Associate professor at the

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Speaker 2: University of Auckland and co director at the Global Vaccine

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Speaker 2: Data Network, said that while Peters was correct to emphasize

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Speaker 2: national sovereignty and transparency in treaty commitments, the suggestion that

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Speaker 2: the WHO Agreement threatens that sovereignty is inconsistent with the

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Speaker 2: actual text. He said, If anything, the treaty goes out

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Speaker 2: of its way to reaffirm state control over public health decisions.

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Speaker 2: The WH Pandemic Agreement is like a global fire alarm

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Speaker 2: system that shared hoses, ladders and escape plans, so no

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Speaker 2: country is left to battle the blaze alone. She said.

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Speaker 2: Health Minister Simeon Brown has not commented on the measure,

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Speaker 2: and the Prime Minister Christopher Luxeen is a way overseas.

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Speaker 2: Of course. The bottom line is that those with experience

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Speaker 2: and hindsight are aware of the pressures that can be

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Speaker 2: brought to bear on individuals and countries at particular moments

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Speaker 2: and time. And I congratulate Winston Peters and New Zealand first.

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Speaker 2: And it goes to show that even politicians can learn

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Speaker 2: things about behavior. And while many will say that it

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Speaker 2: was Winston's fault that we had the worst government we've

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Speaker 2: ever had. At least his moves to rectify that mistake

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Speaker 2: have become obvious. Now at the end of the podcast,

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Speaker 2: there is going to be some interesting commentary too on

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Speaker 2: the Iron War that you would not have heard anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: But after a short break, Patrick Basham. Buccolan is a

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Speaker 2: natural oral vaccine in a tablet form called bacterial nicate.

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Speaker 2: It'll boost your natural protection against bacterial infections in your

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Speaker 2: chest and throat. A three day course of seven Buckland

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Speaker 2: tablets will help your body build up to three months

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Speaker 2: of immunity against bugs which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So

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Speaker 2: who can take buccolan well, the whole family From two

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Speaker 2: years of age and upwards. A course of buckelan tablets

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Speaker 2: offers cost effective and safe protection from colds and chills.

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Speaker 2: Protection becomes effective a few days after you take buccolan

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Speaker 2: and lasts for up to three months following the three

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Speaker 2: day course. Buccolan can be taken throughout the cold season,

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Speaker 2: over winter, or all the year round. And remember, Buckelan

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Speaker 2: is not intended as an alternative to influenza vaccination, but

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Speaker 2: may be used along with the flu vaccination for added

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Speaker 2: protection and keep in mind that millions of doses have

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Speaker 2: been taken by Kiwi's for over fifty years. Only available

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Speaker 2: from your pharmacist. Always read the label and users directed

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Speaker 2: and see your doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker or clumb.

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Speaker 3: Layton Smith.

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Speaker 2: In June of last year, when I interviewed Patrick Masham,

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Speaker 2: I got some considerable feedback. Well that's not unusual. But

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Speaker 2: there's one short note that I got from Paul who

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Speaker 2: wrote the following the most coherent and valid discussion of

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Speaker 2: the Trump presidency, the Trump administration's domestic and foreign policy, etc.

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Speaker 2: Which leads to the obvious conclusion of yep, he's fixing America.

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Speaker 2: Brilliant podcast. Now, I think that summarized the feeling that

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Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of people contributed. But that

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Speaker 2: was the shortest and easiest one for me to deliver,

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Speaker 2: So with that in mind, the director of the Democracy

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Speaker 2: Institute in Washington, d C. It is once again a

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Speaker 2: great pleasure to welcome you to the Lakensworth Podcast and

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Speaker 2: you are always appreciated.

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Speaker 4: Thank you late, and I always appreciate the invitation, always

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Speaker 4: look forward to an opportunity to speak with you and

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Speaker 4: indirectly with your fine audience.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, I was going through some new articles this morning

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Speaker 2: as they arrived, and I saw a headline that doesn't

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Speaker 2: have any detail to it because it got closed off.

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Speaker 2: It was a payers only, but he was the headline

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Speaker 2: every week in twenty twenty six is felt like a year.

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Speaker 2: Top Goldman macro Trader ruminates on everything, everywhere, all at once,

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Speaker 2: and so far there's no letting up and nowhere to hide.

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Speaker 2: How does that describe the scenario that you're confronted with

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Speaker 2: every day in Washington.

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Speaker 3: Oh, pretty well.

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Speaker 4: I mean the old saying about sometimes I think happens

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Speaker 4: for a decade, and then a decade happens in a week.

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Speaker 4: In terms of events and important things, it's very much

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Speaker 4: that way. It's felt that way really ever since Trump

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Speaker 4: was reinaugurated in January of last year. Things that domestically

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Speaker 4: and on the foreign front, you know, just seem to

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Speaker 4: continue to gain momentum in whichever direction. I think everybody,

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Speaker 4: whatever their political views, whatever their alliances or sympathies, feel

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Speaker 4: that a lot is happening and it's not apparently going

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Speaker 4: to stop. More of the same, And of course events

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Speaker 4: of the last fortnight or so have just reinvested.

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Speaker 2: How is how is Trump fairing? Do you think.

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Speaker 4: You're talking politically in terms of how he's faring across

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Speaker 4: the country? Ye, specifically, yeah, not great. It's I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's always important. It was often useful at least to

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Speaker 4: step back and say, okay, however he's doing, how is

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Speaker 4: he doing visa VI you know, your standard president or

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Speaker 4: at least his predecessors. And if you do that and

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Speaker 4: you take the average of all of the published opinion polls,

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Speaker 4: you will see that Trump has an approval rating there's

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Speaker 4: a little bit better than Obama or Biden or George W.

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Speaker 4: Bush had at this same point in their second term.

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Speaker 4: So you have to say, well, that's not too bad,

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Speaker 4: and it's not too bad.

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Speaker 3: It's also just not too good.

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Speaker 4: And it also just looking at it like that ignores

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Speaker 4: the fact that Trump was doing far better last year

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Speaker 4: than he's been doing this year. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: most presidents there's something of a honeymoon period. He didn't

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Speaker 4: get that.

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Speaker 3: In his first term, but he did get in his second.

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Speaker 4: They really hit the ground running with all kinds of

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Speaker 4: policy directives and instructions and initiative that really really followed

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Speaker 4: on from their campaign explicit campaign promises in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 4: and the public his his voters responded to it, but

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Speaker 4: also there were others who hadn't voted for him who

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Speaker 4: started to take a second look at him, and the

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Speaker 4: poll our polling and other polling tended to reflect that.

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Speaker 4: But over the last several months, for a variety of reasons,

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Speaker 4: much of it prior to the Iran War kicking off

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Speaker 4: a couple of weeks ago, Trump's numbers have dipped. That

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Speaker 4: dipped in our polls, that dipped in I think pretty

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Speaker 4: much everybody's polls, to varying degrees. So he's gone from

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Speaker 4: being a comparatively popular second term president to sort of

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Speaker 4: average level of popularity for a second term president, at

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Speaker 4: least in terms of his most recent for this century's

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Speaker 4: presidents that we have the data on.

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Speaker 3: So it's, you know, it's it a glass half empty

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Speaker 3: or glass half full. I think for.

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Speaker 4: Most, if not all, of those who didn't vote for him,

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Speaker 4: especially those who didn't vote for him three times, they

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Speaker 4: can't believe that forty forty five percent of the country

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Speaker 4: thinks he's doing a good job. But for those who

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Speaker 4: did vote for him, I'd say about half two thirds

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Speaker 4: think that he's doing a better job than he's given

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Speaker 4: credit for, whereas about a third think he's actually quite

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Speaker 4: fortunate to be where he is in the in the

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Speaker 4: polling because he has, in particularly this year, the last

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Speaker 4: well last several months, I would say, late twenty five

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Speaker 4: into twenty twenty six, he has disappointed them sufficiently and

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Speaker 4: continues to do so that they they they think he's

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Speaker 4: actually sort of getting away with it a little bit

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Speaker 4: more than they would actually like to see.

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Speaker 2: So is this born out of shall we say, political

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Speaker 2: beliefs on those individuals' paths, or is it born out

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Speaker 2: of confusion?

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Speaker 3: It's well, I think it's it's born out of a

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Speaker 3: lot of things.

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Speaker 4: I mean to simplify it, not because your audience needs

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Speaker 4: to be simplified, but because it's my brain can deal

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Speaker 4: with this in simplistic terms. I think there's at least

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Speaker 4: three or four primary reasons for this. I mean, one

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Speaker 4: is this you touch on there late in your question,

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Speaker 4: is that you know, America remains very divided, and the

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Speaker 4: divisions are really hard, you know, they're really set in.

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Speaker 4: So it's almost impossible for a for a candidate or

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Speaker 4: a president to be voted for light to proved by

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Speaker 4: sixty percent or more of the country.

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Speaker 3: The sort of things that you know Ronald.

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Speaker 4: Reagan would achieve or you know, that kind of that

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Speaker 4: kind of popularity just doesn't happen. There are just too

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Speaker 4: many people who are never going to give the other

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Speaker 4: side a look in, at least not for the foreseeable future.

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Speaker 4: Just so so you've got that, and that is always

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Speaker 4: puts a lid on it anybody's presidency, but it does

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Speaker 4: on Trumps for sure. Especially is because you know, he

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Speaker 4: continues to receive the most negative, terrible media coverage of

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Speaker 4: any president anyone can remember, and he's always had to

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Speaker 4: battle against that, and that has always limited his appeal

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Speaker 4: for a variety of reasons, some of which are to

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Speaker 4: his credit and others are others to other credit or

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Speaker 4: sort of cultural political economic trends. He's been able to

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Speaker 4: get around that, rise above that obviously at least twice

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Speaker 4: out of three times, if not all three, depending on

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Speaker 4: how you like to count the twenty twenty election. But

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Speaker 4: it's also about what he has and hasn't done, and

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Speaker 4: within that, parenthetically, what he's perceived to have done or

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Speaker 4: not done. So you have, you know, on the folks

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Speaker 4: who are never going to give him a chance, never

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Speaker 4: going to give him a second look or third look.

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Speaker 4: You know, they either think he hasn't done anything, or

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Speaker 4: he's done a lot of things that are terrible. So

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Speaker 4: we sort of you have to put those aside. You

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Speaker 4: can't get anywhere there. What he what he has done,

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Speaker 4: unquestionably is achieved some of his campaign promises, particularly on immigration,

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Speaker 4: securing the southern border. That's that those sort of core

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Speaker 4: issue in terms of why people supported him.

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Speaker 2: It's almost that's that's almost ancient history now, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's this, this is the thing.

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Speaker 4: He was so successful so quickly that it's it's less

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Speaker 4: of an issue than it was. However, the caveat, and

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Speaker 4: it's an important caveat politically electorally, is that while the

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Speaker 4: southern border was secured almost overnight, the deportation issue is

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Speaker 4: still still humming along because the administration has made efforts

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Speaker 4: to deport and they have deported arguably a million to

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Speaker 4: two million people, but they don't seem to be particularly

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Speaker 4: enthusiastic about carrying on until they you know, capture and

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Speaker 4: capture and release on the other side of the border.

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Speaker 4: The remaining fifteen to twenty million which is worrying a

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Speaker 4: lot of his voters. Now one of there's a couple

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Speaker 4: of million self deportees who have sort of saw the

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Speaker 4: writing on the wall and have high tailed it, and

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Speaker 4: probably war will do so. So it's even on the

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Speaker 4: issue that you would think on paper would be the

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Speaker 4: one that he is strongest with those who voted for him,

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Speaker 4: there's a there are caveats there. They're not sure whether

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Speaker 4: he thinks he's sort of done enough and it's not

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Speaker 4: worth the fight that it would take for the rest

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Speaker 4: of his term. And then you see, there was so

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Speaker 4: much of the energy and enthusiasm and all of the

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Speaker 4: initiative that the DOGE work early early last year, so

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Speaker 4: much of that the air went out of those balloons,

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Speaker 4: a large part because of the Republicans on Capitol Hill

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Speaker 4: who wouldn't past the legislation that he wanted and that

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Speaker 4: his voters wanted. Also partly because Trump has decided, it seems,

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Speaker 4: on many of these issues, oh well, I can't get

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Speaker 4: what I want, or I can only get part of

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Speaker 4: what I want, So I guess that's it. You know,

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Speaker 4: we move on. You can argue whether those are good.

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Speaker 4: There's a smart political calculations or not. But the bottom

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Speaker 4: line is those things that his voters wanted haven't happened.

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Speaker 3: And then there hasn't been.

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Speaker 4: Seemingly much effort, if any, to deal with all of

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Speaker 4: the what I would call of the political issues of

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Speaker 4: the previous several years, the persecutions of Trump, or the lawfare,

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Speaker 4: the Russia hoax business, or the mess that COVID was,

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Speaker 4: all of these things that the twenty twenty election, the

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Speaker 4: persecution of his supporters, you know, the most ordinary people

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Speaker 4: in prison for years. All of these things were explicitly

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Speaker 4: told to his voters, his would be voters, that something

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Speaker 4: would be done. And on most of those those fronts,

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Speaker 4: on those files, little apparently has been done, or at

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Speaker 4: least little appears to have reached an obvious conclusion. I mean,

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Speaker 4: there haven't been prosecutions. Let'll anybody go into prison, these

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Speaker 4: sorts of things that his voters thought were given.

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Speaker 3: After all, when they.

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Speaker 4: Try to kill you twice and they try to bankrupt you,

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Speaker 4: they try to put you in prison, and you beat

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Speaker 4: them anyway, so fair and square, you figure the guys,

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Speaker 4: you know, not gonna not going to pull back from

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Speaker 4: the rest of the fight. But there's a perception that

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Speaker 4: either he has or at least the people he has

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Speaker 4: appointed in those roles that would be the obvious ones

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Speaker 4: to go forward with that kind of work haven't, for

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Speaker 4: one reason or another, decided to do so.

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Speaker 3: And so that's that's that's very.

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Speaker 4: Disappointing, to put it, quite euphemistically, for a good chunk

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Speaker 4: of his voters.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, could you could you not reap home to the well,

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Speaker 2: let's isolate them the Supreme Court, for instance, uh, for

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Speaker 2: their their approach to dealing with those issues. And as

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Speaker 2: they climb up the up the scale of courts and

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Speaker 2: get closer and closer, it becomes, shall we say, more

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Speaker 2: obvious that the power of judges in the United States

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Speaker 2: is way over what it should be, and they're getting

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Speaker 2: away with it. And if you embroiler yourself in his thinking,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to put my mind into his him. His

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Speaker 2: thinking might just be that I can't spend time on

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Speaker 2: stirring the pot this way because it's not going anywhere,

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Speaker 2: and it's likely to get beaten in the end anyway

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Speaker 2: by the Supreme Court, and there therefore we're bugging.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 4: I mean, first I would say something specifically on the

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Speaker 4: court problem and then maybe make a large hopefully make

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Speaker 4: something of a larger point. But how that ties into

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Speaker 4: other issues and other calculations of Trump himself. But on

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Speaker 4: the court, there's no question that the Democrats decided that

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty they were able to find enough extra ballots

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Speaker 4: to quote unquote beat Trump twenty four they weren't.

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Speaker 3: So what can they do to stymy him?

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Speaker 4: Well, we use we use the court system, which is

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Speaker 4: full of liberal judges and far more anti Trump Republican

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Speaker 4: judges quote unquote conservative judges than Trump judges as part

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Speaker 4: in part because while Trump was president twenty seventeen to

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty, he appointed a lot of folks who didn't

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Speaker 4: really care for him, but he did what he was

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Speaker 4: advised to do by.

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Speaker 3: People who quote unquote knew better.

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Speaker 4: And as a theme of his presidency in terms of

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Speaker 4: personnel decisions that have come back to haunt him, how

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Speaker 4: are well intentioned he may have been? And so the courts,

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Speaker 4: the judges have taken it upon themselves, cheered on by

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Speaker 4: the Democrats and the media, to stop, halt, push back

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Speaker 4: against as much of Trump's second term agender as possible

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Speaker 4: right and they have been quite successful at doing that.

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Speaker 3: And to be fair, to Trump.

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Speaker 4: You know, he can only deal with that hand that

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Speaker 4: he's dealt in terms of the courts, and they have

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Speaker 4: to you know, go back and redo the legislation or

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Speaker 4: try somewhere else, make a different argument, these kinds of things,

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Speaker 4: and we get the situation recently, fairly recently with the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court throwing out his tariffs, most of.

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Speaker 3: His tariff program.

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Speaker 4: Now, of course, that is this is one of these

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Speaker 4: double edged swords in terms of where I want to

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Speaker 4: fix his blame, because there's no question that the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 4: that the judges who voted that way, you know, looking

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Speaker 4: to give him a black eye. But at the same

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Speaker 4: time he was warned, and without warning your audience by

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Speaker 4: getting into the weeds on this, that the way they

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Speaker 4: went about the tariffs was unnecessarily sort of provocative to

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Speaker 4: the courts in the He could have if he made

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Speaker 4: the effort to get congressional approval prior then this thing

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Speaker 4: would have even if they had been pushed to that level,

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Speaker 4: it wouldn't have survived the Supreme Court left, but he didn't,

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Speaker 4: and there we are. So what he's achieved is less

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Speaker 4: than he would have if the court system, the judiciary

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Speaker 4: in America was more balanced and fair minded, if there

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Speaker 4: was more justice in the judicial system, there's no question

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Speaker 4: about that. But at the same time, he has chosen

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Speaker 4: to pick his fights. Now, you know, if you're if

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Speaker 4: you're a president in the in the electoral landscape, political

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Speaker 4: landscape I've described for your audience, where it's very you know,

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Speaker 4: it's it's either side of fifty percent either way, then

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Speaker 4: you can make an argument, as I'm sure the White

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Speaker 4: House is doing that.

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Speaker 3: We have to.

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Speaker 4: We have so much political capital, so much time, we

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Speaker 4: have to pick our fights. But the fights that they

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Speaker 4: haven't picked are either coincidentally ironically the ones that are

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Speaker 4: nearest and dearest to many of the voters. And so

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Speaker 4: the vote, many of his voters voted not just for

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Speaker 4: reform but for radical change in Washington, right, So they

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Speaker 4: loved it when they started firing government workers.

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Speaker 3: But where are the top level.

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Speaker 4: Government people who who acted like kings for four years

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Speaker 4: and in eight years under Obama? Why do they still

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Speaker 4: have their jobs? That type of thing. So it's you know,

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Speaker 4: it's it's there's something for everyone to get mad about,

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Speaker 4: something for everyone to be happy about. But the bottom

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Speaker 4: line is you have put that all in the blender

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Speaker 4: and what comes out is Trump in this prior to

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Speaker 4: the war, anyway around war, in a position where he

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Speaker 4: is he's not weak politically, but he's not as strong

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Speaker 4: as he was or as he could and should be.

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Speaker 2: Which makes things rather difficult for him and confusing for

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Speaker 2: so many people. I want to turn our attention to

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Speaker 2: something that I talked about in the in the podcast

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Speaker 2: last week, and it was something that not many people

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Speaker 2: know about even now. This was the interview that Micha

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Speaker 2: Levin did on his talk program with Trump's Middle East envoy,

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Speaker 2: Steve Whitcoff. May I ask you have you heard that?

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Speaker 4: I've seen clips of it at the time shortly afterwards,

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Speaker 4: but I can't claim I haven't watched.

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Speaker 3: The whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Now, Steve Witkoff did something for me, and I know

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Speaker 2: it's having the same effect on a hell of a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, not necessarily in this country, but in

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Speaker 2: other places where Witkoff did this interview with Mark Levin

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Speaker 2: and described the meetings that he'd had, specifically the last

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Speaker 2: meeting that he had along with Trump's son in law,

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Speaker 2: because the two of them were a team, and this

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Speaker 2: was with the two representatives from Iran, so they were

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Speaker 2: head to head in the discussion. He described the first

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Speaker 2: comments that were made to them in this last attempt

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Speaker 2: were laying it on the line that the Iranians had

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Speaker 2: enough sixty percent grade to make eleven bombs and they

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Speaker 2: had the right to do it, and they would do it,

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Speaker 2: and they weren't surrendering it, and they would never surrender it.

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Speaker 2: And they lay it straight out on the line. It

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Speaker 2: was obvious that they were not going to participate in

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Speaker 2: any deal. And so the two the two reps for Trump,

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Speaker 2: went back to Washington and told the President what they'd said. Now,

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Speaker 2: he said Whitcof said they had been grilled by Trump

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Speaker 2: looking for the truth, and once it was established that

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Speaker 2: there was not going to be a peace steel, Trump

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Speaker 2: pulled the plug.

