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Speaker 1: Now as we know, the International Criminal Court has issued

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Speaker 1: a warrant for the arrest of Israeli Prime Minister being

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Speaker 1: him and Netan Yahoo. Now this means that if Netanyao

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Speaker 1: who sets foot in any of the one hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty four countries that are signatories to the ICC, and

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Speaker 1: that includes US, the authorities are expected to arrest him

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Speaker 1: and hand him over to the court for trial. Israel,

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Speaker 1: which is not a signatory to the ICC, has condemned

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Speaker 1: the decision. Now. Truss Dunworth is an associate professor at

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Speaker 1: Auckland University. Hey Trusse, Hi, Heather Trusse. He's not going

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Speaker 1: to get arrested, is he?

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Speaker 2: He may well get arrested. It depends on where he goes.

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Speaker 1: So if he stays in Israel, not a signatory, he's okay.

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Speaker 1: If he goes to the US, he's okay. Presumably, Actually

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Speaker 1: what happens when he got quite interested to know what

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Speaker 1: happens if he goes to any of the European countries

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Speaker 1: who are signatories but are supplying arms, are they necessarily

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Speaker 1: going to hand him over?

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Speaker 2: Well, we don't know whether they're going to hand him

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Speaker 2: over or not, but they're certainly legally a blig to

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Speaker 2: hand him over, and a number of the states already

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Speaker 2: today the European states have started making official statements about

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Speaker 2: what their position would be, and some of them are

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Speaker 2: very clear that they will surrender, like the Netherlands has

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Speaker 2: said it will surrender, and the Netherlands supply components of

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Speaker 2: the f thirty five's to Israel, but they have specifically

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Speaker 2: said that they would surrender. To my knowledge, Germany hasn't

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Speaker 2: yet made a statement. France has said that it is

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Speaker 2: mindful of its obligations and it will act in line

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Speaker 2: with the Rome Statute, but when specifically asked would it surrender,

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Speaker 2: it said that that was a legally complex question, and

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Speaker 2: the UK stated that it respected its obligations under the

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Speaker 2: Rome Statute. But when it was against specific asked what

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Speaker 2: would they do if Annetta now who was in their territory,

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Speaker 2: it didn't. It fudged the answer basically. So we just

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Speaker 2: don't know what's going to happen. Trust.

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Speaker 1: So this is a big move for the ICC because

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it fair to say it's actually put

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Speaker 1: its own reputation on the line here.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't see how this is a matter for

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Speaker 2: the ICC's reputation.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, let me outline it to you. So, first

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Speaker 1: of all, this is the first time it's issued, as

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Speaker 1: far as I can see, issued a warrant for the

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Speaker 1: arrest of a democratically elected leader. Secondly, this is a

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Speaker 1: leader supported by Western allies, which is pretty unusual. And

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Speaker 1: then thirdly, if it gets to the point that he

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Speaker 1: actually turns up in any of these countries, for example,

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Speaker 1: the UK and France and they don't hand him over,

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Speaker 1: that's really undermining of the ICC, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Well, you've raised a number of questions. We might say

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Speaker 2: that it has enhanced the ICC's reputation that it has

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Speaker 2: been prepared to issue. You're an arrest warrant for someone

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Speaker 2: where there is ample evidence to have a reasonable belief

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Speaker 2: that there would be a conviction if he came to trial,

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Speaker 2: and yet he is a Western ally Because over the

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Speaker 2: last couple of decades, the criticism of the court has

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Speaker 2: been that it just goes after the African states and

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Speaker 2: heads of states from the global South, and that it

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Speaker 2: is in fact biased in that way. So in one

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Speaker 2: sense we could say that this might kind of set

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Speaker 2: the record straight.

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Speaker 1: Do you think though, that it risks maybe losing membership. No,

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Speaker 1: you don't think anybody's going to say this is to

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Speaker 1: a bridge too far. We support the sky, we're going

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Speaker 1: to pull out.

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Speaker 2: No, who would do that?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: States except for the United States hasn't joined us.

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Speaker 1: Yes, no, okay, does he have any appeal rights here?

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Speaker 2: He will have an appeal right, So if he is convicted,

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Speaker 2: he will have appeal rights he has had in terms

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Speaker 2: of the issuing. You know, because it was six months

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Speaker 2: ago that the prosecutor of the court applied to the

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Speaker 2: chambers or to the judges for an issue of an

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Speaker 2: arrest warrant and Israel exercised its right to there weren't appeals,

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Speaker 2: but there were challenges to the court's authority, and in

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Speaker 2: issuing these arrest warrants, the court has also said, we

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Speaker 2: don't accept your arguments that this case is inadmissible, and

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Speaker 2: we don't accept your arguments that we don't have jurisdiction.

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Speaker 2: So they're not exactly appeal rights because they are challenges

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Speaker 2: prior to the decision. But of course if there was

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Speaker 2: a trial and a conviction, there would be appeal rights

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Speaker 2: in the usual.

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Speaker 1: Trust a listen, fascinating topic. Thank you so much. For

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Speaker 1: giving us your thoughts on that that's trusted done with

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Speaker 1: Associate professor at the University of Auckland's Faculty of Law.

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Speaker 1: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive Listen live to

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