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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talk zed be

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Speaker 1: follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Can you report by Outdoor education charity Outward Bound reveals

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Speaker 2: New Zealanders young people are grampling with nihilism, loss of

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Speaker 2: personal agency in stark isolation. Joining us now is the

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Speaker 2: CEO of Outward Bounds, Melindy McLain, and she's on the phone.

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Speaker 2: Very good afternoon to you.

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Speaker 3: Good afternoon, team, How are we doing?

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Speaker 1: Very good?

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Speaker 4: Thanks for talking us to talking to us today and

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Speaker 4: now A lot of people are texting through saying the

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Speaker 4: world is terrible, which is disappointing from them. But how

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Speaker 4: do you distinguish between healthy realism about the state of

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Speaker 4: the world and this nihilism that you talk about in

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Speaker 4: young people?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the thing that we found really confronting

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Speaker 3: in the report was not just that young people feel

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Speaker 3: like the world is getting worse, is declining, and also

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Speaker 3: something worse has ever been, but over a quarter of

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Speaker 3: them don't feel like they have any power to change

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Speaker 3: the outcome. So it's sort of that doomrism of it's

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Speaker 3: almost a fatalistic response to the world of it's dust

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Speaker 3: and there's not much I can do about it, or

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Speaker 3: there's nothing I can do about it. So that combination is,

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Speaker 3: you know, reflects a real lack of agency that we

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Speaker 3: think is pretty confronting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because the normal thing I'm thinking about When I

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Speaker 4: was young, all I wanted to do is get out

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Speaker 4: there and change the world. So what do you think

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Speaker 4: that Why do you think this is the case that

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Speaker 4: people are going against that natural it's my time to

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Speaker 4: make a difference. Let's go since the.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And historically, when you've actually looked at research around

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Speaker 3: young people compared with older generations, young people have always

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Speaker 3: skewed more optimistic. You know, that the world is my oyster,

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Speaker 3: and that that is starting to change, and not just

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Speaker 3: our report, but in other reports where we can draw

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Speaker 3: some conclusion. So in our research, we see that this

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Speaker 3: sort of nihilistic approach is higher, almost twice as high

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Speaker 3: in young people who spend more than four hours a

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Speaker 3: day online. But you know, as they're spending more time online,

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Speaker 3: they're feeling like they have less agency.

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Speaker 4: The same culture again, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, And then there's also a gender divide, so

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Speaker 3: young women actually are significantly more pessimistic than young men

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Speaker 3: in our data, about the state of the world. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's a few different fit factors in there.

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Speaker 2: It is a fascinating finding. What do you think that

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Speaker 2: is that women, young women are more pessimistic and men,

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Speaker 2: it appears, are more lonelier. Is that, you know, because

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Speaker 2: of the content they are arguably being fed on these

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Speaker 2: online platforms.

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Speaker 3: You could draw back conclusion. I think women are more

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Speaker 3: socialized to notice danger from a young age is sort

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Speaker 3: of socialized. They have a heightened awareness around danger, and

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Speaker 3: there's a we know that women have a heightened awareness

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Speaker 3: things like gender based violent and equality, et cetera. And

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Speaker 3: also young women today compared with women from older generations.

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Speaker 3: I think of my mum, I feel like there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of progress or even like they're going backwards, whereas

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Speaker 3: some of their older female generations felt like they were

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Speaker 3: part of the movement and there was progress. So potentially

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Speaker 3: some of that has to do with the gender divide,

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Speaker 3: But and with with the young men in the loneliness stance,

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Speaker 3: it's it's sort of a different it's a different problem there.

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Speaker 3: But our reports is one in four young men quarter

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Speaker 3: of young men don't have any close friends, So so

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Speaker 3: that's that's that's a and there's a lot you can

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Speaker 3: say there around what's going on for the young men.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's always been kids that have struggled

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Speaker 4: to find friends. I mean, this is going to sound

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Speaker 4: like an oxy moron, but I had a friend who

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Speaker 4: didn't have any friends to make an effort to work

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Speaker 4: well because I noticed he didn't have friends high school.

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Speaker 4: So I made a real big effort to be a

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Speaker 4: friend with with some but it didn't quite work out.

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Speaker 4: It was it was odd, he didn't seem to have

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Speaker 4: the ability to even though he wanted to to make

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Speaker 4: it work. It was it was an interesting, interesting situation,

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Speaker 4: ironically as last name was love but anyway, so there's

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Speaker 4: always been that. But as twenty five percent are much

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Speaker 4: higher statistic than it used to be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, twenty focus is high not having any close friends.

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Speaker 3: It's it's triple what the young woman, so, you know,

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Speaker 3: nearly nearly triple what young women say in that space. Wow.

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Speaker 3: And I think that it contributes to a lot of

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Speaker 3: what people are talking about at the moment around young

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Speaker 3: men feeling lonely and isolated. There is a bit of

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Speaker 3: a focus on, you know what one of the dark

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Speaker 3: spaces that young men get pulled into into the endite

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Speaker 3: and that you know, having close friends in a community

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Speaker 3: and connection, we know is a really protective factor against that.

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Speaker 3: So you know, there are these overlaps between spent online

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Speaker 3: feeling the world, you know, how the world is looking,

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Speaker 3: and it's a sense of loneliness and isolation. They're pretty interlinked. Now.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that we're proud of at Outwards

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Speaker 3: Bound is we are a really neutral space of non

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Speaker 3: judgment for young people of all shaped sizes and genders

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Speaker 3: to come and just learn about who they are and

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Speaker 3: sort of try out who they are in the real

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Speaker 3: world in an offline environment. And we think for a

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Speaker 3: lot of this that solutions like that are really important

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Speaker 3: around how we build agency and our young people.

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Speaker 4: Yes, because I've never heard of a situation where someone's

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Speaker 4: taken their kid on Outward Bound and not come back

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Speaker 4: and just raved about what it's done for their child

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Speaker 4: and what it's done for them and their relationship with

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Speaker 4: their child, all those kind of things. But what evidence

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Speaker 4: is there out there that outdoor challenges and know produced

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Speaker 4: lasting change for these kids psychologically.

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Speaker 3: Well, we've got this report that we've done is the

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Speaker 3: first time we've done external research was non outwards dound

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Speaker 3: young people, so we just went we wanted to understand

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Speaker 3: YOUWN people in New Zealand. But we've done a lot

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Speaker 3: of research around our own students and the impact and

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Speaker 3: outcomes that they experience, and that is at a immediately

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Speaker 3: after course, how they we see shifts and things like

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Speaker 3: confidence and resilience, connection to others, to nature, and we've

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Speaker 3: measured that data for for decades and then we've had

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Speaker 3: a long term research project going with Research New Zealand.

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Speaker 3: It actually looks at a later date around how that

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Speaker 3: has been carried forward into their lives, into their families

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Speaker 3: and communities. And more recently we've done some what's called

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Speaker 3: social return on investment measurements which looks at every dollar

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Speaker 3: spent on and outward down course what can you expect

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Speaker 3: is being returned to society as a social benefit done

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Speaker 3: with outdown globally and it has a one to nine

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Speaker 3: dollar return, which is really high. Every dollar cent you

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Speaker 3: get the sort of nine dollars of social benefits and

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Speaker 3: that's because a whole lot of things. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: productivity and lower health care costs both mental physical healthcare costs,

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Speaker 3: and all of these things that are built into that model,

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Speaker 3: but it's pretty compelling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, have you noticed a change it out would bound

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Speaker 2: with the kids that you are getting into the program

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Speaker 2: over the last few years that we here constantly in

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Speaker 2: the media and there is a lot of truths obviously

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Speaker 2: that these issues are popping up, anxiety, social isolation, nihilism

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Speaker 2: of course in your report. Have you noticed that with

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Speaker 2: kids that you've been getting into the program over the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And that is why we decided to do this research,

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Speaker 3: was we were seeing some of it. We see thousands

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Speaker 3: of young people come through our program every year and

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Speaker 3: starting to see some of these shifts and the way

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Speaker 3: that young people are experiencing the world and sort of

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Speaker 3: disengagement and that sense of helplessness which is just so heartbreaking. Also,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of optimistic and energized young people makingations here.

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Speaker 3: But that was what triggered this report, was you know,

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Speaker 3: we see a lot of data about depression, anxiety, this

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Speaker 3: is mental health statistics, but not a lot of trying

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Speaker 3: to look into actually what it feels like to be

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Speaker 3: a young citizen and instead of what's behind that, what

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Speaker 3: does that feel like to kind of be in this

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Speaker 3: cloud and so that was what drove this. And also

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Speaker 3: we're aware that by the time you get turned out

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Speaker 3: of downforce as a young person, you already have that

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Speaker 3: a little bit of a sense of hope and taking action.

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Speaker 3: And we're getting a really small subset of the broader population,

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Speaker 3: and so we wanted to understand actually broadly, what's happening

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Speaker 3: out there in our young people.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, because you've got parents that are trying to

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Speaker 4: challenge their kids to do something right, and is that

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Speaker 4: part of the problem is to parents need to take

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Speaker 4: some blame, if blames right word, Because if kids feel

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Speaker 4: like they have no agency, is that because their agency

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Speaker 4: is being taken off them by you know the things

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Speaker 4: we hear about, you know, driving your kids to school,

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Speaker 4: not letting them go and do their own things, and

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Speaker 4: the anxiety of their parents ending up with their kids

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Speaker 4: being brought up by digital vices whatever, and not having

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Speaker 4: that feeling that they can do stuff, the exact kind

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Speaker 4: of stuff that would ban gives them that confidence that

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Speaker 4: they can actually do something if they try.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I mean we sort of talk about

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Speaker 3: connection infrastructure, right, so you know, young young men aren't

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Speaker 3: having no close friends because they're just they just stuck

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Speaker 3: at making friends. You know, there's a whole lot of

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Speaker 3: things that contribute to that being such a big statistic,

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Speaker 3: and it kind of goes across the board of it's multifacets.

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Speaker 3: Their parents have a role to play that, there's societal norms,

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Speaker 3: there's social media. There's a huge part of this. And

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Speaker 3: we know that young people in New Zealand are spending

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Speaker 3: I think it's an average of forty two hours a

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Speaker 3: week online on devices. That's more than a full time

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Speaker 3: job on wine. You know, it pushes everything else out.

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Speaker 3: It pushes out time outside times solving problems, you know,

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Speaker 3: resolving conflict with friends in the real world. And so

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Speaker 3: I guess what we would say it out with Bund

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Speaker 3: is that we don't need to reinvent the wheel to

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Speaker 3: respond to this sort of sense of zomerism and lack

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Speaker 3: of agency, but recommitting to some of these approaches that

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Speaker 3: we know work. So we know our doown has been

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Speaker 3: around for sixty three years, we know that we have

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Speaker 3: these amazing outcomes. Now I'm I'm on a Losangelist. I

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Speaker 3: don't think it's going to solve everything. I do believe

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Speaker 3: that New Zealand would look fundamentally different if every young

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Speaker 3: New Zealand that we on an out of downforce, think

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Speaker 3: it's a really different society.

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Speaker 4: So that's not possible. We're talking to Linda McLean, our

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Speaker 4: CEO of outward Bound, but say this is just an example.

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Speaker 4: A couple of days ago, I was playing backgard cricket

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Speaker 4: with my son, like in the driveway, bolu into which other.

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Speaker 4: They hadn't done it for a long time since he

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Speaker 4: was a kid, and I was coaching him and I said,

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Speaker 4: oh boy, this is fun when I'm not having to

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Speaker 4: tell you how to play. You know, I'm not coaching you.

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Speaker 4: It's just fun, right, And he said, yeah, yeah, you

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Speaker 4: used to be a bit of a punish but he

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Speaker 4: and then he goes, but you know what, three of

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Speaker 4: my best friends were on my cricket teams when I

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Speaker 4: was younger, you know, So you know, outward Bound is amazing,

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Speaker 4: but there is a lot to be said just for sport, right,

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Speaker 4: just making kids being involved in teams, getting out meeting

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Speaker 4: people even if they're not going to even if they're

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Speaker 4: not amazing at it, there is a there is that

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Speaker 4: connection and that shared challenge part of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So those learnings that I was sort of saying

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Speaker 3: we carry from Outwidgum that any environment that a young

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Speaker 3: person where they're required to be show responsibility, collaboration, perseverance

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Speaker 3: and connecting with others. You know, any of those environments

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Speaker 3: we can foster that kind of learning from consequence experience

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Speaker 3: or learning. Can be at school, it can be in sport.

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Speaker 3: Like you say, we talk about third spaces, so yeah,

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Speaker 3: not schill, not home, but third spaces and the Internet

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Speaker 3: is not a third space, and so it has you know,

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Speaker 3: the Internet has replaced a lot of third spaces that

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Speaker 3: are so important for young people's developments. So I completely

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Speaker 3: agree with you. It's how do you take those lessons

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Speaker 3: around what do we know that is really protective for

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Speaker 3: young people in terms of helping them thrive and helping

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Speaker 3: them feel optimistic about their future, and how do we

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Speaker 3: make sure that that is built into you know, the

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Speaker 3: way they go through life, you know, from teenage years onwards.

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Speaker 2: Melindy, this has been a fantastic chat. Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: It is important and pretty terrifying research as well, but

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Speaker 2: thank you very much for having a chat with us.

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Speaker 1: For more from News Talks b listen live on air

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