1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Open banking is here, or at least the first real 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: version of it, with New Zealand's four biggest banks and 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: zed ASB B and Z and Westpac now required to 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: share the customer's data with trusted third parties with the 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: customer's authorization. 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 2: Of course, it promises to open up innovation in everything 7 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 2: from faster, more convenient retail and e commerce payments to 8 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: new budgeting and investment apps. 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: It could take a lot of hassle out of the 10 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: process of applying for a loan or mortgage, but. 11 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: Will open banking really unlock the competition our highly concentrated 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: and vastly profitable banking sector needs. 13 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: This week on the Business of Tech powered by two 14 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: Degrees Business, we took to two entrepreneurs on the frontlines 15 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: of open banking, hoping to take advantage of regulatory changes 16 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: to increase choice and competition in financial services. 17 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 3: And the UK, it took a while for uptake off 18 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 3: the open banking regime and certainly the same in Australia. 19 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 3: I think New Zealand's going to be much faster. The 20 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: customer product data built was really well designed and an 21 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 3: our view as a stands today is going to be great. 22 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 4: Eventually woman that was comin foundation later that everyone can 23 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 4: build upon and you can start thinking about, well, what 24 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 4: of the care you make the lines that could really 25 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 4: generate value, Like we're actually solving a problem that's value where. 26 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 5: People are willing to pay for more on open banking. 27 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: Coming up with our featured guests Blink Pays, Adrian Smith 28 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: and AKA Who's Josh Daniel shortly, but. 29 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: First we look at some of the big tech stories 30 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: making headlines this week, and we start with Harold Tech 31 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: editor Chris Keel's Tech Insider piece very interesting about Soul 32 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: Machines are really promising, New Zealand's startup founded by Greg 33 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: Cross and Mark Sagar. And just as a bit of background, 34 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: Soul Machines came up with what they call it a 35 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: digital brain. This was Mark Saga who came out of 36 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: where a digital So the idea was to take this 37 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: incredible intelligence they created and use it to feed digital 38 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: avatars that could have really sensible conversations in a customer 39 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: service context. So we saw a lot of pilot projects 40 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: pop up with the likes of A and Z and 41 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: Mercedes bend And in New Zealand, and it appears as 42 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: though both those founders, Greg cross Mark Sager are actually 43 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: gone from Soul Machines. 44 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: Bin Yeah, operationally and the directorship. They've both stepped back. 45 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: They're on an advisory role now, whatever you want to 46 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 2: make of that. If you are adjacent to the industry 47 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: as we are, you're kind of would have been hearing 48 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 2: these rumblings around Soul Machines for some time now that 49 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: it seems to have been struggling to find its feet 50 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 2: in the new world of AI. And that's kind of 51 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: what Chris Keel's story goes into the details of what 52 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: actually seems to have happened there. The question is that 53 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: people are asking is whether they were kind of disrupted 54 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: by generative AI, or whether they the tech was actually 55 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: more flash than bang, whether it actually seemed like it 56 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: was going to be really valuable to a lot of 57 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: consumers but ultimately just wasn't really what people were looking 58 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 2: for or weren't ready for. 59 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: Perhaps, and I was sort of expecting by now we 60 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: would be interacting with these digital avatars which you can 61 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: actually see rather than just talk to, like Siri or Alexa. 62 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: I thought they'd be everywhere now, but they're not. And 63 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: in the intervening few years since Solar Machines really got 64 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: going on these digital avatars. We've seen the rise of 65 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: generative AI, which Solar Machines has embraced. So they are 66 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: using chat GPT to power some of their sort of 67 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: off the shelf bots that you can buy relatively cheaply 68 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: to run your customer service. The big question mark is 69 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: over the digital brain technology. Is it too expensive, is 70 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: it too cumbersome to use? Is it actually still valuable? 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: And it may well be, but so Machines appear to 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: be running out of money. You wrote a story this 73 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: week looking at the financial statements. They've got cash and 74 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: TERMB deposits of twelve point three million dollars with net 75 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: cash outflows of thirty eight point one million for the 76 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: year ending March thirty one. 77 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was last year, twenty twenty three, So that 78 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: was what they had then and it's been twelve months 79 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: since then. That that's probably why they've reduced their head 80 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: count from two hundred and fifty three to seventy in 81 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: that time. 82 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: And we haven't heard anything about a significant new injection 83 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: of funding, have we? 84 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 5: No? 85 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: No, And again in that in Chris Kill's article he 86 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: talks about them potentially it looks like they've tried to 87 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: whether that was not as successful as they hoped, or 88 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: whether they couldn't quite get that off the ground, it's 89 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: not really obvious to us what actually happened. So yeah, 90 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: keeping an eye on things, and hopefully we'll hear something 91 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: a little more detailed from either the company's new CEO 92 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: or somebody soon, because they're keeping their cards very close 93 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: to their chest at the moment. 94 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: I'd love to see this company really succeed in its 95 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: original mission, which sounded fantastic and drew on some great technology, 96 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: and they've put a lot of work into this all 97 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: the way since twenty sixteen, I think when they set 98 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: out on this venture. But is this unfortunately going to 99 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: be a victim of this disruptive generative AI revolution where 100 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: things that were very expensive and complex to create with 101 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: suddenly with natural language processing and large language models and 102 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: training those models, you can arrive at something as good 103 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: for a fraction of the price. That's the concern. 104 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: You also have to look at just the cost to 105 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: open AI of training those models. It's billions of dollars, 106 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: and did zull Machine ever have those kinds of Microsoft 107 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 2: level pockets to be able to do something that would 108 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: ever challenge that level. They didn't really, but yeah, it 109 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 2: is difficult to know how big the general audience is 110 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: for face to face chatbots. Like I struggle to see 111 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 2: the value. And I was speaking to a former podcast guest, 112 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 2: Tim Warren the other day about this, and one of 113 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: the things he said to me, it's difficult when you're 114 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: facing a generation that doesn't even want to pick up 115 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: the phone and have a call to try and convince 116 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: them to have conversations with digital people. 117 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. And we were at an event with the Amazon 118 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: Australia New Zealand people last week and I was asking 119 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: one of them when to Genai sort of coming to 120 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: the Alexa, and they said, it is coming, you know, 121 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: watch out, it's not far away. So that will be 122 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: the big test. I think at the moment they're not 123 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: very useful those voice assistants really for anything other than 124 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: asking what the weather is or what's in my calendar. 