WEBVTT - Experts push back against WorkSafe reforms - as research warns of potential for a Pike River repeat 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:05.440 Hilda. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.800 I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:15.840 daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. A new 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:20.800 study suggests that another Pike River mine disaster is likely. 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:25.560 The Victoria University of Wellington researchers say the failures that 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.560 led to the disaster that killed twenty nine men in 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:33.280 twenty ten could happen again at any other organization. One 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:38.680 of their potentially disturbing observations is that health and safety training, 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:43.400 auditors and well qualified staff were not enough to prevent failure, 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:48.560 and may also have provided an illusion of certainty and overconfidence. 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.240 The new research has come amidst a slew of changes 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.960 to health and safety legislation being pushed through by the government, 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.720 which has sparked warnings from advocates. One of those advocates 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:04.080 is Like Cosmon, an independent health and safety practitioner who 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.160 sat on the Independent Task Force on Workplace Health and 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:11.560 Safety established after the Pike River disaster. He joins us 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.440 now on the Front Page to discuss this new study 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:22.560 and the proposed changes. So this new case study of 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.319 Pike River warns we could very well see another similar 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.119 disaster in the future, even fifteen years on You've done 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.280 a lot of work around workplace health and safety of 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.440 course over the decades. Tell me what have we learned 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.559 since then? If anything, I think what we've. 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.840 Learned is that disasters can still happen. Obviously Pike River 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:47.640 was the most relevant one in this context, but it 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.960 wasn't the first disaster that we had in the mining industry. 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:55.080 If we look internationally, we know that disasters have occurred 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:59.440 in a whole variety of different spectors, ranging from adventure 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:06.160 activity with dream world, chemical plant, mines, ferries, railways and 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.600 the like. And so I think one of the things 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.640 that we have to reflect on is the fact that 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.520 wherever there are activities that involve a lot of people 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.560 and a lot of energy, then the potential for that 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.560 energy to be released and people to be harmed is 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.720 ever present. And whilst it may be very rare, when 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.160 it does happen, it's catastrophic. And so the challenge for 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:32.760 busy managers and directors is to say, well, you know, 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.720 is it worth investing in reducing the likelihood of this 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.480 occurring when I've got more pressing problems that I have 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.400 to deal with immediately. And I think the Pike River 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.520 case study shows that they were kicking the can down 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.680 the road, hoping that things would come right and that 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.880 they would be able to generate revenue, get into better 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.360 quality conditions, get the machinery working properly, get the team 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:02.399 working cohesively, and that all of this would actually make 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.840 things better, whereas in fact, as we know, the explosion 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.160 occurred within a month of them actually trying to go 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:10.040 into full production. 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:14.000 The lead author of this study, doctor Richard Logan, has 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:18.440 said whilst the subsequent Royal Commission of Inquiry investigated and 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.920 reported their findings as to the causes of the disaster, 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.120 and this was followed by a number of articles and books, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:29.200 there is a general sense of unfinished business, especially in 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:34.240 the leadership and governance space. So has anything changed or 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.640 how do we change that leadership and governance space. 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.800 I spend a lot of my time working with boards 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.600 and senior leadership teams, and I think that there has 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:49.760 been a significant shift. I think that they are more engaged. Clearly, 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:54.320 part of the regulatory change that I was involved with 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.360 leading was around creating this proactive due diligence duty, so 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.080 that actually there is a very clear expectation not just 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.400 that you wait to be told but that as a director, 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.240 you need to find out, you need to ask the questions, 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.360 you need to seek the information that you need in 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.040 order to understand your risks. So a lot of effort 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.680 has gone in particularly i would say, at the at 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.880 the big end of town. But what I'm seeing is 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.279 less focus in smaller businesses governance perhaps doesn't exist in 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.880 the traditional form, or where the governance skills don't exist 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.480 as they might amongst professional directors. I'm seeing it in 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.040 offshore owned businesses in New Zealand, where we are simply 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.800 a part of a much larger global business and where 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.440 perhaps health and safety doesn't have as much focus. But 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.680 we're also seeing people like the Institute of Directors and 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:49.120 the guidance that was produced last year really signaling clearly 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.880 what director should do. And then the most recent prosecution 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.640 of Tony Gibson, the former chief executive of Ports of Auckland, 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.000 have actually demonstrated that at least one of the regulators 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.880 in the form of Maritime New Zealand, is willing to 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.839 actually put that to the test and has secured a 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:11.400 conviction in relation to what they believe the chief executive 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.200 in a high risk business with a portrack record should 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.120 be expected to do, but noticing of course that that 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:19.360 is subject to appeal. 