1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: With us now as Nichola willis the finance minister. High Nikola, 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: good evening, Heather, Right, what are you going to do 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: to avoid Fitch dong downgrading our credit rating? 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: We're going to stick to our fiscal strategy, which has 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: three core goals. They are getting the books back in balance, 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: bending the debt curve down, and reducing government spending as 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 2: a share of the overall economy. Those goals are really important. 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: We're committed to them. Our opposition opponents less. 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: So okay, Now, the point that Fitch has made to 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: us on the program today is pushing out the surplus 11 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: every year by another year as part of the problem. 12 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 1: Do you anticipate having to do that again? 13 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 2: Well, I haven't had any advice that that will be 14 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: the case at the stage, but we're living in a 15 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: world of flux in which we have the Middle East 16 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: on fire and a lot is changing. So until I've 17 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: seen my final fiscal forecasts, I'm not in a position 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: to make commitments. But our surplus objective remains the same. 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: They've pointed to debt being the particular problem. What are 20 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: the plans that we have to get that debt down? 21 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 2: So our plan is you've got to get the books 22 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: back in balance, because for so long as they're not 23 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 2: in balance, you are having to borrow more on current forecasts. 24 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 2: We get that debt curve bending down over the next 25 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 2: few years. The only way we achieve that is through 26 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: really tight spending decisions in every single budget, and that 27 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 2: means delivering savings in every budget. So far, we've delivered 28 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: forty three billion dollars worth of savings. You can expect 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 2: us to keep doing that. And I think some people 30 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 2: hear about making savings and they think, oh, this is 31 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: so mean, Why are they doing that. That's the reality 32 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: that we have to keep our debt under control, and 33 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: that means to fund the things we really need, read 34 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: hospital services, good education for our kids. That means we 35 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: have to find savings elsewhere. That's what the government's been doing. 36 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: We're going to stick to that. 37 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: Apparent problems they say they're giving us eighteen to twenty 38 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: four months, we're not getting debt down into eighteen to 39 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: twenty four months, nor are we posting a surplus and 40 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: eighting to twenty four months a. 41 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: Well, Well, what they want to see is that we 42 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 2: are continuing to deliver on our fiscal strategy and they're 43 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: concerned that with an election coming up, that there could 44 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: be changes in the fiscal strategy. And I'd suggest to 45 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: you that the biggest risk to the fiscal strategy for 46 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: New Zealand right now, and therefore our credit rating down 47 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: down grade risk is with the Labor Party and their friends, 48 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: because they're the ones who seem to think debt doesn't 49 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: really matter, that any savings are bad we are, and 50 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: that we're not spending enough. 51 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: Okay, So listen on this cost of living relief that 52 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: you're going to be announcing tomorrow. How are you going 53 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: to pay for it without taking on debt? 54 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: Well, I'll outline that very clearly tomorrow and you will 55 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: see that it is going to be completely consistent with 56 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: the fiscal goals I've just outlined and our fiscal strategy. 57 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: So if you're not going to take on debt, you 58 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: must be cutting something. 59 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: Well, Heather, I'll give you an exclusive, which is that 60 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: we will be funding it from this year's budget operating allowance. 61 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: Okay, So what. 62 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: That means, what that means for your viewer, for your listeners, 63 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: is that we are going to prioritize our budget in 64 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: order to be able to fund this in a temporary, 65 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 2: timely and targeted way. But it means that, yes, we'll 66 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: have to prioritize carefully in order to provide that support. 67 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 2: We think that's the right thing to do right now, 68 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: given the massive imposition that fuel costs are putting, particularly 69 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: on low income families. But yeah, we're going to do 70 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: it in a way that means reprioritizing elsewhere. 71 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: Forgive my ignorance here, but isn't the operating allowance also 72 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: coming from debt? 73 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: Yes, it is. But if we stick to our operating allowance, 74 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 2: then we can stick to our fiscal strategy, which has 75 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: debt bending down over the forecast period. 76 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: Prime Minister see today that it would not. Whatever you're 77 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: paying out tomorrow is not going to push debt higher. 78 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: But it obviously is going to push dead higher because 79 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: you're taking. 80 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: On debt, but it's not going to go higher than 81 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: what we've already forecast will be our budget approach, which 82 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: is an operating allowance of a very very small nature, 83 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: which is two point four billion maximum. That's what we've outlined, 84 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: and that is far smaller than has been the case 85 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: for the previous government, and so by funding it from 86 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: the operating allowance, what we're not doing is giving ourselves 87 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 2: the freedom and flexibility that for example, the last government did, 88 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: where they just did a whole bunch of extra. 89 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: Stitch happening here, right, you can see what's going to 90 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: happen here. Prime Minister has just said it's not going 91 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: to be debt funded. You've just confirmed it is going 92 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: to be debt funded. So now you're going to have 93 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: a big old fight tomorrow. It's going to be all 94 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: over the news about which one of you two is 95 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: actually right. 