1 00:00:06,707 --> 00:00:10,427 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,747 --> 00:00:11,787 Speaker 1: from News Talks EDB. 3 00:00:13,147 --> 00:00:15,347 Speaker 2: Now, I've the Medlo the pipe for pasily O Tossi, 4 00:00:15,507 --> 00:00:18,027 Speaker 2: Tossy lucky to link up for Wallace at tit's a 5 00:00:18,107 --> 00:00:20,587 Speaker 2: Titi taking a meter short of the line. All Black 6 00:00:20,627 --> 00:00:23,667 Speaker 2: swarmn pecking go Ethan the Groat's over. 7 00:00:24,187 --> 00:00:26,387 Speaker 3: Yeah. Probably the best of the All Blacks seven tries 8 00:00:26,467 --> 00:00:29,827 Speaker 3: yesterday with debutants pasily O, Tossi and Wallace s Titi 9 00:00:29,947 --> 00:00:33,067 Speaker 3: combining to set up Ethan de Groot. Three wins in 10 00:00:33,147 --> 00:00:36,107 Speaker 3: three Test matches for Scott Robertson to start his tenure 11 00:00:36,467 --> 00:00:39,307 Speaker 3: as All Blacks coach. Laurie Mains, of course, had that 12 00:00:39,427 --> 00:00:42,827 Speaker 3: job from nineteen ninety two until nineteen ninety five, including 13 00:00:43,067 --> 00:00:46,987 Speaker 3: the nineteen ninety five Rugby World Cup, overseeing fifty wins 14 00:00:47,427 --> 00:00:50,947 Speaker 3: in his sixty two games in charge. He's with us now, Laurie, 15 00:00:50,947 --> 00:00:53,907 Speaker 3: how happy do you think Scott Robertson will be after 16 00:00:53,947 --> 00:00:56,147 Speaker 3: his first three test matches in charge? 17 00:00:58,667 --> 00:01:00,907 Speaker 4: I think of Vice who might be pretty happy, and 18 00:01:01,107 --> 00:01:04,547 Speaker 4: the reason being that the All Blacks lost a solid 19 00:01:04,627 --> 00:01:10,027 Speaker 4: corps of really experienced and talents. Talented players and he's 20 00:01:10,227 --> 00:01:12,507 Speaker 4: really had to start fresh, very much as I did 21 00:01:12,587 --> 00:01:18,187 Speaker 4: when I started. And then to strike England, who were 22 00:01:18,227 --> 00:01:22,187 Speaker 4: really on form and I thought, very very competitive in 23 00:01:22,227 --> 00:01:26,587 Speaker 4: the two test matches and come away with wins was 24 00:01:26,667 --> 00:01:31,427 Speaker 4: really encouraging for him. I could see a very clear 25 00:01:31,507 --> 00:01:34,307 Speaker 4: game plan they were wanting to play, and I could 26 00:01:34,347 --> 00:01:38,467 Speaker 4: see total commitment from all of the players, and that 27 00:01:38,627 --> 00:01:41,307 Speaker 4: team I think can only improve from here. 28 00:01:42,067 --> 00:01:43,667 Speaker 3: Tell us a bit more about the game plan that 29 00:01:43,707 --> 00:01:46,467 Speaker 3: you saw. You can see from watching these matches the 30 00:01:46,507 --> 00:01:51,107 Speaker 3: way Scott Robertson wants the All Blacks to play well. 31 00:01:51,227 --> 00:01:56,627 Speaker 4: What I can see is certain phases and endeavors that 32 00:01:56,707 --> 00:02:01,227 Speaker 4: the teams the team is trying to accomplish, and that 33 00:02:01,347 --> 00:02:06,787 Speaker 4: each player appears to know his role in that. I 34 00:02:06,787 --> 00:02:08,387 Speaker 4: don't want to talk too much about what I think 35 00:02:08,507 --> 00:02:12,147 Speaker 4: is game planning is in case I'm right, but because 36 00:02:12,587 --> 00:02:15,987 Speaker 4: I'm sure he wouldn't want that broadcast around the world. 