Speaker 1: Kiyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a compilation episode of
Speaker 2: The Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the New
Speaker 2: Zealand Herald. It's been a huge year for sport here
Speaker 2: in New Zealand. In one weekend in October, Team New
Speaker 2: Zealand took to the water in Barcelona and took home
Speaker 2: the America's Cup for the third time in a row,
Speaker 2: while the White Ferns won the ICCT twenty Women's World
Speaker 2: Cup Final. There were major wins across the board for
Speaker 2: the Black Caps, the Silver Ferns and our latest football team,
Speaker 2: Auckland FC. But in this major sporting year, there was
Speaker 2: perhaps no bigger cause for celebration than the Paris Olympics.
Speaker 2: Krewe athletes bagged more gold medals at Paris than any
Speaker 2: other Olympic Games in history, with the likes of Dame
Speaker 2: Lisa Harrington and Lydia Coe ensuring their place in the
Speaker 2: history books. To rising stars like Hamish Kerr and Finn Butcher,
Speaker 2: there were plenty of Kiwi sporting heavyweights in action, with
Speaker 2: the games over and the four year journey to Los
Speaker 2: Angeles already beginning for some. In August, we recapped the
Speaker 2: highs and lows with News Talk z'b's sports reporter and
Speaker 2: gold sport commentator Elliott Smith. Elliott, let's start with the highlights.
Speaker 2: If you had to pick just one Kiwi medal to celebrate,
Speaker 2: which one would it be?
Speaker 3: Well, goodness, Chelsea coming in hot early on. Look, I
Speaker 3: think for me it'd be the high jump of Hamish Kerr.
Speaker 1: I think he.
Speaker 3: Overcame some issues in the qualifying and then in the
Speaker 3: final just brought her out and was so so good
Speaker 3: in that and the drama that came in that with
Speaker 3: the jump off and everything like that. You know, New
Speaker 3: Zealand's medals in the track and field have been few
Speaker 3: and far between. You think of Valerie Adams in recent times.
Speaker 3: Tom Walsh to win a gold medal in something like
Speaker 3: the high jump I thought was exceptional and just the
Speaker 3: celebration racing around Star de France, around the turf and
Speaker 3: celebrating in that manner that one stands out to me.
Speaker 3: But trying to narrow it down very very difficult. But
Speaker 3: I thought that was a pretty special one from a
Speaker 3: New Zealand perspective.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting, hey, because they both decided to do
Speaker 2: the jump off in the end, and I've seen some
Speaker 2: American reports giving the American competitor some slack for being selfish,
Speaker 2: whereas in Tokyo didn't they share the medal and then
Speaker 2: got the same amount of slack.
Speaker 1: That's right. I don't think you're going to win.
Speaker 3: I think that's always going to be a difficult conversation
Speaker 3: because some people will go and like in Tokyo, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, it's not really in the what is in
Speaker 3: the Olympic spirit, but it isn't to have a shared
Speaker 3: gold medal. This time around, they didn't share it, and
Speaker 3: there was a distinct gold distinct silver. I think for me,
Speaker 3: I thought that was probably the way to go about it.
Speaker 3: You've come this far, you're going to get the least
Speaker 3: silver anyway, why not try and split it and go
Speaker 3: for the gold. I thought it added extra drama, extra tension. Look,
Speaker 3: I'm sure what a being special for Hamish Curre if
Speaker 3: he shared the gold medal, But in some ways sharing
Speaker 3: the gold almost like sharing a silver. It's not quite
Speaker 3: as distinct as the two. Whereas with Hamish Kerr, now
Speaker 3: he knows he is the best high jumper in the world.
Speaker 3: He's won the Olympic gold medal, he's not sharing it
Speaker 3: with anyone, and he gets there on his own.
Speaker 2: So Dame Lisa Carrington the goat in the boat with
Speaker 2: eight golds. Now she's now ranked sixteenth of all time,
Speaker 2: ahead of a Usane Bolt, the only New Zealander in
Speaker 2: the top one hundred ready.
Speaker 4: To race in the women's kayak for if they can't
Speaker 4: see the finish line, it is gold for New Zealand
Speaker 4: and the sixth golden moment for Dame Lisa. New Zealand's
Speaker 4: supposed to decorate an Olympian. Lisa Carrington strikes gold again.
Speaker 2: Are we ever going to see another one like her?
Speaker 3: I don't know that we will, and we should treasure
Speaker 3: it for as long as her career lasts. Whether she
Speaker 3: decides to go again for LA in four years time
Speaker 3: or decides that that's enough, you wouldn't blame her either way.
Speaker 3: If he decides that her eight gold medals is enough,
Speaker 3: then ghisolutely good on her. But the success that she's
Speaker 3: had in not only the individual by but what she's
Speaker 3: brought to the K two and the K four has
Speaker 3: been immense for New Zealand and I think obviously she's
Speaker 3: our greatest Olympian, But just looking at the way that
Speaker 3: she brings others up to her skill level. In the
Speaker 3: K two and the K four, they wouldn't win without her.
Speaker 3: She's like that motor right at the front of the boat.
Speaker 3: She's so metronomic in the way that she gets in
Speaker 3: the kayak. Obviously she's got incredible strength, but there's something
Speaker 3: that she just seems to have a symbiotic relationship with
Speaker 3: the boat and the water and the paddle that when
Speaker 3: she gets on the water, she is completely unstoppable. She
Speaker 3: knows the beats that she has to hit, she knows
Speaker 3: where she needs to be to win a race, and
Speaker 3: she pulls along the other person in the boat and
Speaker 3: the K to the other three in the K four
Speaker 3: without wanting to diminish their success as well. But she's
Speaker 3: so integral to that. So we need to absolutely treasure
Speaker 3: while at last, and to think that she's been at
Speaker 3: the top of her game in a number of boats
Speaker 3: right from London twenty twelve through to this Olympics in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, now at thirty five years of age,
Speaker 3: through twelve years of success and no one has really
Speaker 3: got close to her, especially in the individual events, is remarkable. Look,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't all out going to Los Angeles in four
Speaker 3: years time. She doesn't look like she is being close
Speaker 3: to me in court yet, especially in the individual boats.
