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Speaker 1: Hud We Maori five G.

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Speaker 2: A wiki to man that.

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Speaker 1: Was TV and Z Takarare presenter Scotti Morrison five years

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Speaker 1: ago announcing the news that a short term allocation of

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Speaker 1: radio spectrum for five G services was being made to MARI.

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Speaker 1: It turned out to be a stepping stone to a

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Speaker 1: more significant agreement between the Crown and MARI signed in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two that granted MARI a fifty megahertz slice

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Speaker 1: of spectrum allocated to five G telecommunications services. Not only that,

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Speaker 1: but a twenty percent share of all future commercial radio

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Speaker 1: spectrum allocations. It was a huge win for MARI after

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Speaker 1: decades of making the case that radio waves were a

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Speaker 1: tanga and essential to preserving Maori language and culture. This

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Speaker 1: week on the Business of Tech powered by two's Business

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Speaker 1: Anthony Royle, one of the key figures that helped secure

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Speaker 1: that historic win from MARI, on the innovation in five

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Speaker 1: G services that the MARI led organization to a Taya

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Speaker 1: is now undertaking using that spectrum allocation.

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Speaker 2: We are not going to go and try and compete

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Speaker 2: and do another two degrees. We've done their job. What

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Speaker 2: we want to do now is look at some of

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Speaker 2: the other ways that we can help improve productive out

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Speaker 2: the safety using virus technologies in a particular g wils,

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Speaker 2: so that was our starting point.

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Speaker 1: Anthony joins me shortly on episode ninety of the Business

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Speaker 1: of Tech, and my first episode without Ben More as

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Speaker 1: my co pilot. Ben sadly departed Business Desk this week,

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Speaker 1: but don't worry, he'll be hopefully back as a guest

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Speaker 1: from time to time, as he's staying very much in

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Speaker 1: the world of tech. But I'll be flying solo from

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Speaker 1: here on in, bringing you each week interviews with some

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Speaker 1: of our leading thinkers from the world of tech and business.

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Speaker 1: My premise is pretty simple. Really, New Zealand isn't in

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Speaker 1: a great place when you look at some of the

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Speaker 1: big economic and social indicators and how they are trending.

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Speaker 1: But when you scratch the surface, and this particularly goes

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Speaker 1: for the tech world, I'm so passionate about There's so

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Speaker 1: much good innovative stuff going on here. We have a

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Speaker 1: lot of smart people trying to make our country a

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Speaker 1: better place, and I think their perspectives can inspire us

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Speaker 1: all to do a lot better. That certainly applies to

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Speaker 1: this week's guest, Anthony Royle. In a few short years,

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Speaker 1: Anthony has led the organization to ar Taya formerly the

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Speaker 1: Interim Mari Spectrum Commission from startup to late last year

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Speaker 1: signing a deal to build a country's first commercial private

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Speaker 1: five G network for Wellington's Center Port. It's pretty incredible

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Speaker 1: progress and it's led to the creation of jobs and

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Speaker 1: crucially opportunities for MARI to have careers in the telecommunications

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Speaker 1: and tech space that otherwise wouldn't have existed. This really

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Speaker 1: all stems from the Waitangi Tribunal decades ago recognizing claims

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Speaker 1: to radio spectrum, and then a valiant effort by many

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Speaker 1: people in Maridom, Anthony Royal among them, to convince the

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Speaker 1: government to accept those claims and share the rights to

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Speaker 1: radio spectrum with MARI. So here's Anthony with a bit

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Speaker 1: of background on that big win for MARI with the

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Speaker 1: radio spectrum allocation and what his plans are for five gen.

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Speaker 1: Anthony Royal Kura, Welcome to the Business of Tech. I've

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Speaker 1: wanted to get you on for quite some time because

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Speaker 1: I'm just really excited about the work you're doing at Tuateya.

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Speaker 1: What was the Intra Mari Spectrum Commission looking after this

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Speaker 1: amazing Tana on behalf of MARI, the five G spectrum

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Speaker 1: allocation and some really cool stuff that you have been

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Speaker 1: doing and have plans for with that spectrum on behalf

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Speaker 1: of MARI for the betterment of MARI. I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to start out really about your background, a long career

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Speaker 1: in it and in MARI governance and lots of organizations

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Speaker 1: EWEI based organizations and trusts, as well as the likes

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Speaker 1: of Tapuna Carker back in the day Two Degrees you're

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Speaker 1: on the board of and there's a connection to this

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Speaker 1: journey you've been on it. Two Degrees is very much

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Speaker 1: pied off. We'll talk about as well. But I think

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Speaker 1: way back in the nineties you started out what as

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Speaker 1: an electrical engineer.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Iing to engineering school in Auckland back then,

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Speaker 2: because the engineering schools were very different. It was very

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Speaker 2: male orientated and to a very very few Mary in fact,

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Speaker 2: I think it was one other Marty in the engineering

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Speaker 2: school at the time. That was where I built my career.