37 00:02:16,347 --> 00:02:22,027 Speaker 4: But it's very much you know, some of the Crusader 38 00:02:22,907 --> 00:02:28,147 Speaker 4: tactics are involved. And what you also have to remember 39 00:02:28,187 --> 00:02:31,787 Speaker 4: it it's very early days. He probably only had control 40 00:02:31,827 --> 00:02:34,347 Speaker 4: of that team, you know, for a week or two 41 00:02:34,387 --> 00:02:38,787 Speaker 4: before the first test, and it's early days. And I 42 00:02:38,827 --> 00:02:43,667 Speaker 4: think against Fiji over the weekend we saw an enhancement 43 00:02:44,027 --> 00:02:49,107 Speaker 4: of that program. If you bear in mind that Fiji 44 00:02:49,227 --> 00:02:52,947 Speaker 4: have been a pretty competitive international team in the last 45 00:02:53,307 --> 00:02:55,787 Speaker 4: two or three years, and they perform well at the 46 00:02:55,787 --> 00:02:59,427 Speaker 4: World Cup. Well, the All Black shut them down basically 47 00:03:00,507 --> 00:03:03,947 Speaker 4: and then scored you know, forty plus points of their 48 00:03:03,987 --> 00:03:06,467 Speaker 4: own and I thought that, you know, it was a 49 00:03:06,507 --> 00:03:10,067 Speaker 4: sterling effort and there was very good build ups to 50 00:03:10,147 --> 00:03:11,387 Speaker 4: a number of those tries. 51 00:03:12,587 --> 00:03:15,187 Speaker 3: He talked about the way that the team wants to 52 00:03:15,187 --> 00:03:18,307 Speaker 3: play and apart from winning all three Test matches, which 53 00:03:18,307 --> 00:03:21,187 Speaker 3: I'm sure as a metric that they talk about or 54 00:03:21,227 --> 00:03:24,627 Speaker 3: don't talk about, what other measures Laurie would would Scott 55 00:03:24,707 --> 00:03:27,987 Speaker 3: Robertson and his coaching stuff be using to gauge success 56 00:03:28,387 --> 00:03:31,107 Speaker 3: or progress or both across these three matches. 57 00:03:33,507 --> 00:03:37,787 Speaker 4: Well, in particular, I think against England, he would be 58 00:03:37,867 --> 00:03:40,667 Speaker 4: looking at all of the new players that he brought 59 00:03:40,667 --> 00:03:45,347 Speaker 4: into the squad to see how they measured up in 60 00:03:45,387 --> 00:03:48,027 Speaker 4: his game plan, the instructions that he had given them 61 00:03:48,067 --> 00:03:51,547 Speaker 4: to play. Because England were very competitive, they were strong 62 00:03:51,587 --> 00:03:56,147 Speaker 4: defensively and they were it was music, you know for 63 00:03:56,227 --> 00:04:00,307 Speaker 4: me to watch that and see two real Test matches 64 00:04:00,907 --> 00:04:03,987 Speaker 4: which we don't often see these days. We do when 65 00:04:04,027 --> 00:04:07,187 Speaker 4: we play South Africa and so on, but they were 66 00:04:07,227 --> 00:04:11,227 Speaker 4: two real test matches and I think Scott Robinson would 67 00:04:11,227 --> 00:04:14,907 Speaker 4: have got an awful lot of learning out of that 68 00:04:15,227 --> 00:04:20,827 Speaker 4: about his combinations, for example, front rows, locks, inside backs, 69 00:04:20,867 --> 00:04:24,987 Speaker 4: outside backs. He would have got very good measures from that. 70 00:04:25,427 --> 00:04:29,147 Speaker 4: And individual players who were right up against it, and 71 00:04:29,347 --> 00:04:32,867 Speaker 4: they were if they fronted in those two test matches, 72 00:04:33,307 --> 00:04:37,627 Speaker 4: they can only get very much better as time goes on. 73 00:04:38,267 --> 00:04:39,867 Speaker 3: I want to talk about being a new All Blacks 74 00:04:39,907 --> 00:04:43,427 Speaker 3: coach and back to nineteen ninety two. In your first 75 00:04:43,867 --> 00:04:46,187 Speaker 3: first test against the World fifteen, you gave daboos to 76 00:04:46,267 --> 00:04:49,547 Speaker 3: Jamie Joseph and Adam Pennay. You also picked Paul Henderson, 77 00:04:49,587 --> 00:04:52,707 Speaker 3: John Timu, Greg Cooper, all of who you'd coached at Otago. 78 00:04:53,307 --> 00:04:56,107 Speaker 3: How tempting was it early in your All Blacks tenure 79 00:04:56,587 --> 00:04:59,707 Speaker 3: to select players you'd worked with as Otago coach. 80 00:05:01,107 --> 00:05:03,507 Speaker 4: Well, Earl Kerton and I spent a lot of time 81 00:05:04,467 --> 00:05:08,427 Speaker 4: talking about will we should start with the team, and 82 00:05:09,067 --> 00:05:12,387 Speaker 4: we both agreed that nineteen ninety two had to be 83 00:05:12,387 --> 00:05:17,307 Speaker 4: a watershed year. We had to replace, you know, so 84 00:05:17,547 --> 00:05:21,547 Speaker 4: the All Blacks that have been stars and superstars, but 85 00:05:21,667 --> 00:05:24,067 Speaker 4: weren't going to still be there at the next World Cup. 86 00:05:24,587 --> 00:05:27,027 Speaker 4: We felt the sooner we started bringing some of these 87 00:05:27,067 --> 00:05:30,587 Speaker 4: players in, they're better. They're going to be, you know, 88 00:05:30,587 --> 00:05:36,627 Speaker 4: by nineteen ninety five. And I guess it was tempting 89 00:05:36,787 --> 00:05:42,187 Speaker 4: to bring players in that I had coached previously and 90 00:05:42,307 --> 00:05:47,587 Speaker 4: knew what they could achieve. I think most coaches do that, 91 00:05:48,547 --> 00:05:53,707 Speaker 4: and then you can gradually change them or develop them further. 92 00:05:53,707 --> 00:05:59,107 Speaker 4: If they're a success, you can develop them further or 93 00:05:59,427 --> 00:06:03,627 Speaker 4: replace them with other players as is necessary. But those 94 00:06:03,667 --> 00:06:05,827 Speaker 4: first the first two years I think of a World 95 00:06:05,867 --> 00:06:12,067 Speaker 4: Cup side is where a coach and selectors need to 96 00:06:12,107 --> 00:06:17,347 Speaker 4: really get the foundation and the basis of their team established. They, 97 00:06:17,667 --> 00:06:20,067 Speaker 4: you know, based on maybe your ten best players, who 98 00:06:20,107 --> 00:06:24,787 Speaker 4: are automatic choices. Based on them, you know what style 99 00:06:24,867 --> 00:06:28,067 Speaker 4: of rugby you can best play, and then you have 100 00:06:28,227 --> 00:06:31,547 Speaker 4: to you have to bring in players to complement the 101 00:06:31,587 --> 00:06:35,427 Speaker 4: strength of those tens, those ten based players. 102 00:06:36,267 --> 00:06:38,627 Speaker 3: So you were thinking about the nineteen ninety five Rugby 103 00:06:38,627 --> 00:06:41,267 Speaker 3: World Cup pretty much as soon as you took over 104 00:06:41,307 --> 00:06:42,307 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety two. 105 00:06:43,947 --> 00:06:48,587 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, definitely. And look I can remember in my 106 00:06:48,707 --> 00:06:53,867 Speaker 4: interviews with New Zealand rugby that I had said to them, 107 00:06:55,067 --> 00:06:58,507 Speaker 4: you know, there was a number of pretty aged players 108 00:06:58,507 --> 00:07:01,227 Speaker 4: in the all black side and I would be bringing 109 00:07:01,267 --> 00:07:03,667 Speaker 4: in quite a few new players in my first year 110 00:07:04,467 --> 00:07:07,027 Speaker 4: to use it as part of the platform helping and 111 00:07:07,227 --> 00:07:08,427 Speaker 4: they were supportive of that. 112 00:07:10,627 --> 00:07:13,747 Speaker 3: How soon after you bring someone into the all blacks environments, 113 00:07:14,227 --> 00:07:17,747 Speaker 3: are you able to predict or tell if they'll make 114 00:07:17,787 --> 00:07:18,507 Speaker 3: it as an all black? 