Speaker 3: So hey, we might see her extend on that success
Speaker 3: as in New Zealander and maybe try and catch some
Speaker 3: of those others that are at the top of the
Speaker 3: all timetable.
Speaker 1: For the world.
Speaker 2: Well, after she did her races, it looked like she
Speaker 2: could go and do them again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3: She definitely seems to FaZe that she's done the race,
Speaker 3: and everyone else looks like they're about to vomit on
Speaker 3: the block once they get out, and she's like fresh
Speaker 3: as a daisy. It's remarkable that she can do that.
Speaker 3: And you know, thirty five, she's still young. A lot
Speaker 3: of the competitors around and the clerking seem to go to.
Speaker 1: Their to late thirty.
Speaker 3: So it's probably a fifty to fifty call as to
Speaker 3: whether she competes again, and LA certainly didn't close the
Speaker 3: door on that necessarily, so I imagine she'll take some
Speaker 3: time now to figure out whether she does want to
Speaker 3: go out to LA and where that competitive energy still
Speaker 3: burns bright. And already what she's done as Schelsea has
Speaker 3: been remarkable. If she was able to build on that
Speaker 3: in La it would be quite incredible.
Speaker 2: And I can see her hanging around the Olympics as
Speaker 2: well and really building up the younger generations like she
Speaker 2: already kind.
Speaker 1: Of yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: I mean the competitors or the teammates rather she had
Speaker 3: in the K two and the K four are still
Speaker 3: very very young and her experience is invaluable. It was
Speaker 3: the flag bearer at the closing ceremony along with Finn Butcher,
Speaker 3: so that is remarkable. I imagine she's got a great
Speaker 3: future in the sport, whether it's as a coach or
Speaker 3: a mentor whatever it might be. As I mentioned before,
Speaker 3: that relationship that she seems to have with the boat
Speaker 3: is you know, intrinsic, it seems to be in her soul.
Speaker 3: But if she can pass down some of those tips,
Speaker 3: so the next generation there might be another someone who
Speaker 3: can come close to Lisa Carrington or maybe replicate some
Speaker 3: of those efforts on the water and the Olympics to
Speaker 3: come so.
Speaker 2: Lydia Coe's gold gives her a complete set of medals,
Speaker 2: a first for a golfer of any gender at the Olympics,
Speaker 2: and qualifies her for the LGPA Hall of Fame. Is
Speaker 2: there anything else for her to do or she basically
Speaker 2: just clocked a sport at twenty seven.
Speaker 3: She's long talked about wanting to retire at the age
Speaker 3: of thirty. Even back when she was a teenager, she
Speaker 3: sort of said she's not in golf for life. This
Speaker 3: isn't going to be everything. She's obviously very very good
Speaker 3: at it, but has other things that she wants to
Speaker 3: do once she hits thirty. And I spoke to her
Speaker 3: before the Olympics and she was still quite set on that,
Speaker 3: saying it would be her last Olympic Games. I mean,
Speaker 3: you can look at her career and go she was
Speaker 3: absolute prodigy, very very young, switched to being a pro
Speaker 3: one major's, you know, when she was still very young.
Speaker 3: Hasn't had a major win in a while in terms
Speaker 3: of those events every year, but completed the Olympics the
Speaker 3: best Olympic golfer as it stands in history with the
Speaker 3: three different medals. Maybe she would like more majors, but
Speaker 3: she seems to rise when the Olympics come on. It
Speaker 3: just seems to be an event that she can play
Speaker 3: a best golf at. And whether it's just different for
Speaker 3: the majors where she has had some success, but maybe
Speaker 3: not as much as she would like. She seems to
Speaker 3: target the Olympics. And while we don't see her down
Speaker 3: in New Zealand very long, she's very proud in New Zealand.
Speaker 3: It always talks about how proud she is to represent
Speaker 3: New Zealand on the LPGA to her, but also when
Speaker 3: you're doing it at the Olympics, wearing the silver fern,
Speaker 3: you're hearing the national anthem at the end, there's something
Speaker 3: clearly very special about that. And look, I know she
Speaker 3: said it's her last Olympics. Maybe she might get her
Speaker 3: arm twisted. You know, she plays a lot of her
Speaker 3: golf in America and has residency there as well.
Speaker 1: Whether there is a prospect she might.
Speaker 3: Play in LA twenty twenty eight at the stage, no,
Speaker 3: but similar Lisa Carrington wouldn't rule it out.
Speaker 5: Co kept her calm and finished in style with a
Speaker 5: birdie the woman in all black on the final green,
Speaker 5: enjoying the adulation.
Speaker 2: And obviously we can't shout out absolutely everyone, but who
Speaker 2: else caught your eye?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 3: Look, Alexandres was phenomenal and what a way to finish
Speaker 3: the Olympic Games. With a couple of gold medals. I
Speaker 3: know her on the track and the Kien and then
Speaker 3: in the sprint. She is absolutely remarkable what she can
Speaker 3: do and still so very young. She's got a couple
Speaker 3: more Olympic cycles left in her and I really love
Speaker 3: the way that nothing seems to face Alexandrews. She's got
Speaker 3: an eye for the finish line, or eye for the valodrome.
Speaker 1: She just absolutely puts her head.
Speaker 3: Down and just peddles her her heart out and at
Speaker 3: times it doesn't look like as any other competitors out
Speaker 3: in the valodrome. That's the kind of the way that
Speaker 3: she races. She's just doing it knowing that if she
Speaker 3: hits her marks, and similar to Lisa Carrington, if she
Speaker 3: does what she needs to do, she's confident that she
Speaker 3: will get the gold medal. Success so'd win in the sprint,
Speaker 3: in the Kerran, two big events in the track. Cycling
Speaker 3: was absolutely special. So for me, that's the other heart
Speaker 3: of the Games, at least Andrews winning those gold medals.
Speaker 2: This Olympics saw the return of surfing, skateboarding and sport
Speaker 2: climbing and an attempt to bring in breaking or break dancing.