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Speaker 2: I always wanted to be engineered. I don't know why,

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Speaker 2: because my family comes from a family of educationalists and

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Speaker 2: of course you never get away from that. I've found

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Speaker 2: that through my career as education really wasn't my thing.

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Speaker 2: I've found myself being involved in education, knowlogy and mari

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Speaker 2: and where those three things meet, that's the kind of

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Speaker 2: sweet spot for me. So I'm from Nati tamter kitotongav

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Speaker 2: So I spent a lot of time with Nati Rocoa

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Speaker 2: and based out of Watucky with Colla and many of

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Speaker 2: the leaders that came from from that area, including one

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Speaker 2: of my mentors who was Fatarani Winata who was a

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Speaker 2: professor at Victoria University for Iran ran to Aranka was

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Speaker 2: the first CEO first to Monkey. I'm also from Napoleon

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Speaker 2: and north from my grandmother's side. I'm from the south

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Speaker 2: side of the Hook young and then from Nati Tama

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Speaker 2: Nati Fenoga in the Hierarchy area, which is where I'm

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Speaker 2: now spending a lot of my time. I chair Nati Tamterra,

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Speaker 2: which has interests all the way through the Orchand area

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Speaker 2: all the way down to Katikati and around, particularly predominant

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Speaker 2: in the huraky Planes and Coromandal areas. So I do

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Speaker 2: a lot of that ebee work as well. But you know,

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Speaker 2: the technology spaces where I've kind of sped my time.

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Speaker 1: You've had a wide variety of roles.

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Speaker 2: Anthony.

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Speaker 1: You started out looking after the paper machines at the

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Speaker 1: Kinley paper Mill, then Tasman Paper Mill as well. You

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Speaker 1: spent a number of years in Asia installing computers and factories.

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Speaker 1: You came home really sort of retrained in it. Got

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Speaker 1: involved in the first web projects for the New Zealand

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Speaker 1: Dairy Board before it became Fonterra.

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Speaker 2: We had this new thing called the Web and we

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Speaker 2: implemented the very first international Internet that connected all of

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Speaker 2: the sites around around the world. So, you know, those

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Speaker 2: were really good foundational times developing a skill set, and

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Speaker 2: then I decided to then turn my attention to taking

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Speaker 2: those skills and using them for the betterment for Mari,

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Speaker 2: and so did a lot of work with FAATENGI went

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Speaker 2: out there and building to Angopol. We implemented in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and the very first program whereby it was composed

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Speaker 2: through for every single student that came to the waring

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Speaker 2: to have a computer, and if they didn't have one,

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Speaker 2: we gave them one and we gave them training. And

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Speaker 2: as a result of that program, we got computers into

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Speaker 2: the homes of thousands of mary across the country. We

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Speaker 2: were looking to normalize the use of technology, and to

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Speaker 2: this day it's to on oco now has We did

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Speaker 2: another project which is about in the early days of

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Speaker 2: online learning, we've said, well, this is probably going to

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Speaker 2: be the future. So we invested quite a bit of

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Speaker 2: time and effort into thinking about how best to do

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Speaker 2: that with sort of products, and we deployed one of

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Speaker 2: the very first Moodal implementations in New Zealand that's still

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Speaker 2: running today and in fact has a massive number of

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Speaker 2: online students now. So fucking you went out. It was

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Speaker 2: a visionary in that area. He knew that we needed

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Speaker 2: to do some stuff for the future and he let

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Speaker 2: us get on with it. I've been very fortunate to

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Speaker 2: have been involved in many of those projects which were

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Speaker 2: very forward.

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Speaker 1: Thinking, Yeah, and tackling that issue that we still have

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Speaker 1: to be honest, off the digital divide is inequity there

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Speaker 1: around access to things like broadband devices, online learning platforms.

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Speaker 1: So you were directly addressing some of those things early on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like in two thousand when we got our program

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Speaker 2: up and running computers. The s problem was that many

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Speaker 2: of our students come from way around the country. Well

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Speaker 2: none of the ISPs would take them on, mostly because

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Speaker 2: you need to have credit cards, and most of our

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Speaker 2: students were pretty transient. They were in rental situations, and

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Speaker 2: there was no way for us to get our students

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Speaker 2: onto an ICP. So we said, we're going to create

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Speaker 2: our own That's what we did. We created our own

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Speaker 2: ISP and these are back in the days we used

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Speaker 2: modems over phone lines. We created our own health desk

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Speaker 2: and we trained up people to be on the end

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Speaker 2: of the line to give people a hand. You know,

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Speaker 2: back in those days, that was pretty innovative to start

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Speaker 2: up your own ISP. These days, it's relatively straightforward to

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a whole wholesale sort of network now with

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Speaker 1: obviously with Corus, you're basically wholesale in fiber access. It

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Speaker 1: was a lot more difficult back then, negotiating literally with

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Speaker 1: Telecom who had the monopoly on the copper lines.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We even put our own fiber into all teching.