125 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: But if they can use those large language models to 126 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: deliver much more lifelike and an intuitive answers to less 127 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: structured questions, that will be a game changer. But do 128 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: I need a digital representation of a person on a 129 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: screen fronting that for me personally. No, maybe millennials and 130 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: gen z don't give us stuff about that. They just 131 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: want to get a really good answer to their question, 132 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: and if it's speaking into their phone, they're happy to 133 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: do it. 134 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 5: Yeah. 135 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: And the other thing I guess is that you know, 136 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: there was a lot of hype for the metaverse that 137 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: some machines tried to ride there for a while, but 138 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: unfortunately that was a hype train without rails and didn't 139 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: gat very far. 140 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Looking a bit more broadly at AI, interesting report 141 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: from Judith Collin's office as the Minister of Science, Technology 142 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: and Innovation starting to give us a little bit of 143 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: an idea as to where she is directing the government 144 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: to take artificial intelligence, both from a regulation point of view, 145 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: but also trying to promote update offen. 146 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, they proactively released a cabinet paper that Judith Collins 147 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: submitted basically talking about how she wants to try and 148 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: get New Zealand using AI. A big part of it 149 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: for the private industry is that she they basically want 150 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: to say, don't be stressed about future regulations. 151 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 5: You can go and start playing now. 152 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: We're going to take a light touch regulation and if 153 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: anything crops up outside of the current legal frameworks. 154 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 5: Then we'll address that when it happens. 155 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: So maybe that will have the intended effect and get 156 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 2: people a little bit more excited to dive in and 157 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: use it. I don't know if anybody was sitting there 158 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: with their finger hovering over a button just waiting for 159 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: the regulatory nod from government or not, but maybe they were. 160 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: So this really carries on to theme I think from 161 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: the National Party and then with Judith Collins as sort 162 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: of Technology Minister and really passionate about AI light touch, 163 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: risk based approach to AIG, which is what the EU 164 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: has done, but what will happen here nowhere near is prescriptive? 165 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: That makes sense to me, but there's just a lot 166 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: of gray areas in our privacy law and our copyright law, 167 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: and what she's basically saying is where existing legislation can 168 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: deal with this, we will build on that if things 169 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: need to be tweaked, but we're not really looking at 170 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: a whole new regime which some countries and the European 171 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: Union have actually gone and introduced. So she's signaling very 172 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: much we're not going to be as heavy handed on that. 173 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: I guess the other thing the paper flags is a 174 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: role for GCD government chief Digital Officer who we had 175 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 1: on the show back last year. Paul James is in 176 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:53,119 Speaker 1: that role at the moment. She's basically signaling to that office, 177 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: we need to get the ball rolling here. You're going 178 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: to coordinate things across government when it comes to the 179 00:09:58,440 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: uptake of AI. 180 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 4: Yep. 181 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: She refers to strong leadership as needed, and I guess 182 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: she is putting her faith in Paul James to be 183 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: that strong leader and to maybe establish a strong leadership 184 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: team as well hopefully that can get together and do this. 185 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 2: She wants to get all the different portfolios to basically 186 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: come back and offer some ideas about how they could 187 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 2: potentially use artificial intelligence to improve the public services that 188 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: they offer, and then put those together and create a 189 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: cross portfolio working group headed by the Chief Digital Officer 190 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: to start getting that together basically to start thinking about 191 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: how they could possibly integrate some AI to improve public services. 192 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: So it's a start, you know, it is a start, 193 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: and hopefully it doesn't end up in bureaucratic quagmire. 194 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, relatively little in there about how to really jump 195 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: start use of AI across the economy in a private sector. 196 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: I think they just haven't really got to grips with 197 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: how sort of mb AS, the agency responsible for that 198 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: sort of stuff, would go about it. Other countries have 199 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: set up, for instance, the National Center for AI and 200 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: Australia to really push that along. The UK is going 201 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 1: big on that, as is the us SO question Mike 202 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: over that, particularly when we don't really have a strong 203 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: digital strategy at the moment. There is other stuff that 204 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: is happening that is useful. The AI Forum put out 205 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: their Blueprint for AI in r Tauro last week, so 206 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: I think that's good and they suggested a handful of 207 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: industries we should really focus on for AI. So and 208 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: maybe that's the more appropriate place for that to come from, 209 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: which is them to tell government, if you really want 210 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 1: to help us, this is the areas you should focus on. 211 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: Another interesting report out last week from the Institute of 212 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: Directors really useful guide for governing AI boards and business 213 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: leaders actually incorporating it into their existing frameworks for governance 214 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: rather than trying to create a whole new one. So 215 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: there's pragmatic stuff. There's a lot of good stuff actually 216 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: happening in New Zealand. It's probably not happening quickly enough. 217 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: To enable what we need to make the most of 218 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: this technology. But in some ways it's good that we're 219 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: just not under public pressure or some need to do 220 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: something jumping straight to regulation that may not be fit 221 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: for purpose down to track. 222 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 5: Yeah it's a slow start, but it's a start. 223 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: Now. Open banking quietly arrived officially on May thirty, with 224 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: our four big banks now required to run secure channels 225 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: to third parties such as FinTechs and online retailers, allowing 226 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: customer account and transaction data to be shared. 227 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: It's a real milestone for the fintech sector, which is 228 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 2: looking at the huge profitability of our big banks and 229 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 2: seeing ample scope. It takes some market share, if not 230 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: in the core business of taking deposits and issuing loans, 231 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 2: at least in the financial services that wrap around the banks, 232 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 2: such as online payments. 233 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: We've been slow to join the open banking party. Other 234 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: countries are frankly way ahead, but finally been we seem 235 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: to have progress on open banking APIs or application programming interfaces, 236 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: with the Big four playing ball and Kiwi Bank also 237 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: set to join the open banking regime from twenty twenty six. 238 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's coming. 239 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: It's finally kind of here in a way, it's really 240 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 2: relying on the Consumer Product Bill which was recently read 241 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: before it actually gets into force legislatively. But Payments in 242 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 2: New Zealand and its API center have actually been doing 243 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 2: quite a good job at pushing ahead with the kind 244 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 2: of with the legislation there in the in the background, 245 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 2: saying it's coming, so let's get working on it now. 246 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: And they're the ones that have set these timeframes just 247 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 2: for the big four banks moment, but they do have 248 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 2: about a ninety five percent share of the market in 249 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: New Zealand, so it's pretty pretty dominant anyway. 250 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: So take us through this ben there are a whole 251 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: bunch of startups out there that are just chomping at 252 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: the bit to get hold of customer data from banks 253 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: in an accessible format that allows them to do what exactly. 254 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: What are some of these companies and what are the 255 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: sorts of services they're looking to jump on the open 256 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: banking bandwagon to deliver to kiwis. 