Speaker 2: On those first three which are now core Olympic sports.
Speaker 2: Do you think do you think that which.
Speaker 1: Audience all three of them still?
Speaker 3: To be honest, I think surfing this time felt a
Speaker 3: little bit isolated.
Speaker 1: It was held in Tahiti.
Speaker 3: Obviously, you know there's a French connection there, but it
Speaker 3: just felt like the tyranny of distance was so great
Speaker 3: between that it just didn't feel connected to the Olympics.
Speaker 3: So I think that was an issue. I'm still not sure.
Speaker 3: It's rarely hit its straps in the Olympics yet. Skateboarding
Speaker 3: I think is worthy being there. I think it's a
Speaker 3: real sport that can connect with young people. The Olympics
Speaker 3: is trying to shed this image of being a little
Speaker 3: too fuddy duddy, and I think events like skateboarding, you know,
Speaker 3: they really belong. It connects with the youth and the
Speaker 3: talent that's on display there is very, very impressive. And
Speaker 3: I really like the sport climbing. I think that's a
Speaker 3: great event. It's rapid, it's fast, seeing the New Zealanders
Speaker 3: involved there, but just seeing how quickly they can go
Speaker 3: up the war on the straight speed climbing is five
Speaker 3: seconds to race up a wall. Those the kind of
Speaker 3: events the Olympics should be looking at to try and innovate.
Speaker 3: The are popular events on their own, bring them into
Speaker 3: the Olympic fold fields, right.
Speaker 2: And do you reckon breaking is one and done?
Speaker 7: Do you think?
Speaker 3: I suspect so? Yeah, I'm not sure that entirely work.
Speaker 3: Poor old ray gun out of Australia.
Speaker 2: She gave it a go, could you imagine?
Speaker 3: But this is the Olympics. This isn't about giving you
Speaker 3: the go, this is about the pinnacle. Yeah, it just
Speaker 3: felt a little bit out of it. It felt like a
Speaker 3: character from a crysal lily sketch.
Speaker 2: In all honesty, it felt so out of place. It
Speaker 2: was so it was awful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, the memes have been constant in the
Speaker 3: last couple of days since she competed, and I feel
Speaker 3: sorry for her to an extent, but it was a
Speaker 3: little bit silly.
Speaker 1: The whole thing, the breakdancing.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's going to be back and I
Speaker 3: don't think it works, So we can just consign that
Speaker 3: to the Olympic rubbishman.
Speaker 1: I think in her.
Speaker 8: Ossie Green and Gold trackies we saw a kangaroo hop,
Speaker 8: the sprinkler headstad and all of it earned her exactly
Speaker 8: zero points from the judges.
Speaker 2: I think justice for Reagun anyway. I think she went
Speaker 2: out there and she gave it a go. She was
Speaker 2: the best Australia guy not known for our breakdancing talent.
Speaker 3: No, it's not going to be in Brisbane in twenty
Speaker 3: thirty two, so poor old Reagun it I don't think
Speaker 3: we'll be competing at a home Olympics.
Speaker 2: Kayak cross made its jaboo as well and clinched us
Speaker 2: a gold medal for Finn Butcher. Are you excited to
Speaker 2: see that continuing?
Speaker 8: Am?
Speaker 3: I thought that was one of the highlights of the
Speaker 3: Games in all honesty. In terms of the new sports,
Speaker 3: it's almost like the TV shirt gladiators. You know, you've
Speaker 3: got some tension between the competitors. They're allowed to hit
Speaker 3: each other within reason, They're allowed to bash each other
Speaker 3: with the boats. They're all scrambling down this core and
Speaker 3: not only that, they're going on a whitewater rapid course,
Speaker 3: so you're trying to beat your competitors at the line.
Speaker 3: It felt like it really worked and there was a
Speaker 3: It was great to see a Kiwi win that, but
Speaker 3: I thought it was an event that the Olympics kind
Speaker 3: of needs sometimes you're very much competing in sort of
Speaker 3: time trials or races in lanes. This is you know,
Speaker 3: going elbowing each other that you can do pretty much
Speaker 3: whatever you like within reason. So I thought that was
Speaker 3: a real success for the clat cross. So I'm excited
Speaker 3: to see that back in four years time.
Speaker 2: The twenty twenty four Olympics saw sporting highs as well
Speaker 2: as heartbreak for some, but no competition garnered more controversy
Speaker 2: than the women's boxing. The inclusion of Algeria's Emman Hakliff
Speaker 2: and Taiwan's lynn U Teng sparked a firestorm. Their involvement
Speaker 2: was further exacerbated after Italy's Angela Karini called off her
Speaker 2: match against hercleif after only a few seconds, prompt outrage
Speaker 2: online from the lanks of Donald Trump, JK. Rowling, Elon Musk,
Speaker 2: and our own Winston Peters. We spoke to University of
Speaker 2: Waikato Professor of Sociology in Sport and Gender, Holly Thorpe
Speaker 2: about the controversy and about the role of trans women
Speaker 2: in sport. The misinformation and cruelty directed towards these two boxes,
Speaker 2: these two women has been immense They've been misgendered and
Speaker 2: labeled men. Pierce Morgan tweeted a photo of Khalif and said,
Speaker 2: if this is a biological female, I'm a biological ardvark.
Speaker 2: For example. Is this anything other than just outright discrimination
Speaker 2: coming for a muscular athlete with short hair who doesn't
Speaker 2: look I suppose like your stereotypical woman.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the abuse was wide ranging, and we definitely had
Speaker 7: a number of very high profile figures from Trump to
Speaker 7: you know, people with huge followings, making very crude and
Speaker 7: humiliating kind of remarks about her gender identity. And I
Speaker 7: think a lot of people kind of looked at the
Speaker 7: photos and made decisions themselves, thinking, oh, you know, she's
Speaker 7: got short hair, a strong jawline, and actually gender's much
Speaker 7: more complex than what we look like or we have
Speaker 7: short hair, and so I think a lot of people
Speaker 7: got kind of caught out by assuming or making assumptions
Speaker 7: and yeah, like you're saying, unfortunately, this kind of online
Speaker 7: abuse was very widespread and it's harmful. This really hurts athletes,
Speaker 7: but it also hurts the next generation of young athletes,
Speaker 7: who you know, can see that if you don't perform
Speaker 7: a particular version of femininity, you might get this kind
Speaker 7: of level of abuse which is very harmful.