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Speaker 3: He certainly did that.

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Speaker 2: Or push the button might be a better waiter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yes.

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Speaker 2: The reason I'm raising this is because to understand why

434
00:27:08,413 --> 00:27:12,333
Speaker 2: he's done it is really the reason why did he

435
00:27:12,453 --> 00:27:14,253
Speaker 2: do it? And why did he do it? Now? It's

436
00:27:14,253 --> 00:27:16,693
Speaker 2: seen more than one headline, well why did he do it? Now?

437
00:27:17,493 --> 00:27:21,213
Speaker 2: The answer is in that interview and it's as plain

438
00:27:21,293 --> 00:27:23,613
Speaker 2: as day. So you're left, you're left with a choice.

439
00:27:23,613 --> 00:27:27,213
Speaker 2: If you're making a personal choice of accepting that Trump

440
00:27:27,373 --> 00:27:30,413
Speaker 2: was right or Trump was wrong, and it's very hard

441
00:27:30,453 --> 00:27:32,813
Speaker 2: to accept that he was wrong. And there is a

442
00:27:32,933 --> 00:27:35,573
Speaker 2: there is another another headline that I'd refer you to,

443
00:27:36,053 --> 00:27:41,053
Speaker 2: Britain can learn from Trump's moral clarity over Iran published

444
00:27:41,053 --> 00:27:45,053
Speaker 2: today in the in the Spectator, and that in itself

445
00:27:45,093 --> 00:27:48,093
Speaker 2: is a very is a very intriguing article. Would you

446
00:27:48,173 --> 00:27:51,613
Speaker 2: say that the use of moral clarity is applicable.

447
00:27:53,693 --> 00:27:54,773
Speaker 3: I wouldn't.

448
00:27:55,733 --> 00:28:01,173
Speaker 4: It's not that one can't support the war on Iran

449
00:28:01,933 --> 00:28:05,613
Speaker 4: on moral grounds or that in the past, you know,

450
00:28:05,653 --> 00:28:09,213
Speaker 4: people haven't made strong cases, you know, with morality is

451
00:28:09,773 --> 00:28:15,733
Speaker 4: central to their perspective. It's that Trump's decision and his

452
00:28:15,893 --> 00:28:20,893
Speaker 4: and other's explanation for the decision has been so all

453
00:28:20,933 --> 00:28:26,613
Speaker 4: over the place that there has been there there's been

454
00:28:26,733 --> 00:28:32,173
Speaker 4: really no attempt to buy the White House administration to

455
00:28:32,693 --> 00:28:36,413
Speaker 4: make the case in those terms right. I mean, what

456
00:28:36,653 --> 00:28:40,213
Speaker 4: you what you have relayed in terms of what is

457
00:28:40,333 --> 00:28:44,253
Speaker 4: known that Kushner and Witkoff told him is one of

458
00:28:44,293 --> 00:28:47,093
Speaker 4: the one of the answers he's given to why did

459
00:28:47,133 --> 00:28:47,573
Speaker 4: you do this?

460
00:28:47,933 --> 00:28:49,613
Speaker 3: Right or partial answer?

461
00:28:49,653 --> 00:28:52,373
Speaker 4: The way do you do this? Maybe why he did it?

462
00:28:52,493 --> 00:28:54,893
Speaker 4: We don't know because the answer keeps changing, both from

463
00:28:54,973 --> 00:28:58,573
Speaker 4: him and from his secretary of state or his press

464
00:28:58,573 --> 00:29:03,213
Speaker 4: secretary or et cetera, et cetera, and so so many

465
00:29:03,253 --> 00:29:09,173
Speaker 4: of the answers have not been couched in moral all.

466
00:29:09,213 --> 00:29:11,573
Speaker 4: None of them have been coached into moral terms. That is,

467
00:29:11,573 --> 00:29:14,693
Speaker 4: I think it's hard, certainly in the moment, to sort

468
00:29:14,493 --> 00:29:18,333
Speaker 4: of make that argument. I mean, this is politically it was.

469
00:29:18,693 --> 00:29:22,253
Speaker 4: It was looking bad for anybody, for him or anyone

470
00:29:22,293 --> 00:29:25,533
Speaker 4: who tempted to go after Iran at the moment, rightly

471
00:29:25,573 --> 00:29:29,053
Speaker 4: or wrongly. That's how Americans felt about it in the

472
00:29:29,333 --> 00:29:35,213
Speaker 4: week to preceding. But that has been really in my view,

473
00:29:35,573 --> 00:29:37,893
Speaker 4: are polling, and not all the polling, but enough of

474
00:29:37,893 --> 00:29:41,533
Speaker 4: the other polling I believe has shown that that hasn't

475
00:29:41,613 --> 00:29:45,373
Speaker 4: changed much, if at all, partly because there was never

476
00:29:45,413 --> 00:29:48,413
Speaker 4: a case made before the war, and there has not

477
00:29:48,573 --> 00:29:52,013
Speaker 4: been a uniform case made since. Because whatever case you make,

478
00:29:52,733 --> 00:29:55,413
Speaker 4: whether it's particularly weak one or particularly strong one, you

479
00:29:55,493 --> 00:29:59,053
Speaker 4: sort of need that to be the one, right. But

480
00:29:59,093 --> 00:30:02,693
Speaker 4: when there are sort of it depends who's counting six, eight, ten,

481
00:30:02,773 --> 00:30:06,533
Speaker 4: twelve different reasons why there are the reason we did this,

482
00:30:06,653 --> 00:30:10,733
Speaker 4: we're doing this. It's different cult to you know, accepting

483
00:30:10,733 --> 00:30:13,293
Speaker 4: that half the country's almost half the country is going

484
00:30:13,333 --> 00:30:17,093
Speaker 4: to oppose him anyway, it's difficult to get anybody who

485
00:30:17,133 --> 00:30:20,653
Speaker 4: is persuadable to think, oh, okay, let me think about

486
00:30:20,653 --> 00:30:22,133
Speaker 4: that for a second, maybe he's got a point there,

487
00:30:23,213 --> 00:30:27,453
Speaker 4: when it's not quite clear, you know, what his point was.

488
00:30:28,813 --> 00:30:32,453
Speaker 4: So it's just been the optics have been politically, the

489
00:30:32,453 --> 00:30:37,213
Speaker 4: optics have been absolutely horrendous, and they've given the impression

490
00:30:37,973 --> 00:30:41,293
Speaker 4: of really just making it up as they went as

491
00:30:41,293 --> 00:30:45,373
Speaker 4: they go, and of not having either militarily or politically,

492
00:30:45,773 --> 00:30:51,533
Speaker 4: having planned this out beforehand. And what I think is

493
00:30:51,573 --> 00:30:56,973
Speaker 4: particularly hurt him, well especially hurt him, is the fact

494
00:30:56,973 --> 00:31:01,693
Speaker 4: that a good slice of his voters can't get beyond

495
00:31:01,733 --> 00:31:04,973
Speaker 4: the fact that this is explicitly what he said repeatedly

496
00:31:05,533 --> 00:31:08,213
Speaker 4: for years, including quite recently, that he would never do.

497
00:31:09,853 --> 00:31:15,173
Speaker 3: Is the fact that it is it is clear that.

498
00:31:16,893 --> 00:31:19,813
Speaker 4: What they thought would happen if they acted with this

499
00:31:20,013 --> 00:31:21,613
Speaker 4: sort of moral clarity.

500
00:31:23,293 --> 00:31:24,173
Speaker 3: Is not what.

501
00:31:24,293 --> 00:31:26,973
Speaker 4: Did happen, and they didn't have they had whatever the whatever,

502
00:31:27,013 --> 00:31:30,373
Speaker 4: the whatever, the utility of their plan A. You would

503
00:31:30,413 --> 00:31:34,053
Speaker 4: presume that at that level you would have just in case,

504
00:31:34,133 --> 00:31:36,093
Speaker 4: a plan B, maybe a C, D E and F

505
00:31:36,653 --> 00:31:42,133
Speaker 4: and seemingly there was no plan B. So it's it's

506
00:31:42,173 --> 00:31:44,533
Speaker 4: been a really, really tough sell and it's hard to

507
00:31:44,573 --> 00:31:47,893
Speaker 4: see how it doesn't continue to be so for as

508
00:31:47,933 --> 00:31:50,133
Speaker 4: long as you know, the US remains.

509
00:31:49,773 --> 00:31:56,093
Speaker 2: Evolved, you're making it difficult for me. I ll experience them.

510
00:31:56,333 --> 00:32:00,293
Speaker 2: I interviewed him once, right at the beginning of COVID.

511
00:32:00,573 --> 00:32:03,053
Speaker 2: He made it in just in time to promote his

512
00:32:03,333 --> 00:32:09,213
Speaker 2: book on marijuana, Anti Marijuana. But I have I have

513
00:32:09,413 --> 00:32:15,853
Speaker 2: his collection of novels, which runs second for me only

514
00:32:15,933 --> 00:32:21,373
Speaker 2: to Daniel Silver in their character and or characters and

515
00:32:21,853 --> 00:32:24,613
Speaker 2: the stories they tell. But that's just that's just by

516
00:32:24,653 --> 00:32:32,013
Speaker 2: the bye. But he's he's written today again, and I

517
00:32:32,093 --> 00:32:34,213
Speaker 2: think if I can insert this now, I think this

518
00:32:34,333 --> 00:32:37,053
Speaker 2: is part of the problem so much that keeps coming out,

519
00:32:37,173 --> 00:32:40,853
Speaker 2: so much that gets fired at the public and at

520
00:32:40,853 --> 00:32:46,453
Speaker 2: Trump for various things, various reasons, various explanations, because there

521
00:32:46,493 --> 00:32:50,613
Speaker 2: are so many people with various opinions and our experience,

522
00:32:50,653 --> 00:32:53,093
Speaker 2: and of course is one of them. But here's what

523
00:32:53,173 --> 00:32:55,853
Speaker 2: he wrote. It's not just about the Strait of Hormuz.

524
00:32:56,333 --> 00:32:58,653
Speaker 2: Here's a slightly more detailed version of a thread that

525
00:32:58,693 --> 00:33:02,213
Speaker 2: I just posted on X What they're not telling you

526
00:33:02,573 --> 00:33:06,853
Speaker 2: because they don't want to scare you. Iran can already

527
00:33:07,013 --> 00:33:11,213
Speaker 2: his emphasis, Iran can already make a nuke with its

528
00:33:11,253 --> 00:33:14,573
Speaker 2: current uranium stock. Depending on its engineering school, this would

529
00:33:14,573 --> 00:33:19,293
Speaker 2: explode either as a subcritical dirty bomb, killing thousands and

530
00:33:19,413 --> 00:33:23,693
Speaker 2: leaving swathes of Televiv and Manhattan uninhabitable for decades, or

531
00:33:23,693 --> 00:33:26,893
Speaker 2: a Hiroshima sized nuke, killing hundreds of thousands and likely

532
00:33:26,973 --> 00:33:30,373
Speaker 2: leading us to retaliate with nuclear strikes that would destroy

533
00:33:30,373 --> 00:33:33,813
Speaker 2: irm the truth, even if you'd rather not hear it

534
00:33:33,853 --> 00:33:36,573
Speaker 2: and I'd rather not write it. If it makes a bomb,

535
00:33:37,173 --> 00:33:40,013
Speaker 2: Iran will not know how big it may be until

536
00:33:40,053 --> 00:33:42,373
Speaker 2: it detonates. And he goes into a bit of detail.

537
00:33:42,653 --> 00:33:47,813
Speaker 2: But he fronts up with a reasonable theory, I think

538
00:33:47,853 --> 00:33:49,893
Speaker 2: a contributory argument.

539
00:33:49,973 --> 00:33:53,813
Speaker 4: You say, well, the problem okay, just if you bear

540
00:33:53,933 --> 00:33:55,413
Speaker 4: with me, if you want to spares with me for

541
00:33:55,453 --> 00:33:58,213
Speaker 4: a moment, just to give a little preface here, So

542
00:33:58,773 --> 00:34:01,773
Speaker 4: in terms of just so everyone is reminded where I'm

543
00:34:01,813 --> 00:34:05,693
Speaker 4: coming from, I mean, I've long always considered, since the

544
00:34:05,733 --> 00:34:08,293
Speaker 4: revolution is something not considered around, to be a bad

545
00:34:08,373 --> 00:34:12,013
Speaker 4: actor in the region and globally sponsored terrorism repressed if

546
00:34:12,013 --> 00:34:14,213
Speaker 4: at home cause as much trouble as they can in

547
00:34:14,253 --> 00:34:16,373
Speaker 4: the region. Would like Israel not to be there if

548
00:34:16,373 --> 00:34:17,813
Speaker 4: they could help, you know, if they could do anything

549
00:34:17,813 --> 00:34:18,333
Speaker 4: about etc.

550
00:34:18,533 --> 00:34:18,733
Speaker 3: Etc.

551
00:34:20,133 --> 00:34:22,053
Speaker 4: No fan of Israel, and I think we've from my

552
00:34:22,093 --> 00:34:24,813
Speaker 4: memory serves me late, and we've spoken at times over

553
00:34:24,893 --> 00:34:28,933
Speaker 4: the months and years where I've been castigating Obama and

554
00:34:28,933 --> 00:34:32,733
Speaker 4: then Biden for their appeasement of Iran and praising Trump

555
00:34:32,933 --> 00:34:35,653
Speaker 4: during his term for standing up to them. So I,

556
00:34:35,893 --> 00:34:37,693
Speaker 4: you know, just to sort of put my chips on

557
00:34:37,693 --> 00:34:39,573
Speaker 4: the table in that regard. And in addition to that,

558
00:34:40,173 --> 00:34:43,613
Speaker 4: the Trump administration overall is a million times better than

559
00:34:43,693 --> 00:34:45,853
Speaker 4: what preceded and what would have happened if Herrot's taken over.

560
00:34:45,893 --> 00:34:47,693
Speaker 4: And I would like Donald Trump to do as well

561
00:34:47,693 --> 00:34:50,653
Speaker 4: as possible and be as popular as possible. But however,

562
00:34:50,933 --> 00:34:55,093
Speaker 4: that said, the truth of the matter is that for

563
00:34:55,293 --> 00:34:58,853
Speaker 4: a couple of decades, there has always been at least

564
00:34:58,933 --> 00:35:02,813
Speaker 4: one very bright informed person or government official or prime

565
00:35:02,853 --> 00:35:06,053
Speaker 4: minister or someone somewhere who has told us that Iran

566
00:35:06,173 --> 00:35:08,693
Speaker 4: is two weeks away from having a bomb. Okay, yeah,

567
00:35:10,013 --> 00:35:14,533
Speaker 4: And last summer the Twelve Day War, as it became

568
00:35:14,613 --> 00:35:19,093
Speaker 4: known at that time, insiders were saying, oh yes, you know, yes,

569
00:35:19,133 --> 00:35:21,973
Speaker 4: we're negotiating, and Trump says, the negotiations are going, well,

570
00:35:22,093 --> 00:35:22,493
Speaker 4: we've got.

571
00:35:22,413 --> 00:35:23,853
Speaker 3: To do something about it. We did. We started doing

572
00:35:23,853 --> 00:35:24,573
Speaker 3: a little negotiations.

573
00:35:24,653 --> 00:35:27,653
Speaker 4: We just started bombing them in a more targeted, sort

574
00:35:27,653 --> 00:35:31,413
Speaker 4: of specific, localized way in terms of their facilities.

575
00:35:31,893 --> 00:35:34,013
Speaker 3: Now that that tough very time.

576
00:35:35,013 --> 00:35:38,213
Speaker 4: The likes of Tulsi Gabbard in charge of national Intelligence,

577
00:35:38,333 --> 00:35:41,093
Speaker 4: the likes of the Israeli government, we're both telling Trump

578
00:35:41,933 --> 00:35:45,613
Speaker 4: that that Tehran is at least a year or two

579
00:35:45,653 --> 00:35:49,293
Speaker 4: away from capability of doing what they we fear they

580
00:35:49,373 --> 00:35:52,813
Speaker 4: might want to do. To say Israel, now, he took

581
00:35:52,853 --> 00:35:55,653
Speaker 4: a preemptive act, did a preemptive measure, and you you know,

582
00:35:55,693 --> 00:35:57,333
Speaker 4: say okay, and he said that was the end of it.

583
00:35:57,373 --> 00:36:00,173
Speaker 4: They're finished with You know that tune has changed. That's

584
00:36:00,173 --> 00:36:02,493
Speaker 4: another thing you see when you say you've got them,

585
00:36:02,533 --> 00:36:05,693
Speaker 4: you did it successful in and out, clean as it were,

586
00:36:06,053 --> 00:36:09,253
Speaker 4: and then several months later it's we got to stop

587
00:36:09,413 --> 00:36:11,013
Speaker 4: hold everything because we've got to go in there and

588
00:36:11,013 --> 00:36:14,693
Speaker 4: bomb the heck out of that country. That also is

589
00:36:14,733 --> 00:36:19,293
Speaker 4: a little tough for people to understand appreciate why why

590
00:36:19,373 --> 00:36:21,013
Speaker 4: we got what I thought we we'd want thought we

591
00:36:21,093 --> 00:36:21,373
Speaker 4: did it.

592
00:36:21,493 --> 00:36:23,053
Speaker 3: We haven't to be able to do it again, Okay.

593
00:36:24,933 --> 00:36:25,653
Speaker 3: And then you have.

594
00:36:25,693 --> 00:36:28,613
Speaker 4: The problem of when they first came out with the

595
00:36:28,613 --> 00:36:31,133
Speaker 4: reasons for doing this, there was stuff about regime change,

596
00:36:31,133 --> 00:36:33,893
Speaker 4: which seems to be central for some people. But Trump

597
00:36:33,933 --> 00:36:36,173
Speaker 4: would say, well, I'm an imminent threat to America, and

598
00:36:36,213 --> 00:36:37,893
Speaker 4: then it was an eminent threat to Israel, and then

599
00:36:37,933 --> 00:36:40,253
Speaker 4: it was an eminent threats to US interests in the

600
00:36:40,293 --> 00:36:44,093
Speaker 4: Middle East. And it turns out right in real time

601
00:36:44,973 --> 00:36:48,213
Speaker 4: that the Pentagon and the CIA, for example, we're both

602
00:36:48,253 --> 00:36:52,773
Speaker 4: telling Trump all along, ten years till these Raelians considered

603
00:36:52,733 --> 00:36:55,773
Speaker 4: the Iranians as another Freudian slip, ten years till the

604
00:36:55,813 --> 00:36:59,173
Speaker 4: Iranians will be able to do anything to us in America,

605
00:36:59,653 --> 00:37:02,053
Speaker 4: and it's several years before they can do anything to Israel.

606
00:37:02,693 --> 00:37:06,653
Speaker 4: And the reason that Trump would say, yeah, they're threatening

607
00:37:06,693 --> 00:37:10,213
Speaker 4: to you know, to bomb ups, Well, yeah, they're saying

608
00:37:10,253 --> 00:37:13,133
Speaker 4: that if we attack them, they'll bomb our bases. But

609
00:37:13,293 --> 00:37:15,373
Speaker 4: it turns out we attacked them and they bombed our basis.