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Speaker 2: We ran a big fiber ring. We've got some guys

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Speaker 2: and we dug a big fiber ring in me. Of

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Speaker 2: course that got over built by of course we weren't

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Speaker 2: able to come to an agreement. Said we said, look

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Speaker 2: at these fiber were in the ground we've got ducks,

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Speaker 2: We've got the whole lot. But anyway, they went that

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Speaker 2: keen on the idea. But that's the kind of thinking

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Speaker 2: that we were engaged. It was exciting, it was risky,

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Speaker 2: and it was you know, this be the future is

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Speaker 2: So that's what we should be doing, is thinking about

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Speaker 2: what's the next thing? Where are we're going? And yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think we all know what the next big thing is.

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Speaker 2: The question is how do you hark it?

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Speaker 1: And while all of this great work was going on,

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Speaker 1: it was really, I guess, a bit of a struggle

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Speaker 1: to recognize Mari's rights to spectrum. Radio spectrum a really

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Speaker 1: valuable commodity that telecommunications providers and broadcasters rely on to

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Speaker 1: supply those services. Take us through sort of the history

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Speaker 1: of this. It goes back to probably the seventies and eighties,

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Speaker 1: but that real struggled to have that right recognized legally.

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Speaker 1: That led to in twenty twenty two, and you were

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Speaker 1: a big part of making this happen. That recognition of

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Speaker 1: Mary's rights enshrined in legislation, resulting in MARI collectively being

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Speaker 1: given a chunk of five G spectrum and the rights

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Speaker 1: to twenty percent of future commercial spectrum as well, huge

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Speaker 1: huge development there. Take us back to the history of that.

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Speaker 1: Where does it begin, Well.

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Speaker 2: It begins well before my time, because Mary been working

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Speaker 2: on this for decades. The argument was linked to survival

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Speaker 2: of our language. There was a lot of work to

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Speaker 2: try and encourage the use of Telli or Mary, and

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Speaker 2: one of the tools that was required to make that

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Speaker 2: happen was being able to have access to broadcast services,

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Speaker 2: both in terms of radio and television. The ability for

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Speaker 2: people to hear the language in a normalized situation over

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Speaker 2: our broadcast services was pretty fundamental and that was what

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Speaker 2: the argument was about. And of course the government was

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Speaker 2: not keen at all on handing out licenses. After a

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Speaker 2: lot of arguments and discussion and negotiation through some AM

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Speaker 2: radio stations that were set up and some of them

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Speaker 2: run to the.

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Speaker 1: Day and those AM licenses back then, that was really

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Speaker 1: the start of EE radio, which, as you say, is

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Speaker 1: still going strong decades later. I think there was also

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Speaker 1: an effort at the time for Mari to host the

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Speaker 1: third TV station that ultimately became TV three of totally

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Speaker 1: commercial cam List venture back in the early nineties, but

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Speaker 1: there was obviously a concerted effort it didn't work, I

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Speaker 1: think for financial reason for Mari to be that third

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Speaker 1: TV channel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, there's been a lot of barriers placed in

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Speaker 2: the way over time, not the least of which is

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Speaker 2: having the financial capital to be able to pull some

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Speaker 2: of the stuff off, because you know, producing media is

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Speaker 2: not a cheap exercise. But I think that you know,

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Speaker 2: through the persistence of some of our leaders over the years,

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Speaker 2: you know, Sir Graham and Lada Murra and were Angywaketi

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Speaker 2: Puru and many many others, they've all done the hard

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Speaker 2: yards on this over time, and it's down to those

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Speaker 2: leaders who have really thought for this that we are

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Speaker 2: in the position were now.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen eighty six, the White Tangi Tribunal found that broadcasting

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Speaker 1: was crucial for promoting today as you say, it should

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Speaker 1: be a tanga protected by the Treaty of Waite Tangy.

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Speaker 1: Fast forward to ninety nine, the White Tangi Tribunal Y

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Speaker 1: seven seven six recommended allocating a share of commercial spectrum

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Speaker 1: to MAI. The government didn't accept that finding. It took

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Speaker 1: another basically twenty years for that to actually happen.

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Speaker 2: So there was Rangya or Everton was the claimant supported

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Speaker 2: by Natrokowa when you are to playing a very strong part.

