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Speaker 1: Chris Lux and Prime Minister Chris Hello.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Lo, how are you going you survive in the

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Speaker 2: Morning's okay?

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Speaker 1: Mage, we've talked about what time do you get up

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Speaker 1: in the morning, About four thirty, About four thirty fifty

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Speaker 1: seven days week.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot to do. There's a lot there's

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Speaker 2: a country to sort out and get turned around and

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Speaker 2: heading in the right direction. So there's a hell of

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Speaker 2: a lot of work to do. So that's what the

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Speaker 2: good people in New ze Little elected me to do,

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Speaker 2: is to go to work. So that's what I've got

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, correctly, first thing in the morning. I don't think

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Speaker 1: people realize that hosting gets up at two thirty, which

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Speaker 1: is quite a thing.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, and if you do the same thing, you

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Speaker 2: haven't get.

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Speaker 1: Up there can't you can't be you can't be filling

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Speaker 1: in for the big guy and then dropping the ball.

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Speaker 2: So absolutely, yeah, you're under some pressure.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, alarm for full thirty tomorrow and I'll think, oh, look,

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Speaker 1: I've been enough for two hours longer than the Prime minister.

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Speaker 2: It's unusual.

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Speaker 1: Listen, what can you tell us about the fairy's announcement tomorrow?

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Speaker 2: Can't tell you anything Unfortunately, you just have to wait

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Speaker 2: until the announcement comes. We said we'll do it before

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Speaker 2: the end of the year, but we need to get

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Speaker 2: a really good solution on the straight and we've worked

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Speaker 2: hard to make sure that we can. But spending three

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Speaker 2: point two billion dollars with further risk of overruns wasn't

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Speaker 2: the way forward, and so we need a proper solution

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Speaker 2: and that's what the team's been working on through the

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Speaker 2: most of the year.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us it's tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: I can't even tell you when it will be hither.

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Speaker 2: All I can say is I'm delivering on our commitment,

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Speaker 2: which is will make an announcement before the end of

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Speaker 2: the year, and unfortunately you just have to wait till then.

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Speaker 1: How annoyed do you yesterday in the post cabinet press conference,

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Speaker 1: where all the details were already out and a reporter

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Speaker 1: was quoting them back to.

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Speaker 2: You, Well, I don't talk about what happens in cabinet,

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Speaker 2: And I know there's a lot of questions that were

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Speaker 2: coming my way on that, but the answer is pretty straightforward.

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Speaker 2: You know, we don't talk about what's happening in cabinet.

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Speaker 2: We make sure that when we do.

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Speaker 1: Somebody is talking about what's happening in cabinet though, aren't

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Speaker 1: they because you know it's two medium sized fairies, not

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Speaker 1: rail enabled and might cost about nine hundred million bucks.

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Speaker 2: Well, I just I just wait until the announcement comes.

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Speaker 2: So not long ago, are we?

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Speaker 1: Can? You just tell me this though? The total package, right,

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Speaker 1: the three billion dollars, whatever you guys do now is

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Speaker 1: not going to exceed that, is it correct? Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: at least there's something there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the problem the problem here there was the

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Speaker 2: last lot was that you know, you had a project

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Speaker 2: that I think started off at under a billion, ended

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Speaker 2: up blowing out like we've seen with Dunedin Hospital, like

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Speaker 2: we've seen with everything else, up to three point two billion.

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Speaker 2: And actually one fifth of it was around the boats,

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Speaker 2: and then the four fists of it was actually the

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Speaker 2: infrastructure at the ports required to support those boats. And

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Speaker 2: so you know that's where it was getting out of hand.

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Speaker 1: But you know what I'm worried about.

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Speaker 2: And there was no there was no sign that actually

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't even get worse from there. I'm worried called

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Speaker 2: to make the decision.

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Speaker 1: I'm worrying about. What you're going to do, is you're

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Speaker 1: going to save a whole bunch of money on the

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Speaker 1: port side infrastructure, but then you're going to end up

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Speaker 1: blowing huge amounts of money on the fairies. And we

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Speaker 1: could have had these two massive fairies for five hundred

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Speaker 1: million or thereabouts, and now we're going to end up

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Speaker 1: buying smaller fairies for more, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like the fairies.

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Speaker 2: But that was the problem, right, I mean, the fairies

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Speaker 2: that were selected at that time required huge amounts of

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Speaker 2: different port infrastructure in both Wellington and Picton and that's

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Speaker 2: where the blowout and costs started to happen. So so

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Speaker 2: you've got to get the whole system right. And frankly, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, as we talked about at the time, you know,

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Speaker 2: you just can't have a blowout like that. It's just

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Speaker 2: just not acceptable and no and no end in sight

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Speaker 2: as to where it was going next. So look, we've

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Speaker 2: done the right thing, I mean, And and you'll give

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Speaker 2: me a hard time and say a lot. You've got

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Speaker 2: to be tough on managing the economy, and we are.