610
00:37:16,413 --> 00:37:20,373
Speaker 4: So it's not a question. I mean, most Americans are

611
00:37:20,493 --> 00:37:24,253
Speaker 4: not don't need persuading that Iran is a bad actor,

612
00:37:24,813 --> 00:37:27,213
Speaker 4: and we wish it was a different governments, and we

613
00:37:27,333 --> 00:37:29,773
Speaker 4: wish that they weren't who they are and they haven't

614
00:37:29,773 --> 00:37:33,853
Speaker 4: behaved the way they have behaved. But that's a million

615
00:37:33,893 --> 00:37:41,573
Speaker 4: miles politically from persuading most people that suddenly everything has

616
00:37:41,653 --> 00:37:44,293
Speaker 4: to be put on hold and we have to risk

617
00:37:44,373 --> 00:37:49,293
Speaker 4: everything economically, politically, domestic in terms of domestically to do this,

618
00:37:50,493 --> 00:37:56,653
Speaker 4: especially in addition when Trump quite explicitly says that, well,

619
00:37:56,693 --> 00:37:59,533
Speaker 4: you know, yeah, it is kind of risky doing this

620
00:37:59,573 --> 00:38:02,533
Speaker 4: sort of thing, but you know, the Israelis want us

621
00:38:02,533 --> 00:38:05,613
Speaker 4: to do it. You know, that's okay. So it doesn't

622
00:38:05,613 --> 00:38:09,453
Speaker 4: compute for most people. Now, maybe you know, historians will

623
00:38:09,453 --> 00:38:11,173
Speaker 4: look back ten her twenty years from now and say

624
00:38:11,213 --> 00:38:13,653
Speaker 4: that it was exactly as Trump said it was, and

625
00:38:13,733 --> 00:38:16,453
Speaker 4: it was all necessary and we haven't had a peep

626
00:38:16,453 --> 00:38:19,733
Speaker 4: out of Iran since. But in real time, which is

627
00:38:19,773 --> 00:38:22,293
Speaker 4: the only context in which most people can try to

628
00:38:22,333 --> 00:38:27,093
Speaker 4: assess this cost benefit wise, it's just it appears to

629
00:38:27,133 --> 00:38:30,533
Speaker 4: be contrary to what Trump says some days, it does

630
00:38:30,573 --> 00:38:32,573
Speaker 4: appear to be not a war of necessity but a

631
00:38:32,573 --> 00:38:35,213
Speaker 4: war of choice. And as a war of choice, then

632
00:38:35,253 --> 00:38:39,053
Speaker 4: everyone then starts thinking, well, should we have chosen chosen

633
00:38:39,053 --> 00:38:43,693
Speaker 4: to go this route? And most people think on balance, well, no,

634
00:38:44,093 --> 00:38:48,773
Speaker 4: especially as it hasn't. It's not as if it's gone well,

635
00:38:49,413 --> 00:38:51,773
Speaker 4: and is there always cost to a war, even a

636
00:38:51,773 --> 00:38:55,493
Speaker 4: successful war. It's gone well, and we don't like the costs.

637
00:38:55,933 --> 00:38:59,693
Speaker 4: It's not gone very well so far. And this doesn't

638
00:38:59,693 --> 00:39:02,613
Speaker 4: look like going any better the further we go. So

639
00:39:03,413 --> 00:39:06,453
Speaker 4: it you know, it just doesn't. It just doesn't play

640
00:39:06,733 --> 00:39:08,773
Speaker 4: doesn't pass the sniff test from people.

641
00:39:09,453 --> 00:39:11,573
Speaker 2: Well, maybe those people should see their doctors.

642
00:39:13,933 --> 00:39:17,493
Speaker 4: That's just not a boy you with the with the

643
00:39:17,773 --> 00:39:19,013
Speaker 4: too much detail.

644
00:39:19,293 --> 00:39:20,853
Speaker 2: Historically, you can't. You can't do that.

645
00:39:22,053 --> 00:39:26,173
Speaker 3: Ah? Is that? Is that a dare very late? Uh?

646
00:39:26,853 --> 00:39:27,053
Speaker 4: Is that?

647
00:39:28,093 --> 00:39:28,173
Speaker 3: For?

648
00:39:28,533 --> 00:39:32,053
Speaker 4: One of the things that was explained to Trump beforehand

649
00:39:32,493 --> 00:39:35,093
Speaker 4: and before other people came in the room and explained

650
00:39:35,293 --> 00:39:36,333
Speaker 4: how things were different.

651
00:39:36,893 --> 00:39:39,213
Speaker 3: One of the things that was explained to him is that.

652
00:39:40,773 --> 00:39:44,573
Speaker 4: Wars go go a very predictable way, with probably the

653
00:39:44,653 --> 00:39:46,853
Speaker 4: exception only of the Second World War, go a very

654
00:39:46,853 --> 00:39:49,693
Speaker 4: predictable way in terms of the American public opinion, right

655
00:39:50,413 --> 00:39:53,493
Speaker 4: whatever the level of support for the war going in,

656
00:39:53,813 --> 00:39:59,653
Speaker 4: and sometimes it's quite high, and it always declines, sometimes

657
00:39:59,693 --> 00:40:02,653
Speaker 4: quite quickly, sometimes gradually, but orways declines as blood and

658
00:40:02,693 --> 00:40:05,333
Speaker 4: treasure you know, start being tallied up.

659
00:40:06,133 --> 00:40:07,613
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's that's number one.

660
00:40:07,773 --> 00:40:11,093
Speaker 4: So whatever you are now, mister president, you're only going

661
00:40:11,173 --> 00:40:12,733
Speaker 4: to get the war's only gonna get less popular.

662
00:40:12,733 --> 00:40:12,853
Speaker 1: Now.

663
00:40:12,893 --> 00:40:16,373
Speaker 4: It's important then to note that despite the polls that

664
00:40:16,493 --> 00:40:19,773
Speaker 4: Trump was relying on, most polls showed that, you know,

665
00:40:19,813 --> 00:40:23,213
Speaker 4: it was two thirds one third against beforehand and at

666
00:40:23,253 --> 00:40:25,893
Speaker 4: the outset, So you're starting out from a weak position.

667
00:40:26,253 --> 00:40:30,773
Speaker 4: Number two, That rally around the flag effect, which can

668
00:40:30,853 --> 00:40:33,213
Speaker 4: be real where people go, oh my goodness, we're at war,

669
00:40:33,293 --> 00:40:36,453
Speaker 4: we must support the president, which some poles say it

670
00:40:36,453 --> 00:40:40,493
Speaker 4: has been a little bit of others don't. That always fades,

671
00:40:40,693 --> 00:40:44,413
Speaker 4: That always fades quite quickly. And thirdly, and this is

672
00:40:44,453 --> 00:40:47,333
Speaker 4: really the most depressing thing if you just in general,

673
00:40:47,373 --> 00:40:50,533
Speaker 4: if you're in favor of at times America intervening militarily

674
00:40:50,573 --> 00:40:53,893
Speaker 4: around the world, is that no matter how just your

675
00:40:53,933 --> 00:40:56,533
Speaker 4: cause might be, no matter how successful the war is

676
00:40:56,573 --> 00:40:59,533
Speaker 4: and how successful it's seen it is perceived to have been,

677
00:41:01,013 --> 00:41:05,053
Speaker 4: it's still you still don't gain politically from it. A

678
00:41:05,133 --> 00:41:08,853
Speaker 4: president can only survive a war, survive foreign policy generally,

679
00:41:09,253 --> 00:41:12,453
Speaker 4: he can't really gain from it only in the most

680
00:41:12,533 --> 00:41:16,853
Speaker 4: short term sense. And so Trump start out with an

681
00:41:16,933 --> 00:41:19,213
Speaker 4: unpopular but what would be you know, if if he

682
00:41:19,333 --> 00:41:21,013
Speaker 4: president does this, what do you think we don't like

683
00:41:21,053 --> 00:41:25,093
Speaker 4: the idea he does it, doesn't explain much about it beforehand,

684
00:41:25,093 --> 00:41:27,893
Speaker 4: can't get his story straight while it's happening, doesn't seem

685
00:41:27,933 --> 00:41:31,413
Speaker 4: to be going that well. None of the evidence is

686
00:41:31,413 --> 00:41:33,693
Speaker 4: that he's He or the war.

687
00:41:33,533 --> 00:41:38,133
Speaker 3: Itself are gaining in popularity, you know, And so you've

688
00:41:38,133 --> 00:41:38,333
Speaker 3: got that.

689
00:41:38,413 --> 00:41:42,253
Speaker 4: You have the situation where this is why so many people,

690
00:41:42,253 --> 00:41:44,613
Speaker 4: not everybody, but so many of the political people in

691
00:41:44,653 --> 00:41:48,693
Speaker 4: the White House are telling him, you know, whatever, whether

692
00:41:48,693 --> 00:41:50,973
Speaker 4: it's right or wrong about what you we have done,

693
00:41:51,493 --> 00:41:54,413
Speaker 4: you need to pull the plug in as fast and

694
00:41:54,453 --> 00:41:58,853
Speaker 4: dignified a way as possible, because you know, domestically, we're

695
00:41:58,853 --> 00:42:00,973
Speaker 4: gonna get we're gonna get crushed, and we don't know

696
00:42:00,973 --> 00:42:03,573
Speaker 4: how long that crushing will go on for right and

697
00:42:03,613 --> 00:42:07,733
Speaker 4: it's so rightly or wrongly, this is not This has

698
00:42:07,733 --> 00:42:11,293
Speaker 4: been a very very bad move politically for Trump and

699
00:42:11,573 --> 00:42:13,733
Speaker 4: most frustratingly for his supporters.

700
00:42:14,013 --> 00:42:15,013
Speaker 3: It's self inflicted.

701
00:42:15,453 --> 00:42:17,973
Speaker 4: Now, I'm sure he had the best of intentions, but

702
00:42:18,773 --> 00:42:20,533
Speaker 4: that's how it's seen and it will take quite a

703
00:42:20,573 --> 00:42:21,173
Speaker 4: turn around.

704
00:42:21,253 --> 00:42:22,213
Speaker 3: Both in the Middle.

705
00:42:21,973 --> 00:42:25,933
Speaker 4: East, and in terms of people, in terms of public

706
00:42:25,933 --> 00:42:28,013
Speaker 4: opinion for that to change. But as I've been saying,

707
00:42:28,333 --> 00:42:31,173
Speaker 4: there's no historical evidence that even if it goes from

708
00:42:31,253 --> 00:42:33,773
Speaker 4: being a this isn't going so well kind of a

709
00:42:33,813 --> 00:42:35,693
Speaker 4: war to way, oh my goodness, that was ended up

710
00:42:35,693 --> 00:42:38,573
Speaker 4: being a cake walk. Doesn't mean that come November or

711
00:42:38,613 --> 00:42:41,253
Speaker 4: November of twenty twenty eight, then anybody's going to give

712
00:42:41,293 --> 00:42:42,173
Speaker 4: him any credit for that.

713
00:42:42,653 --> 00:42:44,453
Speaker 2: So you're suggesting he's on a loser.

714
00:42:45,893 --> 00:42:49,533
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, no question about it. And I think he knows.

715
00:42:49,613 --> 00:42:51,373
Speaker 4: I think he knows he's not a loser. I mean, see,

716
00:42:52,053 --> 00:42:55,493
Speaker 4: this is somebody who, to his credit and long before

717
00:42:55,533 --> 00:43:02,733
Speaker 4: he was you know, in politics, always argued against regime change, wars, forever, wars,

718
00:43:02,813 --> 00:43:04,413
Speaker 4: endless wars, all the rest of its particularly in the

719
00:43:04,413 --> 00:43:04,973
Speaker 4: Middle East.

720
00:43:05,253 --> 00:43:06,453
Speaker 3: And whether you think that's.

721
00:43:06,333 --> 00:43:09,853
Speaker 4: Correct or not, he had a principled position which he

722
00:43:09,893 --> 00:43:12,733
Speaker 4: stuck to and articulated and enunciated very well.

723
00:43:13,053 --> 00:43:14,773
Speaker 3: He did it all the way through all three of

724
00:43:14,813 --> 00:43:15,573
Speaker 3: his campaigns.

725
00:43:15,973 --> 00:43:20,133
Speaker 4: One of his last conversation with Charlie Kirk was Trump

726
00:43:20,293 --> 00:43:22,813
Speaker 4: promising Charlie Kirk that he would never do what he's

727
00:43:22,813 --> 00:43:25,133
Speaker 4: done because Charlie Kirk in recent times.

728
00:43:25,173 --> 00:43:28,013
Speaker 3: This was his you know, policy terms.

729
00:43:28,133 --> 00:43:31,733
Speaker 4: Charlie was involved, you know, obviously in interested in a

730
00:43:31,773 --> 00:43:35,253
Speaker 4: lot of larger cultural issues, but in terms of policy,

731
00:43:35,773 --> 00:43:37,413
Speaker 4: the thing that mattered most to him is that we

732
00:43:37,453 --> 00:43:40,773
Speaker 4: didn't start a war with Iran because he foresaw what

733
00:43:41,053 --> 00:43:43,453
Speaker 4: many of us do in terms of the negative continent

734
00:43:43,493 --> 00:43:47,413
Speaker 4: and negative ramifications. Trump promised him he wouldn't do it.

735
00:43:48,173 --> 00:43:52,973
Speaker 4: And Trump has is now in a position where he's

736
00:43:53,013 --> 00:43:55,773
Speaker 4: gone against not just what a lot of people told

737
00:43:55,813 --> 00:43:58,773
Speaker 4: him he should should or shouldn't do, but he's gone

738
00:43:58,893 --> 00:44:02,853
Speaker 4: completely one eighty against what he always said. I mean,

739
00:44:02,893 --> 00:44:07,373
Speaker 4: along with being in favor of tariffs, I'm trying to think,

740
00:44:07,533 --> 00:44:09,333
Speaker 4: I'm trying to think of an issue.

741
00:44:08,973 --> 00:44:10,973
Speaker 3: That Trump so long held on to.

742
00:44:11,413 --> 00:44:16,413
Speaker 4: It was a signature issue, and he I think recognizes

743
00:44:16,973 --> 00:44:20,413
Speaker 4: that he has been persuaded kind of at the last minute,

744
00:44:20,973 --> 00:44:24,933
Speaker 4: whether it's wit Coffin, Kushner, whether it's Rubio, whatever the

745
00:44:24,973 --> 00:44:29,613
Speaker 4: specific reason, you know that he was persuaded the last minute,

746
00:44:30,453 --> 00:44:32,933
Speaker 4: and maybe it was you know, the late the last

747
00:44:32,933 --> 00:44:36,933
Speaker 4: phone call he had from bb let Nayu, but that

748
00:44:37,493 --> 00:44:38,773
Speaker 4: he probably.

749
00:44:38,413 --> 00:44:41,453
Speaker 3: Shouldn't have done what he did. But now he's in it.

750
00:44:41,773 --> 00:44:43,733
Speaker 4: He doesn't know how to like most most of us,

751
00:44:44,013 --> 00:44:46,533
Speaker 4: you make a mistake, you realize it fairly quickly, you've

752
00:44:46,533 --> 00:44:49,533
Speaker 4: made a mistake, but often it's too late to change it.

753
00:44:50,173 --> 00:44:52,053
Speaker 4: And so how do you minimize the damage. And what

754
00:44:52,093 --> 00:44:54,653
Speaker 4: he appears to be doing, I don't think it's what

755
00:44:54,693 --> 00:44:55,493
Speaker 4: he wants to do.

756
00:44:55,533 --> 00:44:56,573
Speaker 3: What he appears to be.

757
00:44:57,133 --> 00:45:02,293
Speaker 4: Advised in a sort of military sense, geop strategic sense,

758
00:45:02,693 --> 00:45:04,933
Speaker 4: is to do what most leaders do in these situations

759
00:45:04,973 --> 00:45:08,453
Speaker 4: when it isn't going well, which is double down and

760
00:45:08,533 --> 00:45:10,933
Speaker 4: see whether blowing up more buildings and killing more people

761
00:45:11,373 --> 00:45:14,013
Speaker 4: can have the effect that blowing up half as many

762
00:45:14,013 --> 00:45:16,693
Speaker 4: buildings and killing half as many people didn't have in

763
00:45:16,773 --> 00:45:20,493
Speaker 4: terms of the larger picture, in the apparent goals. When

764
00:45:21,213 --> 00:45:24,733
Speaker 4: if he would only declare victory, point to one of

765
00:45:24,733 --> 00:45:27,493
Speaker 4: these things, one of the reasons he's given for doing this,

766
00:45:27,573 --> 00:45:29,733
Speaker 4: and say, look, we achieved that, we put them back

767
00:45:29,733 --> 00:45:32,733
Speaker 4: in their box. We're victorious, We're on our way home.

768
00:45:32,733 --> 00:45:34,773
Speaker 4: We never we never meant to be here for the

769
00:45:34,773 --> 00:45:36,853
Speaker 4: rest of our lives. He would have a chance to

770
00:45:36,893 --> 00:45:39,493
Speaker 4: climb out of this political trap that he set for himself.

771
00:45:40,253 --> 00:45:45,413
Speaker 2: I'm wondering whether he can conclude this militarily by going

772
00:45:45,453 --> 00:45:48,413
Speaker 2: all out. Would you say that there was no chance

773
00:45:48,493 --> 00:45:52,573
Speaker 2: whatsoever of using a small nuclear weapon.

774
00:45:54,293 --> 00:45:56,893
Speaker 4: I would say, I say this very little. But there

775
00:45:56,973 --> 00:46:02,893
Speaker 4: are there are one or two neo can't advisers to

776
00:46:03,013 --> 00:46:06,813
Speaker 4: him who would be able would be able to do that,

777
00:46:06,853 --> 00:46:08,813
Speaker 4: They would be able to advise that he did that

778
00:46:08,973 --> 00:46:11,333
Speaker 4: if they thought it was necessary. So I wouldn't rule

779
00:46:11,373 --> 00:46:14,413
Speaker 4: it out completely. But no, I mean this is a

780
00:46:14,533 --> 00:46:16,533
Speaker 4: this is a classic case. I mean, this is if

781
00:46:17,373 --> 00:46:22,173
Speaker 4: if if Iraq was difficult to conquer and achieve successful

782
00:46:22,373 --> 00:46:25,613
Speaker 4: regime change in, and if Afghanistan was, I mean, they

783
00:46:25,613 --> 00:46:29,893
Speaker 4: are picnics compared with what Iran would be for all

784
00:46:29,973 --> 00:46:34,013
Speaker 4: kinds of reasons, from geography to population, to topography, to

785
00:46:34,093 --> 00:46:37,373
Speaker 4: the culture, to the military preparedness and all the rest

786
00:46:37,373 --> 00:46:41,373
Speaker 4: of it. The only way you could win this thing militarily.

787
00:46:41,573 --> 00:46:43,493
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's a it's a question, it's a case.

788
00:46:43,973 --> 00:46:45,973
Speaker 4: This is one of these situations late and I think

789
00:46:46,013 --> 00:46:49,253
Speaker 4: where you know, one country or two countries have so

790
00:46:49,373 --> 00:46:53,773
Speaker 4: much more at their disposal right in than the country

791
00:46:53,773 --> 00:46:57,813
Speaker 4: that they are attacking, and they win almost every battle,

792
00:46:57,813 --> 00:47:01,613
Speaker 4: but they end up losing the war because we didn't say,

793
00:47:01,653 --> 00:47:04,333
Speaker 4: as we did last summer we're doing this to knock

794
00:47:04,373 --> 00:47:06,693
Speaker 4: out this, this, and this, so they can't have to.

795
00:47:06,613 --> 00:47:09,533
Speaker 3: Build that, that, that and that, and they'll be they'll

796
00:47:09,573 --> 00:47:11,533
Speaker 3: be and they'll be mad to do so because we'll

797
00:47:11,533 --> 00:47:12,133
Speaker 3: come back again.

798
00:47:13,293 --> 00:47:17,853
Speaker 4: We're saying, regime change, liberate the people, and take care

799
00:47:17,893 --> 00:47:21,093
Speaker 4: of the nuclear program and bring prosperity and this and

800
00:47:21,133 --> 00:47:21,493
Speaker 4: the other.

801
00:47:22,053 --> 00:47:22,813
Speaker 3: We set the bar.

802
00:47:22,893 --> 00:47:24,813
Speaker 4: This is I mean, this is to talk about over

803
00:47:24,893 --> 00:47:28,813
Speaker 4: promising and under delivering. We've set the bar so high

804
00:47:28,933 --> 00:47:32,693
Speaker 4: you almost can't help but not win. Whereas the Iranians,

805
00:47:33,173 --> 00:47:35,493
Speaker 4: that is the regime. All they have to do is

806
00:47:35,533 --> 00:47:39,813
Speaker 4: survive and they've won and that is what they clearly

807
00:47:39,893 --> 00:47:42,933
Speaker 4: are doing and having prepared.

808
00:47:43,133 --> 00:47:44,973
Speaker 3: See, we've one of the mistakes.

809
00:47:45,013 --> 00:47:47,173
Speaker 4: I mean, it's human nature, but you think at that

810
00:47:47,213 --> 00:47:50,253
Speaker 4: at this high level, that high level, it shouldn't happen.

811
00:47:50,373 --> 00:47:50,573
Speaker 3: You know.