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Speaker 2: Dang Yojo's son Graham Everton that they all played a

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Speaker 2: part and bringing to the argument around telecommunications spectrum. That

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Speaker 2: was the first in the telecommunications space that we saw

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Speaker 2: an argument brought forth around the role that BARTI had

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Speaker 2: to play in this space. And you know, it's quite

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Speaker 2: interesting the role that New Zealand as a whole is

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Speaker 2: played in telecommunications. We were the first in the world

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Speaker 2: to auction off telecommunications spectrum. The United States and other

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Speaker 2: countries around the world actually followed us and looked at

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Speaker 2: the experiment that happened here in New Zealand and now

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Speaker 2: it's become the norm. And of course that idea of

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Speaker 2: optioning off spectrum was the very thing that kept off

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Speaker 2: the argument and the U Tribune, and that is the

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Speaker 2: government assumed ownership of this resource, the rights to use

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Speaker 2: spectrum or telecommunication spectrum in particular, and then to be

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Speaker 2: able to go on and in correct private property rights

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Speaker 2: which are then tradeable. They have asset values and can

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Speaker 2: be traded. That was the key that good the conversation,

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Speaker 2: saying you can't assume that you own the stuff and

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Speaker 2: then can convert it into these private assets. And of

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Speaker 2: course the government's argument was what in eighteen forty, you know,

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Speaker 2: you guys didn't know about spectrum, so you know you

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Speaker 2: can't count and make your tonnel well, and eighty forty

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Speaker 2: you didn't. So that was the basis of the argument

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Speaker 2: was really around these private rights that were being created.

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Speaker 2: And of course the Witanua Tribunal found in favor. The

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Speaker 2: government didn't accept the finding because it's only a recommendatory process.

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Speaker 2: Some part. What they did do was in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and the following year and they said, tell you what

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Speaker 2: we'll do is we'll set up a trust, and which

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Speaker 2: was called at the time the Marti Spectrum Trust, which

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Speaker 2: is now called to that. I take a trust and

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Speaker 2: then we'll give you a bit of money. They gave

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Speaker 2: five million dollars and then the government spent a million

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Speaker 2: dollars on actually setting the trust up, so it wasn't

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Speaker 2: a lot of cash. And then the rights to purchase

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Speaker 2: some three g spectrum and we'll give you a discount,

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Speaker 2: a five percent disc and the spectrum I think was

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Speaker 2: very forteen million. I think, so there was no way

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Speaker 2: with the money that we had that were going to

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Speaker 2: even be able to get our hands on it. So

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Speaker 2: from that point forward, there were a number of people

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Speaker 2: who rolled up best Lee's and said, look, we need

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Speaker 2: to think about how we utilize the spectrum this opportunity

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Speaker 2: we have, and how do we build a competing network.

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Speaker 2: And of course, at the time, Vodaphone and Spark had

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Speaker 2: a very comfortable duopoly, so even if you wanted to

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Speaker 2: start up a new network, there were so many things

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Speaker 2: that were barriers in place to prevent that occurrent. But

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Speaker 2: with tenacity and people like Tex Edwards and Bill Osborne

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Speaker 2: and many others, Bavis, Mulleins and others batted down all

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Speaker 2: of those barriers over time, attracted investment from overseas and

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Speaker 2: eventually launched two degrees Mobile, of which Marty had a

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Speaker 2: small portion, of a diluting portion over time because of

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Speaker 2: building one of these nationwide mes works at a billion

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Speaker 2: dollars is pretty expensive, so it's not the sort of

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Speaker 2: petticash that we have sitting in the draw. So over

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Speaker 2: time we were diluted. But nonetheless, I think the value

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Speaker 2: that we have seen as a result of two degrees

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Speaker 2: Mobile coming to this country is can be measured in

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Speaker 2: billions of pe and now we've got one of the

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Speaker 2: more competitive markets in the world. We didn't have that before.

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Speaker 2: I remember personally getting a monthly bill from Vodafa for

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Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty dollars for my mobile phone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sending a text message was twenty cents, So it

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Speaker 1: was ridiculous. Every market in Europe showed that. When in

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Speaker 1: the US, when you have three players, that's when you

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Speaker 1: really do get competition. That relationship and it was back

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Speaker 1: in the early days. It was with Ecoonett, this African

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Speaker 1: telecommunications provider. They were involved in it texts just a

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Speaker 1: force of nature, knew exactly what he was doing. He

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Speaker 1: was involved in. It led to your involvement with two

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Speaker 1: Degrees on the board as well.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I was on the board during the startup

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Speaker 2: phase of Two Degrees, which was pretty exciting. It learned

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Speaker 2: a lot during that phase working with the guys from Trilogy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was a pretty exciting face. It was a people

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Speaker 2: were passionate about building a new competitive organization against the

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Speaker 2: existing two incumbenties. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that has happened and you know they have one

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Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of customers now, so that's a great thing.

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Speaker 1: Separate to that about five years ago you joined the

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Speaker 1: Intra mari Spectrum Commission which is now Totaya as the

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Speaker 1: chief executive officer, and that was really to shepherd and

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Speaker 1: take care of the spectrum resources.

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Speaker 2: In two thousand and twenty we established the Intra Marii

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Speaker 2: Spectrum Commission Trust, which I became the CEO of and

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Speaker 2: then we went on to negotiating a deal with the

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Speaker 2: government which we signed in twenty twenty two. And so

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Speaker 2: that was a landmark agreement with the government that set

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Speaker 2: out a plan for the future which was about a

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Speaker 2: test spectrum, about supporting developing up the idea of a

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Speaker 2: spectrum commission, the idea of how do we get access

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Speaker 2: to infrastructure, skills, capability because we've been trying for so long.

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Speaker 2: Capabilities in the space are very low, very few Maori

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Speaker 2: inside telecommunications sector and this and issue actually pull others

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Speaker 2: bit later it and just really how do you continue

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Speaker 2: to build a workforce for the telecommunications sector. It's been

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Speaker 2: neglected for some time. So we said we want to

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Speaker 2: be able to build up our capacity and ultimate aim

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Speaker 2: is we don't want to be dependent on government. We

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Speaker 2: want to be self standard, we want to stand on own,

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Speaker 2: we want to be independent. We want to add value

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Speaker 2: to the government and we want to add value to

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Speaker 2: New Zealand, and we want to do that through participating

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Speaker 2: at greater levels than we've allowed in the past. And

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Speaker 2: so that was the blueprint for what the future might

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Speaker 2: look like, and so we've been working on that. We

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Speaker 2: started a process of looking for opportunities use to invest

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Speaker 2: in the sector and a broad Tech Group was one

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Speaker 2: that popped up and met a number of the criteria

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Speaker 2: and so we signed an agreement. Interestingly, broad Tech Group,

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Speaker 2: we didn't realize that we'll have to sign it the

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Speaker 2: day that we signed with broad Tech. Broad Tech had

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Speaker 2: just on that very day, had its fiftieth birthday. So

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Speaker 2: it's a company that requires fifty years old in New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: And it started out with Radio Heneque, building the first

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Speaker 2: commercial antenna site for Radio HOGEG. So its genesis is

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Speaker 2: in the broadcasting and radio and television and then more

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Speaker 2: lately it's gotten too telecommunications. So we've had that just

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Speaker 2: over a year now and supporting that and growing that organization,

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Speaker 2: and so that's been a fantastic acquisition.

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Speaker 1: It sure has people probably haven't heard as much about

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Speaker 1: broad Tech. It's sort of a behind the scenes provide

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Speaker 1: a little bit in some respects like Cordia, the state

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Speaker 1: owned enterprise, it does a lot of broadcasting stuff as well,

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Speaker 1: does some stuff there. But now you have this organization

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Speaker 1: with what over one hundred staff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's roughly, I mean it varies, but including subcontracts,

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Speaker 2: is over one hundred staff and working right across the industry.

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Speaker 2: So not only in television and radio. I've up working

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Speaker 2: for the three molebil operators, but one or two degrees

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Speaker 2: that tower companies can exterin forty south ICG and currently

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Speaker 2: doing for MGC.

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Speaker 1: So you've got this what fifty megahertz chunk of five

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Speaker 1: G spectrum. There was some money involved as well that

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Speaker 1: allowed you to make that acquisition. So what's the plan

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Speaker 1: Now you've got this incredible resource. Tell us about some

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Speaker 1: of the projects that you have underway that ultimately are

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Speaker 1: going to lead to this becoming sustainable financially, you know,

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Speaker 1: a really solid business, but also is going to flow

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Speaker 1: back to MARI in terms of MARI development and opportunities

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Speaker 1: for career development.

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Speaker 2: When we, of course we're negotiating for access to five

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Speaker 2: G spectrum, of course, the natural response for a number

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Speaker 2: of people who is what the heck are you're going

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Speaker 2: to use it for. One of the things that we

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Speaker 2: said right from the very start is we think there's

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to develop private five G networks. That's you know,

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Speaker 2: four G networks have been around for a while, but

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to play in the five G space was

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Speaker 2: we thought was a natural place for us to go to.

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Speaker 2: We are not going to go and try and compete

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Speaker 2: and do another two degrees. We've done that job. What

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Speaker 2: we want to do now is look at some of

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Speaker 2: the other ways that we can help improve productivity, health

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Speaker 2: and safety using wildest technologies and particular g widest technologies.

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Speaker 2: So that was where that was our starting point. The

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Speaker 2: way in which the technology is configured is different because

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Speaker 2: the use cases different. Here what mobile operators primarily get

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Speaker 2: their money from shipping data down to the devices, whereas

394
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: were the other way around. We want to ship data up.

395
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Speaker 2: Trying to manage configuration, which has been mandated here in

396
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Speaker 2: New Zealand, where we've done a lot of works. What

397
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Speaker 2: happens if you do try and change the way in

398
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Speaker 2: which the configuration works. How much does that create interference?