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.360 What I can tell you is that in the opportunity 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.520 I've had to speak to the family members and the 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.279 time that I spent with them, there is an awful 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.720 lot of sorrow in that room, but not anger. People 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.920 realize that this has been a great tragedy. They deserve answers, 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.480 and in due course we will have a proper investigation 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:47.080 to deliver them those answers. But for now, people are 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:52.320 recognizing the scale of the tragedy and taking solace from 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.440 the fact that so many people from around the world 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.120 are giving them comfort, love and support. 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.360 When you sat on the Independent Task Force on Workplace 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.320 and Health and Safety, what were some of the recommendations 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.120 that were actually then made into law. 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:13.000 We made a whole series of recommendations, and part of 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.840 the framing that we used was that it was like 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.559 a cloak. I think we actually had a fucker toki 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.400 that said, a carefully woven cloak is a protection for 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.960 us all. And we said to the Minister at the time, 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.360 who was Simon Bridges, this is not a Chinese restaurant 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.440 menu where you can pick and mix these things all 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.400 have to be mutually reinforcing, so if you're going to 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.599 do it, do it all. He agreed, and for a 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.200 time it looked as if officials agreed, but then other 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.760 priorities prevailed and what we ended up with was exactly 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.119 what we'd feared, which was only some of the recommendations 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.359 being implemented. So if we take one of the issues 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:54.120 that the Minister is currently talking about, which is around 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.400 clarity and certainty for business as to what they need 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.880 to be doing in certain circumstances, that was a clear 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.640 recommendation from the task Force. There was a roadmap of 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.320 new regulations that was planned, but it stalled, and so 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:14.520 we've got significant gaps in the regulatory framework. And that 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.480 means that there are lots of areas, very important areas, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:22.480 where the detail isn't simply there to support businesses to 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.880 know what they should be doing. And unfortunately that hasn't 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.960 been helped because of the relatively small number of cases 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.240 that go to court and actually get determined, and so 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.680 we're not building up that case law, that jurisprudence that 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.760 actually tells us what the courts of interpreted parliaments intend 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.880 to be. And so whilst I disagree with the majority 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.520 of the minister's proposals. The one thing that I think 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.040 everybody agrees on is that we do need up to 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.960 date relevant guidance to support business to know how to 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:55.760 do the right thing. 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:01.240 Of those recommendations that you made that ever made into legislation, 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.120 if you had a magic pen and you had the 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:07.280 ability to sign something off tomorrow, what do you think 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:08.640 should be on the top of the list. 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.000 So for me, it's actually seeing health and safety as 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.920 being about a system, and it's a system that needs 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.280 governance just the same as a business needs governance. So 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.640 one of the recommendations that we made and which was 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.480 implemented but probably in name rather than substance, is having 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.520 a national strategy around health and safety, but that strategy 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.680 actually having some oversight and some teeth. So our national strategy, 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.760 which is produced in twenty eighteen, there's probably about three 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.520 people in the country who are aware of it and 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.360 nobody who's actually doing anything to bring it about. So 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:48.559 there's no implementation plan for the strategy. We've got different agencies, 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:53.880 both public sector agencies like acc Work Safe, NZTA, Maritime 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.120 New Zealand, all doing their thing but not really being 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.079 joined up as part of a cohesive approach. We've got 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.480 different parts of the private sector, whether it's private insurers, 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:08.280 whether it's the medical system, the training system, health and safety, 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:12.520 professional workers. All of them are trying hard, but there 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.200 is no governance. There's no overseeing group as they have 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.760 in other countries, which is taking that bigger picture of 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.240 you and saying how do we make sure that the 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.439 whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.080 at the moment we're being busy, but we're not necessarily 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:29.040 being very effective. 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.960 Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brook van Velden has made 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.080 a number of changes over the last year to health 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.480 and safety regulation. The most recent change is that this 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.240 government wants work safe to become a more supportive regulator, 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.920 to ditch its adversarial culture and focus on managing critical risks. 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.920 According to a report in The Herald, what do you 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:01.520 make of this change? 