257 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: You've got the likes of blink pay, who we're going 258 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: to speak to Adrian Smith shortly from blink pay quick Pay. 259 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: They similar to blink pay, where they are a payments provider, 260 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: so they can allow merchants to quickly and easily take 261 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: payments directly from people's bank accounts using an API. You've 262 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 2: got the likes of Akoho, So they're open banking, but 263 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 2: they are actually not actually using APIs at the moment. 264 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 2: You'll hear a bit about that from Josh Daniel in 265 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: the conversation. They use an older form of open banking 266 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: called screen scraping, which is a little bit controversial. And 267 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: then you've got the likes of Pocketsmith. They help with budgeting. 268 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 2: They provide you with insight into your bank accounts so 269 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: you can see you where your money's being spent, and 270 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: you can set budgets for things and do all kinds 271 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: of clever stuff. So while it sounds kind of boring 272 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: and dull and kind of like what's the point of 273 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: it all, the reality is is that the banks have 274 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: a huge amount of your data. This is data that 275 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: is about you, about the stuff that you have been 276 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: spending money on. 277 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: We've sort of got Stockholm syndrome. I think in New Zealand. 278 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: We've been told that, you know, you need to have 279 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: a stable banking system, so they cane us on fees, 280 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: but at least it's a stable system and your bank 281 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: isn't going to collapse and take all your money. But 282 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: the consequence of that is we just haven't seen the 283 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: innovation in new services. It's not until you go to 284 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: Singapore or China or even a UK and you go, 285 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: my god, look at the diversity of players. They are 286 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: bigger markets, but just the sorts of services that they're 287 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: offering a lot of them at based, very accessible convenience 288 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: services that we just don't really have here. And I 289 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: think that's when people realize, wow, we're so far behind 290 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. We were ahead with f poss and 291 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: that in the eighties, but we have slipped behind. So 292 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: that's what we definitely need to address. That's what the 293 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: legislation is aimed at. So here's Ben's interview with a 294 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: car who's Josh Daniel and Blink Pays Adrian Smith. Who 295 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: are really going to articulate for us exactly what the 296 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: promises of open banking. 297 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: Kyodo, Hello, welcome to the Business of Tech Josh and Adrian. 298 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 5: How's it going well, Kyoder? 299 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: Very good, good, Thank you so much for joining us. 300 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: So you guys are both on the third party provider side, 301 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: of this open banking progression that we've been slowly pushing 302 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 2: towards over the last several years. So do you want 303 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: to just very quickly give us a quick bit of 304 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 2: information about what your companies do, Adrian, Oh. 305 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, So blink pay we position ourselves as a 306 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 4: paytech because that was the first thing that has been 307 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 4: building open banking standards in the payment initiation APIs. But 308 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 4: now the account information APIs are coming along, we're going 309 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,959 Speaker 4: to be repositioning ourselves as an integration player. And last 310 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 4: so not too the similar to the work that are 311 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 4: coding with Josh and Josh ok. 312 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. So Kahu is an open finance intermediary. We focus 313 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: our work on the New Zealand market only, so we 314 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 3: provide data integrations with New Zealand banks and other financial 315 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 3: service providers. So what we do is enable people building 316 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 3: consumer products to use a single API for access to 317 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 3: those data integrations. And then there are other parts of 318 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 3: our service that do things like transaction and Richmond other 319 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 3: things like that that we think that at the Ushalaya. 320 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: Cool, thanks so much. So API actually is what we're 321 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: going to be starting a conversation with. So the technically 322 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: it stands for Application Programming Interface, I believe. But what 323 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 2: that basically means is it's a piece of software that 324 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: allows two different pieces of software to. 325 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 5: Share data kind of freely. 326 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: That's an oversimplification obviously, but that's kind of been the 327 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 2: main focus, I guess in recent times for open banking. 328 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 2: On May thirty we saw one standard come in for APIs. 329 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: We've got another one coming in November. So the May 330 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: thirty one was about payments. So what has that offered 331 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: in terms of capability for people who can plug into 332 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: those APIs. 333 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 4: Yes. So one of the really cool things about the 334 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 4: Open Banking Paymentiation APIs is if you're connected to a 335 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 4: third party, like a payment gateway, you can enable your 336 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 4: customers to pay directly buy from their own bank accounts 337 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 4: and you know, as an alternative means to using cards 338 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 4: to make those payments in the e commerce space. And 339 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 4: as a consequence, because we're going outside of the card 340 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 4: scheme rails, the cost profile is materially lower than if 341 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 4: you're going by the card schemes. And I'm sure we 342 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 4: all recently saw that paper from ComCom that highlighted that 343 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 4: Bees and MasterCard charge about ninety five billion annually in 344 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 4: card payments and for the tune of about a billion 345 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 4: dollars in fees. So the open banking standard and the 346 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 4: fee structures with the banks are materially lower than that, 347 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 4: and so we have the opportunity and ability to offer 348 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 4: the everyday kiwis in New Zealanders a lower price point 349 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 4: in order to process payments and not go into debt 350 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 4: for that. 351 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 5: Got cha, Josh, anything to add to that. 352 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: I guess just to set the scene a little more, 353 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 3: a car who operates with unregulated forms of open banking 354 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 3: for the last three and a half years. We launched 355 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 3: because we felt that the regulation was coming soon and 356 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 3: it's taken longer than we expected. But the idea was, 357 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 3: let's get things moving and evolve into the purpose built 358 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 3: regulation which looks like is coming in New Zealand. So 359 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 3: what we do is provide data and payment connectivity. And 360 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 3: we have over fifty customers that made from governments, corporates 361 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: to FinTechs, and that's a range of enduring data consents, 362 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 3: one off data consents, and enduring payment consents. The only 363 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 3: thing we don't do is a one off payment consent. 364 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 3: So this first release on the thirtieth of May from 365 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 3: the Big four Banks is a one off payment consent API, 366 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 3: which is the only functionality that we don't provide, So 367 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 3: this first release wasn't relevant to us that looking a 368 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 3: head to the next release on thirtieth November, which was 369 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 3: a one off and enduring data consent API, that is 370 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 3: where for the Big four banks, their first release will 371 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 3: enable functionality for we think at least six of our 372 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,239 Speaker 3: customers depending on what gets delivered in that release, out 373 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 3: of the optional functionality. 374 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: So what does that mean the data that it's going 375 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: to be accessible? What is this transaction data that's supposedly 376 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: so useful? 