399
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Speaker 2: What are the impacts on the other operators? So we

400
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Speaker 2: did a lot of work in that space. So building

401
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: up our capacity and capability in the private five G

402
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 2: private networks was really important for us. And then going

403
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Speaker 2: on and investing in the space and putting our money

404
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: where our mouth was and going and winning a Centapore

405
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: was important for us because we believe that there was

406
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Speaker 2: the things that you can do with this technology that

407
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Speaker 2: you know, if you talk to the Centable guys, they're

408
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,719
Speaker 2: all about half and safety, make sure their people are

409
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: safe and how can they deploy technology. So they've tried

410
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: using the Meno mobile networks on the site, but it

411
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 2: doesn't work for them because they've got a really great

412
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Speaker 2: park right next door to them. Every time some rugby

413
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 2: game or some concerts on, it sucks up all the

414
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Speaker 2: bandwidths and they're left with none. So private five G

415
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Speaker 2: networks is the way to go for them.

416
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Speaker 1: Wellington's one of the busiest ports in the country. Actually,

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Speaker 1: it's got all the ferries that comes through Bluebridge and

418
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Speaker 1: interil NERD's got the logging ships going out, container ships

419
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Speaker 1: coming in. Incredibly busy, large campus there. As you say,

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Speaker 1: you've got the sky Stadium on one side, and I

421
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Speaker 1: didn't realize as well, but when ships pull up there.

422
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Speaker 1: You've got these massive, big steel hulled ships there which

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Speaker 1: interfere with the mobile networks as well. So to actually

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Speaker 1: build your own network with your own cell towers on

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Speaker 1: the site, they will have exclusive use of that better

426
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Speaker 1: than Wi Fi and not competing with others on the

427
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Speaker 1: public mobile network.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and there's some particular challenges in that space.

429
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Speaker 2: You've got ship that comes in, you've got containers that

430
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Speaker 2: gets plopped in front of the radios. It's a continuously

431
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Speaker 2: changing environment. It's something that we'd like to spend some

432
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 2: more time researching on as to how you can actually

433
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Speaker 2: create a really good service inside a changing environment like that.

434
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Speaker 2: And so we just recently partnered up with aut to

435
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: look research project in which you can have configurrale antennas

436
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: rather than the static ones that we have at the moment.

437
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: This will be the first commercial private five G network.

438
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 1: We've heard so much about these, mainly from the mobile vendors.

439
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: They've really been pushing them. Some of them have sort

440
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: of been put in place in other countries, mainly at

441
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: airport's big factories where they have a lot of devices

442
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: that need to connect in real time. So they want

443
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: low latency connections has been very slow to come to

444
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: New Zealand. But the resources you have, particularly with that

445
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: five G spectrum, that really gives you an advantage when

446
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: it comes to private five gen.

447
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: Well, yes it does, but it's not We're not relying

448
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: on that on its owning. We've still got to be innovative.

449
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: We've still going to deliver a great product and a

450
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: great service. While the spectrum side of it is important,

451
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 2: in my mind, that shouldn't be the deciding vector. That's

452
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 2: the service that you're developing and providing, and so ultimately

453
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 2: we just want to be the service provider providing innovative solutions.

454
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 2: We don't necessarily have to own the relationship with the

455
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: end customer. But what we do want to do is

456
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: to generate interest in this area and to generate opportunities.

457
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 2: So since the Centerble announcement, of course, now we've got

458
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: a whole range of boards around the country who are

459
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: all looking to do similar things, which is great.

460
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you aren't in competition necessarily with the big

461
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: three mobile operators. As you say, you know, you don't

462
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: need to own the end customer, and those guys have

463
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: a lot of customers already. So there's huge scope for

464
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: partnership there.

465
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: I guess, look, that's what that's our end game and

466
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: all of this, and from time to time we will

467
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: compete with the mobile operators I expect, but that's not

468
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 2: our fundamental strategies to go get to ed with. What

469
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: we do want to do is to generate interest. We

470
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: want to be able to be innovative. You know, the

471
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: mobile operators are facing a challenging time at the moment.

472
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 2: They're having to continue to invest in new technologies as

473
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: they come along. In five G S eight RN would

474
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: of course still be the retorations over time, and then

475
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: of course there will be other spectrum bands that potentially

476
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: they mightey have to invest in. At the same time,

477
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: they've got a customer base that is wanting to pay

478
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 2: less and expecting to get higher speeds and greater value

479
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 2: out of what they're spending on telecommunications. And then you

480
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 2: have the other part of this is the vendor environment,

481
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 2: whereby of course you've got the geopolitical challenges with Huawei,

482
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: who have provided some kind of competitive tension. I guess

483
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: amongst the vendors now you're probably down to two major

484
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: vendors now, and then of course the move to cloud

485
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: based solutions and virtualized services, and of course the only way,

486
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: the only way that mobile operators long term are going

487
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: to be able to survive, I think is they need

488
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: to be thinking about how do we reduce our cost

489
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: of infrastructure, both in terms of their investment upfront and

490
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: their ongoing maintenance costs, so you know we want to

491
00:26:59,600 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: pay it.

