Speaker 1: Hilda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast.
Speaker 1: Presented by the New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2: New Zealand is on high alert after an Auckland ferry
Speaker 2: worker tested positive for measles. They were infectious while on
Speaker 2: board a number of Buller's three sixty sailings on May fifth,
Speaker 2: at a Kelston supermarket.
Speaker 1: And downtown car park.
Speaker 2: Two days later they were at Unicem New Lynn and
Speaker 2: Packensave Mount Albert. The marine crew member had recently traveled
Speaker 2: to Asia, but they weren't infectious on their flight home.
Speaker 2: So how concerning is this latest outbreak? And have we
Speaker 2: not learned anything from our days of COVID? Today on
Speaker 2: the front Page, University of Auckland Senior lecturer and research
Speaker 2: virologist Natalie Netzler joins us to take us through the
Speaker 2: does and don'ts when it comes to measles. And just
Speaker 2: a quick note after we recorded this interview, Health Minister
Speaker 2: Simeon Brown released updated Health New Zealand vaccination data. Just
Speaker 2: over eighty percent of all kids are now fully immunized
Speaker 2: by the age of two, the highest rate since twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two.
Speaker 1: So this may seem like a silly question.
Speaker 2: But for those of us who don't know or just
Speaker 2: don't think about measles because we're I don't know vaccinated,
Speaker 2: what exactly is measles and why is it such a concern.
Speaker 3: Yeah, measles is a really dangerous virus, and I think
Speaker 3: it's really underestimated. It's highly contagious, and it's spread through
Speaker 3: the air through coughs and sneezes and droplets. I think
Speaker 3: what's most concerning is that if you're unvaccinated, nine out
Speaker 3: of ten people can catch this. If they're exposed, you
Speaker 3: get symptoms like cough, red eyes, running nose, spots in
Speaker 3: the mouth, and sometimes a fever and a rash. But
Speaker 3: what's more concerning is that over one in ten of
Speaker 3: those who are infected will need hospital care. The complications
Speaker 3: that range from something simple like an air infection, but
Speaker 3: right through to things like permanent hearing loss, brain inflammation,
Speaker 3: and even death. And we see that one in a
Speaker 3: thousand people in New Zealand that are infected will end
Speaker 3: up dying, and that's usually from pneumonia. I think what's
Speaker 3: even more concerning and people don't really know about, is
Speaker 3: that measles can also make our immune system forget. So
Speaker 3: if we are unvaccinated and we get infected, then the
Speaker 3: measles actually turns off our immune system, so it forgets
Speaker 3: some of the things that we're previously been trained to
Speaker 3: be protected against, so we actually get more sick in
Speaker 3: the period after we have measles from other things that
Speaker 3: shouldn't normally make us sex. So it's a really dangerous virus.
Speaker 2: Looking at what we know about the current outbreak, how
Speaker 2: concerning is it having these locations of interest.
Speaker 1: It feels like we're back in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think for all of those that are vaccinated,
Speaker 3: we're really well protected by the measles vaccine MMR gives
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent protection after two doses, so we are
Speaker 3: all safe. But what's more concerning is that we have
Speaker 3: quite low vaccination rates over all for measles at the moment,
Speaker 3: and with this one imported case, because it's so contagious,
Speaker 3: everybody that's unvaccinated and has been close to this person
Speaker 3: or in these areas of interest, they can be exposed
Speaker 3: and catch the virus. We've seen lots of cases overseas
Speaker 3: and here where we know measles can stay in the
Speaker 3: air for a couple of hours after a cough or
Speaker 3: a sneeze, so you might walk into a room and
Speaker 3: not even know that someone with measles was there before you, right.
Speaker 2: And a fairy into supermarket. Those feel like quite concerning
Speaker 2: areas of contact.
Speaker 3: Particularly. I think fairies are quite small, closed spaces, and
Speaker 3: things like the bathroom, really you're sort of trapped and
Speaker 3: they're breathing that same air. So those are certain areas
Speaker 3: that would be high risk for exposure.
Speaker 2: So how good or bad are our vaccination rates at
Speaker 2: the moment.
Speaker 3: I think what we're seeing at the moment is they're
Speaker 3: really just too low. So currently the rates that are
Speaker 3: reported that we're between seventy six and seventy seven percent
Speaker 3: of our two year olds are vaccinated overall for our immunizations.