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:05.080 So the first thing is that nothing that she says 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.680 appears to be based on any evidence that it will 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.559 actually improve health and safety. So the driver is about 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:17.240 reducing burdens on business improving productivity, which are all worthwhile, 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:21.680 but ultimately the objective I believe has to be about 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.280 will it reduce the burden of harm that our workers 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.800 and our social welfare system, and our medical system and 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:34.600 familism baro are all experiencing every single day. So critical risk, yes, 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.560 because those are areas that cause the greatest harm in 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.840 terms of severity, so the things that kill people. But 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.960 that is being part of the regulator's agenda for many years. 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:51.040 They've prioritized forestry and construction and agriculture and manufacturing and transport, 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.840 so there's nothing new in that space. But by focusing 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.559 exclusively on critical risk, you actually miss out on things 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.320 such as like a social or harm, which we know 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.000 is a massive burden on all of society. We've got 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.839 some of the worst suicide rates in the world and 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.200 workplace factors are a significant contribution to that. It ignores 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.800 the things that cost acc and therefore us the most 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.800 amount of money, which is musculo scletal disorders. They wouldn't 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.040 be classed as critical risks, and so by saying that 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.600 the out of scope for the legislation and the regulator, 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.800 we're actually dismissing, you know, the many hundreds of thousands 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:33.720 of people with damage backs and chronic injuries that don't 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.040 meet the definition. So I think she's being somewhat dogmatic 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:40.280 in her approach. What it needs is a much more 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:45.400 nuanced approach. It isn't a question of guidance or regulation. 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.480 The two have to work hand in hand. She also, 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.760 I think, seems to be implying by talking about work 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.720 Safe being more business friendly, that they should be out 0:11:55.760 --> 0:12:01.520 there actually acting as publicly funded business advisors. Now you 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.920 know that is not the regulator's role. Businesses have to 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.480 own their own risks, They have to seek their own advice. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.520 The regulator should provide the guidance, but the guidance will 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.560 only be generic. How you implement it in your business 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.080 will be something that each business has to work out 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.400 for itself, and so I think it's the simplistic some 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:24.440 of it, I would say is driven by dogma rather 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.559 than by genuine care for improving worker health and safety. 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.840 On the work safe side, I'm going to direct work 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:38.120 Safe to confirm and provide guidance on instances of road 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.800 cone over compliance. There will be a hotline for the 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.760 public to report on excessive road cone use they might 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.960 find out in the wild. Having work Safe focus on 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.680 this will be a culture shift for the agency, but 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.880 it signifies the broader direction this government is taking with 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.200 the health and safety system. This is just the start 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.760 of the reform program. I'll be seeking care cabnet decisions 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.880 on further issues in the coming months. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.920 There have also been changes removing responsibility for company directors 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.240 and boards for health and safety risks, a removal of 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:17.800 liability for land owners when it comes to recreational activities, 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.600 and some leeway for small businesses around non critical risks. 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:23.920 Now I understand from some previous comments you've made in 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.080 the media that you aren't a big fan of these changes. 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.320 I think that would be putting it politely. At the moment, 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.280 there are only proposals, so nothing has actually changed. So 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.760 we had a cabinet paper back in March. We'll have 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.600 another cabinet paper in May, and obviously the Minister will 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.320 need to bring forward more detailed proposals for legislative change 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.400 through the Select committee process, which is obviously when you 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.120 know we will be putting our submissions together. Removing director 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.640 responsibilities I think is absolutely a mistake. As we've just 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.920 been discussing. You know, tone from the top is crucial. 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.200 If directors aren't fully committed to health and safety, they'd 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:04.080 be no surprise if managers and supervisors and frontline workers 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.160 get the message that it's all about production and safety 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.360 is a nice to have, not a mat out. In 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.360 terms of small businesses, we know that actually small businesses 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:16.200 health and safety record is worse than larger businesses because 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.880 they don't have the capacity and capability to manage risks 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:24.440 as well as larger organization. So yes, focus their attention 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.520 on the things that are going to kill and permanently 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.560 disabled people. But once we start exempting things, and we 0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:34.360 saw this a few years ago when there was an 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:38.680 attempt to exempt certain small businesses from requiring them to 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.520 have health and safety reps if requested, and it ended 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.800 up with all sorts of anomalies where farming was considered 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.160 low risk, and yet we know it's got one of 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.280 the highest fatality rates of any industry. And so I think, 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.040 you know, the minister is playing to an audience. You know, 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.240 if we take the whole Cones issue, which has been 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:58.720 a complete distraction. 