812
00:47:50,613 --> 00:47:53,253
Speaker 4: We it's very hard for us when people when we

813
00:47:53,293 --> 00:47:55,413
Speaker 4: disagree with people, we ppercially even think we're they're bad

814
00:47:55,493 --> 00:47:59,053
Speaker 4: people and we don't actually know them, but we know

815
00:47:59,133 --> 00:48:01,493
Speaker 4: the reputation. They know they do bad things and evil

816
00:48:01,533 --> 00:48:04,093
Speaker 4: things and all the rest of it. We also tend

817
00:48:04,093 --> 00:48:07,933
Speaker 4: to think that they are incompetent as well. Is if

818
00:48:07,933 --> 00:48:12,093
Speaker 4: the two who aren't mutually exclusive, but they are. Some

819
00:48:12,253 --> 00:48:14,493
Speaker 4: bad people are incompetent, and they end up getting caught

820
00:48:14,533 --> 00:48:16,493
Speaker 4: and they end up spend their lives in prison. But

821
00:48:16,533 --> 00:48:18,693
Speaker 4: there's a lot of very bad people who are quite

822
00:48:18,773 --> 00:48:22,453
Speaker 4: confident and quite right, and quite tactically and strategically.

823
00:48:23,533 --> 00:48:26,613
Speaker 3: Skilled, and they do very well for themselves, thank you

824
00:48:26,733 --> 00:48:27,173
Speaker 3: very much.

825
00:48:27,893 --> 00:48:30,973
Speaker 4: And so when we have a bad actor like the

826
00:48:31,013 --> 00:48:37,413
Speaker 4: Iranian regime, it's all the evidence so far is that

827
00:48:38,133 --> 00:48:43,893
Speaker 4: the most influential voices, the deciding voices in with and

828
00:48:43,973 --> 00:48:49,813
Speaker 4: around Trump before making this decision, we're telling him that

829
00:48:50,773 --> 00:48:53,213
Speaker 4: not only are these guys bad, and they pose a threat,

830
00:48:53,253 --> 00:48:55,053
Speaker 4: and we just can't put up with this madness anymore.

831
00:48:55,053 --> 00:48:58,133
Speaker 4: In Israel, shouldn't have to live with this nightmare in

832
00:48:58,173 --> 00:49:01,133
Speaker 4: their own backyard, all this kind of stuff. But they

833
00:49:01,133 --> 00:49:03,653
Speaker 4: don't know what they're doing. They're just literally going to

834
00:49:03,733 --> 00:49:07,013
Speaker 4: lay down their arms. Hence the call for the Revolutionary

835
00:49:07,013 --> 00:49:09,493
Speaker 4: Guard folks to give up their arms, and you know,

836
00:49:10,133 --> 00:49:12,853
Speaker 4: you won't be you won't be punished. You know, will

837
00:49:12,933 --> 00:49:16,973
Speaker 4: decapitate the regimes leadership and the whole thing that people

838
00:49:16,973 --> 00:49:19,893
Speaker 4: will rise up, everyone will be happy and all the

839
00:49:19,893 --> 00:49:23,013
Speaker 4: rest of it, right, because these guys have because the

840
00:49:23,053 --> 00:49:26,093
Speaker 4: Iranian regime has don't have a clue, you know there is.

841
00:49:26,093 --> 00:49:28,133
Speaker 4: They used to say they can't organize their way of

842
00:49:28,133 --> 00:49:31,093
Speaker 4: a wet paper bag. But of course the opposite was

843
00:49:31,133 --> 00:49:33,013
Speaker 4: true in the tastes of the Iranians, which is part

844
00:49:33,013 --> 00:49:35,333
Speaker 4: of the reason they've been so successful. It being such

845
00:49:35,373 --> 00:49:38,893
Speaker 4: bad actors for so long. So you know, they were ready.

846
00:49:38,973 --> 00:49:40,773
Speaker 4: They were as ready as you can be. You have

847
00:49:40,813 --> 00:49:43,893
Speaker 4: a situation where Israel and the US, because think of

848
00:49:43,893 --> 00:49:46,373
Speaker 4: it like as a poker game. Israel in the US

849
00:49:46,933 --> 00:49:50,933
Speaker 4: began with quite strong hands, right. I don't think they've

850
00:49:50,933 --> 00:49:53,493
Speaker 4: played them very well, but they had strong hands. The

851
00:49:53,533 --> 00:49:58,493
Speaker 4: Iranians had comparatively weak hands, not not not fought terrible

852
00:49:58,533 --> 00:50:02,333
Speaker 4: hands to play, but much less value than the than

853
00:50:02,373 --> 00:50:05,453
Speaker 4: the Israelis and the Americans. But the Iranians have played

854
00:50:05,493 --> 00:50:08,973
Speaker 4: them artfully. They've played their hand really, really well. And

855
00:50:09,013 --> 00:50:12,813
Speaker 4: not because they were spontaneously, oh let's suddenly off the

856
00:50:12,813 --> 00:50:14,373
Speaker 4: top of our heads, let's do this, this, and this,

857
00:50:14,693 --> 00:50:17,413
Speaker 4: because they planned it out. They knew exactly what they

858
00:50:17,453 --> 00:50:18,613
Speaker 4: were going to do and how they were going to

859
00:50:18,613 --> 00:50:20,133
Speaker 4: do it, and they knew what the Americans would do,

860
00:50:20,373 --> 00:50:23,693
Speaker 4: which is what the Americans always do shockun ow. Let's just,

861
00:50:23,973 --> 00:50:26,413
Speaker 4: you know, we kill enough people and blow enough things up,

862
00:50:27,333 --> 00:50:31,813
Speaker 4: everything will be fine. And it's you know, so we've massively,

863
00:50:32,133 --> 00:50:35,453
Speaker 4: massively underestimated and underappreciated our enemy.

864
00:50:35,973 --> 00:50:37,133
Speaker 3: And you know this is a result.

865
00:50:37,173 --> 00:50:41,133
Speaker 4: But the fact that it's happened just decades from the

866
00:50:41,173 --> 00:50:46,133
Speaker 4: Afghanistan debacle and the Rack debacle, and at the instruction

867
00:50:46,253 --> 00:50:50,933
Speaker 4: of the person one of the people most aware of

868
00:50:51,173 --> 00:50:54,733
Speaker 4: what went wrong in America's meddling in the Middle East

869
00:50:55,053 --> 00:50:58,653
Speaker 4: and was most committed to it not happening again is

870
00:50:59,613 --> 00:51:03,333
Speaker 4: beyond baffling for most people on his side of the

871
00:51:03,413 --> 00:51:07,973
Speaker 4: political aisle, who took him at his word that he

872
00:51:08,093 --> 00:51:09,853
Speaker 4: just wouldn't do this kind of thing again.

873
00:51:10,533 --> 00:51:15,653
Speaker 2: But let's assume that the the facts are right with

874
00:51:15,653 --> 00:51:21,773
Speaker 2: regard to that that whitcof report. Let's assume that it's

875
00:51:21,813 --> 00:51:24,413
Speaker 2: all true that there are only two weeks away from

876
00:51:24,573 --> 00:51:32,133
Speaker 2: converting sixty sixty proof my terminology, I think, but sixty

877
00:51:32,213 --> 00:51:36,573
Speaker 2: proof into into a proper weapon only a couple of

878
00:51:36,613 --> 00:51:41,013
Speaker 2: only a couple of weeks, and in those in those

879
00:51:41,013 --> 00:51:44,253
Speaker 2: two weeks, nothing else has resolved. And so the next

880
00:51:44,253 --> 00:51:48,373
Speaker 2: thing you find out is that they've pulled a Hiroshima

881
00:51:48,413 --> 00:51:53,693
Speaker 2: on America and New York's gone down the toilet or something.

882
00:51:54,093 --> 00:51:58,453
Speaker 2: That's that's the reference most people make, right, what would

883
00:51:58,533 --> 00:52:04,573
Speaker 2: you how would how would you get over that in

884
00:52:04,613 --> 00:52:12,133
Speaker 2: any which way, whichever side of the argument you were ontistics.

885
00:52:09,773 --> 00:52:10,453
Speaker 3: Of it as it were.

886
00:52:12,573 --> 00:52:18,573
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, again, it presumes that they are the

887
00:52:18,613 --> 00:52:21,933
Speaker 4: Iranians in this case. You can you know, you talk

888
00:52:21,933 --> 00:52:24,933
Speaker 4: about other bad actor regimes around the world, current and

889
00:52:26,213 --> 00:52:30,173
Speaker 4: recent history. It presumes that they are acting a very

890
00:52:30,213 --> 00:52:33,093
Speaker 4: different way to most human beings do. So that is,

891
00:52:33,733 --> 00:52:38,373
Speaker 4: it presumes that they are suicidal. Right, Well, okay, that's

892
00:52:38,573 --> 00:52:40,773
Speaker 4: that's that's a fair I mean, that's a fair response.

893
00:52:41,333 --> 00:52:45,093
Speaker 4: That is a you know, that's that's sort of topic

894
00:52:45,133 --> 00:52:49,293
Speaker 4: worthy of of of serious debate. I would say that

895
00:52:49,533 --> 00:52:53,893
Speaker 4: there is no question that they that that the more

896
00:52:53,933 --> 00:52:58,173
Speaker 4: devout followers of the faith are willing to die for

897
00:52:58,253 --> 00:53:04,053
Speaker 4: the cause. But I don't think there's a lot of

898
00:53:04,093 --> 00:53:08,613
Speaker 4: evidence that they that the country is willing to die.

899
00:53:08,333 --> 00:53:12,613
Speaker 4: I sort of pre proactively for the cause. That is,

900
00:53:13,173 --> 00:53:15,773
Speaker 4: we're worried about them doing something to us or to Israel.

901
00:53:16,773 --> 00:53:21,493
Speaker 4: Now the reason they have, I mean that they have

902
00:53:21,733 --> 00:53:23,813
Speaker 4: they want nuclear weapons for two reasons.

903
00:53:23,853 --> 00:53:26,693
Speaker 3: One that the baddest actors among them.

904
00:53:26,573 --> 00:53:28,413
Speaker 4: Would like to have that in their back pocket in

905
00:53:28,493 --> 00:53:32,413
Speaker 4: case they thought they could get away with doing something

906
00:53:32,413 --> 00:53:34,933
Speaker 4: to Israel, or they could somehow reach America and the

907
00:53:34,973 --> 00:53:38,373
Speaker 4: American president was not up to the job and wouldn't

908
00:53:38,373 --> 00:53:40,773
Speaker 4: wipe them off the face of the earth. Right, there's

909
00:53:40,773 --> 00:53:44,133
Speaker 4: always the possibility that people are, you know, misjudging us,

910
00:53:44,213 --> 00:53:49,413
Speaker 4: just as we misjudge them. But there's also the element

911
00:53:49,533 --> 00:53:52,013
Speaker 4: of the regime, as there are in most such regimes,

912
00:53:52,293 --> 00:53:56,933
Speaker 4: where nuclear weapons gives them security. It's it's a secure

913
00:53:56,973 --> 00:54:00,653
Speaker 4: it's a it's a literal security blanket. It inoculates them, right,

914
00:54:00,813 --> 00:54:05,253
Speaker 4: I see one of the problems with our we told

915
00:54:06,293 --> 00:54:07,853
Speaker 4: as we go back too far. But you know when

916
00:54:07,893 --> 00:54:10,693
Speaker 4: we told the Kadaffi and Libya part of the access

917
00:54:10,733 --> 00:54:12,813
Speaker 4: of evil after nine to eleven, you know, give up

918
00:54:12,813 --> 00:54:16,173
Speaker 4: your give up your your bad your nasty tools and instruments,

919
00:54:16,453 --> 00:54:18,693
Speaker 4: and everything will be fine. And of course they did,

920
00:54:19,293 --> 00:54:25,093
Speaker 4: he did, and we killed him anyway. So the message,

921
00:54:25,373 --> 00:54:29,453
Speaker 4: the message for decades has been well heard around the

922
00:54:29,493 --> 00:54:33,813
Speaker 4: world in these nasty backwaters and back alleys, as it were,

923
00:54:34,213 --> 00:54:37,213
Speaker 4: that the own America can't be trusted, whether you think

924
00:54:37,253 --> 00:54:40,293
Speaker 4: that's true or not. We have to understand what the

925
00:54:40,333 --> 00:54:43,293
Speaker 4: bad actors are thinking. And as far as they're concerned

926
00:54:43,733 --> 00:54:45,333
Speaker 4: to a man as it were, if I may be

927
00:54:45,373 --> 00:54:48,133
Speaker 4: some politically incorrect to a man, to a government, to

928
00:54:48,173 --> 00:54:51,253
Speaker 4: a regime, they are adamant that America cannot be trusted.

929
00:54:51,253 --> 00:54:54,093
Speaker 4: And the Iranians would say, most recently, well, last summer

930
00:54:54,093 --> 00:54:56,293
Speaker 4: we were negotiating with them, they started bombing us. This

931
00:54:56,333 --> 00:54:58,333
Speaker 4: summer we were negotiating with them, they started to start

932
00:54:58,413 --> 00:55:01,333
Speaker 4: bombing us. All these sorts of things that have built

933
00:55:01,413 --> 00:55:06,453
Speaker 4: up their view of us, however wrong, that may be inaccurate,

934
00:55:06,493 --> 00:55:10,573
Speaker 4: that may be they believe that the only thing that

935
00:55:10,213 --> 00:55:16,133
Speaker 4: that the only thing that ensures their survival is nuclear weapons.

936
00:55:16,493 --> 00:55:19,773
Speaker 3: They believe. It's why we don't like.

937
00:55:20,093 --> 00:55:22,653
Speaker 4: The guy in North Korea, but we kind of leave

938
00:55:22,733 --> 00:55:25,293
Speaker 4: him alone, don't we. Why is that we don't Well,

939
00:55:25,333 --> 00:55:29,853
Speaker 4: the merits Biden installed them, uh coued the democratic who

940
00:55:29,893 --> 00:55:33,053
Speaker 4: elected prime minister of Pakistan. But we've never really done

941
00:55:33,053 --> 00:55:35,773
Speaker 4: a lot about Pakistan because what they got nuclear weapons,

942
00:55:35,813 --> 00:55:38,453
Speaker 4: don't they. We kind of let the Chinese push us

943
00:55:38,493 --> 00:55:41,093
Speaker 4: around most of the time, because well, you know, they

944
00:55:41,173 --> 00:55:41,653
Speaker 4: got a lot.

945
00:55:41,493 --> 00:55:43,013
Speaker 3: Of things, including nuclear weapons.

946
00:55:43,813 --> 00:55:48,133
Speaker 4: So the Iranians, for bad actor regimes, it's a race.

947
00:55:48,773 --> 00:55:50,493
Speaker 3: It's a race from their point of view, a race

948
00:55:50,573 --> 00:55:51,213
Speaker 3: to survival.

949
00:55:51,573 --> 00:55:53,733
Speaker 4: We think of it as they're racing to help then

950
00:55:53,893 --> 00:55:56,493
Speaker 4: get those weapons so they can hit us and our allies.

951
00:55:56,813 --> 00:55:58,493
Speaker 4: And as I say, some of them may be thinking

952
00:55:58,493 --> 00:56:01,053
Speaker 4: that absolutely, but for most of them, it's how quickly

953
00:56:01,053 --> 00:56:03,373
Speaker 4: can we ensure that they never attack us? Because they

954
00:56:03,413 --> 00:56:05,933
Speaker 4: know they can't. So if if we know there's two

955
00:56:05,973 --> 00:56:11,173
Speaker 4: weeks to go, it only takes one phone call to

956
00:56:11,293 --> 00:56:15,173
Speaker 4: ensure that they understand what happens. If we get the

957
00:56:15,213 --> 00:56:21,253
Speaker 4: slightest width that something is afoot right and you know

958
00:56:21,333 --> 00:56:25,173
Speaker 4: it's it's the mutually assured destruction that we used successfully

959
00:56:25,213 --> 00:56:27,533
Speaker 4: with the Soviet Union for a generation.

960
00:56:27,373 --> 00:56:29,653
Speaker 2: Then then I've got to I've got to pick I

961
00:56:29,733 --> 00:56:33,613
Speaker 2: have to interrupt and pick up on this. Yeah, and

962
00:56:33,733 --> 00:56:38,613
Speaker 2: I'll utilize this quite before I forget it. But it

963
00:56:38,733 --> 00:56:42,533
Speaker 2: only takes one nuke to ruin a day.

964
00:56:43,853 --> 00:56:44,093
Speaker 1: Now.

965
00:56:44,333 --> 00:56:47,413
Speaker 2: The point that I'm that I was going to make, though,

966
00:56:47,653 --> 00:56:54,373
Speaker 2: is with with your with's your argument about Iran wanting

967
00:56:54,413 --> 00:56:58,773
Speaker 2: it for self defense? For instance? Why would they need it?

968
00:56:59,173 --> 00:57:02,813
Speaker 2: Why would they need it? They if they are a

969
00:57:02,853 --> 00:57:05,493
Speaker 2: peace loving country and they just want to be left alone,

970
00:57:05,693 --> 00:57:08,093
Speaker 2: then they will be left alone. No one's going if

971
00:57:08,493 --> 00:57:10,613
Speaker 2: they're not a threat to anybody, no one's going to

972
00:57:11,333 --> 00:57:13,973
Speaker 2: bother about them. But when you've got a when you've

973
00:57:13,973 --> 00:57:19,853
Speaker 2: got an administration that started its career back in when

974
00:57:19,973 --> 00:57:24,613
Speaker 2: was it eighty nine or ninety nine with taking over

975
00:57:24,653 --> 00:57:30,773
Speaker 2: the American embassy, and then they have killed so many

976
00:57:30,933 --> 00:57:35,453
Speaker 2: of their own Iranian people, and only recently for the

977
00:57:35,493 --> 00:57:39,973
Speaker 2: last episode where the numbers are unknown, but I've heard

978
00:57:39,973 --> 00:57:43,613
Speaker 2: every number from ten thousand to fifty thousand. I don't

979
00:57:43,613 --> 00:57:46,453
Speaker 2: believe the fifty, but I could accept thirty or something.

980
00:57:46,573 --> 00:57:48,293
Speaker 2: But the point being that they just go out and

981
00:57:48,293 --> 00:57:51,053
Speaker 2: wipe them out in the street with machine guns, kill

982
00:57:51,093 --> 00:57:55,213
Speaker 2: them their own people. What sort of government is that

983
00:57:56,173 --> 00:57:59,373
Speaker 2: does it care about its people? Obviously not so what

984
00:57:59,573 --> 00:58:04,093
Speaker 2: is this motive? And the motive is because they believe

985
00:58:04,213 --> 00:58:08,733
Speaker 2: that they it's their responsibility that Alah has been structed

986
00:58:08,813 --> 00:58:11,573
Speaker 2: them to basically take over the world.

987
00:58:14,053 --> 00:58:17,533
Speaker 4: Well, it's it's the combination of you know, religious religious

988
00:58:17,573 --> 00:58:21,613
Speaker 4: fanaticism and then just straight human nature in terms of desire.

989
00:58:21,253 --> 00:58:25,693
Speaker 3: For power right.

990
00:58:23,893 --> 00:58:27,733
Speaker 4: And their their view of taking care of their people

991
00:58:27,813 --> 00:58:30,333
Speaker 4: is very different to hopefully our view of taking care

992
00:58:30,373 --> 00:58:31,013
Speaker 4: of our people.

993
00:58:32,573 --> 00:58:34,093
Speaker 3: But I mean there is that.

994
00:58:34,173 --> 00:58:36,533
Speaker 4: It just not to go back to that issue in

995
00:58:36,573 --> 00:58:39,213
Speaker 4: a moment later in about sort of how it is

996
00:58:39,253 --> 00:58:40,493
Speaker 4: there and what people think of it.

997
00:58:40,613 --> 00:58:44,253
Speaker 3: There the issue of the nuclear weapons and the.

998
00:58:45,733 --> 00:58:49,013
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, we we have we have allies with

999
00:58:49,093 --> 00:58:51,933
Speaker 4: nuclear weapons, and we have enemies with nuclear weapons, and

1000
00:58:51,933 --> 00:58:54,933
Speaker 4: I've had both for a long time. No one has

1001
00:58:54,973 --> 00:58:59,013
Speaker 4: attacked us or our allies with them, right, I would

1002
00:58:59,013 --> 00:59:04,613
Speaker 4: suggest that's a rather strong stream of evidence that the threat,

1003
00:59:05,173 --> 00:59:08,933
Speaker 4: the the known threat, the known old to mate them,

1004
00:59:08,973 --> 00:59:11,773
Speaker 4: that they that our enemies, bad actors, have.

1005
00:59:13,373 --> 00:59:14,053
Speaker 3: Carries the day.

1006
00:59:14,133 --> 00:59:16,013
Speaker 4: So far, you know, the weight of the evidence is

1007
00:59:16,013 --> 00:59:19,093
Speaker 4: in favor of those say who say that these people.