Speaker 3: But what's really concerning is that this is much lower
Speaker 3: in some of our communities due to our really lack
Speaker 3: of access and chronic systemic barriers. So what we're seeing
Speaker 3: for some of our Mighty communities is around thirty five
Speaker 3: percent our immunization coverage and forty four percent for some
Speaker 3: of our Pacific communities. This is really concerning because after
Speaker 3: the twenty nineteen outbreak of measles and some more, we
Speaker 3: saw over eighty people died, but even more tragically, they
Speaker 3: were mostly children under the age of four. So we
Speaker 3: really need to get our IMS rates up to protect
Speaker 3: our children.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned there are some barriers. Why are those
Speaker 2: vaccination rates so low?
Speaker 3: I think, really it is very complex. So one of
Speaker 3: the real battles we have is misinformation and disinformation all
Speaker 3: about vaccines, but particularly about MMR. I think what's really
Speaker 3: important is that we get more funding from the government
Speaker 3: to make sure that we can have community led in
Speaker 3: initiatives to make sure that we deliver vaccines in a
Speaker 3: way that is appropriate and is easy. So we see
Speaker 3: a lot of access barriers in are harder to reach communities,
Speaker 3: but we also see some real champions. We see cases
Speaker 3: like the moukor van into Taytikuo, which is taking the
Speaker 3: vaccine out to people that can't necessarily get to a clinic,
Speaker 3: which is really encouraging. So I think if we could
Speaker 3: put more funding into these areas where we can overcome
Speaker 3: some of these barriers, then that will make a big difference.
Speaker 3: But things like access to clinics, lack of trust using
Speaker 3: a communication model that's one size fits all, these are
Speaker 3: the barriers we really need to overcome measles.
Speaker 4: Vaccines limit the spread.
Speaker 2: Well, you said, you said it was the most effective
Speaker 2: way to limit this limit the spread.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know with the present trum's possession of my
Speaker 4: possession is there is people who do not want to
Speaker 4: get vaccine and that's their choice, right, and we are
Speaker 4: to be able to treat them, and we know how
Speaker 4: to treat them and die there. It's wry to have
Speaker 4: the betest information al treat Thumb understood that, and we're
Speaker 4: focusing on that. But better to get to I get
Speaker 4: the vaccine right because it doeses it limits.
Speaker 1: Well and it prevents it. Right, It's it's preventing the illness.
Speaker 1: You know, two doses per effective and you said that,
Speaker 1: you said that is this a vaccine that requires a booster.
Speaker 3: So this vaccine needs two doses to give you lifelong protection.
Speaker 3: One dose is better than none. You get ninety five
Speaker 3: percent coverage, but it's best to get two doses and
Speaker 3: that gives you ninety nine percent coverage against affection for
Speaker 3: the rest of your life. Right.
Speaker 2: And the only way like is there any way to
Speaker 2: kind of because you usually get it when you're young, right,
Speaker 2: So you just have to ask your parents if you
Speaker 2: got it, or is there a record or somewhere.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good question, and I think you know,
Speaker 3: normally we would hope that would be part of your
Speaker 3: normal immunization schedule, so you get one at twelve and
Speaker 3: fifteen months. But what's really important is that people like
Speaker 3: me and my vintage you didn't necessarily have good records
Speaker 3: of whether or not you'd been vaccinated against measles because
Speaker 3: it was introduced and taken back and then introduced again
Speaker 3: in the seventies as they got better vaccines, and so
Speaker 3: I had no record of my own measles vaccine. So
Speaker 3: it's perfectly safe to go back as an adult and
Speaker 3: get your catch up doses, which I did and you don't.