377 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 3: So I think that the canonical example in New Zealand 378 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 3: is zero, where if you use zero, you want your 379 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 3: transaction data to be hooked up into the accounting software 380 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 3: and you don't want to manually import it each time 381 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: you want to do bank reconciliation and zero. So there's 382 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 3: a whole lot of dasy use cases like that where 383 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 3: you as a consumer might want to grant access to 384 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 3: some third party service. So some of the common ones 385 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 3: are budgeting tools. So if you allow your data to 386 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 3: automatically flow in, a historical budget can be automatically generated 387 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 3: and then you can extrapolate that forward to make budgeting 388 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 3: more accessible and easier to tract to. You could do 389 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: nit worth tracking, which basically aggregates the balances of your 390 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 3: financial accounts and allows you to see that high level 391 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 3: view of how you're tracking over time accounting and text 392 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: as a really common one. One that's been in the 393 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 3: news recently is Prosaic, which has a tool for business 394 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 3: owners to find tax deductible expenses and then make it 395 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 3: easier to similar to claim to IID. So all of 396 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 3: these use cases require financial data. That's the customer's data, 397 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: and what open banking does is make it autable or 398 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 3: easily portable. And that could be a one off access 399 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 3: to a third party, or it could be an ongoing 400 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 3: access which people are familiar with from accounting software or 401 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 3: personal finance software. 402 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: So that's kind of where we're at. But I think 403 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: it's also worth mentioning that this is only for the 404 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 2: big four. 405 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 5: Banks at the moment. 406 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 2: There are many banks across New Zealand, although I think 407 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 2: it's what is it, ninety five percent of the population 408 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: are covered by those big four, so it's a big swath. 409 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: But then we're also seeing some laggards and I guess. Also, 410 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: the question is with these API timeframes that we've got 411 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 2: May and then November and then maybe another six months 412 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 2: or the next one, is that getting us where we 413 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: need to be quick enough is leaving provision for other 414 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 2: banks to kind of slowly catch up. Does that make 415 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 2: sense as well? 416 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 4: So the big four banks, depending on your definition, they 417 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 4: have anywhere from eighty five to ninety percent of the 418 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 4: bank to New Zealand populace. And from our perspective, for 419 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 4: any network to work and feed on through the platform revolution, 420 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 4: it's all our network effects. And in our case in 421 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 4: New Zealand, ninety nine percent of New Zealand is a bank. 422 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 4: And so for a network to really take off, obviously 423 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 4: having the full major banks is a really good starting point. 424 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 4: But actually we want everyone to be included and involved, 425 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 4: right because the value of a network comes from its participants. 426 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 4: So I remember when I was at university, I was 427 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 4: one of the first mugs to get a mobile phone 428 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 4: and have I guess how many people like a call? 429 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 4: No one, I was the only one, so that netwok 430 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 4: wasn't worth crack then, But then fast forwards, today everyone's 431 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 4: in a smartphone, right, so the more people on the network, 432 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 4: the more valuable it becomes. And so for us, that's 433 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 4: a pretty interesting point. And I think the other really 434 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 4: interesting point around major banks and sort of the other 435 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 4: banks and laggards is one of the really interesting things 436 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 4: that we've observed in the Zealand context is all it 437 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 4: takes for one major provider API provider to not want 438 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 4: to participate and it can nobble the whole thing because 439 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 4: when you go out and you speak to in our 440 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 4: case we're B to B two C, so we're other businesses. 441 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 4: We talk to them, we saill say, hey, this new thing, 442 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 4: it's magic du du da and they say, oh, well 443 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 4: call us from the Big four on and you're like, ah, okay, 444 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 4: well we're trying. And so that's part of the challenge 445 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 4: is that's the first objection always raised ball us in 446 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 4: the Big four on right, because as a business you 447 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 4: can understand the perspective. I don't want to have to 448 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 4: only get a partial solution if I'm going to commit 449 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 4: time of resources to a thing. 450 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 3: I think we need to acknowledge that in the current environment, 451 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 3: there is nothing compelling the banks to offer API services 452 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 3: to third parties. It is voluntary, and there is regulation 453 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 3: coming that will compel data holders to provide these services, 454 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 3: but at the moment there is nothing. So if we 455 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 3: waited for the slowest bank to be part of this, 456 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 3: it just wouldn't happen until there is regulation. So if 457 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 3: you think about this from a consumer's perspective, the upgrade 458 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 3: that is coming from these purpose built APIs. The main 459 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 3: upgrade is that you can authenticate directly with your bank 460 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 3: and grant the consent there rather than doing that authentication 461 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: via a third party. And so we don't actually need 462 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: all the banks to have these services available to start 463 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 3: getting the benefits. Even if one bank is ready and 464 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 3: you can switch that customer across to the purpose built API, 465 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 3: those customers of that bank will have a better experience. 466 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 3: So we can do this on a bank by bank basis, 467 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: and for each bank integration you just upgrade to the 468 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 3: best API that is available, so it makes it okay 469 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 3: to do this in an editative way. I think the 470 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 3: thing we need to be in mind, though, is that 471 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 3: the functionality that these APIs do can only deliver to 472 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 3: so many use cases, and so we shouldn't expect this 473 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 3: thirty May release in the standing November release to change 474 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 3: the world because the functionality that's available is not at 475 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 3: parasy with what's a market already. So there are some 476 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 3: use cases that will not be able to migrate, yet 477 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 3: they will come at a later stage when iterations on 478 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: those APIs have been delivered. So we always try to 479 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: just be sober about expectations because we can't expect a 480 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 3: whole lot to take off if the APIs themselves can't 481 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 3: deliver everything that's in market already. 482 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. So if I could just respond to that and 483 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 4: challenge that the statement of the wouldn't happen, which is 484 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 4: a bit of an absolute statement, because I'm happy to 485 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 4: report that as of this afternoon we signed the last 486 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 4: of the big four major banks. 487 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 2: Congratulations on the commercial agreement. 488 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. So there's a scuttle but that it requires regulation 489 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 4: to get this done, and that's how it worked in 490 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 4: the other jurisdictions I know where I did this. In 491 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 4: the UK, the regulator says, you nine go together, play nice. 492 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 4: If you don't, we'll beach out. Okay, fine, And so 493 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 4: it's been different not having that regulatory stick to move 494 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 4: every and along. So, as Josh alluded to, right, there's 495 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 4: going to be folks in the caravan to move slower 496 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 4: than others, and if you're trying to do it together, 497 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 4: it's pretty hard to do it if they are slower members. 498 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 4: But what I would say at all that, though, is 499 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 4: we got there without the regulatory stick. It may not 500 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 4: as been as quicker or as easy it would have liked, 501 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 4: but we've got them there. 502 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 5: I mean, yes, you did in a way. 503 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 2: But I would say that the banks have known that 504 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: there was the regulatory stick hovering just out of frame 505 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: for some time. So while that the stick wasn't necessarily 506 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: descending fast, it definitely may have been in their peripheral. 507 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, And I'm pretty certain that's what's managed because 508 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 4: like the thirty may date, setting that to the side, 509 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 4: like as a thing, what it did was it meant 510 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 4: the four major banks all arrived at that date pretty 511 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 4: much at the same time. So one of the reasons 512 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 4: why we've been pretty quiet the last six seven weeks 513 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 4: is because we've been doing four integrations and four commercial negotiations. 