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Speaker 1: Now the Treaty Principals Bill has finally this afternoon passed

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Speaker 1: its first reading, but scenes earlier Parliament was suspended after

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Speaker 1: opposition parties, particularly the Maori Party and people in the

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Speaker 1: public gallery, interrupted the vote with a huge hucker. Willie

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Speaker 1: Jackson from Labor got himself thrown out after calling David

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Speaker 1: Seymour a liar and refusing to withdraw and apologize. Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Chris Luxon wasn't there to speak, but National's Paul Goldsmith,

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Speaker 1: who's obviously the Justice Minister, had that job for him. Paul, Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: I'm very well, thank you. So it seems to me

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Speaker 1: National's argument, which we've finally got, is basically twofold. Number one,

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Speaker 1: this bill is too simplistic for dealing with a complex issue.

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Speaker 1: Number two, it's distracting you guys from getting New Zealand

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Speaker 1: back on track. Is that about right?

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Speaker 2: No, I would expand on that and to say, yes,

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Speaker 2: it's a crude way to handle a very sensitive topic.

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Speaker 2: This thuty years of legislation that would be overturned in

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Speaker 2: the stroke of a pen. But secondly, our plan, we

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Speaker 2: believe is better because there are issues that need to

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Speaker 2: be dealt with in terms of where the Treaty sits

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Speaker 2: today and how we navigate our way between the desire

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Speaker 2: to honor the Treaty but also move away from the

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Speaker 2: psick expectations of people living in a modern democratic society.

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Speaker 2: And so our view is that we've got to do

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Speaker 2: that issue by issue, which is what we're doing on

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Speaker 2: the Marine Coastal area when we're talking about Marie Health Authority,

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Speaker 2: all those things issue by issue, rather than just trying

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Speaker 2: to do it with one sweep of the pen on

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Speaker 2: one bill, which is too simplistic.

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Speaker 1: Do you broadly agree or at all agree with David

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Speaker 1: Seymour when he says the courts have gone way too

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Speaker 1: activist on this in deciding that the principles of partnership exist.

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Speaker 1: For example, look.

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Speaker 2: There's a Minister of Justice. It's a good way to

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Speaker 2: get sectors to criticize the judiciary directly. I think that

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Speaker 2: the the onus on Parliament is to be clear about

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Speaker 2: what we mean in legislation, and so, you know, one

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Speaker 2: of the things that I'm going to be focusing on

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Speaker 2: next year in terms of the Treaty is going through

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Speaker 2: all the twenty ape or so major references in legislation

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Speaker 2: to the treaty and its principles and going through and

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Speaker 2: being very clear about what we do and what we

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Speaker 2: don't mean, and that I think is the role of

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Speaker 2: Parliament to be clearer about what we mean.

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Speaker 1: Level the most egregious principle, at least from the Act

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Speaker 1: Party's point of view, is the principle that this is

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Speaker 1: a partnership. Do you agree that the treaty is a partnership.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, that has been a legal sort of interpretation

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Speaker 2: put down every over the past few years. But what

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Speaker 2: exactly that means in any given circumstances is a debatable point.

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Speaker 2: But the vaguest Parliament is in its legislation, the more

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Speaker 2: room for interpretation there is. And so that precisely is

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Speaker 2: what we want to be clear. You know, when it

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Speaker 2: comes to the Act and the Education Act, and they've all.

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Speaker 1: Got these very big This is to the very heart

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Speaker 1: of what the Act Party is saying. Right, the courts

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Speaker 1: are coming up with principles like this, and then you

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Speaker 1: and I go, okay, well the principle exists, but your

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Speaker 1: interpretation of the principle is different to my interpretation of

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Speaker 1: the principle of partnership, which is not in the treaty.

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Speaker 1: This is a made up principle, and so what the

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Speaker 1: act party wants to do is be very clear about

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Speaker 1: what the principles are and what they mean. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's some logic to that, isn't there.

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Speaker 2: Well, But the point is that this has been This

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Speaker 2: is not sort of developed a last week or the

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Speaker 2: week before. It's been over thirty five years. And just

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Speaker 2: to sort of come along with one act, wampa, you're gone,

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Speaker 2: and then put it to a referendum the majority will

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Speaker 2: probably you know, win, and that it's no way to

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Speaker 2: sort of deal with what is a very sensitive and

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Speaker 2: difficult topic. And so our viewers, yes, address these issues

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Speaker 2: for the best way to do it is issue by issue.

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Speaker 2: So you know, we're dealing with the marine and coastal space.

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Speaker 2: We're dealing with that and we sought that out. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you're talking about the role with local government, you've

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Speaker 2: got to sort that out. But at holdess a Bottles

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Speaker 2: just like that is not a recipe to actually have

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Speaker 2: sustainable sort of good relations and that's what we want

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Speaker 2: to achieve.

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Speaker 1: Listen, Paul. On another subject, is the media bill dead?

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Speaker 2: Now, I wouldn't say that, but we're working our way

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Speaker 2: through that. I'd never said it was an easy or

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Speaker 2: simple matter, and so we haven't quite got to a

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Speaker 2: situation where we can bring it back to the house yet,

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Speaker 2: but as soon as I am able to let you

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Speaker 2: know about it, I.

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Speaker 1: Will, as Google got you over a barrel.

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Speaker 2: No, but we're dealing with, you know, a rapidly changing

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Speaker 2: media landscape and evolving international situation and so I'm just

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Speaker 2: working my way through what's the best outcome that we

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Speaker 2: can get for New Zealand. And so you know we

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Speaker 2: haven't got something to say, we will good.

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Speaker 1: Stuff, hey, Paul, Thank you very much as always Paul Goldsmith,

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Speaker 1: Justice Minister. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive and

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