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter if you had it previously and you're
Speaker 3: not sure you can actually safely get those two doses
Speaker 3: again to make sure you're fully covered. So I would
Speaker 3: strongly suggest that you go along. It is free if
Speaker 3: you were born after the first of January nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 3: and that's exactly what I did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember in twenty nineteen that summer in outbreak,
Speaker 2: I had to frantically call my dad and he had
Speaker 2: to rifle through boxes of old paperwork to try and
Speaker 2: get my vaccination records. It felt like for a while
Speaker 2: there that measles was pretty close to being eradicated at
Speaker 2: one point, Right, So what's led to this kind of turn?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's what's so tragic is that it's
Speaker 3: vaccine preventable and we could eradicated if we had sort
Speaker 3: of the right approach. But I think a lot of
Speaker 3: there are a lot of complex reasons why vaccination rates
Speaker 3: have driven I think all of us are a little
Speaker 3: bit overhearing about COVID, and I think the COVID vaccine
Speaker 3: being mandated has made a lot of people have some
Speaker 3: sort of fatigue around vaccines. I think again that misinformation
Speaker 3: and disinformation really does a road trust, and that's something
Speaker 3: that we have to work really hard to communicate the
Speaker 3: right information to people so that they can make them
Speaker 3: formed decisions. I also think one thing that I rarely
Speaker 3: discovered working with our communities around the COVID time to
Speaker 3: answer questions, is that a lot of the population, a
Speaker 3: lot of us are not actually anti vax We just
Speaker 3: want answers to our own specific questions about the vaccine
Speaker 3: safety and effectiveness. So what I found is a lot
Speaker 3: of mums and dads just wanted to know, my child
Speaker 3: has this, you know, this heart condition or they have
Speaker 3: this illness, is the vaccine still safe for them? And
Speaker 3: I found that if we could answer those questions, which
Speaker 3: a GP or a health provider can help answer, then
Speaker 3: people were much more likely to go and get the vaccine.
Speaker 3: So it really is just making sure that people have
Speaker 3: all the right information from good sources so that they
Speaker 3: can go and make informed decisions about getting up to
Speaker 3: date on their immunizations, because that really is the single
Speaker 3: best way to protect ourselves against measles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know a lot of people want to
Speaker 2: move on from COVID, But do you think we've moved
Speaker 2: on a bit too much and have forgotten some of
Speaker 2: those key lessons, Like you basically never see anyone wearing
Speaker 2: masks out in public anymore when they're clearly sick. My
Speaker 2: producer was at the supermarket the other day, for example,
Speaker 2: and saw a man coughing all of the food without
Speaker 2: making any attempt to.
Speaker 1: Cover his mouth.
Speaker 2: There's just some basic things we're probably taught at school,
Speaker 2: and it doesn't seem that hyperbolic to say we've forgotten
Speaker 2: about them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I think again a lot of people are
Speaker 3: a bit overhearing about COVID, but that doesn't stop the
Speaker 3: fact that infectious diseases are still out there and we're
Speaker 3: still getting exposed and falling sick. As I mentioned, there
Speaker 3: are very few solutions to measles other than immunization, and
Speaker 3: it's the same for a lot of viruses. We don't
Speaker 3: have specific treatments for a lot of viral diseases. Munization
Speaker 3: is the single best thing you can do, but there
Speaker 3: are other things you can do to boost your immune
Speaker 3: system as well, for example, getting enough sleep, getting some sun,
Speaker 3: eating while reducing stress. These things really keep your immune
Speaker 3: system strong. But as you mentioned, it's really important to
Speaker 3: stay home if you're sick to stop the spread of
Speaker 3: infectious diseases. And if you absolutely must go out, if
Speaker 3: you live alone and you need food and you can't
Speaker 3: get it delivered, then it is really important to keep
Speaker 3: your distance and wear a mask. It's just these basic
Speaker 3: rules so that we can try and stop the spread
Speaker 3: of these infectious diseases, including measles.
Speaker 2: But we are approaching winter, a lot of people I
Speaker 2: know are starting to get sick. It's going around the office,
Speaker 2: so probably everywhere, every other office as well. What do
Speaker 2: we need to keep in mind as those winter bugs
Speaker 2: start to spread about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's just those basics. Back to basics,
Speaker 3: keeping your immune system strong, getting immunized where you can,
Speaker 3: Keeping in mind that there's lots of infectious diseases out
Speaker 3: there that we don't have specific treatments or vaccines too,
Speaker 3: so keeping yourself safe again. Those the best ways to
Speaker 3: keep your immune system as strong as possible is to
Speaker 3: get enough sleep and reduce your stress, keep moving, a
Speaker 3: little bit of vitamin D sunlight, particular in these winter months. Actually,
Speaker 3: vitamin D deficiency is a big issue for our immune system,
Speaker 3: So getting out into some of that little winter sun,
Speaker 3: going for a bit of a walk, getting our bodies moving,
Speaker 3: eating well. All these simple basic rules are the best
Speaker 3: ways to keep our immune system strong. But again, immunization
Speaker 3: is the single best way to protect ourselves against measles.