514 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 4: It's been quite the to do. But having that line 515 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 4: in the sand caused a reaction and a response which 516 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 4: has actually been I think going to be net beneficial 517 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 4: once everyone starts to join in and get involved. 518 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,239 Speaker 2: Now so does that make you then does that make 519 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 2: Blink Pay the first third party outside of Worldline, which 520 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 2: has had them for some time to have API agreements 521 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 2: with all four of the big banks. 522 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 4: Yes, that's correct. Although what I would say though, is 523 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 4: in this scenario, Worldline are the to AKNA and the 524 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 4: to a kind of ten relation, we are the juniors, 525 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 4: like Full Credit. They spent seven or eight years getting 526 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 4: the four major banks right, and I can understand the 527 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 4: concern of hey, this is this is ever going to happen, 528 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 4: and so we've got them there in three and so 529 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 4: we feel very fortunate to have done so, and we 530 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 4: think because of industry efforts as well as regularly oversight, 531 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 4: even though there hasn't been a really hard push, that's 532 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 4: allowed us to get there at less than half the 533 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 4: time that wild One got there. 534 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: Great, let's talk a little bit now about I guess 535 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 2: what you referred to before, Josh as a unregulated open banking, 536 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 2: and I think the common parlance for it is screen scraping, right, 537 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 2: which is where you have a tool that can access 538 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: a bank account on behalf of a customer, and it 539 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 2: can read the information on that online banking and then 540 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 2: make changes et cetera, et cetera. The benefits that are 541 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: from that, and it's something that was talked a little 542 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: bit about in the Australian Open Banking Palava, which will 543 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: cover shortly, but it is that it's it's free, There 544 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: are no transaction fees, no any other kind of fees 545 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: that go. 546 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 5: With it, and it seems to work. 547 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 2: And there is a conversation maybe about how secure it 548 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: actually is, but there have been people have pointed out 549 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: there have been no major breaches due to screen scraping, 550 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 2: So why then do we need APIs if we have 551 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: a functional, serviceable approach. 552 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, it's a good question, and I guess to 553 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 3: give context to the uptake. 554 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 4: You know, in New. 555 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 3: Zealand there are more than a million kiwis that would 556 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 3: use in a form of unregulated open banking or screen 557 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 3: scraping process in a product every year, and it's similar 558 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 3: in other countries where there are products that use those processes. 559 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 3: The major drawbacks of the current methods is that, first 560 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: of all, to create the connection between bank account and 561 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 3: the third party service, you have to share your log 562 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 3: in credentials with a third party and that is clearly suboptimal. 563 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 3: You shouldn't have to do that in order to create 564 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 3: the connection, so that is the major upgrade. The second 565 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 3: important point is that with purpose built APIs you can 566 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 3: clearly define the scope of access that you want to 567 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 3: share with a third party. So those are two upgrades 568 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 3: we're going to get from purpose built APIs through the 569 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 3: regulatory regime or voluntary APIs that become available. But I 570 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: do think it is an autumn like this whole open 571 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 3: banking regulation movement has come about because of all of 572 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 3: the other forms of open banking that have had products 573 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 3: built on them for the last twenty years. So without 574 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 3: Mint dot Com in the US, without Zero and New Zealand, 575 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: without a clear show of consumer demand, we wouldn't have 576 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 3: had this move towards open banking regulation. And the way 577 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 3: I see it, like obviously all this current activity should 578 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 3: have migrate into the regulated system when it can, but 579 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 3: we do need to make the most of what has 580 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 3: been done to date to see what functionality there is 581 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 3: demand for and it use as a benchmark for whether 582 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 3: the regulated system is at parracy or doing the job 583 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: it needs to. In Australia, there's been a whole lot 584 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 3: of recent debate brought on by an Australian Banking Association 585 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 3: study about what has happened in Australian's version of regulated 586 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 3: open banking and the uptake over there, and the uptake 587 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 3: there hasn't been great. There hasn't been a lot of 588 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 3: migration from the unregulated forms into the regulated system, and 589 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 3: we want to avoid that in New Zealand. We want 590 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 3: to make sure that our regulated system is designed so 591 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 3: that it is compelling to use that system instead, so 592 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 3: that those consumer benefits are it. 593 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 2: So how do we do that, agrim maybe you went 594 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: away in here. How do we make it so that 595 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 2: a system that is essentially more expensive becomes more attractive? 596 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 4: We'll see the level of expense isn't actually been determined 597 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 4: because the access to the data action function. None of 598 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 4: the major banks have actually set the stall out around pricing, 599 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 4: and so as a precedent when the UK did open banking, 600 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 4: the bank's aid all the costs. Because let's think about 601 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 4: this logically, underneath the customer product Data bill and the 602 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 4: consumer data right whereby this is my data? Like, are 603 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 4: you going to charge me to access my data? 604 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: Huh? 605 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 4: That doesn't seem to stack up logically, and so I'd 606 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 4: be curious to see which way Minister Bailey and NBG 607 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 4: with all of this in terms of any cost profile, 608 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 4: because suddenly you've got your cost to get your data 609 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 4: from banking and then electricity and then telco and the 610 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 4: insurance and everyone who gets designated, and you then run 611 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 4: into the issues of the quality right and ten tility 612 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 4: Like if there'll be some socioeconomic groups I'm Maldy, so 613 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 4: I'm gonna be quite sympathetic who may not be able 614 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 4: to access their own data because they can't afford it. 615 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 4: So there's some social economic issues that play there and 616 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 4: titility issues. But coming back to the question around kind 617 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 4: of how do we get this to work? I think 618 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 4: one of the challenges we have we've seen the screen scraping, 619 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 4: and this is part of my previous experience in another 620 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 4: world in the UK is I would be at a 621 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 4: big major bank and i would see a screen scraper 622 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 4: come in and then I'd see all of the audit 623 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 4: logs just delete it and I'd have no idea what 624 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 4: they did. Clueless, I was like, what the hell has 625 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 4: happened here? And I would then look at it and like, well, 626 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 4: I don't know what the permitted purpose was, but the 627 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 4: amount of data that's been sort of deleted from our 628 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 4: logs suggested they've gone way beyond what was the original 629 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 4: permissions and authorizations for that. And so that kind of 630 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 4: stuff really gave me a difficult sense of can I 631 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 4: can I get comfortable with this? And so I spoke to 632 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 4: some of these young bankcine this happened in Britain. Do 633 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 4: you guys have that have it today? I? Oh, why 634 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 4: don't we talk about that? And there's various reasons and 635 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 4: logical other banks don't talk about that. So there are 636 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 4: aspects of that. And so for me, it's analogous to like, Okay, 637 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 4: I've just met you, here's the key to my house. 