1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Hilda. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. A new 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 2: study suggests that another Pike River mine disaster is likely. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 2: The Victoria University of Wellington researchers say the failures that 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: led to the disaster that killed twenty nine men in 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: twenty ten could happen again at any other organization. One 8 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: of their potentially disturbing observations is that health and safety training, 9 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: auditors and well qualified staff were not enough to prevent failure, 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 2: and may also have provided an illusion of certainty and overconfidence. 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: The new research has come amidst a slew of changes 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 2: to health and safety legislation being pushed through by the government, 13 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: which has sparked warnings from advocates. One of those advocates 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: is Like Cosmon, an independent health and safety practitioner who 15 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: sat on the Independent Task Force on Workplace Health and 16 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: Safety established after the Pike River disaster. He joins us 17 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: now on the Front Page to discuss this new study 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: and the proposed changes. So this new case study of 19 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: Pike River warns we could very well see another similar 20 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 2: disaster in the future, even fifteen years on You've done 21 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: a lot of work around workplace health and safety of 22 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: course over the decades. Tell me what have we learned 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 2: since then? If anything, I think what we've. 24 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 3: Learned is that disasters can still happen. Obviously Pike River 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 3: was the most relevant one in this context, but it 26 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 3: wasn't the first disaster that we had in the mining industry. 27 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 3: If we look internationally, we know that disasters have occurred 28 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 3: in a whole variety of different spectors, ranging from adventure 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: activity with dream world, chemical plant, mines, ferries, railways and 30 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 3: the like. And so I think one of the things 31 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 3: that we have to reflect on is the fact that 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 3: wherever there are activities that involve a lot of people 33 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: and a lot of energy, then the potential for that 34 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 3: energy to be released and people to be harmed is 35 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: ever present. And whilst it may be very rare, when 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: it does happen, it's catastrophic. And so the challenge for 37 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: busy managers and directors is to say, well, you know, 38 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: is it worth investing in reducing the likelihood of this 39 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 3: occurring when I've got more pressing problems that I have 40 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 3: to deal with immediately. And I think the Pike River 41 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 3: case study shows that they were kicking the can down 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 3: the road, hoping that things would come right and that 43 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 3: they would be able to generate revenue, get into better 44 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 3: quality conditions, get the machinery working properly, get the team 45 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 3: working cohesively, and that all of this would actually make 46 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 3: things better, whereas in fact, as we know, the explosion 47 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 3: occurred within a month of them actually trying to go 48 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 3: into full production. 49 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: The lead author of this study, doctor Richard Logan, has 50 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 2: said whilst the subsequent Royal Commission of Inquiry investigated and 51 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: reported their findings as to the causes of the disaster, 52 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 2: and this was followed by a number of articles and books, 53 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: there is a general sense of unfinished business, especially in 54 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 2: the leadership and governance space. So has anything changed or 55 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: how do we change that leadership and governance space. 56 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 3: I spend a lot of my time working with boards 57 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: and senior leadership teams, and I think that there has 58 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: been a significant shift. I think that they are more engaged. Clearly, 59 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 3: part of the regulatory change that I was involved with 60 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 3: leading was around creating this proactive due diligence duty, so 61 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 3: that actually there is a very clear expectation not just 62 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 3: that you wait to be told but that as a director, 63 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: you need to find out, you need to ask the questions, 64 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: you need to seek the information that you need in 65 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 3: order to understand your risks. So a lot of effort 66 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: has gone in particularly i would say, at the at 67 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 3: the big end of town. But what I'm seeing is 68 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 3: less focus in smaller businesses governance perhaps doesn't exist in 69 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: the traditional form, or where the governance skills don't exist 70 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 3: as they might amongst professional directors. I'm seeing it in 71 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 3: offshore owned businesses in New Zealand, where we are simply 72 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: a part of a much larger global business and where 73 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 3: perhaps health and safety doesn't have as much focus. But 74 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 3: we're also seeing people like the Institute of Directors and 75 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: the guidance that was produced last year really signaling clearly 76 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 3: what director should do. And then the most recent prosecution 77 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 3: of Tony Gibson, the former chief executive of Ports of Auckland, 78 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: have actually demonstrated that at least one of the regulators 79 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 3: in the form of Maritime New Zealand, is willing to 80 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 3: actually put that to the test and has secured a 81 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: conviction in relation to what they believe the chief executive 82 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 3: in a high risk business with a portrack record should 83 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: be expected to do, but noticing of course that that 84 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 3: is subject to appeal. 