115 00:07:21,187 --> 00:07:26,667 Speaker 4: Well, when players come in like Will Jordan, for example, 116 00:07:26,827 --> 00:07:29,827 Speaker 4: you know straight away that he's going to go on 117 00:07:29,987 --> 00:07:33,907 Speaker 4: and be a great player. Other players are a little 118 00:07:33,947 --> 00:07:38,067 Speaker 4: bit more tented of starting. I'll use an example Jamie Joseph. 119 00:07:38,627 --> 00:07:43,147 Speaker 4: He was a tough, hard player and he was one 120 00:07:43,187 --> 00:07:46,667 Speaker 4: that just needed to learn what tess rugby was about. 121 00:07:47,187 --> 00:07:49,547 Speaker 4: And he did and he went on, you know, to 122 00:07:49,587 --> 00:07:51,067 Speaker 4: become a great player. 123 00:07:53,027 --> 00:07:55,787 Speaker 3: I guess I'm asking the question because I mean, three 124 00:07:55,867 --> 00:07:57,827 Speaker 3: years seems like a long time, doesn't it. But if 125 00:07:57,867 --> 00:08:00,387 Speaker 3: you're planning right from the start, I just wonder how 126 00:08:00,867 --> 00:08:03,147 Speaker 3: how you know when somebody isn't going to be up 127 00:08:03,147 --> 00:08:05,307 Speaker 3: to it? How you you know? You try someone out, 128 00:08:05,307 --> 00:08:07,187 Speaker 3: you think to yourself, you know what, this guy probably 129 00:08:07,227 --> 00:08:09,147 Speaker 3: isn't going to be there at the World Cup. Is 130 00:08:09,507 --> 00:08:12,267 Speaker 3: it just is it kind to be cruel if you 131 00:08:12,347 --> 00:08:14,747 Speaker 3: know what I mean and say, sorry, mate, this isn't 132 00:08:15,187 --> 00:08:16,107 Speaker 3: this isn't what we're after. 133 00:08:18,227 --> 00:08:21,507 Speaker 4: Well, it is the last thing I'm going to do 134 00:08:21,587 --> 00:08:25,987 Speaker 4: is embarrassed players or anything like that. But we discarded 135 00:08:27,507 --> 00:08:30,507 Speaker 4: two or three after the first year and after the 136 00:08:30,547 --> 00:08:34,747 Speaker 4: second year the same. We tried players out and just 137 00:08:34,787 --> 00:08:38,467 Speaker 4: to see how they would measure against the top players. 138 00:08:38,587 --> 00:08:40,747 Speaker 4: If you remember in nineteen ninety two we went over 139 00:08:40,787 --> 00:08:45,027 Speaker 4: and played the world champions Australia and we only won 140 00:08:45,107 --> 00:08:48,187 Speaker 4: one Test out of three, but we were done out 141 00:08:48,227 --> 00:08:50,307 Speaker 4: of the second Test. We should have had it as well. 142 00:08:50,427 --> 00:08:57,547 Speaker 4: And they were all very very close encounters, so you 143 00:08:57,707 --> 00:09:01,867 Speaker 4: can look, you know, you can see straight away when 144 00:09:01,907 --> 00:09:06,467 Speaker 4: a player stands up. And if we just go back 145 00:09:06,467 --> 00:09:12,827 Speaker 4: a little bit, the boy Roy Guard from Wellington from 146 00:09:12,867 --> 00:09:16,587 Speaker 4: the Hurricanes, he's injured at the moment. First two or 147 00:09:16,587 --> 00:09:19,827 Speaker 4: three games I saw him play, I said, right, he's 148 00:09:19,827 --> 00:09:21,987 Speaker 4: going to replace Aaron Smith. That boy. He is an 149 00:09:22,027 --> 00:09:29,107 Speaker 4: outstanding player. And some players stand out like that. And 150 00:09:29,187 --> 00:09:32,067 Speaker 4: of course the other great delight I got out of 151 00:09:32,067 --> 00:09:36,587 Speaker 4: the second Test against England and again last night was 152 00:09:36,627 --> 00:09:39,027 Speaker 4: to see Boden Barrett back at his best, I mean 153 00:09:40,107 --> 00:09:44,587 Speaker 4: his mercial, brilliant best, and that's the best he's played 154 00:09:44,587 --> 00:09:49,347 Speaker 4: for quite some time. And so clearly Scott Robinson or 155 00:09:49,507 --> 00:09:55,347 Speaker 4: his fellow coaches have let him do what he does 156 00:09:56,387 --> 00:10:01,547 Speaker 4: does naturally, and that is play spontaneous rugby. And I 157 00:10:01,587 --> 00:10:04,667 Speaker 4: guess at fullback he's also a great first five eight, 158 00:10:06,827 --> 00:10:09,147 Speaker 4: like he was World Player of the Year for two 159 00:10:09,227 --> 00:10:13,387 Speaker 4: years Morow as a first five eight and then he 160 00:10:13,507 --> 00:10:16,347 Speaker 4: was taken out of that position. But he is also 161 00:10:16,547 --> 00:10:19,947 Speaker 4: a mercurial fullback. And I don't care where he plays 162 00:10:20,107 --> 00:10:23,827 Speaker 4: first five eight or fullback. He just has to be 163 00:10:23,907 --> 00:10:24,507 Speaker 4: in the team. 164 00:10:25,667 --> 00:10:27,747 Speaker 3: How long did it take you to feel at home 165 00:10:28,027 --> 00:10:28,987 Speaker 3: as All Blacks coach? 166 00:10:32,587 --> 00:10:36,347 Speaker 4: I don't know, you know. I think ninety five was 167 00:10:36,387 --> 00:10:41,227 Speaker 4: the first year. It was interesting. We tried to develop 168 00:10:41,507 --> 00:10:47,787 Speaker 4: tactics that were new in international rugby, and I think 169 00:10:48,267 --> 00:10:51,387 Speaker 4: I think that is well known by the rugby historians 170 00:10:51,667 --> 00:10:57,507 Speaker 4: that we introduced a new style of test rugby and 171 00:10:57,187 --> 00:11:01,707 Speaker 4: then we had to select players to achieve that. I'll 172 00:11:01,787 --> 00:11:05,067 Speaker 4: just use one example. I think it was ninety three. 173 00:11:05,227 --> 00:11:10,987 Speaker 4: We played Australia after having like running into a brick 174 00:11:11,027 --> 00:11:15,467 Speaker 4: wall with their defense around rucks and malls, you know, 175 00:11:15,547 --> 00:11:17,547 Speaker 4: one off runners and this sort of thing, which were 176 00:11:17,947 --> 00:11:22,347 Speaker 4: flavor of the day at that time early and I said, well, 177 00:11:22,387 --> 00:11:25,107 Speaker 4: we've got to break that up. Why don't we try 178 00:11:25,507 --> 00:11:28,707 Speaker 4: a pick and go right through the middle. And we 179 00:11:28,827 --> 00:11:31,987 Speaker 4: ended up that day scoring two of our tries started 180 00:11:32,227 --> 00:11:35,827 Speaker 4: with us getting behind their defense line, getting them gone 181 00:11:35,867 --> 00:11:40,667 Speaker 4: backwards because we opened up rucks and malls, picked and 182 00:11:40,747 --> 00:11:44,307 Speaker 4: went straight through the middle, and then that became you know, 183 00:11:45,027 --> 00:11:47,267 Speaker 4: but then we put that away. We said, right, that 184 00:11:47,347 --> 00:11:51,187 Speaker 4: has worked better than we expected it to after such 185 00:11:51,227 --> 00:11:56,507 Speaker 4: short introduction to the team, So let's put that aside 186 00:11:57,187 --> 00:12:00,387 Speaker 4: until worked up yere. Otherwise everybody would be doing it 187 00:12:00,387 --> 00:12:03,467 Speaker 4: by the time we get there. We actually shelved it 188 00:12:03,627 --> 00:12:05,427 Speaker 4: for two years. 189 00:12:06,467 --> 00:12:09,787 Speaker 3: Fascinating chatting rugby with you, Laurie. So just to finish, 190 00:12:09,827 --> 00:12:13,707 Speaker 3: you feel optimistic about the start of Razor's reign as 191 00:12:13,707 --> 00:12:14,427 Speaker 3: All Blacks. 192 00:12:14,227 --> 00:12:18,427 Speaker 4: Coach, Well, yes I do. And there's two reasons. What 193 00:12:18,627 --> 00:12:21,027 Speaker 4: he achieved with the Crusaders. I don't care how good 194 00:12:21,027 --> 00:12:23,907 Speaker 4: a players they are, you know where they got their 195 00:12:23,907 --> 00:12:27,547 Speaker 4: players from doesn't matter. To win that championship seven times 196 00:12:27,547 --> 00:12:33,707 Speaker 4: in a row is simply sensational. That makes me know 197 00:12:34,027 --> 00:12:36,187 Speaker 4: that he's going to get this All Black team performing 198 00:12:36,227 --> 00:12:40,227 Speaker 4: to its best. And what I saw, they had to 199 00:12:40,267 --> 00:12:43,627 Speaker 4: fight like hell to win both of the tests against England, 200 00:12:44,427 --> 00:12:49,867 Speaker 4: and that just showed me that those players were totally 201 00:12:49,867 --> 00:12:52,907 Speaker 4: committed to the team. And that's a first achievement for 202 00:12:52,947 --> 00:12:55,427 Speaker 4: a coach is to get his players totally committed to 203 00:12:55,467 --> 00:13:00,227 Speaker 4: the team and to the game plan. And each time 204 00:13:00,307 --> 00:13:04,627 Speaker 4: they've played, but you know, you can see more about 205 00:13:04,627 --> 00:13:08,147 Speaker 4: what they're trying to achieve. That first Test against England 206 00:13:08,147 --> 00:13:11,027 Speaker 4: would have been one of the hardest matches to plan. 207 00:13:12,347 --> 00:13:15,627 Speaker 4: I think many of those All Blacks will have faced. 208 00:13:16,067 --> 00:13:21,347 Speaker 4: England were good and you know they defensively, they were 209 00:13:21,467 --> 00:13:25,547 Speaker 4: very aggressive and very strong. And then second Test, once 210 00:13:25,787 --> 00:13:28,467 Speaker 4: especially when Boden came on, it started to open up 211 00:13:28,867 --> 00:13:32,667 Speaker 4: and he created opportunities and then we saw more of 212 00:13:32,707 --> 00:13:36,467 Speaker 4: that sort of play against Fiji. There were some beautifully 213 00:13:36,467 --> 00:13:41,547 Speaker 4: constructed ties in the match against Fiji. So I'm incredibly 214 00:13:42,147 --> 00:13:45,107 Speaker 4: optimistic about where this team is going to go. The 215 00:13:45,107 --> 00:13:46,867 Speaker 4: best I felt for a long time. 216 00:13:47,667 --> 00:13:51,307 Speaker 3: Good man, Yeah, great to chant us always, mate, Thanks 217 00:13:51,307 --> 00:13:52,507 Speaker 3: for taking the time this afternoon. 218 00:13:53,187 --> 00:13:55,027 Speaker 4: Okay, by now all the best. 219 00:13:55,107 --> 00:13:58,987 Speaker 3: Laurie Mains, former All Blacks coach were some really interesting thoughts. 220 00:13:59,427 --> 00:14:02,587 Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live 221 00:14:02,707 --> 00:14:06,067 Speaker 1: to News Talk ZB weekends from midday, or follow the 222 00:14:06,067 --> 00:14:07,627 Speaker 1: pontodcast on iHeartRadio