Speaker 2: At Tokyo in twenty twenty one, New Zealander Laurel Hubbard
Speaker 2: competed in the weightlifting as a trans woman. Have sporting
Speaker 2: codes progressed in the last three years in addressing trans
Speaker 2: women and those with DSD yes.
Speaker 6: I think I mentioned this before. It's very uneven landscape.
Speaker 7: So whereas the International Limbic Committee set out this framework
Speaker 7: really trying to be guided by inclusive understandings of gender,
Speaker 7: this is only a framework, so they're kind of using
Speaker 7: this to encourage other international organizations to follow in their lead,
Speaker 7: but others are not right, and others are doing their
Speaker 7: own thing, like World Athletics are still using testosterone testing,
Speaker 7: and it's yeah. I think what we're seeing is some countries,
Speaker 7: some sports organizations really trying to move towards more inclusive
Speaker 7: understandings of gender as it relates to sport, and the
Speaker 7: drawing upon the research and lots of consultation to do so.
Speaker 6: And then we've got other organizations that.
Speaker 7: Are still basically using pretty archaic methods of sex testing.
Speaker 2: Now I should mention that DSD is an acronym for
Speaker 2: differences in sex development. So the NHS says it's a
Speaker 2: rare group of conditions involving genes, hormones, and reproductive organs,
Speaker 2: including genitals. It means a person's sex development is just
Speaker 2: different to most other peoples, I suppose. So when it
Speaker 2: comes to DSD, do we just need to accept that
Speaker 2: some people have a biological advantage in sport? Say in
Speaker 2: the same breath that Lebron James would easily win a
Speaker 2: game of one on one against a five foot five man.
Speaker 6: Oh, I think you know you're right.
Speaker 7: I mean, the bodies that we're born into, whether it's
Speaker 7: our height, whether it's our hand size, whether it's our
Speaker 7: foot size, will give some people biological advantages. And I
Speaker 7: wouldn't say that testosterone or the sex body that we're
Speaker 7: born into is just one part of many aspects that
Speaker 7: make for strong or lesser than performances. But also you
Speaker 7: can think about performance, it's also the country that you're
Speaker 7: born into, the kinds of funding and support that wraps
Speaker 7: around an athlete. Do you have funding for a good
Speaker 7: coach and good facilities and enough money to be able
Speaker 7: to travel to compete and train elsewhere. So there's so
Speaker 7: many things that come into performance, and biology is one
Speaker 7: of them. But biology, it's much more than just sex.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And what I find interesting about this debate as well,
Speaker 2: this is the Olympics, so this is the world's best
Speaker 2: of the best. Algeria is going to send their best
Speaker 2: women's boxer to the Olympics, just like Jamaica sent Usain
Speaker 2: Bolt to the Olympics. Did the likes of Usain Bolt,
Speaker 2: for example, have to undergo any kind of testing other
Speaker 2: than perhaps drug testing to prove why he ran the
Speaker 2: way that he ran.
Speaker 7: My understanding that male athletes have never had to undergo
Speaker 7: gender verification, And you're right. We look at Michael Phelps
Speaker 7: for example. You know, huge feet, tall, big hands. I mean,
Speaker 7: these are biological advantages in swimming, but we're not accusing
Speaker 7: him of any unfair advantage, right, But yeah, you're right.
Speaker 6: These questions are directed at women, powerful, strong woman who
Speaker 6: challenge particular versions of gender identity. But often it's not
Speaker 6: all women who are targeted by these types of questioning.
Speaker 6: It's often non white athletes, black and brown sportswomen in
Speaker 6: particular are those who, when they are strong, when they
Speaker 6: are powerful, when they are winning, are often questioned about
Speaker 6: their gender identities and then have to undergo, you know,
Speaker 6: these pretty horrific kinds of practices to prove they are
Speaker 6: a woman. So I think there's a whole lot of
Speaker 6: not just gendered issues here, but also of race that's
Speaker 6: important to address. I think they're going on here in
Speaker 6: this case as well.
Speaker 7: But these are ethical issues which are always complex.
Speaker 2: In October, New Zealand's newest A League team, Auckland DEFC,
Speaker 2: was prepping for its debut against the Brisbane Raw at
Speaker 2: its home ground, Mount Smart Stadium and in front of
Speaker 2: a sellout crowd of nearly twenty five thousand spectators. The
Speaker 2: Black Knight It's defeated the Raw to nil. Since then,
Speaker 2: the team's gone from strength to strength, continuing their unbeaten
Speaker 2: run with a two to two draw in their visit
Speaker 2: to Melbourne last weekend. Their debut weekend was also one
Speaker 2: that drew eyes onto another Kiwi making waves in an
Speaker 2: international sports setting. Liam Lawson, the rising F one star,
Speaker 2: would make his debut as a full time driver for
Speaker 2: Red Bull at the US Grand Prix and is now
Speaker 2: waiting for an official decision on if that will continue
Speaker 2: next year. The Front Page caught up with News Talk
Speaker 2: ZB Sports news director Clay Wilson and senior sports reporter
Speaker 2: Elliott Smith to talk about these exciting times for Kiwis
Speaker 2: in sport and whether it's the start of our country
Speaker 2: caring about something other than international rugby.
Speaker 3: They've got a pretty good roster, but sometimes in the
Speaker 3: A league that doesn't mean very much at all. Sometimes
Speaker 3: a good roster gets you in mid table, sometimes it
Speaker 3: gets you towards the top of the and sometimes it
Speaker 3: gets you right down the bottom. I guess that the
Speaker 3: proof will be as the season goes on, how they
Speaker 3: build and how they come together as a team.
Speaker 1: They've got the right parts.