1008
00:59:18,933 --> 00:59:20,413
Speaker 3: Are not suicidal.

1009
00:59:20,813 --> 00:59:23,533
Speaker 4: Doesn't mean that none of them are suicidal, but the

1010
00:59:23,573 --> 00:59:26,893
Speaker 4: ones who actually control the you know, control the button

1011
00:59:27,453 --> 00:59:31,613
Speaker 4: that counts aren't. And you know it's and then when

1012
00:59:31,613 --> 00:59:35,213
Speaker 4: it's so, I don't think we have to again we

1013
00:59:35,573 --> 00:59:40,653
Speaker 4: have to recognize that they they are acting in their

1014
00:59:40,693 --> 00:59:43,293
Speaker 4: what they believe to be their own self interest, which

1015
00:59:43,333 --> 00:59:48,573
Speaker 4: is what everybody does accept most Western nations, right, And

1016
00:59:49,373 --> 00:59:50,613
Speaker 4: part of the reason we don't do that is we

1017
00:59:50,613 --> 00:59:52,453
Speaker 4: don't understand why they're acting the way they are. I

1018
00:59:52,493 --> 00:59:54,973
Speaker 4: guess what I'm trying to suggest to your audience is

1019
00:59:55,013 --> 00:59:57,973
Speaker 4: that we may hate everything that they do and say,

1020
00:59:58,853 --> 01:00:01,573
Speaker 4: but some of the things they do and say makes

1021
01:00:01,573 --> 01:00:04,813
Speaker 4: sense given who they are, in their position in the world,

1022
01:00:04,853 --> 01:00:08,653
Speaker 4: their position in the Middle East, et cetera. Right, and

1023
01:00:08,653 --> 01:00:12,333
Speaker 4: and and the nuclear program. This I'm not trying to suggest.

1024
01:00:12,333 --> 01:00:13,973
Speaker 4: I'm not going to suggest that what I'm what I

1025
01:00:14,213 --> 01:00:17,053
Speaker 4: say next is the number one reason for it. Far

1026
01:00:17,093 --> 01:00:18,933
Speaker 4: from it, or that that should be the oh we

1027
01:00:18,973 --> 01:00:21,293
Speaker 4: should just say, well, there's no problem then. But it

1028
01:00:21,413 --> 01:00:24,693
Speaker 4: is also in a in a society that's so nationalistic,

1029
01:00:26,253 --> 01:00:28,213
Speaker 4: it is a it is a it is a symbol

1030
01:00:28,333 --> 01:00:31,733
Speaker 4: of national and cultural pride. Right that they that they

1031
01:00:31,813 --> 01:00:35,853
Speaker 4: have something that they will have hope to have something

1032
01:00:36,093 --> 01:00:39,853
Speaker 4: like that at their disposal, that they have achieved that

1033
01:00:39,933 --> 01:00:40,773
Speaker 4: against all the odds.

1034
01:00:40,813 --> 01:00:40,933
Speaker 3: You know.

1035
01:00:41,013 --> 01:00:43,613
Speaker 4: So whether it's the pakistanis the North Koreans, the Chinese,

1036
01:00:43,693 --> 01:00:48,653
Speaker 4: or whomever it is, the French, arguably, you know, this

1037
01:00:48,773 --> 01:00:52,173
Speaker 4: is something that we we say, you know, signify symbolizes

1038
01:00:52,253 --> 01:00:54,893
Speaker 4: that we count right, and that's that's another one of

1039
01:00:54,933 --> 01:00:58,013
Speaker 4: the reasons why they have it but everything we're doing

1040
01:00:59,413 --> 01:01:02,613
Speaker 4: is encouraging them to get there as fast as possible.

1041
01:01:03,533 --> 01:01:05,333
Speaker 4: And you may say, well, they're going to want to

1042
01:01:05,333 --> 01:01:09,173
Speaker 4: get as fas as possible anyway, so it doesn't matter, right.

1043
01:01:09,933 --> 01:01:10,093
Speaker 3: But.

1044
01:01:11,813 --> 01:01:14,013
Speaker 4: We you know, we don't have we have we have

1045
01:01:14,093 --> 01:01:18,493
Speaker 4: no evidence that they we are say, our own in them.

1046
01:01:18,653 --> 01:01:21,453
Speaker 4: I'm not suggesting that they said to us across the table,

1047
01:01:21,533 --> 01:01:25,813
Speaker 4: to to Witkoff and Pushner, look, you know, we'll never

1048
01:01:25,933 --> 01:01:26,653
Speaker 4: use this stuff.

1049
01:01:26,773 --> 01:01:29,613
Speaker 3: We're never actually going to do it. I'm not saying

1050
01:01:29,613 --> 01:01:29,973
Speaker 3: that at all.

1051
01:01:29,973 --> 01:01:34,773
Speaker 4: What I'm saying is that our own experts said they're

1052
01:01:34,773 --> 01:01:35,973
Speaker 4: not They're not going to have be able to do

1053
01:01:36,013 --> 01:01:37,093
Speaker 4: this to us for a decade.

1054
01:01:37,413 --> 01:01:41,093
Speaker 3: I can't do it to Israel either, right. So what

1055
01:01:41,133 --> 01:01:41,893
Speaker 3: Trump has.

1056
01:01:41,733 --> 01:01:45,653
Speaker 4: Done, and maybe he'll be proven correct in the long term,

1057
01:01:45,773 --> 01:01:47,933
Speaker 4: what he's done is he said, he has said that

1058
01:01:47,973 --> 01:01:51,213
Speaker 4: the military people and the nuclear people and the technical

1059
01:01:51,253 --> 01:01:54,533
Speaker 4: people who we pay the big bucks to let us

1060
01:01:54,573 --> 01:01:55,293
Speaker 4: know what hell's.

1061
01:01:55,093 --> 01:01:58,093
Speaker 3: Going on, have told me one thing.

1062
01:01:58,173 --> 01:02:00,933
Speaker 4: And I'm gonna go with my gut or I'm going

1063
01:02:01,013 --> 01:02:03,853
Speaker 4: to go with what Pushner and Witcoff picked up.

1064
01:02:04,173 --> 01:02:07,013
Speaker 3: You know, Mano and Mano across the table, and we're

1065
01:02:07,053 --> 01:02:08,013
Speaker 3: gonna We're gonna go for it.

1066
01:02:08,053 --> 01:02:10,373
Speaker 4: I mean, the Chief of the Joint Chairman of the

1067
01:02:10,453 --> 01:02:14,533
Speaker 4: Juant chiefs of Staff, the head military man, presidence made

1068
01:02:14,573 --> 01:02:15,573
Speaker 4: military advisor.

1069
01:02:16,733 --> 01:02:18,413
Speaker 3: He only could he not guarantee.

1070
01:02:18,453 --> 01:02:20,333
Speaker 4: He didn't even get into the regime idea, which was

1071
01:02:20,373 --> 01:02:23,533
Speaker 4: never going to be achieved. But he said, I can't

1072
01:02:23,573 --> 01:02:26,653
Speaker 4: guarantee you that even militarily, we're going to win this.

1073
01:02:26,733 --> 01:02:30,413
Speaker 4: I mean, we should probably will, but I can't guarantee

1074
01:02:30,413 --> 01:02:32,293
Speaker 4: you that we will, or how long it will last,

1075
01:02:32,413 --> 01:02:33,733
Speaker 4: or how many people will die, or how much it

1076
01:02:33,733 --> 01:02:37,133
Speaker 4: will cost, and all the rest of it. And you know,

1077
01:02:37,453 --> 01:02:40,693
Speaker 4: it was when it's when it is, from my perspective,

1078
01:02:41,133 --> 01:02:43,253
Speaker 4: a war of choice. You want to be a little

1079
01:02:43,333 --> 01:02:46,453
Speaker 4: more certain and more certainty on a number of these

1080
01:02:46,493 --> 01:02:49,133
Speaker 4: things before you go forward. And in one of them,

1081
01:02:49,133 --> 01:02:52,213
Speaker 4: of course, is the real elephant in the room, is

1082
01:02:52,253 --> 01:02:55,293
Speaker 4: the regime change business. Which because when when I woke

1083
01:02:55,373 --> 01:02:59,373
Speaker 4: up on the Saturday morning here and a few hours earlier,

1084
01:02:59,573 --> 01:03:02,693
Speaker 4: I guess the tax had begun, and I was reading

1085
01:03:02,733 --> 01:03:07,173
Speaker 4: Trump's initial statement and he about what was going on,

1086
01:03:07,813 --> 01:03:11,533
Speaker 4: and I was absolutely gobsmacked that he headlined the regime

1087
01:03:11,893 --> 01:03:13,613
Speaker 4: changed part of it, because I thought, if he ended

1088
01:03:13,693 --> 01:03:16,093
Speaker 4: up doing this. He would say, we kind of missed

1089
01:03:16,133 --> 01:03:19,133
Speaker 4: something last summer, and those buggers are back at it again,

1090
01:03:19,173 --> 01:03:20,333
Speaker 4: and we're going to go in and we're going to

1091
01:03:20,373 --> 01:03:23,293
Speaker 4: take it, do what we finished the job and I

1092
01:03:23,373 --> 01:03:23,893
Speaker 4: and fair.

1093
01:03:23,853 --> 01:03:26,053
Speaker 3: Enough, Okay, let's hope that works and all the rest

1094
01:03:26,053 --> 01:03:26,213
Speaker 3: of it.

1095
01:03:26,253 --> 01:03:29,413
Speaker 4: But he actually headlined regime change, and that's been central

1096
01:03:29,493 --> 01:03:33,493
Speaker 4: to most of the explanations and the answers to what

1097
01:03:33,533 --> 01:03:34,893
Speaker 4: are we what the heck are we doing there?

1098
01:03:35,813 --> 01:03:38,093
Speaker 3: And then that presumes, of course.

1099
01:03:38,573 --> 01:03:44,853
Speaker 4: That the people in Iran, if you bomb them enough,

1100
01:03:45,453 --> 01:03:48,133
Speaker 4: they will welcome you as liberators and want to overthrow

1101
01:03:48,173 --> 01:03:52,853
Speaker 4: their government. Maybe they should, but that's in human history.

1102
01:03:52,893 --> 01:03:56,293
Speaker 4: That doesn't happen very often, right. Uh, you know, we

1103
01:03:56,613 --> 01:03:59,013
Speaker 4: could bomb them into liberation. This is this is this

1104
01:03:59,053 --> 01:04:01,933
Speaker 4: is our argument actually yea, And of course it's not

1105
01:04:02,013 --> 01:04:05,413
Speaker 4: our argument. Argue against myself for a moment, because what

1106
01:04:05,493 --> 01:04:07,533
Speaker 4: we were saying, what we were thinking, we weren't thinking

1107
01:04:07,573 --> 01:04:09,893
Speaker 4: we'd have to bomb them into liberation. We were thinking

1108
01:04:10,093 --> 01:04:14,173
Speaker 4: we'd kill the top guys, the people we'd identified as

1109
01:04:14,253 --> 01:04:17,133
Speaker 4: the people we could quote unquote work with, would take over.

1110
01:04:17,213 --> 01:04:20,493
Speaker 4: The people would rise up in happiness, and it would

1111
01:04:20,493 --> 01:04:24,853
Speaker 4: all be over by Sunday night, Monday morning, stock market's good, everybody,

1112
01:04:25,013 --> 01:04:26,293
Speaker 4: you know, Bang, we're in, We're out.

1113
01:04:26,693 --> 01:04:29,453
Speaker 3: Iran has been has been saved. Israel has been saved.

1114
01:04:29,453 --> 01:04:30,653
Speaker 3: We've been saved.

1115
01:04:31,813 --> 01:04:38,453
Speaker 4: Because we didn't understand, bizarrely, we didn't understand Iranian political culture.

1116
01:04:39,453 --> 01:04:43,373
Speaker 4: Why Iranians, of our Iranians protesting against their regime the

1117
01:04:43,453 --> 01:04:45,893
Speaker 4: prior to the war. Yes, why because they want to

1118
01:04:45,893 --> 01:04:49,453
Speaker 4: overthrow the Eye tone and all of that. No, some do,

1119
01:04:49,813 --> 01:04:53,973
Speaker 4: most don't. It's because the economy sucks and the standard

1120
01:04:54,013 --> 01:04:56,413
Speaker 4: of living has been going down for some time, partly

1121
01:04:56,453 --> 01:04:59,213
Speaker 4: because the the the Eye tollers can't you know, they

1122
01:04:59,253 --> 01:05:01,133
Speaker 4: can't manage their way out of a wet paper bag,

1123
01:05:01,253 --> 01:05:03,213
Speaker 4: and also because the sanctions that we've got on them.

1124
01:05:03,253 --> 01:05:04,533
Speaker 3: The point of the sanctions.

1125
01:05:04,213 --> 01:05:07,573
Speaker 4: Is to is to squeeze harder and harder on the

1126
01:05:07,573 --> 01:05:10,733
Speaker 4: people till they up. Well, the people haven't risen up,

1127
01:05:10,773 --> 01:05:13,853
Speaker 4: but they are mad as hell, both at us and

1128
01:05:13,933 --> 01:05:17,973
Speaker 4: at their rules that they can't have a decent, decent economy.

1129
01:05:18,133 --> 01:05:22,373
Speaker 4: But being upset about your economic situation is a million

1130
01:05:22,453 --> 01:05:25,653
Speaker 4: miles from being willing to take up arms to overthrow

1131
01:05:25,693 --> 01:05:26,293
Speaker 4: the regime.

1132
01:05:26,653 --> 01:05:30,213
Speaker 3: And you know, do. What those American bombers are you know,

1133
01:05:30,853 --> 01:05:31,493
Speaker 3: helping us do?

1134
01:05:32,453 --> 01:05:36,093
Speaker 4: So, you know, every which way, we've just completely misread it.

1135
01:05:36,933 --> 01:05:39,133
Speaker 4: And so we've made what was always going to be

1136
01:05:39,253 --> 01:05:43,453
Speaker 4: a really tough lift, a really heavy lift, into so

1137
01:05:43,613 --> 01:05:46,533
Speaker 4: much harder than it was always going to be anyway,

1138
01:05:47,373 --> 01:05:49,973
Speaker 4: making it sort of from an improbability. I would say,

1139
01:05:50,253 --> 01:05:51,893
Speaker 4: if you said to me the day before we're going

1140
01:05:51,933 --> 01:05:54,733
Speaker 4: to start this tomorrow, how probable is it that we succeed?

1141
01:05:54,733 --> 01:05:57,613
Speaker 4: I would say it was improbable. What it's possible, assuming

1142
01:05:57,653 --> 01:05:59,933
Speaker 4: that we had it all planned out, We had, you know,

1143
01:06:00,173 --> 01:06:04,493
Speaker 4: all kinds of backups, we had all the all the.

1144
01:06:03,773 --> 01:06:06,373
Speaker 3: Externalities and all the ripples on the pond. We foresaw those

1145
01:06:06,373 --> 01:06:08,773
Speaker 3: and we knew what we would do. But it turns

1146
01:06:08,813 --> 01:06:09,613
Speaker 3: out we didn't, right.

1147
01:06:09,693 --> 01:06:11,733
Speaker 4: I mean, Trump's been quite open about the fact that

1148
01:06:12,053 --> 01:06:14,533
Speaker 4: we didn't expect them to fight back. He's actually said

1149
01:06:14,573 --> 01:06:16,213
Speaker 4: that we just they just thought that we're just not

1150
01:06:17,253 --> 01:06:21,653
Speaker 4: they expect does expect them to bomb American bases? They

1151
01:06:21,653 --> 01:06:24,333
Speaker 4: didn't expect them to close the Straight of hor moves.

1152
01:06:24,413 --> 01:06:25,573
Speaker 4: They didn't expect them.

1153
01:06:26,453 --> 01:06:29,453
Speaker 2: I'm sure that her moves was was on the list.

1154
01:06:30,253 --> 01:06:31,733
Speaker 3: Oh well, okay, here's the thing.

1155
01:06:31,813 --> 01:06:35,853
Speaker 4: Well, yes, it was just yesterday late that Trump's press

1156
01:06:35,853 --> 01:06:39,533
Speaker 4: secretary said that, So they had to do this because

1157
01:06:40,093 --> 01:06:42,773
Speaker 4: they knew that the straight of horror moves would be closed.

1158
01:06:43,093 --> 01:06:45,613
Speaker 4: Why would it be closed, Well, because if they were attacked,

1159
01:06:45,613 --> 01:06:47,373
Speaker 4: they would close it. So we attacked them and they

1160
01:06:47,453 --> 01:06:50,773
Speaker 4: closed it, right. I mean, the fact that his press

1161
01:06:50,813 --> 01:06:52,893
Speaker 4: secretary can't make a good case for it doesn't mean

1162
01:06:52,893 --> 01:06:54,373
Speaker 4: there isn't a good case for it out there.

1163
01:06:54,573 --> 01:06:57,973
Speaker 3: But I'm just saying that. It's it's just it's it's it's.

1164
01:06:57,813 --> 01:07:02,413
Speaker 4: Symptomatic of how we just haven't we just haven't thought

1165
01:07:02,693 --> 01:07:07,893
Speaker 4: this out at all, right, and then now the world

1166
01:07:08,133 --> 01:07:11,053
Speaker 4: is being held hostage economically, or it looks like will

1167
01:07:11,093 --> 01:07:16,093
Speaker 4: be held hostage economically, And it's so the the ripples

1168
01:07:16,093 --> 01:07:17,733
Speaker 4: on the pond, it's like it's going to be a

1169
01:07:17,773 --> 01:07:20,293
Speaker 4: tsunami if we don't pull the plug on this. And

1170
01:07:20,333 --> 01:07:22,893
Speaker 4: it's again, it's all by choice, none of this.

1171
01:07:23,213 --> 01:07:23,573
Speaker 3: Obviously.

1172
01:07:23,613 --> 01:07:25,453
Speaker 4: If you think that there were five minutes away from

1173
01:07:25,493 --> 01:07:29,853
Speaker 4: bombing New York, you know that's that, I mean, were

1174
01:07:30,053 --> 01:07:32,533
Speaker 4: you know, you you go with that and you deal

1175
01:07:32,573 --> 01:07:35,373
Speaker 4: with the consequences for those of us who don't, for

1176
01:07:35,413 --> 01:07:40,293
Speaker 4: those of us who don't. The consequences were never entirely predictable,

1177
01:07:40,333 --> 01:07:44,893
Speaker 4: but largely predictable, and now we all have to live

1178
01:07:44,893 --> 01:07:45,213
Speaker 4: with them.

1179
01:07:46,093 --> 01:07:51,693
Speaker 2: It seems all right, So let me ask you respectfully

1180
01:07:51,773 --> 01:07:55,013
Speaker 2: for a for a short answer to this question. Uh,

1181
01:07:55,853 --> 01:08:02,333
Speaker 2: what you've just described is that arguably an equivalent in

1182
01:08:02,373 --> 01:08:07,813
Speaker 2: today's in today's world to Troy and the horse.

1183
01:08:08,413 --> 01:08:09,853
Speaker 4: I think it's actually, you know, at the top of

1184
01:08:09,893 --> 01:08:13,613
Speaker 4: my head, I would say, in in the the goal

1185
01:08:13,653 --> 01:08:18,013
Speaker 4: of brevity here that you suggested I employ, I would

1186
01:08:18,093 --> 01:08:20,293
Speaker 4: say that that's a that's a that's a pretty good

1187
01:08:20,893 --> 01:08:23,373
Speaker 4: might be a bit crue, but it's a pretty good analogy. Again,

1188
01:08:23,453 --> 01:08:26,253
Speaker 4: it's that, you know, making the most of your weaker

1189
01:08:26,293 --> 01:08:32,293
Speaker 4: hand and not just saying not just saying, okay, there's

1190
01:08:32,293 --> 01:08:35,253
Speaker 4: no way we can beat you militarily, which is true

1191
01:08:35,573 --> 01:08:37,733
Speaker 4: because after all, as you say, as you said earlier,

1192
01:08:37,773 --> 01:08:40,453
Speaker 4: late and come come, push, comes to shop, we just

1193
01:08:40,533 --> 01:08:45,533
Speaker 4: knew them right and they know that. But we actually

1194
01:08:45,573 --> 01:08:47,453
Speaker 4: are not going to just put our cards down. You

1195
01:08:47,533 --> 01:08:50,173
Speaker 4: take our chips and that's it. We're actually going to

1196
01:08:50,253 --> 01:08:52,213
Speaker 4: make this a fight. We're going to make this because

1197
01:08:52,213 --> 01:08:55,693
Speaker 4: the goal for them they survive, that they win by surviving.