638 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 4: You're going to do that one thing and then lock up. 639 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 4: But then I don't know if they're rummaging through my 640 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 4: drawls and such. So I just can't get comfortable that 641 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 4: kind of as as an approach. And so and then 642 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 4: there's the other issue right where okay, then the regulated 643 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 4: version of things, the bank has to keep the consent 644 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 4: and you need to be no, no, what is the 645 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 4: concent this transparency of what it's for for how long? 646 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 4: What purpose? And you can go edit or a ment 647 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 4: or delete the consent at the bank or at the 648 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 4: third party within the screen scraping process, it'll be down 649 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 4: to the third party alone for that consent. And then 650 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 4: I don't know how many people actually know what they've 651 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 4: signed up to where they can go to don any 652 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 4: of the things that the CPD bill is going to 653 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 4: bring in. 654 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: So should there be an attempt to regulate out screen 655 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 2: scraping once we do get the regulation come in around 656 00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 2: data sharing? 657 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 4: View? Right, I keep on talking about an orderly exodus 658 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 4: screen scrapping. To Josh's point, right, there are certain capabilities 659 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 4: in market today that is superior to what the standards 660 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 4: bringing in initially. And as the saying goes right, necissity 661 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 4: is the mother of invention, and the fact that a 662 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 4: million keys have engaged with these services suggests that there's 663 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 4: demand for it. There's linked to demand. Well, there's actual 664 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 4: demand for that. And so to Josh's point, which I 665 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 4: agree with, it's like, well, we can't just cut them off, 666 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 4: but we need to find some way to say, Look, 667 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 4: as we've got secure and stable and supporting methods that 668 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 4: allow people to access these data services in order to 669 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 4: do really cool things to help them be better off, 670 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 4: we then need to unwind the other things that aretas 671 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 4: stable and un and secure. So I guess that's my 672 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 4: view on that is, if we could have an exit 673 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,959 Speaker 4: from the unsupported sort of means to do the supported means, 674 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 4: they'd be really good because I think I don't know 675 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 4: if you unsaw the first three of the CPD bill 676 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 4: where Minister Bailey spoke around banks have to get better 677 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 4: at making sure there's no impersonated access people coming in 678 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 4: and doing stuff like that seemed like a pretty strong 679 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 4: signal that he's putting up he's sending out a caller 680 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 4: cutting off to the screen scrapers that he's going to 681 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 4: do something about or he's going to get someone else 682 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 4: do something about that soon. 683 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, and how does that sit with you, Josh, being 684 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: you know, as you have relied on these Owen regulated 685 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 2: methods for some time. 686 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 3: Look, we'd love to use purpose built APIs instead, and 687 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 3: the sooner that can happen, the better. So we support 688 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 3: the Customer Product Data Bill that Adri mentioned before, which 689 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 3: is the Consumer Data Right regime that New Zealand is developing. 690 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 3: We offered to banks to build APIs for them so 691 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 3: that they could do authentication in their own environment. We 692 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 3: do everything we can to bring about this world faster. 693 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,919 Speaker 3: So yes, we definitely support that, but in my view, 694 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: we need to keep the market pressure to show demand 695 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 3: and it's incumbent on the data holders to come up 696 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 3: to speed with where the market's at rather than lose 697 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 3: the innovation and competition that has been driven by the 698 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 3: market over the last twenty years. So yep, I'm up 699 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 3: for an orderly transition at the right time and light 700 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 3: with the iterative approach to rolling out purpose built APIs. 701 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 3: It should walk hand in hand with that because more 702 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 3: and more use cases should be able to transition as 703 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 3: new iterations of the APIs are rolled out. You know, 704 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 3: in the UK it took a while for uptake of 705 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 3: the open banking regime and certainly the same in Australia. 706 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 3: I think New Zealand's going to be much faster for 707 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,839 Speaker 3: a couple of reasons. One is that we've got both 708 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 3: read and write access probably in scope from day one, 709 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 3: which is for example, not the case in Australia where 710 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 3: it's just read access. And the second major one is 711 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 3: that the Customer Product Data bill is really well designed. 712 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 3: We truly have taken the lessons from the UK and 713 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 3: Australia and other developing regimes around the world, and an 714 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 3: argue that consumer Data Right regime in New Zealand as 715 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 3: a stands today, it's going to be great. We're excited 716 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 3: to use it and we think we'll bet be able 717 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 3: to migrate a lot of our traffic early on, which 718 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 3: will show success in the early years, which is what 719 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 3: we really want. We need to make the cost benefit 720 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 3: of this regulation worth it, and we think there is 721 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 3: a good chance of that at the New Zealand region. 722 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 2: One kind of trump card that some people like to 723 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 2: pull out quite often is like mortgages. You know, the 724 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 2: open banking comes up and they go but mortgages, and 725 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 2: expect people to go, yeah, you're right, let's forget open banking. 726 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe I'm exaggerating, but the argument is that you know, 727 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 2: people have mortgages with their banks, that this makes them 728 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 2: really sticky, so open banking isn't going to increase competition anyway, 729 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 2: and that mortgages are actually the key fundamental profit center 730 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 2: for financial services. So financial service like you guys, you 731 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 2: know you're not actually going to be able to make 732 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: any money from what you're doing. I compete with the 733 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 2: banks in the future do you want to kind of 734 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 2: talk to a little bit about the influence of mortgages 735 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 2: of this, the power they have over consumers, and the 736 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 2: whether that is a fair statement. 737 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah. I think there are a few things 738 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 3: in there, and one that I'd like to seize out 739 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 3: is this idea around bank switching, and I think a 740 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 3: lot of people conflate bank switching with open banking. I 741 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,240 Speaker 3: think a lot of people get ideas around bank switching 742 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 3: from the talco industry, where the idea is you really 743 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 3: only want one number. Banking is different. It's okay to 744 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 3: have ten accounts, and if you move to a new 745 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 3: financial product at a different provider, it's okay to leave 746 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 3: your transactional banking with the provider you're already with. When 747 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 3: it comes to mortgages, one of the things that's been 748 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 3: happening over the last decade in New Zealand is an 749 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 3: increase in proportion of mortgages that are originated via brokers, 750 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,720 Speaker 3: and as that has increased to now more than sixty percent, 751 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 3: there's an increased likelihood that the customer will switch the 752 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 3: provider of that home line because they're less weirdded to 753 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 3: just signing up with whatever is offered by the bank 754 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 3: that they mostly interact with. So if we just really 755 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,720 Speaker 3: quickly go through how homeland process looks for an applicant 756 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 3: right now, most people on average are going to a 757 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 3: broken so they'll have a discussion. They'll be sent a 758 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 3: link to use screen scraping to simplify the application process 759 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 3: and fetch or clase all the financial data for the application. 760 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 3: The broker will then assess it, provide some advice if 761 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 3: the applicant wants to. That broker will then send out 762 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 3: that financial data, usually over email, to a bunch of lenders. 