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Speaker 2: And so yep, we're not going to spend three billion

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Speaker 2: dollars building indeed in hospital spend two. Yes, we're going

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Speaker 2: to get a right sized option for the cockstraight. But

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Speaker 2: we need to because every money that we just let

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Speaker 2: overspend there is money that we can't spend doing more schools, hospitals, roads,

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Speaker 2: somewhere else in.

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Speaker 1: We'll chat about it again next week once once we

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Speaker 1: get the announcement tomorrow. Probably Listener, you guys, despite all

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Speaker 1: the pressure you're getting on this boot camp trial, you

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Speaker 1: guys going to push your head with this. You're going

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Speaker 1: to make the boot camps happen.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think the arguments ridiculous that I've heard in

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Speaker 2: the last twenty four hours, which is that, look, we've

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Speaker 2: got ten of our toughest, serious, most persistent young offenders.

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Speaker 2: They are really complex kids, come from challenge backgrounds, but

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Speaker 2: they are the hardest and the toughest of the toughest

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Speaker 2: that we've got. So what we've said is lot, we're

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Speaker 2: going to have these military style academies. I've been in them,

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Speaker 2: I've seen them. I've seen huge amounts. I was really impressed.

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Speaker 2: I spent four hours there with the ten kids. It

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Speaker 2: was incredible. They've got mentors, they got support, they've got

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Speaker 2: people having to get driver's licenses, they've got everything, you know,

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Speaker 2: every opportunity to make a choice to live a better life,

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Speaker 2: and that's what we're presenting with them while we're also

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Speaker 2: keeping the public safe. And so you know, we've got

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Speaker 2: two things. One get the public safe. Two make an intervention,

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Speaker 2: because you know where those lives are going. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're just going to go into tougher, harder serious crime,

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Speaker 2: causing more pain and suffering across the community. So we'll

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Speaker 2: give them a shot. It's up to them to make

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Speaker 2: to do something with it. But you know, you know

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Speaker 2: a number of those kids have actually gone on to

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Speaker 2: actually find jobs or taken on education, and that's a major,

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Speaker 2: major thing. So I appreciate there will still be there

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Speaker 2: will be still those that will reoffend, and that's a

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Speaker 2: choice that they make. But you know, everyone gets to

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Speaker 2: live a life of free will and choice. And at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, all we've done is give

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Speaker 2: them an intervention that actually they haven't had from my

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Speaker 2: mum and dad, or from their family, or from their community.

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Speaker 2: And so the alternative of not doing it is sorry, do.

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Speaker 1: You need to tweak the intervention? Do you need to

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Speaker 1: make the stay in the boot camp a little bit longer?

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Speaker 1: Or increase the security that they have when they're back

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Speaker 1: in the community or something to avoid them doing what

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Speaker 1: they've just done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well we'll look into that. I mean, yeah, because

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. What we've set up as a

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Speaker 2: pilot right, so there was a three month residential piece,

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Speaker 2: a nine month community based piece. They actually do have

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Speaker 2: dedicated people with them through the community phase as well.

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Speaker 2: But there may well be as we now bring in

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Speaker 2: this young serious offender legislation and ability to work with

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Speaker 2: those younger people for longer in residences if we didn't

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Speaker 2: feel they were ready to return to the community. But

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Speaker 2: in the pilot construct, that wasn't something that we could do.

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Speaker 2: Under the new legislation, we possibly could play with that

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Speaker 2: if we feel it's appropriate. But all I just say

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Speaker 2: to you is, look, I just think it's a pretty

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Speaker 2: defeatist and negative mindset to say, look, we should try

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Speaker 2: to do something different, shouldn't we to keep the public

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Speaker 2: safe and to change the way these lives could go.

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Speaker 2: Because even if one of those ten actually ends up

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Speaker 2: changing their life and they don't go down a pathway

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Speaker 2: of gang life and violence and jail time time and

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Speaker 2: welfare dependency and all of that stuff and all the

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Speaker 2: cost associated with that, let alone all the harm. Isn't

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Speaker 2: that what we're trying to do. It's called social investment

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Speaker 2: and it's hard and it's hard stuff, but you have

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Speaker 2: to stick with it. But the answer not to do

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Speaker 2: it isn't the right up.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen the Curier polling out today on the

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Speaker 1: support for the Treaty Principles bill.

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Speaker 2: I haven't to be honest, as you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: too focused on poles because you.