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.640 Oh god, it's just a headline grab. I think it is. 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.520 I mean, I think what the media refer to it 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:05.280 as a dead cat. So you throw a dead cat 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.640 on the table and everybody focuses on the dead cat 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.240 and not on the issue that we were talking about previously. 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.840 And they've been highly successful because everybody now talks about cones, 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:18.120 and cones have become demonized. And yet actually we know 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.080 that the risks to both road workers and road users 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.600 when roadworks are taking place, it's potentially very high. Yes, 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:27.960 we can always improve, you know, making sure the cones 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.280 are removed once the work has finished, you know, looking 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.160 at alternative ways of protecting the workplace, but that work 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.960 was ongoing two three years ago. It's a big change 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.040 that's occurring in that industry, but it also requires some 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.240 tough choices, such as close the road rather than put 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.880 cones in and out, you know, at nine point thirty 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:50.840 every morning and take them back in again at three 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.520 o'clock every afternoon, which slows the work down. It puts 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.400 everybody at more risk because the process of putting out 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.160 and taking in the traffic management is one of the 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.800 highest risk times. And actually, by demonizing cones, what we're 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:07.280 seeing is that road workers are being demonized. So one 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.880 of my clients is heavily involved in this work and 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:15.320 their staff are getting spat at, they're getting things thrown 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.920 at them, they're getting people driving at them deliberately because 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.840 they are seen now as being the cause of the 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.600 delays that are occurring whilst the roads are being fit. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.840 And so the level of violence and aggression toward road 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:33.800 workers and the lack of adherence to roadwork signage, whether 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.320 it's about speed limits or not driving too fast on 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:41.680 roads that have just been resurfaced, is actually creating many, 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.960 many more problems rather than actually addressing the ones that 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:46.320 we already working on. 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.760 So, if work Safe is going to focus on critical 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.560 risks and the threat of another Pike River could be 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.400 described as such, what would you like to see change 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.520 to prevent that? Because at the moment, all I'm thinking is, oh, 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.520 these are all going to look nice on a three 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.640 poster in the mail room, do you know what I mean? Like, 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:09.720 what incentive other than trying not to kill your workers 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.480 do those directors do those company owners have at the 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.640 moment to implement these changes? 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.760 So I think what I would like to see is 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:25.400 that there is much more collaborative work around critical risk. So, 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.760 rather than a transactional approach where an individual inspector visits 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.840 an individual business to talk about how they're managing a 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:36.000 particular activity, is actually to get the key movers and 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.440 shakers in that sector or in relation to that risk 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:44.040 together and actually agree how do we move standards forward 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.000 in a managed way, because one of the challenges, particularly 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.919 if we start to reduce the amount of enforcement, is 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.919 that it actually makes life harder for the good performance. 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.240 So somebody who's actually invested in improving health and safety 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.119 is likely to be at a competitive disadvantage against somebody 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.639 who hasn't made that investment, but who the regulator is 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.240 not actually holding to account. So I think it's in 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.679 everybody's best interest to have that clarity. This is what 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.000 we're trying to achieve, this is the best way to 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.720 achieve it. Here's the guidance that sets out in broad 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.959 terms how we go about doing it. And this is 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.720 how individually and collectively the various parts of the system 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.320 are going to hold you to account. We're actually doing it, 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.199 and that, from my experience back in the UK, is 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.919 how you get sustainable change because we're all moving in 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.720 the same direction together. We're not using health and safety 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.760 as something that we compete against each other on. And 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:44.560 actually that process is where the regulator needs to lead 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:46.919 because they are the only ones who at the end 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.840 of the day, actually have the power and the authority 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.639 to drive change if they can't actually achieve it in 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:54.800 a more collaborative way. 0:18:55.000 --> 0:19:02.199 Thanks for joining us, Mike, my pleasure. That's it for 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:05.320 this episode of The Front Page. You can read more 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:10.040 about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzedherld dot 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.719 co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.640 Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer. 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.560 I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.240 or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:28.520 for another look behind the headlines.