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Speaker 1: New Zealand's long awaited new defense plan has been delayed

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Speaker 1: once again, and the Defense Minister has blamed a worsening

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Speaker 1: security situation in the Pacific. The Defense Capability Plan is

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Speaker 1: supposed to lay out our defense spending for the coming decades,

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Speaker 1: but a Chinese intercontinental ballistic missile with a mock warhead

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Speaker 1: landed near French Polynesia in September. In the last month

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Speaker 1: of Chinese Chinese Navy destroyer visited Vanuatu. Defense Minister jud

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Speaker 1: Collins is with us this afternoon. Good afternoon, afternoon, Jack,

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Speaker 1: Just how concerning are those recent events.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's quite it's quite concerning because they are different

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Speaker 2: from what we've seen before, and the recent Chinese Navy

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Speaker 2: ren high class cruiser and destroyer visiting Port Vila, Vanuatu

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Speaker 2: in October this year, that's the first time we've seen

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Speaker 2: the ships of that capability in that position when they

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Speaker 2: weren't just coming back from somewhere else and stopping. So

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Speaker 2: it's certainly much more militarization now within the Pacific.

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Speaker 1: So how has it changed your plans when it comes

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Speaker 1: to the Defense Capability Plan.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the fact is that we have to

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Speaker 2: be aware that a small nation like us. We can't

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Speaker 2: do everything that we would like to do, but it

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Speaker 2: is important to understand that even the shyer things have changed.

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Speaker 2: So we've also had that intercontinental ballistic missile at the

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Speaker 2: end of September from China, which went around eleven thousand,

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Speaker 2: two hundred kilometers. It's the sort of thing that could

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Speaker 2: reach New Zealand. So everything starting to move up, and

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Speaker 2: certainly the Navy needs a lot of rebuild and we

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Speaker 2: have to look at things like replacing the frigates. And

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Speaker 2: we're also looking at newer warfare situations where things like

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Speaker 2: drones and other technical new technologies or relatively new. So

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Speaker 2: I think, really what's done is we say everything's moved

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Speaker 2: up this year, so up.

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Speaker 1: And toil this point? Did the plan not give sufficient

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Speaker 1: weight to potential risks from China?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think what defense we're working on and I

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Speaker 2: asked them to do so when I became the minister

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Speaker 2: to rethink things. I don't things hadn't moved as much,

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Speaker 2: I think, and perhaps Defense was thinking, well, hopefully things

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Speaker 2: won't get much worse, but actually the world has got

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Speaker 2: a lot worse. So if I just consider the China's

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Speaker 2: operating twenty three destroyers launched in the last ten years

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Speaker 2: compared to eleven operational US destroyers. You're talking about quite

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Speaker 2: a big shift in resources. And yes, things have changed.

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Speaker 2: So you know, also, you know, the North Korean's going

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Speaker 2: off to help the Russians in Ukraine. All of these

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Speaker 2: things are happening the South China see situation. So yes,

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Speaker 2: it's a bigger game. And the last time there was

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Speaker 2: a defense capability plan was about four years ago under

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Speaker 2: the previous government, and the problem there is that it

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Speaker 2: wasn't funded at all. So I think, you know, we're

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Speaker 2: trying to be very realistic about what we can do,

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Speaker 2: what we can fund, and also what we might need

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Speaker 2: to how we might need to reassess it if things

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Speaker 2: get worse.

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Speaker 1: So you said today quote people need to understand that

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Speaker 1: if a missile can go to Kiddy Bus, it can

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Speaker 1: get to New Zealand. What do you mean by.

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Speaker 2: Much, Well, it's we're not We can't sit down this

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Speaker 2: end of the world and say that we're just safe

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Speaker 2: hiding down here and no one's going to notice. I

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Speaker 2: think we need to be also aware, for instance, in Antarctica,

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Speaker 2: where we have you know, Scott Base, where the Americans

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Speaker 2: haven't murdered, but base China has built five new bases

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Speaker 2: there recently, and they're looking for their six. These are

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Speaker 2: all things that people should be aware of. It's important

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Speaker 2: for space work, it's important for ten other communications, it's

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Speaker 2: important for spying. Actually, all these things are very important.

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Speaker 2: So we just need to be aware that the game

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Speaker 2: has changed.

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Speaker 1: Labour's ruled out joining Orcust Pillar two and says that

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Speaker 1: it would pull out if your government decided to join

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Speaker 1: before the next election. What do you make of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty disappointing. I mean, Labor and Chris Hopkins

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Speaker 2: were very keen to explore Pillar two of Aucus when

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Speaker 2: they were in government, and suddenly now they're not. I

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Speaker 2: think also is that they've said that they've said that

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Speaker 2: the Chinese ambassador to New Zealand has been has basically

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Speaker 2: berated New Zealand over looking at Aucust Pillar two. Well know,

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Speaker 2: New Zealand's foreign policy to be actually determined in Wellington,

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Speaker 2: not by for New Zealand, by New Zealanders, not by

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Speaker 2: other countries or their ambassadors. So I think that's pretty disappointing.

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Speaker 2: It's the first of overt politicization of foreign policy that

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Speaker 2: we've seen in quite a while, and I like to

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Speaker 2: hope that it's a bit like the tpp A, which

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Speaker 2: they were completely against and in opposition. As soon as

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Speaker 2: they got in the government put CTP on it NEXTRA

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Speaker 2: one and suddenly it was all their ideas. So who knows,

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Speaker 2: but I think it is pretty disappointing. I mean our

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Speaker 2: meeting this week with the Australian Labor Minister for Defense

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Speaker 2: and Deputy Prime Minster Peters is meeting with Penny Wong,

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Speaker 2: the Foreign Minister for Australia. Their Labor, they're hardcore concerned

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Speaker 2: about the security of their country. I'd say Chris Hopkins

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Speaker 2: should be too.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that Beijing is pulling the strings when

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Speaker 1: it comes to Labor's foreign policy? Is that what you

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Speaker 1: were suggesting?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't know who's pulling their strings, and frankly,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't know who is. But I think

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Speaker 2: the point is for Labor is that they're rushing to

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Speaker 2: try and throw up the Green vote or their Mari party.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they're doing, but I do think

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Speaker 2: they're acting in a very political way when foreign policy

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Speaker 2: has always been something that we have tried very very

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Speaker 2: hard to have a bipartisan arrangement on they've just gone

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Speaker 2: out and done this with our enny discussion with us,

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Speaker 2: So basically they're saying that they're on their own.

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Speaker 1: All right, Thanks for your time, we appreciate it. That

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Speaker 1: is Defense Minister Judith Collins. For more from Hither Duplessy

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