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Speaker 1: Need to get across this cross. You need to get

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Speaker 1: across this because of the position that you're taking on it.

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Speaker 1: So National Party voters do not want to leave things

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Speaker 1: as though way they are the fifty nine percent, there's

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Speaker 1: a vast majority of your own voters want Parliament, all

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Speaker 1: the people to decide what happens with the Treaty Principles.

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Speaker 2: Well, what I'd say to you is when I took

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Speaker 2: to National Party voters and the numbers that I see,

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Speaker 2: what matters much more than the treaty issues, frankly, is

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Speaker 2: actually fixing the economy infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: I'm not arguing about that, and I would agree with you.

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Speaker 2: On saliency of issue. Saliency of issue for National Party

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Speaker 2: voters and people and supporters, those things matter much more

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Speaker 2: than the treaty, there'll be arranging views within the party

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Speaker 2: on it.

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Speaker 1: This is one of these issues. If you ask me

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Speaker 1: what's important to me, I can tell you all the

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Speaker 1: things that are important to me. My child's education, health

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Speaker 1: care for myself, blah blah blah, all of those things

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Speaker 1: in the economy. But you put the treaty principles issue

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Speaker 1: in front of people, they have an opinion. They expect

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Speaker 1: you to have an opinion, and you're sticking with the status.

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Speaker 2: Well I do. Don't you ask me what my opinion is.

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Speaker 2: My opinion is very simply that treaty issues are really complex.

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Speaker 2: We've grappled with them for one hundred and eighty four years.

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Speaker 2: We believe in equal rights. We also have obligations under

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Speaker 2: the treaty. We've worked that through. It's been difficult, but

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Speaker 2: it has actually been positive for New Zeland. I believe

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Speaker 2: over one hundred and eighty four years. I think you've

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Speaker 2: got to sheet a lot of what we're saying around

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Speaker 2: division and frustration back and hipkins who didn't take people

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Speaker 2: with them health authority. Enough with my argument, but you're.

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Speaker 1: Not doing anything and you vote able to do No.

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Speaker 2: No, we are doing something. So what we're saying is look,

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Speaker 2: there's immense frustration. But the answer isn't simply with the

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Speaker 2: stroke of a pen to do a very simplistic principle spell.

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Speaker 2: The answer is to do what we are doing, which

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Speaker 2: is take a case by case, issue by issue. We've

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Speaker 2: unwound co governance on three Waters, disbanded the Maori Health Authority.

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Speaker 2: We have been clear about public services delivered on the

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Speaker 2: basi of need. We've put Maori wards back to local

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Speaker 2: communities as we said we would. We've gone through the

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Speaker 2: Maca Parliament to get back to the intention of what

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Speaker 2: was intended in twenty eleven. We're looking at treaty principal

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Speaker 2: references to make sure that's specific and relevant in legislation.

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Speaker 2: So we've got clarity uncertainty. So that's the practical stuff

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Speaker 2: that you need to do, and you do that on

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Speaker 2: a case by case, issue by issue basis. But to

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Speaker 2: think that you can just through the stroke of a

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Speaker 2: pen to a pretty simplistic treaty principle spell and override

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Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty four years of treaty discussion and debate.

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Speaker 2: The treaty has made us better as a country. As difficult,

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Speaker 2: we haven't always agreed, but everybody stays committed. And I

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Speaker 2: just say to you, go look at the history of

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Speaker 2: First Nations people all around the world, and I'm really

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Speaker 2: proud of actually what's happened over that period. As difficult

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Speaker 2: as it may be, but we have a different way

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Speaker 2: of looking at it, which is issue by issue, case

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Speaker 2: by case, doing the practical and realistic things.

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Speaker 1: It's got to ask you something or I'm getting get

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Speaker 1: in trouble about talking about you behind your back. Do

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Speaker 1: you think your baldness is a superpower?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? I think bald is beautiful and I think you

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Speaker 2: know that deep down because you married a beautiful bald

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Speaker 2: man as well. And I am doing this job in

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Speaker 2: part to advocate for the baldmen of New Zealand. You

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Speaker 2: talk about positive affirmative action. That's what it is. It's

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Speaker 2: like the baldman. I want all the bald Meant News

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Speaker 2: to know they are deeply loved, you know, by their

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Speaker 2: prime minister.

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Speaker 1: You know you can you can. That is it. That

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Speaker 1: is it. That is a section of the voters you

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Speaker 1: can go for hard. Hey, Chris, thank you very much

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Speaker 1: to to you next week.

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Speaker 2: Look after yourself.

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Speaker 1: Chris Luxen, Prime Minister for more from the Mic Asking Breakfast.

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Speaker 1: Listen live to news talks it'd be from six am weekdays,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio