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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks be follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Exciting a new project backed by Sir Peter Jackson, working

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Speaker 2: alongside US biotech firm Colossal, also Canterbury Museum and Nitohu.

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Speaker 2: They are planning to bring back the South Island Giant

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Speaker 2: mhor It's incredibly exciting and we are delighted to be

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Speaker 2: joined by the head of Thylacine Integrated Genomic Restoration Research Lab,

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Speaker 2: Professor Andrew Pascu's on the line now, Professor, Very good

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Speaker 2: afternoon to you.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: Now, how just off the bat, how fun is your job?

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Speaker 4: It must be awesome to be involved in such exciting

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Speaker 4: projects like that, truly.

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Speaker 5: You know, like these are the coolest projects you could

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Speaker 5: ever do. But then the impacts that they have for

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Speaker 5: conservation and restoring lost species to our planet and by diversity,

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Speaker 5: it just you couldn't do anything better.

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Speaker 3: And more meaningful. I think I may be a little biased.

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Speaker 3: I do think it's pretty amazing.

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Speaker 4: Why the more over all the other species you could

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Speaker 4: bring back? Is this the great Sir Peter Jackson influencing

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Speaker 4: you on this one?

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Speaker 3: I mean it is.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's truly an iconic bird of New Zealand,

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Speaker 5: of course, But you know, again, it's one of these

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Speaker 5: species that we've lost due to humans coming into an environment.

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Speaker 5: But these species that were so critically important in maintaining

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Speaker 5: ecosystems which they came from. So you know, moas were vegetarians,

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Speaker 5: but they were great disperses of seed. There's whole species

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Speaker 5: of trees and bushes that don't thrive anymore because we've

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Speaker 5: lost the moa. There's really good reasons, you know why

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Speaker 5: bringing the moa back could help fix a lot of

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Speaker 5: the environmental issues that are happening, as well as learning

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Speaker 5: much much more about bird genetics and how to save

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Speaker 5: so many of the other endangered species in New Zealand

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Speaker 5: as well, that you know, facing a similar fate to

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Speaker 5: the moa, that they're going to go extinct within a

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Speaker 5: certain number of years.

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Speaker 4: Well, when you say that it will help the ecosystem,

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Speaker 4: I guess does that mean eventually the plan would be

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Speaker 4: to have enough of them to let them out into

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Speaker 4: the wild.

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Speaker 5: Well, initially they're going to be in very large, you know,

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Speaker 5: natural parts of the landscape that they would roam. But

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Speaker 5: if they were to be able to, you know, cause

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Speaker 5: really great habitat restoration. Absolutely, and that's certainly what we're

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Speaker 5: trying to do with the thylacine project as well. The

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Speaker 5: end goal of bringing back the Tasmanian tiger is that

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Speaker 5: you can put that animal back into the environment where

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Speaker 5: it played such an important role and that helps with

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Speaker 5: all the conservation of the other plant and animal species

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Speaker 5: within that ecosystem.

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Speaker 4: Now bring it back to New Zealand, how close are

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Speaker 4: you to producing the living more? Where will the work

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Speaker 4: be done and what are the key scientific hurdles that

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Speaker 4: are still ahead of you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there's a lot of work to be

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Speaker 5: done obviously still and it will be done through New Zealand.

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Speaker 5: We're doing some work here in Melbourne in Australia, and

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Speaker 5: then obviously a lot of it in Colossal Biosciences in Dallas.

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Speaker 5: But really, you know, understanding much more about bird genomics

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Speaker 5: is the first key. We're still trying to figure out

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Speaker 5: how we can do good gene editing in.

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Speaker 3: Birds and make birds that you know, we.

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Speaker 5: Can manipulate their DNA that has lots of really important

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Speaker 5: outcomes for bird conservation.

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Speaker 3: So we need to develop that technology.

