WEBVTT - Episode 5: Unmasking The Puppeteer 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:05.560 This episode contains references to suicide and sexual violence. If 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.360 you need help, If you need support, refer to our 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:08.960 show notes. 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:14.400 I'm going to pick up the Talia and it looks 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.080 like she is there. 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:27.960 Yep, there she is. Hello, how are you doing? Long 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.760 time they see goes back cold. 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:42.839 I hope sugar freeze okay, taipe one diabetes tend I've 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.080 made about eight years ago for me, and so like 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.440 sugar and carves. 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.000 And all that stuff just poison poison. 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.200 When I was in jail, I got diabetics too, Okaya, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:58.240 which is a weird place to give it because you 0:00:58.280 --> 0:00:59.160 eat healthy food. 0:00:59.240 --> 0:00:59.840 I would have thought. 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:03.760 So. Yeah, it's the first exchange I had in person 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:08.440 with the Tylia Burgess for thirteen years, Just like I 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.120 had in twenty eleven. I offered to pick her up 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.560 from a home in South Auckland and take her to 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:16.520 our interview. Part of this was so I could chat 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.240 with her and get to know her a bit more 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:23.119 easier into having a conversation with me. Part of it, bluntly, 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:27.080 given her reluctance both then and now, was to ensure 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.760 she'd actually show up for the interview. It was over 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.280 a decade since we'd last laid eyes at each other, 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:35.600 and after a year of trying to get her to 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:37.840 talk to me on the record again, it was a 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.920 little surreal, but then we slipped right back into chatting 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:43.800 for the thirty minutes it took to get to the 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:44.600 Herald offices. 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:47.960 I have been in Womens a couple of times for 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:48.880 various stories. 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:54.800 I went on to meet an interview to meet an 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:59.800 interview in this Canadian peace smuggler called Pinky, Pinky, Pinky. 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:00.960 Do you remember peeking? 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.720 I remember thinking there would have been Would that be 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:04.960 during your second stip? 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:06.560 Were your first my first stint? 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:08.799 I was going to say, to be back then, right, yeah? 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:12.160 And blonde here yeah, well, big booth. 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:15.919 Like so many people online know, Natalie is a bright 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.519 and interesting person to spend time with. I found it 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.440 the same back in twenty eleven when I first exposed 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.320 her as the Facebook predator, a woman who was hunted 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.919 by police after ensneering dozens of teenage boys using false 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:33.880 online personas always like Ethan Williams and Sam Baker. Some 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.480 of those boys were as young as thirteen. One of 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.560 those boys, a judge said, came close to taking his 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:43.280 life as a result even for those who are older, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.919 like Peter Russell of Christchurch. There was an emotional cost 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.600 in Natalia's mind games. This is a story I thought 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.240 was over when Natalie was sent to prison for her 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:57.600 second long term stint in twenty thirteen. I had hoped 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.400 that she'd learned her lesson. I had hope she had 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.320 moved on, But she hadn't. She got out of prison 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:08.079 and pretty much started all over again, using photos from 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:12.520 Crystal Jenna, among others, to create brand new personas. This 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.240 time she targeted older men, many in Australia, as well 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.520 as continuing her habit of approaching mothers and daughters to 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:25.040 forge pseudo familial relationships. After years of struggles, Crystal asked 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:29.079 the police for help, and they didn't. She asked Facebook 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.880 to stop Natalia stealing her images from its platform, and 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:37.920 they didn't. As is often the way in journalism, when 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:42.520 nothing else works, there is the media. So Crystal emailed 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:47.640 me and well you know the rest. Now, after a 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.920 year long investigation, it's finally time for Natalia and I 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.560 to talk again. Over that year, I've discovered just how 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.520 much I missed the first time I investigated in Natalia. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.120 I've also discovered just how little I knew about her 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.720 and what I've now learned, Well, for me, that changes 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:09.560 everything about this story. My name is David Fisher, and 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:19.400 this is the final episode of Chasing Ghosts the Puppeteer Natalia. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.240 Thank you very much for taking time to talk to 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.640 me today. I'm really grateful for it. I've been trying 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:32.119 to speak to you for a year and here we are. Now. 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.000 What is it that led you to sit down with 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:36.560 me today. 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.960 I just think it's now that I'm not mentally unwell, 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:47.080 I need to address why I keep doing this, and yeah, 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.840 you've been really got in the past to debrief stuff 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:51.640 and help me get through stuff. 