Speaker 5: Most at risk of those who have not been vaccinated,
Speaker 5: so for us that is under twelve months babies and
Speaker 5: then anybody who hasn't had two measles containing vaccination. So
Speaker 5: in New Zealand we use MMR the measles month through
Speaker 5: BELLA vaccination. You need to have two of those to
Speaker 5: be completely protected. So those born between nineteen sixty nine
Speaker 5: in two thousand and four may have only received one vaccination,
Speaker 5: So we're especially asking those people to check your vaccination records.
Speaker 2: With winter approaching and hospitals already filling up, the last
Speaker 2: thing our health system needs is an outbreak. There's a
Speaker 2: high trust model to the public health response, now, isn't there.
Speaker 2: I mean, people are being asked to get in touch
Speaker 2: if they believe they aren't considered immune. But if you've
Speaker 2: chosen not to be vaccinated, are you really going to
Speaker 2: engage with the health authorities? Or am iybe just being
Speaker 2: a bit too pessimistic?
Speaker 3: Care Again, I sort of come back to the work
Speaker 3: that we did with communities in COVID when we were
Speaker 3: answering questions about the virus. So I think one thing
Speaker 3: that really comes across here is that these communities, often,
Speaker 3: these communities that have low vaccination rates, it's not because
Speaker 3: they necessarily just don't want the vaccine. What we hear
Speaker 3: from them is that there is certainly a lack of trust,
Speaker 3: But often actually what we hear is that it's a
Speaker 3: lack of access to the right information. I think if
Speaker 3: we have this one size fits all approach for communications
Speaker 3: about our medicines and our vaccines that just isn't going
Speaker 3: to work. And again I come back to the fact
Speaker 3: that the work we did during COVID showed me that
Speaker 3: a lot of people are not anti vacs. They just
Speaker 3: really want their specific questions answered, and it's about knowing
Speaker 3: who to go to for those that information. And I
Speaker 3: think one thing that we could really do better as
Speaker 3: a nation is having government funding that really backs community
Speaker 3: leaders that are trusted within that community, that can help
Speaker 3: share the right information and the right way for these
Speaker 3: communities so that we get trusts in uplift. And we
Speaker 3: saw this actually during COVID. The more work we did
Speaker 3: in this, the more investment we made, the higher those
Speaker 3: immunization rates got. And we actually saw for a while
Speaker 3: they're pecific communities were leading the rates in terms of
Speaker 3: New Zealand vaccinations against COVID. So it really is about
Speaker 3: getting that communication out and getting it right and making
Speaker 3: sure that people really do have the right information in
Speaker 3: the right format to make informed decisions.
Speaker 2: It's interesting you bring that up, actually, because I remember
Speaker 2: that and it really points to the fact that targeted
Speaker 2: messaging for different communities really works. Hey, so if you
Speaker 2: had a magic wand ruguess of magic checkbook, would that
Speaker 2: be the first thing you do?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, if I if I was a billionaire and
Speaker 3: I could self fund these things, I think, really it
Speaker 3: is about protecting children, and it really is about making
Speaker 3: sure that parents understand that the vaccines we have in
Speaker 3: New Zealand, they've gone through so many hoops and so
Speaker 3: many tests to make sure that they are absolutely safe
Speaker 3: for use. But it's also about knowing what, where and
Speaker 3: where they can't be used. And so I think what
Speaker 3: I would do is fund community leaders in every single
Speaker 3: community that are already trusted, that have people's ear, and
Speaker 3: make sure that they have the right information and then
Speaker 3: make sure that they can pass that on and share
Speaker 3: that with communities and maybe have this two way dialogue
Speaker 3: where that person is sort of a champion in both directions,
Speaker 3: can get the latest sort of information from from health
Speaker 3: providers and then pass that into communities, and then they
Speaker 3: can pass back the questions and really have that dialogue
Speaker 3: so that it's not just one message going out saying
Speaker 3: you should do this. Trust us when we've done terrible
Speaker 3: things in the past, and you know you should just
Speaker 3: sort of forget all that and take this medicine to
Speaker 3: stop you from getting sick. It would be more of
Speaker 3: a dialogue in terms of making sure that people understand
Speaker 3: exactly what is in the vaccine, that it's been tested
Speaker 3: rigorously to make sure it's very safe, that it is
Speaker 3: the best way to keep our tomadiki out of hospital.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Natalie, Thank you very much for
Speaker 1: having me.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Seals and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our sound engineer.
Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the.
Speaker 2: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 2: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.