492
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's brilliant, and we've got technologies like open ran,

493
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: you know, the radio access network being able to share

494
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: that not everyone having to build their own one, as

495
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: you say, infrastructure sharing. When you talk to the telcos,

496
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: they're like, you know, this is a low margin business

497
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: and they thought five G would be the one that

498
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: added a premium. It hasn't worked out that way, so

499
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: they're going to be reluctant to invest in six G

500
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: unless it's going to lead to a big revenue boost

501
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: for them.

502
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 2: That's right, and thinking about how that ecosystem fits together.

503
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: So open ram is a really good example. You know,

504
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 2: how how do you mix and match. There's some real

505
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: advantages in buying all of your product from one vendor,

506
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 2: but there's also some advantages and going open rounds such

507
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,719
Speaker 2: as Vada Phones doing over in Europe. So our guys

508
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: have been experimenting and can now connect a range of

509
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: different calls to radios. We have a range of different radios,

510
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 2: We've got three different calls, and we can mix and

511
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: match all of those radios with all of our call

512
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 2: with three different calls. So that's the stuff that takes

513
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: a bit of time to develop. Yeah, and then of

514
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: course it's about then matching what are the technologies that

515
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: best match the use case that we're trying to solve

516
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: this particular project.

517
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: So hopefully this becomes a really financially successful venture and

518
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: therefore the proceeds the dividends of that will go back

519
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: to MARII. In terms of someone who's sitting in Northland

520
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: or the East Cape at the moment and can afford broadband,

521
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: it's really expensive. That's where the digital divide still really exists.

522
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 1: Is there anything on the roadmap where you might be

523
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: able to use that spectrum and your infrastructure expertise to

524
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: provide low cost or no cost broadband maybe via EWE

525
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: organizations to people who are left out at the moment.

526
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: That's an ongoing challenge to solve that digital equity problem.

527
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: I am a little bit cautious to take too much

528
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: of that on our own shoulders, because at the end

529
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: of the day, this is a government responsibility to make

530
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 2: sure that all New Zealanders get equitable access to telecommunications.

531
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: What we can do is think about what are some

532
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: of the other innovative solutions that will help. So one

533
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: of the things that we have been thinking about is

534
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: what happens in times of climate events. How can we

535
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: help communities build a resilient tele communications of a structure

536
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: they can turn on when their existing one fails for

537
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: whatever reason that might be. And so we've been experimenting

538
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: and building some prototypes around a very small mobile tem

539
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: that can automatically stand up a mobile network or a

540
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: Wi Fi network. It's low power ideally for us, that

541
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: will be run for months on end without the intervention.

542
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 2: So we do quite a bit of work to think

543
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: about what that might look like. And I think that

544
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: if we can, as we continue to iterate on the

545
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 2: work that we're doing in that space, there will be

546
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: opportunities for us to provide communities with the ability to

547
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: be stand alone. Because one of the things that we

548
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: had cyclone Gabriel, we had that resilient We talked about

549
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: how do you provide more resilience. The problem is that

550
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: one way that what to provide resilience is what more

551
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: batteries and what more generators? In more generators and you

552
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: only shift your supply chain problem to gasoline as opposed

553
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: to power. Having a solution which is only driven from

554
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: one end, and my view doesn't work. You need to

555
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: be able to give communities their own ability to be

556
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: able to resilient in their own space and not have

557
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: to rely completely on command and control from a central point.

558
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: And so that's what I'd like to see is that

559
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: we engage communities more in those things that are important

560
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: to them.

561
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: There's there young Mari people out there who want to

562
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: get into technology. You are the only person in the

563
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: class as an electrical engineer all those decades ago. But

564
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: now potentially if people are interested in a career in telecommunications,

565
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: they have a pathway.

566
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 2: Now.

567
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: Obviously there still good courses in that getting a job

568
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: there are the three telcos, but particularly for MARI engineers,

569
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: you've got an organization here that part of its remit

570
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: is to support that workforce. That's a huge opportunity.

571
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: So that's the part that we haven't talked too much about.

572
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: And that's what is the value for MARII out of

573
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: all this, because we're not doing this for sharhold returns.

574
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: So we're doing this because we think there's some value

575
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: that we can return to mari and to New Zealanders

576
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: are particularly the industry. So if you look at radio

577
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: engineers typically in New Zealand, they have all been trained, well,

578
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: we're almost all near retirement. We're training through the Post

579
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: Office days and BCL and all those government organizations. We

580
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: haven't had those training programs in place for a long time,

581
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: and so we're short of people with those skills and capability,

582
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: and they tend to be filled by bringing people offshore,

583
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: which is fine, but you've also got to be building

584
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: your own locals who have that opportunity to play the space. Now,

585
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: if you look at the engineering schools today, people thought

586
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: there used to be there a very different place and

587
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: really really pleased, you know, want to walk into these

588
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: engineering schools to see the range of people that are

589
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: there now as opposed to what it used to look like.