763 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 3: People on the other end will get that data. They'll 764 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 3: spend hours going through it, come up with a view 765 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 3: on yes no. Here are the terms of yes, back 766 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 3: through the broker and back to the applicant. So with 767 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 3: open banking, it definitely improves that it should be more 768 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 3: secure and easier for the applicant to do the application form, 769 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 3: it should be easier for the broker to digitally interact 770 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 3: with the lenders, and the lenders should be getting machine 771 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 3: readable data that they can then process automatically or at 772 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 3: least more automatically than they currently do. Along that whole chain, 773 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,879 Speaker 3: there are improvements that open banking should bring to make 774 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 3: the whole process of refinancing you're playing for a loan 775 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 3: easier for an applicant, which should and decrease the inertia 776 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 3: of movement. 777 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 2: So it's not just then it's a little bit more 778 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 2: complicated than saying, well, people have their mortgages with X bank. 779 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 2: You know, your point is that under open banking that 780 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 2: actually becomes a lot more fluid that yes, they might 781 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 2: have a mortgage with the bank, but by being able 782 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 2: to kind of have a service that will say, hey, 783 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 2: you've got your mortgage with this bank, do you want 784 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 2: us to check around and see what else there is, 785 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 2: that could start to actually increase competition and put pressure 786 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: on the market. 787 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And so if you're able to port 788 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 3: your data to another provider and say what can you 789 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 3: do for me, and that's a simple process, then you 790 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 3: should be able to switch products easily. Does it mean 791 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,399 Speaker 3: you need to switch banks or wherever you have your 792 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 3: payment set up or wherever you receive your income. It's 793 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 3: the other products that may be more important, and it 794 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 3: should be easy to compare and switch those. 795 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 2: And what about the idea of profitability that you know, 796 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 2: mortgages are the only way really that banks make most 797 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 2: of their money, and that offering financial services that don't 798 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 2: include hefty amounts of interest on loans isn't going to 799 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 2: be a profitable future for a company agent. 800 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 4: The way banking works apologies that I'm teaching you on 801 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,400 Speaker 4: a stuck eggsit right is banks are really preoccupied with 802 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 4: net interest marginal nimbs and so you know, quick explainer, 803 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,399 Speaker 4: deposit in, give you tiny bit of interest, lend it out, 804 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 4: charge a lot of interest, and neet the difference net 805 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 4: interest margins. That's what they do and that's been the 806 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 4: banking model for hundreds of years. And when you look 807 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 4: at the New Zealand banks, you see that typically the 808 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 4: retail banks have a n them of about two point one percent. 809 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 4: Some of the clever ones have taken very particular views 810 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 4: on markets, like for instance, Heartland's net interests manage about 811 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 4: eight percent. But that's what they're doing. That's what they 812 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 4: used to. They used to making money off of interest, 813 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 4: and then they used to they also make money for 814 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 4: things like a fees and charges. And when I was 815 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 4: at Barkleys, we used to refer to that as like 816 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 4: bad income. We didn't want to make money from overdraft 817 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 4: charges and unplaned overdrafts and interest on all of that 818 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 4: sort of stuff. And so whilst banks still make moneys 819 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 4: in those ways and that's still the most profitable path 820 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 4: to banking, there's still opportunity though, because as we are 821 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 4: all aware right, last year the New Zealand banks that 822 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,719 Speaker 4: are owned by Australia there was about seven point two 823 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 4: billion New Zealand dollars in profits, So there's, you know, 824 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 4: there's a pretty sizable pie out there. There's things that 825 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 4: can be done over and above just interest generated from 826 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 4: mortgage accounts. And as we're all aware right, if you're 827 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 4: getting in deposits into your bank accounts that you're giving 828 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 4: tiny interest on, those are the most cheapest forms of 829 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 4: capital and the world, which is why banks are very 830 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 4: keen for you to put money and deposit your salary 831 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,280 Speaker 4: into their bank. So you have these tier one banks 832 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,240 Speaker 4: who have a slightly insolent advantage of this size and scale, 833 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 4: which is hard to replicate if you don't have the 834 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,359 Speaker 4: size and scale. But having settled that, there are other 835 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,800 Speaker 4: ways to generate income if you can create value added 836 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 4: services that you can charge for. So one of the 837 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 4: things we're really excited about within the open banking regime 838 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 4: and APIs is the stuff we do at the moment 839 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 4: is foundational stuff. But eventually, when we've got this common 840 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,359 Speaker 4: foundational layer that everyone can build upon, then you can 841 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 4: start to think about, well, what are the premium APIs 842 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 4: the kind of proprietary, bespoke things that Josh is talking 843 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 4: about that could then really generate value, like we're actually 844 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 4: solving a problem that's valuable that people are willing to 845 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 4: pay for. And so one of the things around the 846 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 4: mortgage example is and this is something that Minister Bailey 847 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 4: called out earlier on this week, is in Australia you 848 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 4: can get a mortgage and they basically as part of 849 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 4: that process they then access with your consent or your ID, 850 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 4: they then access your primary account. They then run a 851 00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 4: full bity assessments on everything in there, they get all 852 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 4: transactional industry they need in order to then arrive at 853 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 4: a lending decision in minutes. And so that's the kind 854 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 4: of premium API you know from banking will eventually unlock 855 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 4: file toy and all. And I'm here for that. Let's go. 856 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 2: I mean I think as well, it's worth noting that 857 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 2: a UK fintech Revolute. They just got approved as a 858 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 2: bank in the UK, I think it was as of 859 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 2: today or yesterday, and they were hundreds of millions of 860 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 2: dollars a year in profit and they haven't got mortgages yet, 861 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 2: so you know, I think there is a piece of 862 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 2: evidence there that we can point to. 863 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:34,319 Speaker 5: That's our time. 864 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I could talk about open banking for hours, but 865 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 2: we do have to wrap up. So thank you so 866 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 2: much to Josh and Adrian for joining us and giving 867 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,760 Speaker 2: us a bit of insight into what's going on leisure. 868 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 3: Thanks foraming us. 869 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I reckon we could have gone on for 870 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 4: another couple of hours because I don't know if you've urdosed, 871 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 4: but Josh and I have some fairly pointed views, not 872 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,439 Speaker 4: always aligned, but at least we're in the tent trying 873 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,439 Speaker 4: to do something, unlike others who are outside the tent 874 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 4: lobbing stones and name names. But part of the reason 875 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 4: why the CPD bill is so important is the recent 876 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 4: data breach by Squirrell says, Hey, this is why this 877 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 4: stuff's important, guys, Let's get some regulation in it. 878 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,400 Speaker 1: So Ben, A big takeaway for me from that discussion 879 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 1: is the existing banking system when it comes to mortgages, 880 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,919 Speaker 1: which you asked about. You know, I sort of thought, 881 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, when you get a mortgage that sort of 882 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,359 Speaker 1: locks you into a bank, and then you do your 883 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: savings and maybe your shared trading, and that's through your 884 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: bank because it's the most efficient way to do it. 885 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: But the reality is is that mortgage brokers account for 886 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: something like sixty percent of what new mortgages signed. So 887 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,799 Speaker 1: there's this whole layer of third parties that are interacting 888 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: with the banks and the ability for them to gain 889 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 1: access to your transaction history, your account information massively going 890 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: to speed up that process. And then if you can 891 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: put that information into hand of financial advisors as well, 892 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: and maybe the rise of robo advice, which is feared 893 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: by artificial intelligence, suddenly you've got a lot of kiwis 894 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 1: who may see a lot of benefit and dealing with 895 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: third parties and allowing the financial data to be existed. 