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Speaker 5: But then we've got some fairly decent DNA, it looks

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Speaker 5: like from some of the MOA bone specimens. Really sequencing

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Speaker 5: the entire MOA genome is the first job, but you

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Speaker 5: can learn incredible information about that bird species just by

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Speaker 5: looking at its DNA as well. So there'd be lots

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Speaker 5: of really exciting breakthroughs that happen along the way where

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Speaker 5: we learn more and more about how incredible these species

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Speaker 5: were working all the way through to being able to

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Speaker 5: bring these species back.

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Speaker 2: So, Professor, is it a similar situation You mentioned the

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Speaker 2: Tasmanian tiger and obviously colossal made headlines around the world

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Speaker 2: with the dire wolf, is that the same process or effectively,

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Speaker 2: because it's a bird species, you have to start from

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Speaker 2: from the start.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well we do have to start from the start,

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Speaker 5: but that it is same process. So the way we

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Speaker 5: do it is, once we have the full MOA genome,

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Speaker 5: we to identify what it's closest living relative is. At

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Speaker 5: the moment, the closest living relative looks to be like

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Speaker 5: a chicken sized bird called a tinamou, and they're mostly

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Speaker 5: found in South America and Central America little tinamus, but

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Speaker 5: they're the ones that you would then use as your

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Speaker 5: host if you like, for doing this project. So we

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Speaker 5: still can't you know, create life where there is none.

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Speaker 5: So you have to start with the cells from the

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Speaker 5: closest living relative. You compare their DNA code and you

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Speaker 5: figure out everywhere that they're different, and then you edit

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Speaker 5: those changes into that animal. So you would edit the

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Speaker 5: tinamu cells to contain all of the differences that a

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Speaker 5: moa had, and then at the end of that, you've essentially.

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Speaker 3: Got a moa cell.

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Speaker 5: And then we're working through the process of turning those

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Speaker 5: cells back into a whole living bird. And there's been

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Speaker 5: a lot of you know, real advances made on that

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Speaker 5: front already.

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Speaker 3: At Colossal Biosciences, they.

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Speaker 5: Announced the DODO project a while ago now, and so

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Speaker 5: as part of that DODO one, they've done a huge

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Speaker 5: amount of work from figuring out how to get birds

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Speaker 5: to go undergo genetic engineering, how to produce these genetically

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Speaker 5: engineered birds, and then actually get them into an egg

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Speaker 5: to then actually form a viable animal at the end

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Speaker 5: of it as well. So it's really good being able

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Speaker 5: to jump onto the progress it's already been made on

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Speaker 5: the MAA progress of project. And yeah, like I said,

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Speaker 5: also all the conservation outcomes that we can do for

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Speaker 5: endangered bird species with that technology right.

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Speaker 3: Now is really fantastic as well.

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Speaker 4: So you're starting with potentially starting with the small bird,

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Speaker 4: but you're going for the big more, right, You're going

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Speaker 4: for the biggest one. You can the biggest species the

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Speaker 4: giants South Island three point eight meter high more.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right on that.

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Speaker 3: I mean that was the turkey size moa. Yeah right,

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Speaker 3: But I don't feel like that.

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Speaker 5: Will capture people's imaginations quite the same.

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Speaker 4: What do you said on this controversy around the moa,

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Speaker 4: Because you know, when they first found the bones, they

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Speaker 4: put it with an upright head, didn't they to try

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Speaker 4: and get it as tall tall as possible? But it's

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Speaker 4: more likely that the head would sit like an emu's

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Speaker 4: head with that sort of curve.

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Speaker 5: Here. This is funny, right, This is the most controversially

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Speaker 5: debated aspect of when we talk about moabiology in our.

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Speaker 3: Group in Genely, that we talk about all the time.

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Speaker 5: And you know, people are either avid they held their

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Speaker 5: heads up right or they probably had to be in

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Speaker 5: front of them.

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Speaker 3: But I just say, way till we extinct it, and

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Speaker 3: let's see what it does.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, that'll be really that question will be answered.