Speaker 3: They've got a lot of exciting players from both New Zealand,
Speaker 3: former internationals and current internationals, and also some from abroad
Speaker 3: as well, so I think it's a pretty good mix.
Speaker 3: And what it has shown is that there is enough
Speaker 3: players to go around when you add in some international players,
Speaker 3: some All Whites returning home that across the all Whites
Speaker 3: storry a Crosswalkland f C and the Wellington Phoenix, there
Speaker 3: are enough to have two professional sides in New Zealand.
Speaker 3: Whether they can sustain it commercially and fan wise, I
Speaker 3: think is the big question around it, because football is
Speaker 3: not the kind of sport in New Zealand that it
Speaker 3: is abroad. The Wellington Phoenix have had a good backing
Speaker 3: from their city and from others around the country for
Speaker 3: some time, but whether it's enough to be commercially sustainable
Speaker 3: as a fan driven enterprise, I think the jury is
Speaker 3: still out. There's going to be a lot of hype
Speaker 3: around this first game this weekend, around the first derby's,
Speaker 3: but as the season goes on, will those fans continue
Speaker 3: to show up? Will they show up again in round twenty,
Speaker 3: Will they show up again in round one twenty twenty
Speaker 3: five to twenty six. That's the real question for me
Speaker 3: whether it can be sustained.
Speaker 2: Well, what does the arrival of Auckland FC actually mean
Speaker 2: for the Wellington Phoenix. Are they happy about having a
Speaker 2: new local team to compete against?
Speaker 1: Not particularly.
Speaker 3: I don't see though, because it cuts off their commercial
Speaker 3: opportunities to an extent as well, that they can't go
Speaker 3: up to Auckland or go to big businesses and go
Speaker 3: We're the only football team. If you want to tap
Speaker 3: into football in this country, you have to go to
Speaker 3: the Wellington Phoenix and have to be sponsored or part
Speaker 3: of our sponsorship team, So that cuts off the point
Speaker 3: of difference to an extent, and now there's two, so
Speaker 3: that is an issue for them that they've got to
Speaker 3: try and figure out. They've had Auckland as a semi
Speaker 3: base or a second base for a few years now
Speaker 3: and they've taken games to Eden Park very successfully, got
Speaker 3: some decent crowds there. They can't really do that anymore.
Speaker 3: We can't go up to the home base of where
Speaker 3: another team is based now look at christ Church and
Speaker 3: other markets to try and extend their reach around there.
Speaker 3: So I think they'll enjoy the derby games, but whether
Speaker 3: they actually enjoy the presence of a second New Zealand
Speaker 3: team in the A League, I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 1: I think the jury's out for the Phoenix in that one.
Speaker 2: I mean it's going to be ultimately a good thing
Speaker 2: for football in New Zealand right to have more pathways
Speaker 2: into a professional sporting career. I mean, rugby is our
Speaker 2: national sport, but I think football is really popular with
Speaker 2: kids at the moment.
Speaker 9: Clay right, well, football quite a long time ago, and
Speaker 9: Elliott will correct me if I'm wrong here, but at
Speaker 9: a junior level went past rugby in terms of numbers,
Speaker 9: not necessarily at a youth or secondary school level, and
Speaker 9: that may have changed since, but the likes of football
Speaker 9: and basketball were really boomed in the last ten, fifteen,
Speaker 9: twenty years. So those players of course now are coming
Speaker 9: through to be young adults, teenagers, players that want to
Speaker 9: perhaps or are talented enough to move into the professional ranks.
Speaker 9: Of course, if there's only one professional team here, you
Speaker 9: only have one option. Now they instead of maybe ten
Speaker 9: spots on a roster for one team, you have twenty
Speaker 9: or twenty five spots that those talented young New Zealand
Speaker 9: players have the ability to go into. So yeah, of
Speaker 9: course that's a good thing. Whether the Phoenix are so
Speaker 9: stoked about that because now there's competition for that young
Speaker 9: talent coming through, and you know, of course that young
Speaker 9: talent is good for them in a way that you
Speaker 9: don't pay a lot for it either, so you know,
Speaker 9: you keep a bit of money in the coffers to
Speaker 9: go splash abroad. But definitely for those young players coming
Speaker 9: through a good thing to have that extra team as
Speaker 9: a pathway to the next step to Europe, to the
Speaker 9: United States, to these kind of other markets.
Speaker 2: Nont Liam Lawson Clay This has been years in the making,
Speaker 2: hasn't it. I feel like we've been talking about him
Speaker 2: returning to Formula one for donkeys' years, so why is
Speaker 2: now the time frame?
Speaker 9: Well, it's been a bit of a I don't know
Speaker 9: if saga's the right word, but that's sort of how
Speaker 9: it's felt, especially in the last kind of six to
Speaker 9: twelve months. Of course, he made that replacement stint last
Speaker 9: year when Daniel Ricardo got injured, and he did so
Speaker 9: so well in those five races that the expectation was
Speaker 9: that he was going to get a full time drive
Speaker 9: for this year. That of course never eventuated and he
Speaker 9: had to step back into that reserve role. But really
Speaker 9: this is something that Liam Lawson has probably been working
Speaker 9: towards on the verge of for the last four or
Speaker 9: five years really. Of course, you know, starting out in
Speaker 9: his younger years back here, but then went to Europe
Speaker 9: I think about sixteen or seventeen years old with the
Speaker 9: backing of a large number of kind of motorsport enthusiasts
Speaker 9: here in New Zealand and then has worked his way
Speaker 9: to this point and really in the last kind of
Speaker 9: a few months. You know, Formula one is a cutthroat business,
Speaker 9: as always Generally what happens is that someone has to
Speaker 9: not perform for you to perform. And Liam's spoken about
Speaker 9: this already this week, and Daniel Ricardo was brought into
Speaker 9: that second seat at Racing Balls, which is the second
Speaker 9: team for Red Bull there effectively their junior team, to
Speaker 9: see if he could rediscover that form he had early
Speaker 9: in his career and get back to that Red Bull
Speaker 9: main team that of course never eventuated, and they've decided
Speaker 9: to bring Liam in. And I think the timing of
Speaker 9: this is really telling as to what Liam's future looks
Speaker 9: like next year because they haven't confirmed a deal, but
Speaker 9: we're going to see over this next six race is
Speaker 9: what he's going to do, and then they're going to
Speaker 9: make a decision.