896 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we are talking about a country in 897 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 2: which there was a whole generation or two who when 898 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 2: they turned to certain age asb rolled up to their 899 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,400 Speaker 2: school and said that no, give us five bucks and 900 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 2: we'll start you a bank account, and they never bothered 901 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 2: to change like that. I mean that was a massively 902 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 2: successful campaign for them. I was one of those kids, 903 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 2: and it was only by dint of my restlessness that 904 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 2: I think that I ended up leaving ASB. 905 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:45,880 Speaker 5: I went to National Bank. 906 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,439 Speaker 2: National Bank got eaten up by A and Z and 907 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 2: I wanted to not be with an Australian bank basically, 908 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,239 Speaker 2: so I left again. Like you say, this lock in 909 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 2: that we have, this inertia that we have to moving 910 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 2: about is real. But with a tool like this, and 911 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 2: with an increasingly digitally savvy population, we can start to 912 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 2: see things become easy. I always talk about the benefit 913 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 2: of user interface and user experience. If you can make 914 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 2: something easy for people, that is when you start to 915 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,399 Speaker 2: see drastic change. That's what the iPhone was all about. 916 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 2: That's what Zero is all about. It's what all of 917 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,800 Speaker 2: these amazing companies have been all about. And I truly 918 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 2: think that with the advent of these APIs, with these 919 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 2: really forward thinking FinTechs who are on the cutting edge 920 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 2: of technology and really agile and able to make things 921 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 2: work for their audiences, I truly think that as long 922 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,400 Speaker 2: as things are accessible and affordable, it will start to 923 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 2: see some drastic change that will create a more equal 924 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 2: playing field of people, will give people better budgeting tools, 925 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 2: will give people better access to lending that is less 926 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 2: predatory because they may not just google personal loan and 927 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 2: go with the first person and that pops up. That's 928 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 2: my hope, Like, that's what I would like to think anyway, 929 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:06,439 Speaker 2: and I. 930 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 5: Think that you know that. 931 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 2: Hopefully Adrian and Josh would agree with me, but there 932 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 2: are probably a. 933 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,920 Speaker 5: Lot of people who would disagree with me. 934 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 1: What does it mean? They talked about read access as 935 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,399 Speaker 1: well as right access, and this includes right access which 936 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: apparently the Australian regime doesn't. So presumably read ACXISS means 937 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,799 Speaker 1: you can look at account information and transaction history and 938 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Does writing it mean that you 939 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,799 Speaker 1: can do something in say a dash app or something 940 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: like that, and then that's reflected back in someone's bank 941 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: account with one of the Big four. 942 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, they can kind of, I guess, make transactions on 943 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 2: your behalf using your bank account, which could be good 944 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 2: for your budgeting apps, right, because if you want to 945 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 2: pocketsmith or something that is able to read all of 946 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,160 Speaker 2: your transaction data and say, don't let me spend more 947 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 2: than fifteen bucks a week on coffee or at cafes 948 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,680 Speaker 2: and then you your pocket Smith card. But that's you 949 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,879 Speaker 2: don't have to worry about topping up a wallet into 950 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 2: Pocketsmith to actually enact that. It can all be kind 951 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 2: of done more simply. 952 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: That's great, and I could see it eventually super wraps 953 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: emerging for financial services where they become the interface for 954 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,839 Speaker 1: my chers e's, my bank account, my hatch, whatever else 955 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: I'm using, and I do it all through one interface 956 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 1: rather than going to separate apps, and maybe it gives 957 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: me some intelligence around what is my overall financial health 958 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,839 Speaker 1: or investment health looking at, rather than having to go 959 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,480 Speaker 1: from chers E's to ASB to what's my key we 960 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,960 Speaker 1: savior doing. Having all of that in one place that 961 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 1: would be really powerful. 962 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Basically anything you do with a spreadsheet like is 963 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 2: what you can hopefully get automated with open banking. 964 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,359 Speaker 5: That's kind of how I like to think of it. 965 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and these two guys seem really upbeat about this. 966 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,959 Speaker 1: It's not like what happened in Australia. 967 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:01,279 Speaker 4: You know. 968 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,800 Speaker 1: They say that we've learned from that. We've got quite 969 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,440 Speaker 1: an effective regime that's been outlined here. So they seem 970 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 1: quite upbeat on what the prospects are over the coming 971 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:14,800 Speaker 1: years for open banking in New Zealand. 972 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think everybody is pretty upbeat about it. Like 973 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,239 Speaker 2: if you go to the Customer and Product Data Bill 974 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 2: first reading the transcript and so you look at the 975 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 2: Andrew Bellies comment and he says, the question is who 976 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 2: supports the bill? Well, honestly basically everyone, which I think. 977 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 5: Is really true. 978 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,560 Speaker 2: You scroll down and you've got Labor, Greens, Acts to 979 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:42,040 Speaker 2: Party Maori that're all supportive of this bill. And although 980 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 2: you know it's a different extent and with different perspectives 981 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 2: around competition and about data sovereignty and all these kinds 982 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:53,719 Speaker 2: of things, they all recognize that enabling consumers to have 983 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,480 Speaker 2: access and control of their own data is going to 984 00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 2: be a net good at the end of the day. 985 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,799 Speaker 1: Great bring it on and good luck to blink, pay 986 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 1: a carhoo dash all of them. Because we do know 987 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,520 Speaker 1: already that the fintech sector is a big revenue spinner 988 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,320 Speaker 1: and most of that is probably zero is counted and that, 989 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: but this is a big sector, you know, best part 990 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:19,600 Speaker 1: of a billion dollars already. And as those two guests 991 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,360 Speaker 1: pointed out, banking is seriously profitable in New Zealand, so 992 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,600 Speaker 1: there is market share to be claimed there, there are 993 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,160 Speaker 1: fees to be taken out of the system and lowered, 994 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,120 Speaker 1: so it's not as though they're cannibalizing and in dussery 995 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,480 Speaker 1: that's doing it tough. You know, there's a lot of 996 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: fat there to be eaten away, so credit to them. 997 00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: That's where innovation and disruption will really come into its own. 998 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:43,319 Speaker 5: Absolutely. 999 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,200 Speaker 2: Yep. Well that's it for the Business of Tech this week. 1000 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 2: Thank you to Adrian Smith from blink pay and Josh 1001 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,720 Speaker 2: Daniel from Alcohou for filling us in on the practicalities 1002 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,480 Speaker 2: and potential of open banking. 1003 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 5: We'll keep a close eye on that sector as the 1004 00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:57,960 Speaker 5: regime develops. 1005 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,800 Speaker 1: The Business of Tech is on all may do podcast 1006 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:04,680 Speaker 1: platforms as well as iHeartRadio, where you can stream every episode. 1007 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,480 Speaker 1: Show notes are in the Tech section on the Business 1008 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,680 Speaker 1: Desk website. Leave us a review and share it with 1009 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:11,840 Speaker 1: your friends and colleagues. 1010 00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,400 Speaker 2: Get in touch with feedback, ideas, topics and guest suggestions. 1011 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,759 Speaker 2: You can email me Ben at business apps dot co 1012 00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,520 Speaker 2: dot NZAD. We'll find both of us on LinkedIn and x. 1013 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: You'll find the next episode of the Business of Tech 1014 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,279 Speaker 1: in your podcast app. Bright and early next Thursday, we'll 1015 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:27,799 Speaker 1: catch you there.