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Speaker 3: That's great to know exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as a layman a professor, eight years, that seems

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Speaker 2: like an incredibly short amount of time. Has that been

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Speaker 2: optimistic or is that actually doable?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Well, I think, you know, we're looking at a similar

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Speaker 5: timeframe for the tastemaking Tiger projects. I think because there's

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Speaker 5: already been a lot of development of technologies with the

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Speaker 5: other DODO extinction.

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Speaker 3: Projects we've actually so.

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Speaker 5: We're quite a way along that pathway of figuring out

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Speaker 5: what it is we need to do and how we

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Speaker 5: need to do it, you know, and these projects ten

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Speaker 5: years ago were unthinkable. The technology has come so far

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Speaker 5: in the last ten years that today the extinction is,

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Speaker 5: you know, a thing that will happen.

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Speaker 3: It's just a matter of exactly what those timeframes are.

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Speaker 5: But it's you know, even more feasible that we have

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Speaker 5: big technological advancements in the next five or so years

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Speaker 5: that make that process even quicker. So I do think

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Speaker 5: eight years is a very reasonable time frame for us

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Speaker 5: to have engineered our MOA cells.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, watch this space.

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Speaker 5: Hopefully we have a MOA coming to a place near you.

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Speaker 3: Very soon.

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Speaker 4: Now, what do you say to people who say that

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Speaker 4: what you're doing is not de extinctifying the MOA, but

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Speaker 4: creating a sort of a MOA proxy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I think there are definitely different ways of

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Speaker 5: going about de extinction, but these sorts of projects of

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Speaker 5: the Tasmanian tiger for the MOA, we're actually looking at

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Speaker 5: making every single difference in that animal's GenAm so really

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Speaker 5: engineering that animal back into existence, and at that point

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Speaker 5: really is no longer a proxy for that species, It

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Speaker 5: really is that species. Like with the Tasmanian tiger, for example,

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Speaker 5: the animal that we end up creating will be as

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Speaker 5: similar as any Tasmanian tiger was to any other Tasmanian tiger.

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Speaker 3: In that population, there'll be ninety nine.

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Speaker 5: Point nine nine percent identical, which is about the same

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Speaker 5: as you and I would have through our DNA for example.

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Speaker 5: So at that point, you know you have really recreated

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Speaker 5: that species so they.

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Speaker 4: Could be breeding. You can, you could make a breeding

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Speaker 4: population of more.

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Speaker 5: That would absolutely be the what we would be trying

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Speaker 5: to do here, because yeah, it's very expensive to do

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Speaker 5: these as you can imagine, takes them very long time.

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Speaker 5: So if they can't breed, we're in real trab We

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Speaker 5: certainly can't do it if we time we need one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now, Professor, there's there's been a few people in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand, academics and whatnot who have come out this

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Speaker 2: morning on this news and fear to say me and

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Speaker 2: Mett do not agree with what Love said. But how

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Speaker 2: do you respond to those critics who argue the extinction

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Speaker 2: diverts resources from saving engaged species that are still around today.

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Speaker 5: I think now we've done enough work in this field

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Speaker 5: to show that that just is not correct at all.

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Speaker 5: Like we've brought more money to conservation biology than has

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Speaker 5: ever been in this arena before. And the thing I

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Speaker 5: love about it the most is this money hasn't come

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Speaker 5: from any of those conservation foundations.

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Speaker 3: They're still doing their work.

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Speaker 5: And we still need them to because you know, we

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Speaker 5: can recreate species. I can bring back a Tasmanian tiger,

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Speaker 5: but if the habitat's gone, if there isn't that classic

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Speaker 5: conservation work still happening, there's still nowhere to put that animal,

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Speaker 5: So we need everybody working together. This has done wonders

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Speaker 5: for conservation and really increases the way that we can

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Speaker 5: address conservation from a genetic perspectives like, and that's something

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Speaker 5: we absolutely just have to embrace. Today.

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Speaker 3: We've changed the world around our animals.