590
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: So it's fantastic. So what we're doing is that we've

591
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: got in place our relationships with tertiary educations to try

592
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: and promote the idea of telecommunications as a valid career path,

593
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: and of course there are a whole range of different

594
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: employment pathways. We are focusing at the moment on the

595
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: engineering site, but that's not the only place that they

596
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: will be focusing. So for example, we've got two engineers

597
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: that we pulled out we just completed their engineering degree

598
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: Canterbury too young many and we've brought them up to

599
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 2: Auckland and they are now becoming experts on deploying five G.

600
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: That's something that is you wouldn't get anywhere else. What

601
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: we want to do is to work with the industry

602
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: and come up with a program of internships that allows

603
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: people to get around a build experience in the industry.

604
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: So first of all, attract people into the industry, and

605
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: there's a whole pipeline. It's all the way back to

606
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: making sure that we've got the right students who are

607
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: being service schooled in STEM subjects, who are getting through

608
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: into the tertiary training, given the right work experience and

609
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: given a positive work experience, and then showing the choice

610
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: of roles and the choice of industry participants. So each

611
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: of the big em and o's and the big telcos

612
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: in our space they're all doing stuff in the space.

613
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: It's great, but there is no integrated approach to doing this,

614
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: unlike the energy sector, which does have an integrated approach

615
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: to attracting people into their sector. That's the role that

616
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: we hope that we can work with the telcos and

617
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: facilitate these opportunities. That's one part is the workforce and

618
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: of course the innovation space. We want to continue to

619
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: think about how do you use wildest technologies to help

620
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: solve real world problems. How our argument is this is

621
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: that you give us access to the resources should have

622
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: access to spectrum, we will build platforms upon which people

623
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: use that resource to innovate and create IP. And this

624
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: is the bigger you know, New Zealand Inc. Argument is

625
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 2: that thinking about spectrum resource, our spectrum resource, not just

626
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: as something that can be used to provide some services.

627
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: Consumers will pay some money to the companies and you know,

628
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: will be sweet thinking about how do we use that

629
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: access the spectrum to generate further IP which is of

630
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: interest to people off shore. So ultimately, long term, the

631
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: goal is to be innovative enough that you know, we

632
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: can build some companies who generate offshore revenue as a

633
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: result of our skills and exertise here in your seeland.

634
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: That the great thing about New Zealand is will be

635
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: small enough and edgile enough to do this. Trying to

636
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,919
Speaker 2: do this in other countries is really, really hard.

637
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: I just want to say, you know, congratulations on all

638
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: our hard work paying off. Now you've got a sustainable business,

639
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: You've got in perpetuity. You've got this great tongue in

640
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: the form of Malori Spectrum. You're getting engineers that probably

641
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't have had an opportunity before going into the industry.

642
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 1: It looks like a great opportunity. You've got the five

643
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: G private network going live at Centerport. You a first

644
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: in this country. I guess you've laid the groundwork for

645
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: what could be a really successful venture that actually really

646
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: does have impact for Mari.

647
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, we look, we're looking forward to I mean that

648
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: the technology stuff is really great, but what's important for

649
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: us is thinking about what's best for Mary and what's

650
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: best for alt at all, and that's really where we

651
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 2: want to play.

652
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: So thanks to Anthony Royle for coming on the podcast.

653
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: Some details about what Tuiteya is working on in the

654
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Speaker 1: show notes. You'll find them in the podcast section at

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Speaker 1: Business deesk dot co dot nz. Get in touch with

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Speaker 1: your feedback, ideas and guest suggestions. Email me on Peter

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Speaker 1: at Peter Griffin dot co dot nz or you'll easily

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Speaker 1: find me on linkin Blue Sky. Feel free to slide

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Speaker 1: into my DMS. Next week, Sarah Box, one of the

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Speaker 1: countries leading artificial intelligence policy experts, joins us on the show.

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Speaker 1: She's helping the government shape its approach to AI following

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Speaker 1: a stint in the US last year that took in

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Speaker 1: Trump's victory in the November presidential election, which ushered in

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Speaker 1: a significant change in direction for AI policy and regulation

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Speaker 1: in the US, which has truly global ramifications. If you're

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Speaker 1: listening on iHeartRadio, you can also subscribe to the podcast

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Speaker 1: in your podcast app of choice. Leave a review too

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Speaker 1: if you like the show, and we'll see you back

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Speaker 1: here next Thursday with me Peter Griffin for another episode

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Speaker 1: of the Business of Tech.

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Speaker 2: Catch it in