Speaker 1: I think off the back of.
Speaker 8: That, you know, it's it's the six rounds left of
Speaker 8: the season, so I've come in at a difficult time.
Speaker 8: It's going to be a.
Speaker 6: Very challenging point obviously.
Speaker 8: You know, all these guys have done three quarters of
Speaker 8: a season now, so I have to try and try
Speaker 8: and compete with that now at tracks that I haven't
Speaker 8: done as well, So it's going to be challenging. I've
Speaker 8: spoken to my parents, I've spoken to everybody that's that's
Speaker 8: been behind me on this journey, and it's very very special.
Speaker 8: But we don't have much time to really let this
Speaker 8: sin can We're going to get straight to work.
Speaker 2: Well, there must be so much pressure on him to deliver,
Speaker 2: given how long he's waited for this, and the fact
Speaker 2: that he's replacing Daniel Ricardo.
Speaker 9: Well, we saw what he could do last year, stepping
Speaker 9: in at much shorter notice, and he did very well.
Speaker 9: He clearly is someone who can adapt very quickly. He
Speaker 9: has the skills, he has the talent. So I think
Speaker 9: you know he's coming into it this time having already
Speaker 9: gone through that and shown and proven that he's a
Speaker 9: driver that I can get into a Formula one car
Speaker 9: pretty quickly and get up to speed with the rest
Speaker 9: of the field. The difference this time, however, is that
Speaker 9: last time there was really not I mean, he won't
Speaker 9: agree with this, but the perception was there wasn't that
Speaker 9: much pressure on him because he was brought in so
Speaker 9: late notice, he was only in there as an injury replacement.
Speaker 9: It was like, well, let's see what he does. We're
Speaker 9: not really expecting anything of him. But as I've already
Speaker 9: alluded to, these last six races this time around are
Speaker 9: really a test case for what Liam's going to be
Speaker 9: doing next year, and so that there really is pressure
Speaker 9: on to perform and perform well if he wants to
Speaker 9: ensure that he a gets a full time drive with
Speaker 9: Racing Bulls that second team, But there's a lot of
Speaker 9: talk about whether he might even be in contention for
Speaker 9: the proper Red Bull team and that seat alongside Max
Speaker 9: Versteppan because his pressure on Sergio Pirez, who's the second
Speaker 9: driver there. So you know, there's a lot of opportunity
Speaker 9: here for Liam, and of course with that comes pressure.
Speaker 9: But you know he said multiple times and even again
Speaker 9: this week that anytime you step into a Formula One
Speaker 9: car you know it could be your last because it's
Speaker 9: such a cut throat competition industry. The pressure is there regardless,
Speaker 9: but definitely this time around different than it was last year.
Speaker 2: Both of you have been covering sport for most of
Speaker 2: your careers. Are you excited by the fact we're able
Speaker 2: to talk about some different sports. It's not just rugby
Speaker 2: or sailing anymore. We're actually seeing some excitement and some
Speaker 2: movement in different fields.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 9: I think that's the way society has kind of gone right.
Speaker 9: It's allowed more sports to flourish at a junior level
Speaker 9: and that's now coming through to a senior an elite level.
Speaker 9: And you know, Elliott might have a slightly different viewpoint.
Speaker 9: You know, he's obviously our voice of rugby and our
Speaker 9: rugby commentator and is heavily involved with that. But us
Speaker 9: in the sports team, you know, we're in the job
Speaker 9: because we love sport, not just one sport. So for
Speaker 9: us to be able to come in on any given
Speaker 9: day and have one of fifteen twenty twenty five sports
Speaker 9: to talk about as great and quite often some of
Speaker 9: the best stores, some of the best interviews, some of
Speaker 9: the best moments in terms of your job, come in
Speaker 9: these in these minor sports when you least expect it,
Speaker 9: So you know, the personalities of people are perhaps a
Speaker 9: little bit more out there those kinds of things. Yeah,
Speaker 9: it's great. It's great to have such variety now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, and it certainly wasn't the case.
Speaker 3: You know, I think back fifteen twenty years ago, maybe
Speaker 3: you got a couple of NBA games a week on ESPN.
Speaker 3: Now you can pretty much watch them all over streaming
Speaker 3: and then piece heaps on the ESPN, NFL, Major League Baseball,
Speaker 3: Formula One. You know, used to be buried in the
Speaker 3: middle of the knife. You didn't get up and watch it,
Speaker 3: that was your chance. Now you can see highlights and
Speaker 3: various things. So what it has done is level the
Speaker 3: playing field. And that's the challenge for sports like rugby
Speaker 3: that have had this stranglehold on New Zealand culture for
Speaker 3: so long is to keep pace with these sports if
Speaker 3: they want to still be the sport of choice for New.
Speaker 1: Zealand going forward.
Speaker 3: And I think that's it's a really interesting topic, but
Speaker 3: it's leveled the playing field in terms of what sports people.
Speaker 1: Are interested in.
Speaker 2: Also in October, we witnessed the unbelievable on a different
Speaker 2: kind of field. India suffered its first series defeat at
Speaker 2: home since twenty twelve, at the hands of none other
Speaker 2: than New Zealand. The defeat came when India was bowled
Speaker 2: out for two hundred and forty five by the Black
Speaker 2: Caps in their chase of three hundred and fifty nine
Speaker 2: on the third day of the second Test. The Kiwis
Speaker 2: went on to hand India a historic zero three series
Speaker 2: whitewash at home. We spoke to the ends at Herald's
Speaker 2: online Sports editor Alex Powell on what this could mean
Speaker 2: for cricket in New Zealand in terms of this series.
Speaker 2: I mean, you watched it, what do you think the
Speaker 2: black Caps did differently?