85 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: What I can tell you is that in the opportunity 86 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: I've had to speak to the family members and the 87 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: time that I spent with them, there is an awful 88 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: lot of sorrow in that room, but not anger. People 89 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: realize that this has been a great tragedy. They deserve answers, 90 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: and in due course we will have a proper investigation 91 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: to deliver them those answers. But for now, people are 92 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: recognizing the scale of the tragedy and taking solace from 93 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: the fact that so many people from around the world 94 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: are giving them comfort, love and support. 95 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: When you sat on the Independent Task Force on Workplace 96 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: and Health and Safety, what were some of the recommendations 97 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: that were actually then made into law. 98 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 3: We made a whole series of recommendations, and part of 99 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 3: the framing that we used was that it was like 100 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,559 Speaker 3: a cloak. I think we actually had a fucker toki 101 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 3: that said, a carefully woven cloak is a protection for 102 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 3: us all. And we said to the Minister at the time, 103 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 3: who was Simon Bridges, this is not a Chinese restaurant 104 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: menu where you can pick and mix these things all 105 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: have to be mutually reinforcing, so if you're going to 106 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 3: do it, do it all. He agreed, and for a 107 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 3: time it looked as if officials agreed, but then other 108 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 3: priorities prevailed and what we ended up with was exactly 109 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,119 Speaker 3: what we'd feared, which was only some of the recommendations 110 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 3: being implemented. So if we take one of the issues 111 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: that the Minister is currently talking about, which is around 112 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 3: clarity and certainty for business as to what they need 113 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: to be doing in certain circumstances, that was a clear 114 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 3: recommendation from the task Force. There was a roadmap of 115 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 3: new regulations that was planned, but it stalled, and so 116 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 3: we've got significant gaps in the regulatory framework. And that 117 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 3: means that there are lots of areas, very important areas, 118 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: where the detail isn't simply there to support businesses to 119 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 3: know what they should be doing. And unfortunately that hasn't 120 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 3: been helped because of the relatively small number of cases 121 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 3: that go to court and actually get determined, and so 122 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 3: we're not building up that case law, that jurisprudence that 123 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: actually tells us what the courts of interpreted parliaments intend 124 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: to be. And so whilst I disagree with the majority 125 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 3: of the minister's proposals. The one thing that I think 126 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 3: everybody agrees on is that we do need up to 127 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: date relevant guidance to support business to know how to 128 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 3: do the right thing. 129 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 2: Of those recommendations that you made that ever made into legislation, 130 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: if you had a magic pen and you had the 131 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: ability to sign something off tomorrow, what do you think 132 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: should be on the top of the list. 133 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: So for me, it's actually seeing health and safety as 134 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 3: being about a system, and it's a system that needs 135 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 3: governance just the same as a business needs governance. So 136 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: one of the recommendations that we made and which was 137 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 3: implemented but probably in name rather than substance, is having 138 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: a national strategy around health and safety, but that strategy 139 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 3: actually having some oversight and some teeth. So our national strategy, 140 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 3: which is produced in twenty eighteen, there's probably about three 141 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: people in the country who are aware of it and 142 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 3: nobody who's actually doing anything to bring it about. So 143 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 3: there's no implementation plan for the strategy. We've got different agencies, 144 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: both public sector agencies like acc Work Safe, NZTA, Maritime 145 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: New Zealand, all doing their thing but not really being 146 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 3: joined up as part of a cohesive approach. We've got 147 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 3: different parts of the private sector, whether it's private insurers, 148 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 3: whether it's the medical system, the training system, health and safety, 149 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 3: professional workers. All of them are trying hard, but there 150 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 3: is no governance. There's no overseeing group as they have 151 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: in other countries, which is taking that bigger picture of 152 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 3: you and saying how do we make sure that the 153 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 3: whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And 154 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 3: at the moment we're being busy, but we're not necessarily 155 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 3: being very effective. 156 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brook van Velden has made 157 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 2: a number of changes over the last year to health 158 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: and safety regulation. The most recent change is that this 159 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: government wants work safe to become a more supportive regulator, 160 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: to ditch its adversarial culture and focus on managing critical risks. 161 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: According to a report in The Herald, what do you 162 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: make of this change? 163 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 3: So the first thing is that nothing that she says 164 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 3: appears to be based on any evidence that it will 165 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 3: actually improve health and safety. So the driver is about 166 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: reducing burdens on business improving productivity, which are all worthwhile, 167 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 3: but ultimately the objective I believe has to be about 168 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 3: will it reduce the burden of harm that our workers 169 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 3: and our social welfare system, and our medical system and 170 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 3: familism baro are all experiencing every single day. So critical risk, yes, 171 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 3: because those are areas that cause the greatest harm in 172 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: terms of severity, so the things that kill people. But 173 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 3: that is being part of the regulator's agenda for many years. 174 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 3: They've prioritized forestry and construction and agriculture and manufacturing and transport, 175 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 3: so there's nothing new in that space. But by focusing 176 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 3: exclusively on critical risk, you actually miss out on things 177 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 3: such as like a social or harm, which we know 178 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 3: is a massive burden on all of society. We've got 179 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 3: some of the worst suicide rates in the world and 180 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 3: workplace factors are a significant contribution to that. It ignores 181 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: the things that cost acc and therefore us the most 182 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: amount of money, which is musculo scletal disorders. They wouldn't 183 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: be classed as critical risks, and so by saying that 184 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: the out of scope for the legislation and the regulator, 185 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 3: we're actually dismissing, you know, the many hundreds of thousands 186 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 3: of people with damage backs and chronic injuries that don't 187 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 3: meet the definition. So I think she's being somewhat dogmatic 188 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: in her approach. What it needs is a much more 189 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: nuanced approach. It isn't a question of guidance or regulation. 190 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 3: The two have to work hand in hand. She also, 191 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: I think, seems to be implying by talking about work 192 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 3: Safe being more business friendly, that they should be out 193 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: there actually acting as publicly funded business advisors. Now you 194 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 3: know that is not the regulator's role. Businesses have to 195 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 3: own their own risks, They have to seek their own advice. 196 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: The regulator should provide the guidance, but the guidance will 197 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 3: only be generic. How you implement it in your business 198 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 3: will be something that each business has to work out 199 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 3: for itself, and so I think it's the simplistic some 200 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 3: of it, I would say is driven by dogma rather 201 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 3: than by genuine care for improving worker health and safety. 202 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 4: On the work safe side, I'm going to direct work 203 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 4: Safe to confirm and provide guidance on instances of road 204 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 4: cone over compliance. There will be a hotline for the 205 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 4: public to report on excessive road cone use they might 206 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 4: find out in the wild. Having work Safe focus on 207 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 4: this will be a culture shift for the agency, but 208 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 4: it signifies the broader direction this government is taking with 209 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 4: the health and safety system. This is just the start 210 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 4: of the reform program. I'll be seeking care cabnet decisions 211 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 4: on further issues in the coming months. 212 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: There have also been changes removing responsibility for company directors 213 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: and boards for health and safety risks, a removal of 214 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: liability for land owners when it comes to recreational activities, 215 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 2: and some leeway for small businesses around non critical risks. 216 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: Now I understand from some previous comments you've made in 217 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 2: the media that you aren't a big fan of these changes. 218 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 3: I think that would be putting it politely. At the moment, 219 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: there are only proposals, so nothing has actually changed. So 220 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: we had a cabinet paper back in March. We'll have 221 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 3: another cabinet paper in May, and obviously the Minister will 222 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 3: need to bring forward more detailed proposals for legislative change 223 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 3: through the Select committee process, which is obviously when you 224 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 3: know we will be putting our submissions together. Removing director 225 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 3: responsibilities I think is absolutely a mistake. As we've just 226 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 3: been discussing. You know, tone from the top is crucial. 227 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 3: If directors aren't fully committed to health and safety, they'd 228 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 3: be no surprise if managers and supervisors and frontline workers 229 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 3: get the message that it's all about production and safety 230 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 3: is a nice to have, not a mat out. In 231 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 3: terms of small businesses, we know that actually small businesses 232 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 3: health and safety record is worse than larger businesses because 233 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 3: they don't have the capacity and capability to manage risks 234 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 3: as well as larger organization. So yes, focus their attention 235 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 3: on the things that are going to kill and permanently 236 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: disabled people. But once we start exempting things, and we 237 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 3: saw this a few years ago when there was an 238 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: attempt to exempt certain small businesses from requiring them to 239 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 3: have health and safety reps if requested, and it ended 240 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 3: up with all sorts of anomalies where farming was considered 241 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: low risk, and yet we know it's got one of 242 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 3: the highest fatality rates of any industry. And so I think, 243 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 3: you know, the minister is playing to an audience. You know, 244 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 3: if we take the whole Cones issue, which has been 245 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: a complete distraction. 