1198
01:08:55,693 --> 01:08:58,653
Speaker 4: As I said earlier, their survival is based on keeping

1199
01:08:58,773 --> 01:09:01,973
Speaker 4: on extending this as long as possible, because you know,

1200
01:09:02,053 --> 01:09:07,853
Speaker 4: because counterintuitively, the way it works out militarily, nukes aside

1201
01:09:08,413 --> 01:09:10,653
Speaker 4: is that we they can last. We can't last anything

1202
01:09:10,733 --> 01:09:13,693
Speaker 4: like as long as they can in terms of lobbing

1203
01:09:13,693 --> 01:09:17,893
Speaker 4: bombs at each other. Uh, And so as long as

1204
01:09:17,933 --> 01:09:21,253
Speaker 4: they can do that, we're in a We're in a

1205
01:09:21,333 --> 01:09:26,093
Speaker 4: tough spot and the world's in a tough spot. So yeah,

1206
01:09:26,133 --> 01:09:28,653
Speaker 4: I think the I think they have they have out

1207
01:09:28,733 --> 01:09:34,373
Speaker 4: forced us, out strategized us, and that is being good

1208
01:09:34,373 --> 01:09:36,533
Speaker 4: for them, and give them some points on that front.

1209
01:09:36,573 --> 01:09:42,733
Speaker 4: But I mean, it's it's really really embarrassing and really,

1210
01:09:43,173 --> 01:09:44,893
Speaker 4: you know, unimpressive.

1211
01:09:45,613 --> 01:09:49,173
Speaker 2: From a man who was a Trump supporter. So what

1212
01:09:49,213 --> 01:09:52,933
Speaker 2: you're doing is being honest and stating that as you

1213
01:09:53,053 --> 01:09:55,773
Speaker 2: as you see it, and I admire.

1214
01:09:55,453 --> 01:09:58,173
Speaker 3: That, well, I appreciate that latter.

1215
01:09:58,213 --> 01:09:59,613
Speaker 2: And you're not even bothered with the fact that I

1216
01:09:59,613 --> 01:10:00,413
Speaker 2: won't speak to you ever.

1217
01:10:00,493 --> 01:10:03,933
Speaker 3: Again, Well, it bothers me, but not that much.

1218
01:10:04,253 --> 01:10:11,053
Speaker 4: So look, if you're if missus producer stuff speaking to me,

1219
01:10:11,093 --> 01:10:14,013
Speaker 4: then that will be more on different level then you also.

1220
01:10:14,933 --> 01:10:21,693
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, now I'm we've overshot a bit. I'm now

1221
01:10:21,733 --> 01:10:25,053
Speaker 2: trying to limit limit my or restrict my interviews to

1222
01:10:25,133 --> 01:10:30,893
Speaker 2: about forty five to fifty minutes, but I make exception

1223
01:10:31,013 --> 01:10:36,933
Speaker 2: for you. I've got one other question on another little matter, sure,

1224
01:10:36,973 --> 01:10:40,973
Speaker 2: because it intrigues me and I get asked this quite

1225
01:10:41,013 --> 01:10:45,013
Speaker 2: a bit now. The battles that are going on in

1226
01:10:45,453 --> 01:10:49,653
Speaker 2: American politics, in Republican politics, the margat battles, if you

1227
01:10:49,773 --> 01:10:52,613
Speaker 2: call them whatever you want, you know to which I refer,

1228
01:10:53,493 --> 01:10:58,533
Speaker 2: and they're ghastly horrible. And the things that people are,

1229
01:10:59,093 --> 01:11:05,213
Speaker 2: things that people who I shall we say, followed in

1230
01:11:05,653 --> 01:11:09,013
Speaker 2: a shallow sort of a way. Who who have I've

1231
01:11:09,093 --> 01:11:15,893
Speaker 2: had respect for just off the planet. The hatred is unbelievable.

1232
01:11:17,373 --> 01:11:18,173
Speaker 2: What's going on?

1233
01:11:21,373 --> 01:11:26,293
Speaker 4: Well, it's some of the negative sides of human nature

1234
01:11:26,293 --> 01:11:27,613
Speaker 4: are on display, aren't they?

1235
01:11:27,693 --> 01:11:28,653
Speaker 3: Just because we know, just.

1236
01:11:28,613 --> 01:11:32,373
Speaker 4: Because people are high profile, successful, well off, whatever, influential,

1237
01:11:32,413 --> 01:11:35,173
Speaker 4: doesn't mean that they aren't buggers when it comes to

1238
01:11:36,213 --> 01:11:37,973
Speaker 4: getting into it with people. And it's definitely, I mean,

1239
01:11:37,973 --> 01:11:42,413
Speaker 4: on both sides of this war, there are prominent people

1240
01:11:42,693 --> 01:11:45,853
Speaker 4: who have been lobbing rhetorical bombs and very personal ones

1241
01:11:46,093 --> 01:11:46,893
Speaker 4: at one another.

1242
01:11:48,293 --> 01:11:50,093
Speaker 3: At this point, I can't don't.

1243
01:11:50,253 --> 01:11:53,053
Speaker 4: I haven't been involved in it, and I've only been

1244
01:11:53,093 --> 01:11:59,973
Speaker 4: a sort of indirect victim.

1245
01:11:57,933 --> 01:11:59,333
Speaker 3: Of some of it more recently.

1246
01:12:00,253 --> 01:12:02,493
Speaker 4: But I got to know who started what, because it

1247
01:12:02,533 --> 01:12:05,173
Speaker 4: depends on which two, four, six, eight people you're talking about.

1248
01:12:05,373 --> 01:12:06,693
Speaker 3: But yeah, really really.

1249
01:12:06,453 --> 01:12:10,253
Speaker 4: Prominent supporters of the president, whether in the media or

1250
01:12:10,333 --> 01:12:14,693
Speaker 4: academia or you know, and social media, podcasts, etcetera.

1251
01:12:14,773 --> 01:12:15,533
Speaker 3: Independent media.

1252
01:12:16,013 --> 01:12:19,773
Speaker 4: I've just been going at one another leather and tongue,

1253
01:12:20,013 --> 01:12:22,013
Speaker 4: you know, since before the war started, and it's just

1254
01:12:22,013 --> 01:12:24,933
Speaker 4: got worse and worse ever since. And we're seeing this,

1255
01:12:25,293 --> 01:12:29,173
Speaker 4: you know, our most recent poll, right, we're really drilled

1256
01:12:29,213 --> 01:12:34,933
Speaker 4: down on Republican voters how they classified themselves and based

1257
01:12:34,973 --> 01:12:38,533
Speaker 4: on that, and how they thought of how they saw

1258
01:12:38,573 --> 01:12:42,613
Speaker 4: the war pose or support. And you know, it's and

1259
01:12:42,613 --> 01:12:47,213
Speaker 4: it's really quite striking because you're your newer Trump voters,

1260
01:12:47,253 --> 01:12:49,413
Speaker 4: the people who came on in twenty four because of

1261
01:12:49,493 --> 01:12:54,733
Speaker 4: Kennedy and gabbartt the younger minority, more working class, more independent,

1262
01:12:55,093 --> 01:12:57,453
Speaker 4: never voted before, either because they were too young or

1263
01:12:57,493 --> 01:13:01,813
Speaker 4: just never thought there's anyone worth voting for. Those folks

1264
01:13:02,133 --> 01:13:06,053
Speaker 4: who made the difference for Trump's picture over Harris, those

1265
01:13:06,053 --> 01:13:08,773
Speaker 4: are the ones who are the most disappointed, not the

1266
01:13:08,773 --> 01:13:10,853
Speaker 4: only ones who disappointed, but they are the most disappointed.

1267
01:13:10,933 --> 01:13:13,333
Speaker 3: And because their political attachment.

1268
01:13:14,373 --> 01:13:16,813
Speaker 4: Was only to Trump, not to the Republican Party, and

1269
01:13:16,853 --> 01:13:19,573
Speaker 4: to Trump it was only one time, they're the ones

1270
01:13:19,653 --> 01:13:22,413
Speaker 4: who are peeling away. They're the ones going to be

1271
01:13:22,453 --> 01:13:24,053
Speaker 4: very hard to get back. They're the ones that may

1272
01:13:24,093 --> 01:13:26,493
Speaker 4: not shop in the midterms, may not shop in three

1273
01:13:26,533 --> 01:13:27,813
Speaker 4: years time for the presidency.

1274
01:13:28,973 --> 01:13:30,173
Speaker 3: You know. It's so it's.

1275
01:13:30,053 --> 01:13:35,973
Speaker 5: Your your older, your boomers, your your your Republican voters

1276
01:13:36,253 --> 01:13:40,173
Speaker 5: who watch you know, legacy television, read the New York Times,

1277
01:13:40,213 --> 01:13:40,893
Speaker 5: watching Post.

1278
01:13:41,333 --> 01:13:46,133
Speaker 4: Those folks are very supportive of this. But the younger

1279
01:13:46,253 --> 01:13:53,213
Speaker 4: and more alternative media consumers, they're the ones who are

1280
01:13:53,293 --> 01:13:58,373
Speaker 4: most opposed on the Republican side. And it's it's a

1281
01:13:58,453 --> 01:14:01,893
Speaker 4: huge problem for the Republicans with just you know, several

1282
01:14:01,933 --> 01:14:03,373
Speaker 4: months until the midterm elections.

1283
01:14:04,413 --> 01:14:08,893
Speaker 2: Indeed, speaking of such things. And finally, you have been

1284
01:14:08,933 --> 01:14:12,173
Speaker 2: in the habit of going to the Middle East in

1285
01:14:12,213 --> 01:14:14,373
Speaker 2: about six months time that time of the year for

1286
01:14:14,453 --> 01:14:18,413
Speaker 2: the last few years. How's it looking for twenty six

1287
01:14:19,733 --> 01:14:20,533
Speaker 2: in terms of going.

1288
01:14:20,733 --> 01:14:25,333
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, if if it's it's it's a it's held.

1289
01:14:25,093 --> 01:14:26,213
Speaker 3: In the thing I go to.

1290
01:14:26,253 --> 01:14:28,973
Speaker 4: The investment conference is held in read in Saudi Arabia,

1291
01:14:30,093 --> 01:14:32,133
Speaker 4: so it'll be I don't at this point, I don't know.

1292
01:14:32,253 --> 01:14:34,693
Speaker 4: We know, we just don't know where things will be.

1293
01:14:34,733 --> 01:14:36,853
Speaker 4: I mean, if if they put it on, I will

1294
01:14:37,733 --> 01:14:38,013
Speaker 4: I will.

1295
01:14:38,053 --> 01:14:40,213
Speaker 3: You know, if they do that, I will go. If

1296
01:14:40,213 --> 01:14:42,653
Speaker 3: they really they really they rebuild it, I will go.

1297
01:14:42,893 --> 01:14:45,293
Speaker 4: And of course it's interesting here because the Saudis have

1298
01:14:45,453 --> 01:14:49,493
Speaker 4: been the Crown Prince has apparently been one of the

1299
01:14:49,493 --> 01:14:52,133
Speaker 4: strongest voices in favor of not only doing this, but

1300
01:14:52,213 --> 01:14:56,733
Speaker 4: of doubling down in Trump's ear since since it kicked off.

1301
01:14:56,773 --> 01:15:01,173
Speaker 4: So it just shows you how successful, for my point

1302
01:15:01,173 --> 01:15:03,773
Speaker 4: of view, perversity, but how successful Trump was in his

1303
01:15:03,853 --> 01:15:05,933
Speaker 4: first term and in his first year of his second

1304
01:15:06,053 --> 01:15:10,573
Speaker 4: term isolating a rand from Golf States and the Kingdoms

1305
01:15:11,373 --> 01:15:15,213
Speaker 4: and getting them more aligned with Israel and further and

1306
01:15:15,253 --> 01:15:18,813
Speaker 4: further away from Iran, which is all good news from

1307
01:15:18,813 --> 01:15:19,573
Speaker 4: my point of view.

1308
01:15:20,293 --> 01:15:22,893
Speaker 2: So there is actually one more thing that I needed

1309
01:15:22,933 --> 01:15:25,933
Speaker 2: to ask you, or I'd be in trouble. The Iranian

1310
01:15:25,933 --> 01:15:31,773
Speaker 2: soccer team in Australia. There was a question about whether

1311
01:15:31,813 --> 01:15:36,053
Speaker 2: they should stay in Australia or not. Trump notified Albanesi

1312
01:15:37,053 --> 01:15:39,853
Speaker 2: that if Australia didn't do it, America would, But he

1313
01:15:39,893 --> 01:15:42,213
Speaker 2: said you should do it, or you must do it

1314
01:15:42,333 --> 01:15:45,053
Speaker 2: or I don't know whether he made any threats. But

1315
01:15:45,813 --> 01:15:49,173
Speaker 2: in the end, and it didn't take long, alban Easy

1316
01:15:49,933 --> 01:15:54,013
Speaker 2: approved it. Now what's happened since, and I'm not giving

1317
01:15:54,013 --> 01:15:58,533
Speaker 2: you this in necessarily the right order, but what's happened

1318
01:15:58,573 --> 01:16:02,293
Speaker 2: since is that the number of them, and I think

1319
01:16:02,293 --> 01:16:06,053
Speaker 2: there were at least nine who were in Sydney, the

1320
01:16:06,133 --> 01:16:08,813
Speaker 2: number of them is now down to two. And by

1321
01:16:08,853 --> 01:16:12,373
Speaker 2: the time that this gets broadcast it may well be nothing.

1322
01:16:12,613 --> 01:16:17,053
Speaker 2: And that's because, well, can you guess why.

1323
01:16:18,293 --> 01:16:21,733
Speaker 4: Well, they hail from a country with a very nasty

1324
01:16:21,773 --> 01:16:26,173
Speaker 4: regime that acts badly towards not just many foreigners but

1325
01:16:26,213 --> 01:16:27,533
Speaker 4: many of its own people.

1326
01:16:27,773 --> 01:16:29,893
Speaker 3: So you know they are there.

1327
01:16:29,973 --> 01:16:34,493
Speaker 4: They are a constant negative externality. They are a cost

1328
01:16:34,933 --> 01:16:38,253
Speaker 4: of this war, in this case inflicted by their own side.

1329
01:16:38,373 --> 01:16:42,053
Speaker 2: Right, So, how could anybody support a government like that?

1330
01:16:42,133 --> 01:16:47,253
Speaker 2: How could anybody think that that administration, which got there

1331
01:16:47,253 --> 01:16:49,373
Speaker 2: by foul means in the first place, should be allowed

1332
01:16:49,373 --> 01:16:50,053
Speaker 2: to continue?

1333
01:16:50,453 --> 01:16:52,533
Speaker 3: Well, it's the old story.

1334
01:16:52,573 --> 01:16:56,853
Speaker 4: You know. If we it's hard for us sometimes it's

1335
01:16:56,853 --> 01:16:58,933
Speaker 4: hard for us to say, my god, how do those

1336
01:16:59,173 --> 01:17:01,373
Speaker 4: Canadians be how can those Canadians be so stupid? Or

1337
01:17:01,413 --> 01:17:03,333
Speaker 4: those New Zealanders, you know, depending on who they do

1338
01:17:03,453 --> 01:17:05,973
Speaker 4: or don't vote for, or whether they protest or not

1339
01:17:06,013 --> 01:17:09,653
Speaker 4: about certain peace of legislation. But we we usually don't

1340
01:17:09,653 --> 01:17:12,773
Speaker 4: even bother to think why it is that people do

1341
01:17:12,933 --> 01:17:16,253
Speaker 4: or don't do things in other countries, particularly countries that

1342
01:17:16,253 --> 01:17:19,933
Speaker 4: are you know, renowned for their repression. You know, most

1343
01:17:20,053 --> 01:17:22,613
Speaker 4: you know, you know most most people didn't say boo

1344
01:17:22,653 --> 01:17:23,413
Speaker 4: in Hitler's Germany.

1345
01:17:23,453 --> 01:17:25,453
Speaker 3: Most people didn't say boo in the Soviet Union.

1346
01:17:26,373 --> 01:17:29,813
Speaker 4: I'm sure far more people keep quiet than say anything

1347
01:17:29,933 --> 01:17:33,773
Speaker 4: in Iran, you know, for for for the same reasons,

1348
01:17:34,573 --> 01:17:38,533
Speaker 4: historical reasons. There's are this thread runs throughout history. But

1349
01:17:39,733 --> 01:17:43,733
Speaker 4: that is that is different the whether the regime is

1350
01:17:43,733 --> 01:17:46,613
Speaker 4: a good one or not. It's totally different, in my view,

1351
01:17:46,613 --> 01:17:50,133
Speaker 4: from what we do about it. The we don't we

1352
01:17:50,133 --> 01:17:53,093
Speaker 4: don't like them. I don't think it. I think history

1353
01:17:53,093 --> 01:17:55,813
Speaker 4: tells us in recent history that it makes no sense.

1354
01:17:55,853 --> 01:17:59,373
Speaker 4: In fact, it's incredibly costly to all of us when

1355
01:17:59,413 --> 01:18:03,893
Speaker 4: we say they're bad, they don't like us. If we can,

1356
01:18:04,453 --> 01:18:08,813
Speaker 4: we should change their government, right because it usually doesn't

1357
01:18:08,853 --> 01:18:11,453
Speaker 4: work out. And one of the many reasons that US

1358
01:18:11,533 --> 01:18:15,973
Speaker 4: doesn't work out is the people themselves aren't either keen

1359
01:18:16,133 --> 01:18:18,493
Speaker 4: on the type of government we think they should have,

1360
01:18:18,773 --> 01:18:21,293
Speaker 4: because we all think they should have governments like our governments.

1361
01:18:22,293 --> 01:18:28,013
Speaker 2: Obviously, well, actually, no, give I'd give them, give them

1362
01:18:28,053 --> 01:18:28,693
Speaker 2: something better.

1363
01:18:29,693 --> 01:18:32,133
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, indeed, right, there's that.

1364
01:18:32,453 --> 01:18:36,813
Speaker 4: And then there's the fact that if your if your country, know, if.

1365
01:18:36,653 --> 01:18:39,333
Speaker 3: America or New Zealand was under attack.

1366
01:18:41,333 --> 01:18:46,693
Speaker 4: From another from another a bad actor, it's unlikely that

1367
01:18:46,813 --> 01:18:48,893
Speaker 4: most of us, no matter what we thought of our

1368
01:18:48,973 --> 01:18:53,453
Speaker 4: current leadership, would say, my god, yes, you know, come

1369
01:18:53,493 --> 01:18:54,413
Speaker 4: here liberatus.

1370
01:18:54,413 --> 01:18:56,893
Speaker 3: You know, it's just not how right or wrong.

1371
01:18:56,933 --> 01:19:00,373
Speaker 4: It's just not how human beings respond to being blown up. Right,

1372
01:19:00,413 --> 01:19:02,453
Speaker 4: It's just it just doesn't. It just doesn't play out

1373
01:19:02,493 --> 01:19:05,653
Speaker 4: that way, you know, almost all of the time. And

1374
01:19:05,693 --> 01:19:08,613
Speaker 4: when you get to the the you know, whether there

1375
01:19:08,653 --> 01:19:12,133
Speaker 4: were murmurs straight away that the Iranians you know, shouldn't

1376
01:19:12,133 --> 01:19:14,933
Speaker 4: be at the World Cup, and whether they would want

1377
01:19:14,973 --> 01:19:15,533
Speaker 4: to be there, all this.

1378
01:19:15,573 --> 01:19:16,093
Speaker 3: Sort of thing.

1379
01:19:16,493 --> 01:19:20,373
Speaker 4: And I mean, my big picture response on this surprise

1380
01:19:20,413 --> 01:19:23,453
Speaker 4: to you or not late in is I'm completely against

1381
01:19:23,493 --> 01:19:26,973
Speaker 4: any of this use of politics when it comes to sports.