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Speaker 5: So quickly that now we need to do this genetic

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Speaker 5: intervention to bring back species that have been lost, but

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Speaker 5: also for ones that are still here to help them

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Speaker 5: face climate change or invasive pest species. This is the

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Speaker 5: only way that we can save species now is by

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Speaker 5: doing some of this work. So it's a completely different

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Speaker 5: pot of money, and it's brought more good to conservations

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Speaker 5: than we could ever have done without it.

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Speaker 4: Speaking of pots of money, Sir Peter Jackson a great

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Speaker 4: New Zealander and a fantastic nerd Are you expecting her

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Speaker 4: to be pisting around the lab looking over your shoulder

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Speaker 4: and asking questions?

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Speaker 5: I have had the absolute extreme pleasure of being able

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Speaker 5: to spend hours and hours with Peter through this project,

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Speaker 5: and he just loves the science, honestly, Like it's incredible

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Speaker 5: to be able to talk to him about, you know,

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Speaker 5: what our DNA editing strategy is or whatever, and he

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Speaker 5: just he just sits there and listens and asks the

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Speaker 5: most incredible questions about it. He's just such an intelligent

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Speaker 5: human and really passionate conservationist.

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Speaker 3: Really cares about New Zealand birds in particular.

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Speaker 5: You know, he's just he's such a great person to

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Speaker 5: have involved in the project.

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Speaker 3: I have all the time in the world for Peter.

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Speaker 4: Now in the world of movies, remaining in the world

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Speaker 4: of movies, the question that has to be asked with

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Speaker 4: a Jurassic Park currently topping the box office, Yeah, will

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Speaker 4: we ever get the dinosaurs back?

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Speaker 3: Look, I'm a huge Jurassic Park fan.

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Speaker 5: In fact, my office at work is full of Jurassic

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Speaker 5: Park paraphernalia. But the spoiler is there's no DNA left

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Speaker 5: in any of the dinosaur specimens. DNA only lasts a

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Speaker 5: few million years, so sixty million years back, it just

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Speaker 5: isn't there.

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Speaker 3: So I hate to burst people's buttle on this because

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Speaker 3: you know, we.

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Speaker 5: All we all love dinosaurs, but it's just not feasible.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately.

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Speaker 4: Well, as a fan of Jurassic Park, you will have

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Speaker 4: asked yourself the doctor Ian Malcolm question, chicking that you're

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Speaker 4: not preoccupied with whether you could and have asked a

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Speaker 4: question whether you should.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I get that one all the time, but

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Speaker 5: I always go you know, as scientist, all we ever

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Speaker 5: ask is the weather you should like the weather you

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Speaker 5: could we passed that ages ago. I'm like, this should

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Speaker 5: is what we you know, really pain over all the time.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is a really good conversation around

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Speaker 3: the extinction technology. I think we should.

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Speaker 5: Definitely do it, but we need to set limits around

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Speaker 5: how far back we want to bring species back, when

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Speaker 5: and where we want to use this technology. And I

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Speaker 5: think there are clear conservation reasons for using this.

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Speaker 3: The moa is a really great example of that.

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Speaker 5: But then the other species where we go, actually we

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Speaker 5: don't want to do that to those ones. So I

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Speaker 5: welcome those conversations around the thoughtful use of this technology

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Speaker 5: to really better our planet.

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Speaker 2: Professor, you have been fantastic to check too. We can

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Speaker 2: hear the enthusiasm and excitement and your voice. You've excited

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Speaker 2: most of New Zealand, I've got to say with this project,

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Speaker 2: So thanks very much with us pleasure that is hit

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Speaker 2: of Thilocene Integrated Genomic Restoration Research LAIR Professor Andrew Pesk,

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Speaker 2: How great was the enthusiasm.

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Speaker 3: I love this text.

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Speaker 4: We will have moers walking the earth again before we

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Speaker 4: get a second crossing of the Auckland Harbor.

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Speaker 1: For more from News Talks at b listen live on

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Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever

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