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:56.120 So the interview happened a few weeks ago, actually, on 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.920 the day the first episode of this podcast came out. 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.640 It had been a long time coming. As I detailed 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:06.000 last episode, in the decade plus since I'd last interviewed Natalia, 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.800 I have more appreciation now for the fact that she's 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.039 not well and the insight I gained this year from 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:16.400 doctor Justin Barry Walsh, forensic psychiatrist with a specialization and 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.360 people who are fixated or obsessive. That gave me a 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.800 richer understanding before sitting down with Natalia to understand just 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:27.719 how difficult this interview might be. I also know from 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.000 my interactions with Natalia that it could be very difficult 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.920 to accept what she says at face value. That might 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:39.920 sound harsh, but she has spent actual decades living a lie, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:45.159 so it's complex, or will be. Before we get into 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.960 the hurt that Natalia has caused. I wanted to understand 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.240 more about her life. Last episode, I spoke of how 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.720 Natalia was adopted a Simon baby, welcomed into the home 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.960 of a Parloringy Salvation Army couple, and then raised in 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:02.039 part on the West Coast. She arrived halfway through the 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.400 school year, and as she tells it, those friendship groups 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.559 were already formed for a new kid. It was hard 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.200 to find the place she was meant to be. 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:13.679 It was hard. That's when I started feeling and making 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:14.440 up lies. 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.640 It didn't help. Natalia told me that her parents were 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:22.640 church officers who, as Salvation Army clerics, wore uniforms, and 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.279 when she stood in front of a mirror, the girl 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.400 she saw looking back didn't look like anyone around her. 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.560 I have two Palany parents, a Palany brother, and then 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:36.800 I'm Samoan Palay, So it was kind of like, yeah, 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:38.800 how do I fit into this family scenario? 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.400 From West Coast to christ Church Primary school to high school, 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.960 these were moves that further distanced to her from her 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.400 peer group. It wasn't until Natalia moved to Auckland in 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.640 her late teens that she first started online, which goes 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.360 back to use that days, back to two thousand and one, 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:58.600 and back to Chickadee. 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:00.800 Jesus, I haven't heard that of Asias. 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.479 Chickadee was Natalia's first online persona in those early days 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.880 of social media. This is when Natalia discovered she didn't 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.680 have to show her true self to the world. But 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.960 when Bibo arrived in two thousand and five, she realized 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.360 that true self could be anybody she wanted it to be. 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.360 Can you tell me about that, about how all of this. 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:28.240 Began, All this began, what was on It wasn't Bibo, 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.000 That's what it was on. It was on Bibo? And 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.840 I think I started off with a character called Amy 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:40.240 and Rachel. Amy and Rachel they were my first two characters. 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.480 And how did they come to be? How did you 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.960 come up with the idea for Amy and Rachel? 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.120 I just think because I didn't like who I was, 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.400 So I went to America stole pictures of a girl 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.360 of America and it just started from there. And when 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:59.160 I realized that this Amy girl was getting so much attention, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.680 I needed a friend otherwise people have stad no believe it. 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.480 And then Rachel was created. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.160 And with those masks in place, Natalia set out to 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:16.040 meet people, well, she set out to meet men. And 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.120 the people that you were meeting in real life, did 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.400 they expect to meet Rachel or did they expect to 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.800 meet Natalia Rachel? And how did that work out? When 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:27.760 you did have that meeting? 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.720 Some went okay, as I can remember, like I can't 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:36.360 remember fully back then. Some went okay, somewhent difficult, somewhere 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:37.880 more than. 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.720 Unpleasant, unpleasant in what sort of a way. 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:46.280 I put myself into situations with guys that were very violent, 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.240 and when they found out the truth, they weren't very nice. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.720 One of those encounters is, in Natalia's mind, the reason 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:58.440 for Laura West, his sister Abby, even Kaylie Littali, the 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.520 identity she modeled on Crystal's photographs. It all goes back 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:06.160 to an encounter Natalias has happened around two thousand and seven, 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.920 she met a man online she calls Karl, and arranged 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.440 to meet him in person. After that real world meeting, 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.520 she says, a group of young women mocked her on Facebook. 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:19.679 She called me fat, she got me ugly, show me. 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.720 Isn't it good for Carl to go back to where 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:23.160 I belong? 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:28.319 Among that group of women, according to Natalia, were Crystal, Jenna, 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:32.679 and Sophie Jarrett. You remember that Sophie had her photos 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:36.840 SOLN back during the Laura West phase, many of them 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:41.400 used as the basis for Laura's sister Abby. Her photos 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.719 were used again alongside her friend Crystal's after Natalia got 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.319 out of jail in late twenty fifteen. I've got to say, 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.880 there's elements of this story that just don't hold together, 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.920 but it seems significant to Natalia. 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:00.320 As dating they met Carl, and they were very mean 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:04.000 about it. So I took her image and Sophie's image, 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.400 and Natalie's image, and Ashley's image and Colle's image. 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.800 So they became what five people whose image you were 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.360 going to use for false profiles? YEP. One thing that 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.920 trips Natalia up here is the name Natalie. That's the 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.920 name of the woman who became the face of Laura West. 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.600 You might remember I took Natalia to meet Natalie and 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.920 she promised she swore to never again use her image. 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.160 Not Natalie, not Natalie Nettley, another Natalie Least, just get 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:36.880 that really clear. Through the fol good on the get 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:41.480 bombarded again. She was the worst and she was his 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.400 ex girlfriend and she was the worst. And then Ashley 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.320 in Crystal and Sophie kind of just chimed in. 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:51.679 She again assures me that she's never used Natalie who 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:56.960 was Laura's image again. But Natalie who's Laura is one 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.240 of the keys to the story because she's connected to 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:04.120 all the other characters that existed at that time. And 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:08.600 Crystal I checked with her about these bullying claims, and 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.280 her earliest knowledge of Natalia was within the last ten years. 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.199 That's how long Crystal says her image has been used. 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:17.920 There's a lot of things that can happen online. I mean, 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.320 you know, because you've spent lots of time online. Is 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.360 it possible it's one of those things that happened that 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:25.560 they don't even remember. 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:31.080 Possibly we were young, but you remember, oh yeah, Netalie 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:31.840 was horrible. 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:37.319 Why I asked Carrie something on seventeen years later. It 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:41.760 baffled me. Some long ago altercation online that doesn't fit 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.120 with what I know, that doesn't resonate with the women involved, 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.880 that even if it did happen, Natalia accepts they may 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:51.080 not even remember. 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.120 So why because I hated those girls? 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.120 This story is one Natalia put forth as if it 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:05.320 explains everything. It explains nothing. There were many many faces 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:09.199 used by Natalia that never did anything to her, and 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.800 maybe that's the case here too. When Natalia started using 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.560 Crystal's photo, that was after Natalia had been to jail. 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.640 That's when she switched from talking to adolescence to catfishing 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.319 adult men. Her focus went from New Zealand to Australia. 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.760 These were, she had told me, conscious decisions to avoid 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.920 being caught. Natalia told me she had also changed the 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.400 scale on which she operated. Is there a particular way 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.760 that she go about constructing a profile to make it 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:40.599 more believable. 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:45.360 I used to have the whole family, sister, cousin, best friend, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.880 like I'd make a whole family for them, But now 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.960 now I'm just like nussed up at one person's enough. 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:54.560 I can't deal with anybody else. 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:59.600 Not exactly one person. There was Crystal and Sophie, but 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.560 that is still quite a switch from the broadcast of 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.600 characters she had used to build worlds in the past. 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.400 It was around this point in the interview when we 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.280 started to get deeper into what Natalia had been up 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.000 to since we'd last spoken in twenty eleven. I asked 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.200 her about taking photos of the children of Crystal's friends 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.320 in order to build the narrative of Kaylie Rose. We 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.440 know this from Crystal and her mum, Lucil, and from 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:28.280 Jada Moran, a man Natalia spoke to briefly in character 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.480 as Kaylee. Danika, and Lisa, the mum and daughter Natalia 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.920 lied to for six years, also recall being sent photos 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.800 of Kaylee's daughter. The only person who doesn't think that happened, though, 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:41.640 is Natalia herself. 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.040 I haven't done any children, not since Laura. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.360 Well, it was Danika's recollection of Lisa's recollection that you 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:53.800 had done so, And actually in the message chains that 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.800 are there, you write about having a daughter. When I 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.440 say in the message chains, I do have screw of 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.840 messages between Kaylee and Danika which include photographs of a child, 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.160 a child of one of Crystal's friends. 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:09.080 Yeah, I had a daughter, but I didn't use any 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.160 images for her. I haven't done that since Laura. 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.640 And I stuck with this because I had the actual 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.760 photographs sent by Kayley, photos of Crystal's friend's child at 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.960 a birthday party, shopping in the mall, celebrating Christmas. That's 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:24.320 not something that you can recall. 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.160 No, I do remember giving Kaye a child, but not 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.320 any pictures. Could I let my lesson with Laura? 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.280 What do you think that lesson was not to hurt 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.960 a child. We've reached a place I've come to think 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.680 of as the reality chasm. Almost all of us live 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.240 on one side of this chasm. Here in the real 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:48.560 world where you're listening to this podcast. Across that yawning 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.360 expanse is a place some visit on occasion, some more often, 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.200 where reality isn't something you can grasp firmly. It is 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:03.160 instead a tenuous thing, slippery creature that escapes and slithers away. 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.280 And with its absence, there is a world that's foreign 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:10.040 to almost all of us, a place where Natalia can 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.080 be whoever she wants to be. When I interviewed Natalia, 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.200 I asked her about the scenarios the car crash on 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.640 which Laura died, the characters who fell in love, pregnancy, miscarriage, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.200 self harm, Where did those things come from? 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:24.720 Me? 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.320 And that's what's happening in your life for things that 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.560 you wish were happening in your life, for both and 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.680 so you could live that out through the false personas, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.160 share the things that were real, and dream about the 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:38.960 things that learned. 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:40.160 Yeah. 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.520 Oddly, when I asked Natalia about the death of Laura 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.760 West and her memories of Emma and Bernie, who you've 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.119 heard from a lot in this podcast, this was her response. 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.280 If we go back to twenty eleven, and that was 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.080 just after the Laura West persona had been killed off, 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.240 and there was a really large group of characters that 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.640 were around Laura that became very involved. Is that right? 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:09.160 I actually can't remember back that far. Sorry. I remember 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:13.640 killing her off, and I just can't remember why I 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:14.960 did it and how I did. 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.720 It in a car crash. 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:20.280 That sounds about right. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:28.040 And do you remember Bernie and Emma a mum and daughter. 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.640 Emma would have been about sixteen when you met her online. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:33.880 Great Auckland, christ Church. 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.720 Wellington outside christ Church. 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.000 Not off the top of me head, I don't. 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.840 Later, while clarifying one thing. I similarly asked her about Jake, 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:45.400 the guy she catfished, the guy who wanted to do 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.320 an interview and then ghosted me. You remember Jake briefly 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:50.720 from episode. 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:56.040 Two one, Jack Jake. I can't remember these names. These 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.920 names are like, it's Jake, Okay, thank you Jake. 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.280 I can't remember the names because because it was so 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:05.040 long ago. 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.119 I've done it to too many people since him. 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.000 How many do you think in the. 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.480 Last year, maybe twenty. 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.800 There's one name that Natalia did remember, Peter Russell. 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.040 Oh yeah, I remember Pete. Yeah. 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:24.080 In the context of Peter, Natalia remembers Emma. You recall 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.560 that Emma and Peter were together until her supposed cousin 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:32.080 Laura West aka Natalia, showed up. Emma told us how 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.000 she ended her relationship with Peter so Peter and her 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.399 beloved cousin Laura could be happy together. 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:40.840 She sued to me, and I m I was like, 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.199 what's up, and he goes on, thanks, I'm falling in 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:43.920 love with this girl. 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:45.600 And I was like, you need to bow your heart, 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:47.480 you need to do what you need to do. But 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.680 that's not how Natalia remembers it. 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.280 That's not true. Peter was single when I met him. 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.720 And things with Peter took a really terrible turn during 0:17:57.720 --> 0:17:59.840 twenty ten. Is that something that you recall? 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:04.040 I remember that, but people forget. If it was that 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.919 heartbroken over Laura, why did he move on? And then 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.560 he was in another complete happy relationship and I left 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:13.040 it alone. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:15.840 It's such a thing as a rebound relationship. 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.040 No, he was happy. I saw the bitches. 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.320 I then asked Natalia about how Rawn has long blamed 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:25.840 her for Peter's self inflicted death. 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.080 Like the court of law when she told me to 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:33.159 court found me not guilty, So I don't know how 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:34.840 to reconcilt it. What chounts me to go back to 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.119 jail for twenty years? 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.560 Found you not guilty? Where do you mean the coroner's 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:41.440 hearing that was held. 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:43.760 I don't know, if something because the police couldn't charge 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.960 him with manslaughter because there was no evidence according to them. 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:50.240 That's well they told me, right. 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.560 So there was the police inquiry into Peter's death. Whether 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.040 you were responsible for that? Yeah, do you feel any 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:01.840 responsibility for that? I realized that this is a long 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.640 time ago. But when I'd interviewed Raywan, I was struck 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:12.000 by really felt it by her grief, and I'm wondering 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.320 how you deal with that because she's out of the 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:17.160 world there thinking that she'll fault. 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.480 There's nothing I can do to change your mind, but. 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.000 You don't feel that responsibility. 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.119 I feel partly responsible because what I did up to 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:27.800 the day that he broke up with me was probably 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.520 not a very good idea. But then, like I said, 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:33.399 he moved on, he got a new relationship, he was happy. 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.160 Natalie was right in the fact she was never held 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:39.720 responsible for Peter's death. There was a coronial hearing about 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.640 Peter's death, as I mentioned in that bit of the interview, 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.840 but the contents of it were sealed. As to Peter 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.239 moving on, I can't speak for how happy he was 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.560 before he died, or if he truly moved on from 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.520 this relationship. From what I know of Natalia, she puts 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.400 a lot of weight on relationships as being a source 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.400 of happiness, hence why she sought them out with such 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:06.560 great regularity over the last twenty years. I don't think 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:12.240 Peter entering into another relationship after Laura West necessarily wipes 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:19.280 away the impact of Natalia's deceit. However, while Rayvend blames Natalia. 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.159 Those who knew Peter at the time have spoken of 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.600 other difficulties in his life before his death, and in 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.520 my experience of covering cases like this, there's really a 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:34.560 single cause for suicide regardless. I think Peter's death is 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.000 a shadow that will follow Natalia for the rest of 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.240 her life. His death after his involvement with her was 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.679 a big part of the narrative back in twenty eleven, 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.640 both in my coverage and in other interviews she did, 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.959 and the names Natalia Burgess and Peter Russell will in 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.600 some way forever be linked. She spoke to me in 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.639 twenty eleven about how much his death impacted her at 0:20:56.680 --> 0:21:00.920 the time, and during our recent conversation, Natalia acknowledged again 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.960 the impact of his death, but she didn't seem to 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.199 really grasp the impact her actions had on other people, 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.080 which I pushed her on near the end of our conversation. 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:15.000 You seem to have become really aware of yourself and 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.159 the things that are inside you that cause you difficulty. 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.359 I am sensing less awareness of the pain that you've 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.439 caused out there in the community, which has been incredible. 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.960 It really has been a huge amount of pain. Do 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:32.720 you have trouble understanding the difficulty that you've caused others? 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:34.320 I just don't get the grips of it. 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:36.200 Tell me more about that. 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.760 I understand that I've hurt people, and I've understand that 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:45.280 I don't have any empathy. I'm sorry, but I don't. 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:47.720 There's one thing I don't have. 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:51.879 Is that like a thing that you think you should have, 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.000 but it's gone. You never grew it. 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.639 I had it when I was young, but then I 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:02.639 just caring about people as soon as they started bullying me. 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:05.800 This was not the first time she'd referred to difficulties 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.760 in her childhood and teenage years and the impact those 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:12.159 had on her. Several times during the interview, she referred 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:13.800 to life changing at fifteen. 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:18.080 Since the age of fifteen, everything has just gone done uff. 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:21.040 What do you mean Since I. 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:26.560 Turned fifteen, I met certain people at certain things, and 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:28.399 that just led my life down like a merry go 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:30.240 round of bad decisions. 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:33.680 It was an age she kept referring to, but not 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.440 saying fully what she wanted to. She referred to an 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:39.920 incident when she was fifteen when her brother found her 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:43.640 overdosing on drugs and her hurt and how that affected him, 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:48.160 but there was clearly more to the story. My producer 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.680 Ethan eventually asked her outright what had happened. 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:59.000 Then, I was raped by my best friend in the 0:22:59.000 --> 0:22:59.840 whole town were. 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.360 And that's the point of change that sticks in your mind. 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:07.800