1382
01:19:26,973 --> 01:19:30,133
Speaker 4: I'm against the anti racism campaigns, not because I'm pro racism,

1383
01:19:30,253 --> 01:19:32,173
Speaker 4: because I don't think it has a place. I think

1384
01:19:32,213 --> 01:19:35,373
Speaker 4: it starts, it gets very difficult, it makes all kinds

1385
01:19:35,413 --> 01:19:41,173
Speaker 4: of problems. And so the day that the Russians invaded Ukraine,

1386
01:19:41,573 --> 01:19:44,733
Speaker 4: I wrote a piece for the Epoch Times arguing against

1387
01:19:44,813 --> 01:19:47,813
Speaker 4: the bands on Russian players in the National Hockey League

1388
01:19:47,813 --> 01:19:51,413
Speaker 4: and you know, making Chelsea's Russian owners sell the club

1389
01:19:51,453 --> 01:19:54,653
Speaker 4: and all this kind of thing, because what it only

1390
01:19:54,693 --> 01:19:57,293
Speaker 4: does it make a mess of everything, But what it

1391
01:19:57,333 --> 01:20:01,933
Speaker 4: always demonstrates historically is how unbelievably hypocritical we are, what

1392
01:20:02,053 --> 01:20:05,453
Speaker 4: double standards we have, because we always employ these heavy

1393
01:20:05,453 --> 01:20:09,853
Speaker 4: handed tactics on athletics and sports and general when they

1394
01:20:09,893 --> 01:20:13,333
Speaker 4: suit us, and other times it's fine, we just ignore

1395
01:20:13,333 --> 01:20:15,653
Speaker 4: it completely. You know, we have Olympic Games in Beijing.

1396
01:20:16,533 --> 01:20:19,293
Speaker 4: That's fine because for one reason or another we don't

1397
01:20:19,333 --> 01:20:21,853
Speaker 4: like to talk about We think we're better off for that.

1398
01:20:22,253 --> 01:20:23,013
Speaker 3: But you know, we.

1399
01:20:22,973 --> 01:20:25,773
Speaker 4: Can't do this here or that there, or they can't participate,

1400
01:20:26,093 --> 01:20:29,693
Speaker 4: and it's really arbitrary and it's really naked crude politics,

1401
01:20:29,693 --> 01:20:31,973
Speaker 4: and I don't think it neither serves us well, nor

1402
01:20:31,973 --> 01:20:33,093
Speaker 4: does it look good on us?

1403
01:20:33,573 --> 01:20:39,053
Speaker 2: Patrick Well said, appreciate it again and thank you, thank you, Ladon.

1404
01:20:54,733 --> 01:20:57,253
Speaker 2: I went to the mail room for number three hundred

1405
01:20:57,293 --> 01:21:00,013
Speaker 2: and twenty with missus producer. Good morning, hi Layton, how

1406
01:21:00,013 --> 01:21:03,813
Speaker 2: are you or good evening wherever you are. I'm very well,

1407
01:21:03,893 --> 01:21:06,133
Speaker 2: thank you. In fact, after a very good night's sleep,

1408
01:21:06,133 --> 01:21:10,013
Speaker 2: I feel even even better. It's the morning of podcasts

1409
01:21:10,053 --> 01:21:14,293
Speaker 2: released number three hundred and twenty. You're an example of

1410
01:21:14,293 --> 01:21:15,813
Speaker 2: how how quickly time flies.

1411
01:21:16,453 --> 01:21:18,013
Speaker 6: I don't need an example.

1412
01:21:17,773 --> 01:21:20,453
Speaker 2: I'll give it to you. Do you remember this is

1413
01:21:20,493 --> 01:21:23,133
Speaker 2: three twenty. Do you remember when we got to three hundred?

1414
01:21:23,693 --> 01:21:27,573
Speaker 2: You go, wow? Who who would have thought? Well? That

1415
01:21:27,773 --> 01:21:33,013
Speaker 2: was if you want twenty podcasts available? Podcast back. But

1416
01:21:33,053 --> 01:21:35,973
Speaker 2: it's been longer than that because we haven't been you know,

1417
01:21:36,013 --> 01:21:38,973
Speaker 2: that was during the summer period and what have you.

1418
01:21:39,453 --> 01:21:44,613
Speaker 2: But nevertheless, it's it's just flashing by. I'm sure as

1419
01:21:44,613 --> 01:21:48,093
Speaker 2: I'm sure President Trump is finding Yes, now, why don't

1420
01:21:48,133 --> 01:21:48,373
Speaker 2: you lead?

1421
01:21:49,253 --> 01:21:54,133
Speaker 6: Laydon Dennis has written to you about the COVID inquiry.

1422
01:21:54,293 --> 01:21:58,253
Speaker 6: He says the COVID Inquirer should raise serious questions about

1423
01:21:58,293 --> 01:22:02,733
Speaker 6: Chris Hipkins leadership. So he starts by saying before you

1424
01:22:02,813 --> 01:22:05,653
Speaker 6: read the report below, I feel it important for you

1425
01:22:05,693 --> 01:22:08,213
Speaker 6: to read my submission to the Commission that, like other

1426
01:22:08,533 --> 01:22:09,213
Speaker 6: were ignored.

1427
01:22:10,133 --> 01:22:11,693
Speaker 2: It is particularly.

1428
01:22:11,133 --> 01:22:14,213
Speaker 6: Galling to know about a huge amount of overseas research

1429
01:22:14,333 --> 01:22:17,293
Speaker 6: that highlights the damage the jabs have done that.

1430
01:22:17,333 --> 01:22:18,333
Speaker 2: We are ignoring.

1431
01:22:18,493 --> 01:22:22,053
Speaker 6: Even though I had forwarded this to many MPs, I

1432
01:22:22,133 --> 01:22:26,293
Speaker 6: understand acc have paid out millions to JAB injured people.

1433
01:22:27,293 --> 01:22:30,933
Speaker 6: As a retired pharmacist, I became aware in twenty twenty

1434
01:22:30,973 --> 01:22:34,933
Speaker 6: one of a significant number of overseas medical experts who

1435
01:22:34,973 --> 01:22:39,373
Speaker 6: were questioning the safety and efficacy of the jabs. Remember

1436
01:22:39,413 --> 01:22:42,573
Speaker 6: it is important to understand these jabs of gene therapy

1437
01:22:42,733 --> 01:22:46,893
Speaker 6: and not like traditional vaccines, so using the term vaccine

1438
01:22:46,893 --> 01:22:51,253
Speaker 6: to describe them as misleading. Concerned with what I was discovering,

1439
01:22:51,293 --> 01:22:54,533
Speaker 6: I immediately set about to send details of opinions and

1440
01:22:54,653 --> 01:22:57,973
Speaker 6: research to a number of members of Parliament, but sadly

1441
01:22:58,093 --> 01:23:03,813
Speaker 6: just a handful personally acknowledged my efforts. The extensive information

1442
01:23:03,973 --> 01:23:09,773
Speaker 6: I submitted continues to today and includes significance scientific articles

1443
01:23:10,013 --> 01:23:14,573
Speaker 6: and expert opinions. It is concerning to me that publicly

1444
01:23:14,613 --> 01:23:17,573
Speaker 6: there was little or no debate, and all we heard

1445
01:23:17,573 --> 01:23:21,253
Speaker 6: from the government and most media outlets that the jabs

1446
01:23:21,293 --> 01:23:24,893
Speaker 6: were safe and effective. Debate and review of information is

1447
01:23:24,933 --> 01:23:28,693
Speaker 6: a critical part of scientific research. The fact that the

1448
01:23:28,733 --> 01:23:32,733
Speaker 6: Pfizer contract details were not made public was also of concern,

1449
01:23:33,693 --> 01:23:37,333
Speaker 6: especially as I believe under the emergency use only conditioned

1450
01:23:37,533 --> 01:23:43,253
Speaker 6: conditions that were applied, alternative therapies like immune boosting products

1451
01:23:43,293 --> 01:23:47,213
Speaker 6: and ivermectin were not allowed to be talked about. A

1452
01:23:47,253 --> 01:23:49,893
Speaker 6: couple of years ago, I read Robert Kennedy Junior's book

1453
01:23:49,933 --> 01:23:53,733
Speaker 6: The Real Anthony Fautschi and the Likelihood that the virus

1454
01:23:53,773 --> 01:23:57,733
Speaker 6: came from gain of function research in the Wuhan Laboratory

1455
01:23:57,773 --> 01:24:00,613
Speaker 6: with funding coming from the USA, where this research had

1456
01:24:00,693 --> 01:24:04,493
Speaker 6: been outlawed for very ethical reasons. It has been very

1457
01:24:04,493 --> 01:24:08,053
Speaker 6: clear that authorities and politicians are refusing to take a

1458
01:24:08,053 --> 01:24:12,093
Speaker 6: seat serious look at the adverse effects of acting many people.

1459
01:24:12,573 --> 01:24:15,373
Speaker 6: It is noteworthy that in the UK the government has

1460
01:24:15,373 --> 01:24:18,693
Speaker 6: paid up to one hundred thousand pounds to some JAB

1461
01:24:18,733 --> 01:24:22,733
Speaker 6: injured people. I am sadden that it seems authorities and

1462
01:24:22,773 --> 01:24:25,413
Speaker 6: politicians and the media are trying to cover up what

1463
01:24:25,573 --> 01:24:29,013
Speaker 6: I believe has been a very significant failure to do

1464
01:24:29,093 --> 01:24:32,773
Speaker 6: the right thing. Unlike the way the Swedish government approached

1465
01:24:32,813 --> 01:24:36,693
Speaker 6: the problem. Continuing to cover this up is a real

1466
01:24:36,773 --> 01:24:40,533
Speaker 6: travesty of justice and I sincerely hope that those responsible

1467
01:24:40,573 --> 01:24:43,413
Speaker 6: will be held accountable and they will be forced to

1468
01:24:43,453 --> 01:24:47,173
Speaker 6: reveal any behind the scenes money they received as incentives.

1469
01:24:47,573 --> 01:24:49,853
Speaker 6: And that's from Dennis, retired pharmacist.

1470
01:24:50,133 --> 01:24:55,893
Speaker 2: Dennis. That was brilliant actually, and while Carolyn was reading that,

1471
01:24:56,173 --> 01:24:59,133
Speaker 2: I was sitting looking at a headline from the Epic Times.

1472
01:24:59,733 --> 01:25:05,133
Speaker 2: Inquiry praises Adirn's COVID response that would be the biggest

1473
01:25:05,253 --> 01:25:07,533
Speaker 2: joke of the century. And then it goes on and

1474
01:25:07,533 --> 01:25:11,653
Speaker 2: says whilst out again, Inquiry praises and Dern's COVID response,

1475
01:25:12,173 --> 01:25:16,413
Speaker 2: but says New Zealand is still bruised and divided. What

1476
01:25:16,573 --> 01:25:23,453
Speaker 2: a cop out, and that's why inquiries not infrequently useless.

1477
01:25:24,493 --> 01:25:27,453
Speaker 2: There was a There is a cowardice amongst people who

1478
01:25:27,493 --> 01:25:33,613
Speaker 2: sit on their on their benches, I think in many cases. Anyway, now,

1479
01:25:33,653 --> 01:25:39,013
Speaker 2: Claire Rights, your interview with Robert McCulloch was enlightening. The

1480
01:25:39,053 --> 01:25:41,973
Speaker 2: New Zealand Constitution is not worth the paper it isn't

1481
01:25:42,013 --> 01:25:45,773
Speaker 2: printed on. It's much like the Red Queen and says

1482
01:25:46,213 --> 01:25:49,013
Speaker 2: it could mean anything that you wanted to mean. What

1483
01:25:49,173 --> 01:25:52,693
Speaker 2: He's announced recently that it was closing several frozen food factories.

1484
01:25:52,773 --> 01:25:55,773
Speaker 2: One reason cited was high compliance costs in New Zealand.

1485
01:25:56,053 --> 01:26:00,013
Speaker 2: Not said was our high minimum wage, which can be

1486
01:26:00,093 --> 01:26:04,013
Speaker 2: crippling for companies, and also the many holidays and sick days.

1487
01:26:04,053 --> 01:26:07,773
Speaker 2: Here I go along with the latter. Certainly, several years

1488
01:26:07,813 --> 01:26:10,493
Speaker 2: ago a friend with a small business said he had

1489
01:26:10,493 --> 01:26:14,613
Speaker 2: to pay his workers for about forty days before they

1490
01:26:14,613 --> 01:26:18,293
Speaker 2: earned him a cent. And that was before Matta riki,

1491
01:26:18,973 --> 01:26:22,573
Speaker 2: which I'm in favor of. But only if another holiday

1492
01:26:22,653 --> 01:26:26,173
Speaker 2: such as the King's Birthday is removed, more and more

1493
01:26:26,213 --> 01:26:29,213
Speaker 2: businesses will close in the years ahead, pushing more and

1494
01:26:29,333 --> 01:26:33,933
Speaker 2: more bright kiwis off shore did. When was the last

1495
01:26:33,973 --> 01:26:39,773
Speaker 2: time that there was a comparison drawn study, a comparison

1496
01:26:39,853 --> 01:26:47,733
Speaker 2: study between New Zealand and Australia and incomes wages, how

1497
01:26:47,813 --> 01:26:50,493
Speaker 2: things work in this regard and why one is better

1498
01:26:50,533 --> 01:26:53,093
Speaker 2: than the other. Mind you, they're not doing quite so

1499
01:26:53,173 --> 01:26:56,013
Speaker 2: flashly at the moment, Claire, thank you appreciated.

1500
01:26:57,173 --> 01:27:01,453
Speaker 6: Layton Colin says he starts actually with a quote, and

1501
01:27:01,493 --> 01:27:04,173
Speaker 6: the quote is you can crucify freedom, but the human

1502
01:27:04,293 --> 01:27:09,213
Speaker 6: soul knows no shackles. These words, says Co addressed to

1503
01:27:09,253 --> 01:27:13,773
Speaker 6: the Soviet socialist elite, accurately described the absence of fundamental

1504
01:27:13,813 --> 01:27:17,013
Speaker 6: freedoms for people living in the nineteen seventies. In the

1505
01:27:17,133 --> 01:27:23,653
Speaker 6: USSR Union of Soviet Socialist Republics protest artists, Julian Oleg

1506
01:27:23,813 --> 01:27:26,893
Speaker 6: wrote these words on a public building in Leningrad in

1507
01:27:27,013 --> 01:27:31,533
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy five, and saying this truth contributed to each

1508
01:27:31,613 --> 01:27:35,533
Speaker 6: writer receiving prison terms of over five years in labor camps.

1509
01:27:36,573 --> 01:27:39,293
Speaker 6: In twenty twenty six, as we prepare to vote in

1510
01:27:39,333 --> 01:27:42,453
Speaker 6: our general election, let's embrace the fact we live in

1511
01:27:42,493 --> 01:27:46,333
Speaker 6: a Western democracy. We are not under the autocratic rule

1512
01:27:46,373 --> 01:27:48,973
Speaker 6: of a socialist elite as the USSR was in the

1513
01:27:49,053 --> 01:27:53,253
Speaker 6: nineteen seventies. In New Zealand, our style of democracy gives

1514
01:27:53,333 --> 01:27:56,813
Speaker 6: us the best opportunity of any political system to use

1515
01:27:56,813 --> 01:27:59,453
Speaker 6: our freedom to express our human soul.

1516
01:28:00,533 --> 01:28:04,773
Speaker 2: Beautifully written, who was that, Colin? Colin? I sort of

1517
01:28:04,813 --> 01:28:07,133
Speaker 2: found myself saying no, I don't quite agree with that

1518
01:28:07,573 --> 01:28:10,133
Speaker 2: A couple of times through there, For instance, can you

1519
01:28:10,173 --> 01:28:12,213
Speaker 2: read the bit about the last bit?

1520
01:28:12,253 --> 01:28:12,493
Speaker 3: Again?

1521
01:28:12,813 --> 01:28:13,573
Speaker 2: I do agree.

1522
01:28:13,613 --> 01:28:16,853
Speaker 6: In New Zealand our style of democracy, our style of

1523
01:28:16,893 --> 01:28:20,813
Speaker 6: democracy gives us the best opportunity of any political system

1524
01:28:21,333 --> 01:28:23,933
Speaker 6: to use our freedom to express our human soul.

1525
01:28:24,173 --> 01:28:30,853
Speaker 2: Okay, so where was that during the lockdown? That's my point.

1526
01:28:31,373 --> 01:28:34,373
Speaker 2: It comes with limits, or it comes with it comes

1527
01:28:34,373 --> 01:28:34,933
Speaker 2: with abuse.

1528
01:28:35,253 --> 01:28:40,133
Speaker 6: Well, Colin does say the best opportunity, Well not every opportunity.

1529
01:28:40,173 --> 01:28:42,933
Speaker 2: Okay, there's room for improvement, and I think we all

1530
01:28:42,973 --> 01:28:46,213
Speaker 2: know that, don't we. Very interesting discussion, Thanks Layton. With

1531
01:28:46,853 --> 01:28:51,453
Speaker 2: Robert McCulloch writes, Noel, I still struggle with the AML

1532
01:28:51,893 --> 01:28:57,253
Speaker 2: impositions on innocent citizens while gangs etc. Continue to well

1533
01:28:57,333 --> 01:29:01,773
Speaker 2: continue with the illegal drug trade. I think Robert may

1534
01:29:01,773 --> 01:29:04,373
Speaker 2: have misunderstood your question about who was responsible for the

1535
01:29:04,413 --> 01:29:08,813
Speaker 2: sudden emphasis on banks providing cash facilities because his response

1536
01:29:08,853 --> 01:29:13,773
Speaker 2: related to digital currency. While I accept there are downsides

1537
01:29:13,853 --> 01:29:18,613
Speaker 2: with a digital currency, there could be some benefits if

1538
01:29:18,613 --> 01:29:22,373
Speaker 2: it could be used in conjunction with retaining separate bank accounts.

1539
01:29:22,773 --> 01:29:26,373
Speaker 2: As I recall, Robert talked about the ABNZ check accounts,

1540
01:29:26,813 --> 01:29:32,813
Speaker 2: whereas my interest is in savings accounts. During the COVID era,

1541
01:29:33,853 --> 01:29:36,933
Speaker 2: Reserve Bank of New Zealand was paying interest on funds

1542
01:29:36,933 --> 01:29:40,733
Speaker 2: that banks lodged with the RBNZ, as well as offering

1543
01:29:40,853 --> 01:29:45,973
Speaker 2: low interest borrowing facilities. According to Dr Google, they still

1544
01:29:46,013 --> 01:29:49,813
Speaker 2: pay the OCR on deposits the big banks make That

1545
01:29:49,933 --> 01:29:52,813
Speaker 2: is way better than us me immortals can get for

1546
01:29:52,893 --> 01:29:56,013
Speaker 2: on call deposits with the banks. Kiwibank is probably the

1547
01:29:56,053 --> 01:29:59,293
Speaker 2: best of the major safe banks at one point five percent,

1548
01:30:00,213 --> 01:30:03,533
Speaker 2: but well short of the ocr's two point twenty five percent.

1549
01:30:05,013 --> 01:30:08,533
Speaker 2: You've got me confused with the kiwibank and one point

1550
01:30:09,573 --> 01:30:12,133
Speaker 2: I'm getting a massive one point eight at the moment

1551
01:30:12,613 --> 01:30:16,493
Speaker 2: on a term deposit one point eight Who would have thought,

1552
01:30:16,933 --> 01:30:21,213
Speaker 2: anyway if the RBNZ digital account gave us the same

1553
01:30:21,253 --> 01:30:25,613
Speaker 2: facilities as they provided the big banks, including on call

1554
01:30:25,693 --> 01:30:29,293
Speaker 2: savings accounts, it would be worthwhile if we could choose

1555
01:30:29,293 --> 01:30:33,213
Speaker 2: the facilities we want without being committed to use RBNZ

1556
01:30:33,413 --> 01:30:37,133
Speaker 2: for everything. Go along with that. To illustrate the concept

1557
01:30:37,293 --> 01:30:40,413
Speaker 2: at present, I use Kiwi Bank for most on call

1558
01:30:40,453 --> 01:30:44,653
Speaker 2: savings and then transfer the funds to Westpac to make payments.

1559
01:30:45,253 --> 01:30:48,613
Speaker 2: I might be a bit short in information, but I

1560
01:30:48,653 --> 01:30:51,933
Speaker 2: don't quite get the purpose of that. Noel, if you

1561
01:30:51,933 --> 01:30:58,253
Speaker 2: feel like it, give me more and missus producer, would

1562
01:30:58,293 --> 01:31:02,133
Speaker 2: you like to have a look at that one?