246 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: Oh god, it's just a headline grab. I think it is. 247 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I think what the media refer to it 248 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 3: as a dead cat. So you throw a dead cat 249 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: on the table and everybody focuses on the dead cat 250 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 3: and not on the issue that we were talking about previously. 251 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 3: And they've been highly successful because everybody now talks about cones, 252 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 3: and cones have become demonized. And yet actually we know 253 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 3: that the risks to both road workers and road users 254 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 3: when roadworks are taking place, it's potentially very high. Yes, 255 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 3: we can always improve, you know, making sure the cones 256 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 3: are removed once the work has finished, you know, looking 257 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 3: at alternative ways of protecting the workplace, but that work 258 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 3: was ongoing two three years ago. It's a big change 259 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 3: that's occurring in that industry, but it also requires some 260 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 3: tough choices, such as close the road rather than put 261 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 3: cones in and out, you know, at nine point thirty 262 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 3: every morning and take them back in again at three 263 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: o'clock every afternoon, which slows the work down. It puts 264 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: everybody at more risk because the process of putting out 265 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 3: and taking in the traffic management is one of the 266 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 3: highest risk times. And actually, by demonizing cones, what we're 267 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 3: seeing is that road workers are being demonized. So one 268 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 3: of my clients is heavily involved in this work and 269 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 3: their staff are getting spat at, they're getting things thrown 270 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 3: at them, they're getting people driving at them deliberately because 271 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 3: they are seen now as being the cause of the 272 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: delays that are occurring whilst the roads are being fit. 273 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 3: And so the level of violence and aggression toward road 274 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 3: workers and the lack of adherence to roadwork signage, whether 275 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 3: it's about speed limits or not driving too fast on 276 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: roads that have just been resurfaced, is actually creating many, 277 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: many more problems rather than actually addressing the ones that 278 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 3: we already working on. 279 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: So, if work Safe is going to focus on critical 280 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: risks and the threat of another Pike River could be 281 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: described as such, what would you like to see change 282 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: to prevent that? Because at the moment, all I'm thinking is, oh, 283 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: these are all going to look nice on a three 284 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 2: poster in the mail room, do you know what I mean? Like, 285 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: what incentive other than trying not to kill your workers 286 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: do those directors do those company owners have at the 287 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 2: moment to implement these changes? 288 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 3: So I think what I would like to see is 289 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 3: that there is much more collaborative work around critical risk. So, 290 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 3: rather than a transactional approach where an individual inspector visits 291 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 3: an individual business to talk about how they're managing a 292 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 3: particular activity, is actually to get the key movers and 293 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 3: shakers in that sector or in relation to that risk 294 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 3: together and actually agree how do we move standards forward 295 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: in a managed way, because one of the challenges, particularly 296 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 3: if we start to reduce the amount of enforcement, is 297 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 3: that it actually makes life harder for the good performance. 298 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 3: So somebody who's actually invested in improving health and safety 299 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 3: is likely to be at a competitive disadvantage against somebody 300 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 3: who hasn't made that investment, but who the regulator is 301 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 3: not actually holding to account. So I think it's in 302 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 3: everybody's best interest to have that clarity. This is what 303 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 3: we're trying to achieve, this is the best way to 304 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 3: achieve it. Here's the guidance that sets out in broad 305 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 3: terms how we go about doing it. And this is 306 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 3: how individually and collectively the various parts of the system 307 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 3: are going to hold you to account. We're actually doing it, 308 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 3: and that, from my experience back in the UK, is 309 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 3: how you get sustainable change because we're all moving in 310 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 3: the same direction together. We're not using health and safety 311 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 3: as something that we compete against each other on. And 312 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 3: actually that process is where the regulator needs to lead 313 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 3: because they are the only ones who at the end 314 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 3: of the day, actually have the power and the authority 315 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 3: to drive change if they can't actually achieve it in 316 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: a more collaborative way. 317 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Mike, my pleasure. That's it for 318 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: this episode of The Front Page. You can read more 319 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzedherld dot 320 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 2: co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan 321 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 2: Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer. 322 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio 323 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 324 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: for another look behind the headlines.