Speaker 10: I mean, that's a really difficult question to answer because
Speaker 10: the game plan that they had was basically the same
Speaker 10: one they had in Sri Lanka where they got swept
Speaker 10: turnerl I think the performance of India was re really
Speaker 10: what's done in India have just imploded in this series.
Speaker 10: They've not lost a home Test series since twenty twelve,
Speaker 10: they'd won eighteen consecutive series in the time since then.
Speaker 10: They've beaten every nation there apart from Pakistan. And yet
Speaker 10: it's New Zealand that's pulled their pants down again.
Speaker 2: So how historic is this defeat for them?
Speaker 10: For India, it's their first Test series lost at home
Speaker 10: to New Zealand and then conversely it's New Zealand's first
Speaker 10: away series win in India. I mean, you'd probably have
Speaker 10: to ask India where it ranks. They don't look at
Speaker 10: New Zealand in the greater picture and say these guys
Speaker 10: are our big rivals. They think, you know, Australia and
Speaker 10: England because that's where cricket is now that those three
Speaker 10: countries dominate. Then they also probably love beating Pakistan more
Speaker 10: than anyone as well. Whether or not this really rankles
Speaker 10: in history is probably to be seen and for India to.
Speaker 2: Answer, is it more historic than for New Zealand to
Speaker 2: have done this to India?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 10: New Zealand are definitely the biggest story head like, we
Speaker 10: will look back on this team in ten years and
Speaker 10: go wow, I can't believe they did that. They had
Speaker 10: no business winning one test in the series, never won
Speaker 10: two with one still to play.
Speaker 2: What has some of the international coverage being this?
Speaker 10: So cricket now as a sport effectively just bends over
Speaker 10: backwards to praise India. I think the status for every
Speaker 10: dollar and international cricket ninety odd cents, so it comes
Speaker 10: from India. The sport is completely fixated on making the
Speaker 10: most of that audience. So in a lot of ways,
Speaker 10: the Black Caps have really upset the Apple car by
Speaker 10: doing this.
Speaker 2: And it's not only the men's team making good on
Speaker 2: that international stage, is it.
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 10: Yeah, the woman won the T twenty World Cup.
Speaker 1: What last week?
Speaker 11: Now?
Speaker 10: Sorry, time's a bit blurred now for me because there's
Speaker 10: been so much other It's been so.
Speaker 2: Much cricket to watch, So how historic was that win
Speaker 2: for the women's.
Speaker 10: Historic's probably not the right word, because they did win
Speaker 10: the full fifty over World Cup in two thousand, but
Speaker 10: that was in a whole generation of players ago, so
Speaker 10: much so that this generation was saying how they watched
Speaker 10: that one and got inspired from it. But I mean,
Speaker 10: on the whole, it's just a great time to be
Speaker 10: a keeper cricket fan, isn't it?
Speaker 2: Could this bolster cricket's popularity in New Zealand. I feel
Speaker 2: like we're constantly talking about rugby and its stars, the
Speaker 2: All Blacks. Do you think the same can be said
Speaker 2: about cricket and greats?
Speaker 10: I think rugby is such a different thing to compare
Speaker 10: any of this too, because rugby isn't a sport in
Speaker 10: this cure its entertainment. Whether or not we'll look at
Speaker 10: the cricketers in the same light as with the rugby players,
Speaker 10: I don't think so. We've already seen this generation of
Speaker 10: men's cricketers are the best we'll probably ever have, and
Speaker 10: they can all still walk down the street mostly without
Speaker 10: being bombarded. But I mean the effect this is going
Speaker 10: to have on kids. There's a phrase that you see
Speaker 10: in sports, you can't be what you can't see, and
Speaker 10: now we've had a generation of girls grow up and
Speaker 10: see their team win the t twenty World.
Speaker 1: Cup, World champion.
Speaker 5: Susie baits Susie, good morning, Congratulations.
Speaker 10: How are you really?
Speaker 11: Jess so pumped. We've just sung the team song in
Speaker 11: the changing room. Yeah, surreal. The tournament has been so
Speaker 11: great for this group and to be world champions. You know,
Speaker 11: we've had a couple of cracks, but not recently and
Speaker 11: just so fas.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 10: We've had a generation of boys come through and see
Speaker 10: their team just be amazing since what twenty fourteen, they've
Speaker 10: won the World Test Championship in that time as well.
Speaker 10: So I think the future really is bright. But now
Speaker 10: it's up to Newland Cricket to have the right pathways
Speaker 10: in place for this talent to come through.
Speaker 2: While many would have guessed the introduction of a new
Speaker 2: all blacks coach would have been the biggest shakeup in
Speaker 2: ends at rugby this year, the biggest test was actually
Speaker 2: happening behind the scenes. New Zealand Rugby has been at
Speaker 2: loggerheads with the provincial unions about how to reform governance
Speaker 2: for the country's most popular sport. In May, those unions
Speaker 2: voted against proposed reforms by the enzet Are Board, before
Speaker 2: an eventual deal was struck in September. Since then, the
Speaker 2: applications for director roles closed in October, with hopes these
Speaker 2: will be the last steps before a long awaited resolution
Speaker 2: to a saga that began more than a year ago.
Speaker 2: For context on this battle, in April ends It Heralds
Speaker 2: sportswriter Gregor Pohl gave us the rundown about what has
Speaker 2: led to these games going on in rugby's board rooms. Gregor,
Speaker 2: let's go back to August twenty twenty three when the
Speaker 2: Pilkington report was delivered. What was the purpose of that
Speaker 2: report and what did it find?
Speaker 12: Well, you've got to go back a wee bit further
Speaker 12: to get the purpose of the report, which was a
Speaker 12: non negotiable demand from the Rugby Players Association when talks
Speaker 12: was silver Lake, the private equity investor, broke down entirely
Speaker 12: in twenty twenty one, and the players said, look, we're
Speaker 12: only going to come back to the table and see
Speaker 12: if we can sort this out on the condition the
Speaker 12: New Zealand Rugby commission a review into their own governance
Speaker 12: structure because the RPA was concerned that it wasn't fit
Speaker 12: for purpose. Everyone agreed to this, it was non binding.