96 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: Well, the Prime Minister is correct and I'm correct, which 97 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: is we're not adding any more funding too. 98 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: Feel like you guys male yourselves okay. 99 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: By trying, Yeah, I think that you're I think you're 100 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 2: being too clever, which is it's pretty simple. We're not 101 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: going to actually add more spending in the budget in 102 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: order to prioritize some extra support for low income families. 103 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: We're not doing that. We're not going to be adding 104 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 2: to the debt in order to do this. We're doing 105 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: it from within our existing budget constraints. 106 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: Okay, So tell me how much is it costing the 107 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: country to give free money to a profitable company being 108 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,679 Speaker 1: Meridian to plant ev charges up and down this country. 109 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: How much is it costing us? 110 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 2: Well, what we're actually doing is accelerating the rollout of 111 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: electrical vehicle charges two thousand and five hundred more. They're 112 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: doing it much faster than they would otherwise do, and 113 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: we've allocated fifty two million dollars to achieve that. And 114 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: we're doing it at a much lower cost than the 115 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: previous scheme which was in place, which had a cost 116 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: to the tax payer of about forty thousand per charger. 117 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: We've got that cost down to around ten thousand per charger. 118 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: Its interest free. Loans will get the loans paid back. 119 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: Okay, but what is it costing us because we are put. 120 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: It that's going on two million. 121 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: Dollars, Yeah, which they pay back, right, that's. 122 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: Right, And sixty million dollars is what they've pledged to accelerate. 123 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: But what so the fifty two million, just because I 124 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: want to be I want to understand this, the fifty 125 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: two million is the loan. They will pay that back 126 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: in its entirety. But that is take We are paying 127 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: for that with debt, right, so we have to pay 128 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: for that money. How much does that cost us? Does 129 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: not cost neutral to New Zealand? 130 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: No, that is funding that we allocated in previous budgets, 131 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 2: and so we've already allocated that funding. That is the 132 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 2: fifty two million that we're borrowing. 133 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: It it's borrowed money. How much does it cost us 134 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: to borrow fifty two million dollars? 135 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: Look, it is the case that across the last two budgets, 136 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: when we've been committing funding to new things, whether that's 137 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 2: frontline police or whether that's increased support for teachers to 138 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 2: teach our kids how to read, write and do maths, 139 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 2: that we have been in a position where the country 140 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 2: is borrowing. 141 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: The case we're borrowing so people can teach our kids. 142 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: Why are we borrowing money to give it to a 143 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: profitable power company to do something that they would otherwise 144 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: not be doing. That's silly, isn't it. 145 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: Well, much like a previous national government recognize that if 146 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: you want people to have ultra fast broadband in their 147 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: homes and deliver all of the economic benefits that brings, 148 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 2: you actually have to work alongside the private sector to 149 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: accelerate that infrastructure role. And you'll remember that government committed 150 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: funds to work with others to roll out that infrastructure. 151 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: We think there is a case for the government working 152 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: with the private sector to fast track the rollout of 153 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: EV charging infrastructure, because without that infrastructure, it's going to 154 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: be much harder for many Keywis to buy an EV. 155 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: We're not subsidizing Tesla's Instead, what we're saying is there's 156 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: a role for government and making sure the infrastructure of 157 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 2: a charging network is available, so if people want to 158 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: buy an EV, they can do so knowing they can 159 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: get it charged. 160 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: Okay, Is Chris Bishop going to defer or cancel some 161 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: of the Roads of National Significance. 162 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: Well, what he has said is we are looking at 163 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: our whole transport program at the moment because a lot 164 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: of that is predicated on proposals to increase the fuel 165 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: tax in the future. Given what's happening with fuel prices, 166 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: it is appropriate that we consider, well, are we actually 167 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: going to be able to do that, or are there 168 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: other measures that we could take within the trend Sport program. 169 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: We haven't made decisions. Cabinet hasn't considered any changes to 170 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: the program. We remain committed to the Roads of National Significance. 171 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: We remain committed to a long term infrastructure pipeline that 172 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: sees state highways being expanded the maintenance to the roads. 173 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: But how we sequence and phase that program is a 174 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: question we're asking because, as you'd expect, a good government 175 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: looking at massive fuel price increases and a hit to 176 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 2: the economy has to look make day. Does this make 177 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: sense now? Look, we'll be having those discussions as a 178 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: cabinet over the coming weeks and. 179 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: Months before it would it be before the election. 180 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: Well, we'll certainly have more to say about our transport program. 181 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 2: He did the election. 182 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you, Nicol. I appreciated. That's Nicholaullless the Finance 183 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: min It's the sixteen part. Oh by, If you haven't 184 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: caught up on this Roads of National Significance thing, it's 185 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: probably potentially significant. So I'll run you through that short list. 186 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 187 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 188 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.