1563
01:31:02,773 --> 01:31:06,013
Speaker 6: Malcolm says, We so look forward to Wednesdays and your

1564
01:31:06,053 --> 01:31:10,013
Speaker 6: excellent podcasts. Really enjoy listening to tonight's guest and would

1565
01:31:10,013 --> 01:31:13,813
Speaker 6: love to know what as an economist, Professor Robert thinks

1566
01:31:13,853 --> 01:31:17,533
Speaker 6: about government's printing money. To me, it is theft from

1567
01:31:17,573 --> 01:31:19,813
Speaker 6: hardworking folk who have money in the bank as it

1568
01:31:19,853 --> 01:31:22,813
Speaker 6: waters its value down. It should be illegal, as I'm

1569
01:31:22,893 --> 01:31:24,813
Speaker 6: damn sure I'd be put in jail if I did it.

1570
01:31:25,413 --> 01:31:28,373
Speaker 6: I understand Grant Robertson printed millions of dollars when he

1571
01:31:28,413 --> 01:31:31,893
Speaker 6: was Minister of Finance. I wonder if this coalition does

1572
01:31:31,933 --> 01:31:36,173
Speaker 6: it too. Thank you again for your wonderful podcasts. That's

1573
01:31:36,173 --> 01:31:36,773
Speaker 6: from Malcolm.

1574
01:31:36,813 --> 01:31:40,053
Speaker 2: Malcolm, very nice of you. That's been happening for a

1575
01:31:40,093 --> 01:31:43,293
Speaker 2: long time. Of course, not a lot has changed, except

1576
01:31:43,373 --> 01:31:47,773
Speaker 2: the extent to which some governments extend themselves or to themselves.

1577
01:31:47,853 --> 01:31:54,013
Speaker 2: Even and finally, when Robert McCulloch said that national and

1578
01:31:54,093 --> 01:31:56,893
Speaker 2: labor are full of chums, I cast my mind back

1579
01:31:56,933 --> 01:31:59,653
Speaker 2: to May last year when he decided to shut down

1580
01:31:59,733 --> 01:32:03,613
Speaker 2: his earth Kiwi blog due to threats from National Labor

1581
01:32:03,733 --> 01:32:06,973
Speaker 2: and big business New Zealand Incorporated, such as big bank,

1582
01:32:07,053 --> 01:32:10,653
Speaker 2: supermarkets and building firm I Reckon. The pressure was so

1583
01:32:10,733 --> 01:32:14,253
Speaker 2: intense that it probably caused occasional wobbles in the way

1584
01:32:14,293 --> 01:32:17,573
Speaker 2: he carried himself. What I do like about Robert McCulloch

1585
01:32:17,773 --> 01:32:20,373
Speaker 2: is that he speaks his mind and he doesn't care

1586
01:32:20,453 --> 01:32:24,093
Speaker 2: who might be offended, whether the left or the right.

1587
01:32:24,613 --> 01:32:27,053
Speaker 2: It's part of the process in seeking truths, and I

1588
01:32:27,093 --> 01:32:29,853
Speaker 2: agree with that completely. There is a bit of an

1589
01:32:29,893 --> 01:32:33,293
Speaker 2: ideological civil war for truce going on in the center

1590
01:32:33,373 --> 01:32:37,933
Speaker 2: right lately with prominent figures and raised I raised this

1591
01:32:38,453 --> 01:32:42,013
Speaker 2: in the discussion today, of course, with Patrick, with prominent

1592
01:32:42,053 --> 01:32:46,373
Speaker 2: figures like Ben Shapiro, Douglas, Murray Tucker, Carlson, Candas Owens,

1593
01:32:46,453 --> 01:32:52,413
Speaker 2: and Megan Kelly, all verbally sparring, vehemently, high conviction. Robust

1594
01:32:52,453 --> 01:32:55,733
Speaker 2: debates are healthy because out of the ashes of the

1595
01:32:55,813 --> 01:32:59,853
Speaker 2: debates emerges the real truth. Well sometimes, but they just

1596
01:33:00,013 --> 01:33:03,653
Speaker 2: need to be careful not to inadvertently turn into new

1597
01:33:03,733 --> 01:33:09,133
Speaker 2: leftists by employing leftist tactics such as the platform, hate speech,

1598
01:33:09,413 --> 01:33:13,413
Speaker 2: and the suppression of truth. When truth is surrounded by lies,

1599
01:33:14,093 --> 01:33:17,133
Speaker 2: we need to fight real hard to get to it.

1600
01:33:17,853 --> 01:33:21,573
Speaker 2: Roll on election promises, you know, going back to that

1601
01:33:21,653 --> 01:33:28,253
Speaker 2: list Missus producer, Ben Shapiro, Douglas Murray, Tucker, Carlson, Candace Owens,

1602
01:33:28,373 --> 01:33:31,733
Speaker 2: Meghan Kelly. Megan Kelly was the I'd have to say,

1603
01:33:31,853 --> 01:33:34,253
Speaker 2: was the least of them to me, because she was

1604
01:33:35,813 --> 01:33:37,773
Speaker 2: I don't know, she wasn't she wasn't really there all

1605
01:33:37,773 --> 01:33:42,773
Speaker 2: the time. But they're all they've all been sparring, they've

1606
01:33:42,813 --> 01:33:47,253
Speaker 2: all been pitching about each other, and they're all being

1607
01:33:47,493 --> 01:33:51,013
Speaker 2: unkind about each other. To put it politely, this producer

1608
01:33:51,053 --> 01:33:54,813
Speaker 2: gets a bit offended if I use some language. And

1609
01:33:57,053 --> 01:33:59,693
Speaker 2: I have to say, the only ones that I still

1610
01:33:59,693 --> 01:34:03,853
Speaker 2: have any faith in Ben Shapiro, Douglas Murray, full stop,

1611
01:34:04,053 --> 01:34:06,773
Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson when he was on Fox, I thought was great.

1612
01:34:07,573 --> 01:34:11,173
Speaker 2: I think it's I think he's gone slightly crazy. Slightly

1613
01:34:11,253 --> 01:34:16,453
Speaker 2: might be an understatement. And Megan Kelly and Candace are ones.

1614
01:34:16,973 --> 01:34:21,253
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I mean when she was declined entry into

1615
01:34:21,253 --> 01:34:23,213
Speaker 2: New Zealand, she was, wasn't she and it was canceled,

1616
01:34:23,453 --> 01:34:26,533
Speaker 2: her visit was canceled. I was not paying a great

1617
01:34:26,573 --> 01:34:29,013
Speaker 2: deal of attention to her, and I thought, well, that's

1618
01:34:29,013 --> 01:34:32,693
Speaker 2: a bit rough. Spent a bit of time listening to

1619
01:34:32,773 --> 01:34:34,693
Speaker 2: her these days, and you think maybe it was a

1620
01:34:34,693 --> 01:34:38,933
Speaker 2: good thing. Nevertheless, free speech is free speech versus producer.

1621
01:34:38,973 --> 01:34:42,613
Speaker 2: Thank you, Layton, thank you for yours. Thank you, and

1622
01:34:42,653 --> 01:34:55,293
Speaker 2: we'll see you next week. Layton Smith to conclude podcasts

1623
01:34:55,293 --> 01:34:57,693
Speaker 2: three hundred and twenty. I said at the beginning that

1624
01:34:57,733 --> 01:35:01,813
Speaker 2: I was going to add some further on the war,

1625
01:35:02,853 --> 01:35:05,333
Speaker 2: and there are two things to bring together. One is

1626
01:35:05,333 --> 01:35:08,613
Speaker 2: that I asked Patrick yesterday a question about new clear

1627
01:35:08,653 --> 01:35:10,973
Speaker 2: device and whether that could put paid to the war

1628
01:35:11,293 --> 01:35:13,973
Speaker 2: once and for all. Would it happen or is it likely?

1629
01:35:14,333 --> 01:35:17,413
Speaker 2: And he gave us a good answer. Then I was

1630
01:35:17,853 --> 01:35:21,213
Speaker 2: looking for something else when I came across in my

1631
01:35:21,373 --> 01:35:26,693
Speaker 2: list on the computer, I came across Martin Armstrong's site,

1632
01:35:26,893 --> 01:35:30,453
Speaker 2: and as I do on occasions, I had a good

1633
01:35:30,453 --> 01:35:32,613
Speaker 2: look at it because I hadn't seen it for I

1634
01:35:32,613 --> 01:35:35,573
Speaker 2: don't know, a couple of weeks. And out of that

1635
01:35:35,693 --> 01:35:39,813
Speaker 2: came something that I thought was very interesting, starting with

1636
01:35:40,413 --> 01:35:43,933
Speaker 2: the fact that the headline was Iran's war tactics and

1637
01:35:44,053 --> 01:35:47,013
Speaker 2: risk of nuclear war. So what I want to do is,

1638
01:35:47,493 --> 01:35:52,173
Speaker 2: because he answers questions on a daily basis for his client,

1639
01:35:52,213 --> 01:35:55,893
Speaker 2: tele is quote you this question and then have a

1640
01:35:56,533 --> 01:36:00,013
Speaker 2: look at it, and I probably should edit it, but

1641
01:36:00,093 --> 01:36:03,893
Speaker 2: I'll just read it as it all is. Question is well,

1642
01:36:04,013 --> 01:36:06,853
Speaker 2: it looks like David Sachs has publicly stated that there

1643
01:36:06,893 --> 01:36:09,693
Speaker 2: can be nuclear war if Israel runs out of AMMO

1644
01:36:10,253 --> 01:36:13,293
Speaker 2: and is on the verge of being defeated. You warned

1645
01:36:13,333 --> 01:36:17,293
Speaker 2: about this. You have not commented on whether Netunya, who

1646
01:36:17,333 --> 01:36:20,333
Speaker 2: is dead, or if Iran has sunk an American destroyer.

1647
01:36:21,013 --> 01:36:24,573
Speaker 2: The supreme leader they killed had agreed no nuclear weapon

1648
01:36:24,973 --> 01:36:29,093
Speaker 2: and said that was against his religion, which is bes

1649
01:36:29,213 --> 01:36:33,453
Speaker 2: of course, it seems Netnya, who is the dark evil

1650
01:36:33,773 --> 01:36:37,533
Speaker 2: in the mix, who is intentionally leading the world into

1651
01:36:37,653 --> 01:36:42,213
Speaker 2: the end times, nobody has contacts like you, nor are

1652
01:36:42,253 --> 01:36:46,653
Speaker 2: they as objective. Would you address these questions? Signed Frank T.

1653
01:36:47,973 --> 01:36:51,013
Speaker 2: And here is some Armstrong's answer. There is no question

1654
01:36:51,053 --> 01:36:55,573
Speaker 2: that Ai is complicating everything. I do not believe Nettnya,

1655
01:36:55,653 --> 01:36:57,933
Speaker 2: who is dead. I've said he's a very dark soul

1656
01:36:58,013 --> 01:37:01,373
Speaker 2: and a staunch neocon who wants the destruction of Iran.

1657
01:37:01,453 --> 01:37:05,773
Speaker 2: No matter what, there is no way Israel would admit

1658
01:37:05,973 --> 01:37:09,813
Speaker 2: that Netnya who is dead publicly or that would create panic,

1659
01:37:10,173 --> 01:37:12,973
Speaker 2: to say the least. The same is true about Iran

1660
01:37:13,053 --> 01:37:15,253
Speaker 2: reporting that they didn't sink A destroyed. There's no way

1661
01:37:15,293 --> 01:37:19,013
Speaker 2: that the Pentagon will publicly admit to that. Either we

1662
01:37:19,133 --> 01:37:23,373
Speaker 2: know that Iran has amassed a major stockpile of ballistic

1663
01:37:23,453 --> 01:37:27,213
Speaker 2: missiles and drones, and they would use them to overwhelm

1664
01:37:27,253 --> 01:37:30,773
Speaker 2: the Israeli defense, pushing them to the point that they

1665
01:37:30,813 --> 01:37:35,053
Speaker 2: are running out of interceptors. They can inflict massive economic

1666
01:37:35,133 --> 01:37:37,853
Speaker 2: losses on Israel and strike at the very heart of

1667
01:37:37,893 --> 01:37:42,173
Speaker 2: their morale. Let's make one thing. Let's make one thing clear.

1668
01:37:42,893 --> 01:37:46,133
Speaker 2: The neocons in league with NETTNYA, who have pushed Trump

1669
01:37:46,133 --> 01:37:49,013
Speaker 2: into this war with the promise it will be short

1670
01:37:49,053 --> 01:37:53,933
Speaker 2: and sweet. It it's always the same scenario. Even look

1671
01:37:53,973 --> 01:37:57,453
Speaker 2: at Vietnam. President Lyndon B. Johnson was not told the

1672
01:37:57,493 --> 01:38:00,213
Speaker 2: war would be brief. When he committed the first ground

1673
01:38:00,253 --> 01:38:03,373
Speaker 2: troops in nineteen sixty five, he stated the initial deployment

1674
01:38:03,413 --> 01:38:08,093
Speaker 2: would last only about six months. There was zero planning

1675
01:38:08,173 --> 01:38:11,533
Speaker 2: for the closing of the Strait of Hillmus. Of course,

1676
01:38:11,613 --> 01:38:14,213
Speaker 2: they knew this would be a choke point. The problem

1677
01:38:14,293 --> 01:38:16,533
Speaker 2: is that they assumed that they would score an easy,

1678
01:38:16,573 --> 01:38:20,653
Speaker 2: fast victory. Granted, they struck some seven thousand targets and

1679
01:38:20,693 --> 01:38:27,013
Speaker 2: have degraded Iran's conventional capabilities. However, a single terrorist with

1680
01:38:27,133 --> 01:38:30,853
Speaker 2: a shoulder mounted missile can take out a ship. Iran

1681
01:38:30,893 --> 01:38:34,453
Speaker 2: has been reduced to missile Iran has been reduced to

1682
01:38:34,493 --> 01:38:41,253
Speaker 2: missile warfare, terrorism, activating terrorist cells, and cyber warfare. Even

1683
01:38:41,293 --> 01:38:45,093
Speaker 2: with Iraq taking down the leadership did not end the war.

1684
01:38:45,533 --> 01:38:49,613
Speaker 2: General Jack Keane WARN's US cannot secure straits of her

1685
01:38:49,693 --> 01:38:55,213
Speaker 2: moves alone as Iran tension surge. While President Trump wants

1686
01:38:55,293 --> 01:38:58,733
Speaker 2: NATO allies to join the fight to keep the straight open,

1687
01:38:58,973 --> 01:39:04,333
Speaker 2: mostly rejecting his call like Australia, I'll move on, Secretary

1688
01:39:04,333 --> 01:39:07,493
Speaker 2: of State Marco Rubio has directed US diplomats around the

1689
01:39:07,533 --> 01:39:12,493
Speaker 2: world to urge foreign governments to move expeditiously to diminish

1690
01:39:12,573 --> 01:39:16,653
Speaker 2: the capabilities of Iran and iran Alian terrorist groups from

1691
01:39:16,693 --> 01:39:22,453
Speaker 2: attacking our respective nations and citizens. Close quote, Armstrong ads

1692
01:39:22,573 --> 01:39:25,053
Speaker 2: this war is by no means going to be brief.

1693
01:39:25,493 --> 01:39:29,533
Speaker 2: Then moves on to economic warfare, which I won't touch.

1694
01:39:30,373 --> 01:39:34,853
Speaker 2: And from there the part that does matter. For the

1695
01:39:34,893 --> 01:39:38,733
Speaker 2: sake of this part of the conversation, the question becomes,

1696
01:39:38,733 --> 01:39:41,573
Speaker 2: at what point will Netanyahu push the button? Will he

1697
01:39:41,733 --> 01:39:45,253
Speaker 2: even tell Trump in advance? But Armstrong rights, I have

1698
01:39:45,333 --> 01:39:49,493
Speaker 2: studied history intently. He has actually the only way to

1699
01:39:49,573 --> 01:39:52,933
Speaker 2: achieve peace is that you must listen to the other

1700
01:39:53,013 --> 01:39:56,813
Speaker 2: side's demands for their security. This is why NATO and

1701
01:39:56,893 --> 01:39:59,933
Speaker 2: the EU refuse to come to terms with Russia, because

1702
01:39:59,973 --> 01:40:03,253
Speaker 2: they refuse to listen to what security concerns Russia has

1703
01:40:03,293 --> 01:40:07,373
Speaker 2: regarding Ukraine. Here with Iran, why they're rejecting a cease

1704
01:40:07,413 --> 01:40:11,093
Speaker 2: fire is simple. There is no negotiation whatsoever that listens

1705
01:40:11,133 --> 01:40:14,933
Speaker 2: to their concerns. They have articulated that the US should

1706
01:40:14,933 --> 01:40:18,413
Speaker 2: close all bases and exit the Middle East. I think

1707
01:40:18,453 --> 01:40:21,133
Speaker 2: you would sooner see John Bolton's head spin around whilst

1708
01:40:21,173 --> 01:40:24,533
Speaker 2: viewing out of green fluid. The solution is not that hard.

1709
01:40:25,133 --> 01:40:28,413
Speaker 2: All the Golf states where the US has bases have

1710
01:40:28,613 --> 01:40:32,693
Speaker 2: proven that instead of providing security, they become targets. They

1711
01:40:32,733 --> 01:40:35,933
Speaker 2: have not benefited from having these bases, and now they

1712
01:40:35,973 --> 01:40:39,013
Speaker 2: stand in the way of peace. So how do we

1713
01:40:39,053 --> 01:40:43,573
Speaker 2: get around this problem? Those Golf states must retake their

1714
01:40:43,613 --> 01:40:46,733
Speaker 2: sovereignty over those bases and guarantee that they will not

1715
01:40:46,893 --> 01:40:49,693
Speaker 2: be used to launch future attacks on a run without

1716
01:40:49,733 --> 01:40:53,253
Speaker 2: their permission. The US keeps the bases, but they cannot

1717
01:40:53,293 --> 01:40:57,293
Speaker 2: operate unilaterally, as is the case in Europe. The only

1718
01:40:57,333 --> 01:41:00,173
Speaker 2: way to ensure lasting peace is that Israel must accept

1719
01:41:00,213 --> 01:41:04,173
Speaker 2: a Palestinian state. This has been even voted for in

1720
01:41:04,213 --> 01:41:07,733
Speaker 2: the United Nations. The only reason it does not take

1721
01:41:07,773 --> 01:41:12,613
Speaker 2: place is because of the United States. Unless this is done,

1722
01:41:13,093 --> 01:41:16,413
Speaker 2: it's hard to see how there can ever be a

1723
01:41:16,493 --> 01:41:20,213
Speaker 2: lasting peace. This has been the primary reason why letnya

1724
01:41:20,333 --> 01:41:24,373
Speaker 2: who has wanted to overthrow Iran. He assumes that the

1725
01:41:24,493 --> 01:41:28,933
Speaker 2: elimination of Iran will prevent any Palestinian state. Let's face

1726
01:41:28,933 --> 01:41:32,853
Speaker 2: the facts. Unless some states is established, there is no

1727
01:41:33,053 --> 01:41:38,013
Speaker 2: hope of ending terrorism and war. Now, I disagree with

1728
01:41:38,093 --> 01:41:41,373
Speaker 2: much of what he's said. What I've just read very

1729
01:41:41,373 --> 01:41:46,533
Speaker 2: good with economics than some other things. But in this

1730
01:41:46,573 --> 01:41:50,893
Speaker 2: particular case, I think he's missing well, I think he's

1731
01:41:50,893 --> 01:41:53,613
Speaker 2: missing the signs. But I could be wrong. What would

1732
01:41:53,613 --> 01:41:57,853
Speaker 2: I know compared with him with his backup and information

1733
01:41:58,213 --> 01:42:02,093
Speaker 2: and machinery and all sorts of things. But I still

1734
01:42:02,333 --> 01:42:05,893
Speaker 2: don't agree with much of what I just read. Just

1735
01:42:05,973 --> 01:42:10,413
Speaker 2: to confirm it, take us out for podcast number three

1736
01:42:10,453 --> 01:42:12,773
Speaker 2: hundred twenty if you would like to write to us

1737
01:42:12,853 --> 01:42:17,013
Speaker 2: Latent at newstalksb dot co dot Nz Carolyn at NEWSTALKSIB

1738
01:42:17,133 --> 01:42:20,573
Speaker 2: dot co dot Nz. We shall return shortly with podcasts

1739
01:42:20,613 --> 01:42:23,213
Speaker 2: number three hundred and twenty one. In the meantime, thank

1740
01:42:23,253 --> 01:42:39,813
Speaker 2: you for listening, and why don't you send us a note.

1741
01:42:34,533 --> 01:42:39,093
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from NEWSTALKSB, Listen live on air

1742
01:42:39,293 --> 01:42:41,973
Speaker 1: or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you

1743
01:42:42,053 --> 01:42:44,413
Speaker 1: go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.