Speaker 12: It was however, agreed that New Zealand Rugby would operate
Speaker 12: in good faith and any of the findings that the
Speaker 12: Pilkington Review put forward they would look to act upon
Speaker 12: them wherever they could. So in August twenty twenty three,
Speaker 12: when the report was finalized, it confirmed what everybody probably
Speaker 12: already knew, which was that the governance structure and the
Speaker 12: way that the New Zealand Rugby Board of nine Directors
Speaker 12: is appointed is no longer fit for purpose. And the
Speaker 12: review recommended a best practice way in terms of modernizing
Speaker 12: the entire rugby landscape if you like, as it pertains
Speaker 12: to governance, and they put forward a blueprint on what
Speaker 12: that should look like.
Speaker 2: So what did New Zealand Rugby propose as a way
Speaker 2: of addressing these reforms.
Speaker 12: Well, I think they wanted to ignore it for as
Speaker 12: long as they possibly could. If I'm going to be
Speaker 12: honest with you, they were never really fully supportive of
Speaker 12: the idea in my opinion that they wanted to do
Speaker 12: the review. They felt it was foisted upon them. So
Speaker 12: when the review was published, New Zealand Rugby's response was
Speaker 12: kind of vague. It suggested generically that they supported many
Speaker 12: of the findings of the review. Because the review had
Speaker 12: given a blueprint in terms of how to restructure and
Speaker 12: what to do. Most people assumed that New Zealand Rugby
Speaker 12: and the provincial unions would agree with that, would look
Speaker 12: at that and go, yep, there we go. Does everyone
Speaker 12: agree this is the right thing to do. The report's comprehensive,
Speaker 12: it's done by credible experts. We all committed to the report.
Speaker 12: We all contributed to the report, and we agreed that
Speaker 12: these were the right people. This was the right way
Speaker 12: to do it. And now we've got exhaustive findings. So
Speaker 12: shall we just Robert stampless and get on with it instead.
Speaker 12: What has happened is we've had an eight month period
Speaker 12: now where the New Zealand Rugby Union and the provinces
Speaker 12: separately have tried to reimagine the report and create their
Speaker 12: own blueprints for a governance structure, and they've sort of
Speaker 12: worked a little bit with the report. They've amended things
Speaker 12: here and there. Both parties have had different ideas about
Speaker 12: which parts of the report they would like, which part
Speaker 12: they don't like. They've not been able to agree. I've
Speaker 12: actually lost count of how many different versions they've both
Speaker 12: put forward to one another. And here we are now,
Speaker 12: instead of what should have been a fairly simple process,
Speaker 12: we still have the Rugby Union putting forward its ideas
Speaker 12: and what it wants, and we've got the unions with
Speaker 12: their own proposal which they have now lodged to hold
Speaker 12: a special general meeting and they want to hold a
Speaker 12: vote in six weeks time to prove their own version
Speaker 12: of the report. I suppose it is the easiest way
Speaker 12: to put it.
Speaker 2: So we've got ended Rugby on one hand and then
Speaker 2: the provincial unions on the other. What's the view of
Speaker 2: the unions?
Speaker 12: So they are I mean, they're not too dissimilar to
Speaker 12: the actual Pilkington Review. Their sticking point for them is
Speaker 12: that they're concerned that if they adopted the review in
Speaker 12: its entirely that they might end up with a nine
Speaker 12: person independent board, which they support. They support the idea
Speaker 12: of full independence, but they're asking at this stage for
Speaker 12: at least three of the directors who are appointed to
Speaker 12: have held at least two years experience working on the
Speaker 12: board of a provincial rugby union. So they're worried that
Speaker 12: you might end up with a board of kind of
Speaker 12: career directors, if you like, people who have financial skills
Speaker 12: or legal skills or whatever it might be, but not
Speaker 12: necessarily embedded experience in grassroots rugby. Now there's accounter argument
Speaker 12: that says, well, the whole proposal here takes care of that.
Speaker 12: The review actually creates some matrix of skills that that
Speaker 12: will need to be included anyway. But the unions are
Speaker 12: wanting sort of belt and braces on that, and they
Speaker 12: are also proposing that at least one of these directors
Speaker 12: identifies as specificus.
Speaker 2: There seems to be a lot of back and forth,
Speaker 2: a lot of hullablue over specifics regarding how this will
Speaker 2: look like. Does that translate to how big the issue
Speaker 2: was to begin with or has this snowballed into something
Speaker 2: that people are getting wound up over.
Speaker 12: Yeah. Look, the Pilkington Review said that the current process
Speaker 12: is not fit for purpose, and you could argue now
Speaker 12: that the fact that it's taken eight months to actually
Speaker 12: get not particularly closer to any kind of agreement is
Speaker 12: indeed evidence that it's not fit for purpose. We are
Speaker 12: going round and round here. There's an element of self protectionism.
Speaker 12: Certainly from the New Zealand Rugby Board. There's one or
Speaker 12: two who are reluctant to resign their positions as part
Speaker 12: of this process, so that's holding things up a little bit.
Speaker 12: From the provincial union perspective, they've become hung up that
Speaker 12: fee directors must have two years experience. That is a
Speaker 12: blockage to an agreement being made on all fronts. But
Speaker 12: in the end you could make a fairly strong argument
Speaker 12: to say that while the unions are supportive of change
Speaker 12: and nine independent directors coming in, they still want to
Speaker 12: make sure that there's provincial union control in all the
Speaker 12: various councils and bodies that are going to be appointing directors.
Speaker 12: And then again with the demand that three directors have
Speaker 12: come through Provincial Rugby, it's not actually the volume of
Speaker 12: change that we would all imagine you would get if
Speaker 12: you just adopted the Pilkington review.
Speaker 2: That's it for this compilation episode of the Front Page.
Speaker 2: You can read more about the stories featured in this
Speaker 2: episode and extensive news coverage at ensiherld dot co dot
Speaker 2: z The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and
Speaker 2: Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer, along with
Speaker 2: Paddy Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune
Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another compilation episode, taking a look back
Speaker 2: at some of the year's biggest stories,