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Speaker 1: Heller, Duplessy alan So. More than four hundred Christian organizations

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Speaker 1: have written an open letter to the government asking the

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Speaker 1: government to stop the Treaty Principal's Bell going to Select Committee.

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Speaker 1: These include the most senior leaders of the Catholic, the Anglican,

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Speaker 1: the Methodist, the Salvation Army and the Vineyard denominations. Taranaki

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Speaker 1: Cathedral's very Reverend Jay Ruka was one of the signatories.

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Speaker 1: He's with us now, hey, j hell, how are you

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Speaker 1: you good? Thank you mate? Why do you want to

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Speaker 1: stop it going to Select committee?

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Speaker 2: Because it's it has a false premise, it has the

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Speaker 2: wrong premise. So the premise of it is off. So

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Speaker 2: why would you take something that's off to a robust discussion.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean off ideas go to Select Committee all

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Speaker 1: the time and then we have a chat about it

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Speaker 1: and then we decide if we want to do it

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Speaker 1: or not.

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Speaker 2: Maybe, but not over foundational documents. So I just think

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Speaker 2: it's unwise that such a proposal should be put forth

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Speaker 2: in that forum. By all means, let's talk about tidity

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Speaker 2: or white tonguey and even at that forum, but let's

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Speaker 2: compare apples to apples.

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Speaker 1: So what's off about it.

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Speaker 2: The idea that, as far as what has been presented

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Speaker 2: to the public of altern on his Zane already, is

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Speaker 2: that you can take notions of what the treaty says

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Speaker 2: and what it meant by tea or una tonguel, and

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Speaker 2: then all of a sudden say that that idea is

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Speaker 2: for everybody. That's just not what the contract says. So

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Speaker 2: why would you try and reframe and reinterpret a contract

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Speaker 2: that doesn't actually say what it says.

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Speaker 1: That's what do you mean by that.

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Speaker 2: Article two of Titi says that as ungle teta tonguel,

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Speaker 2: we retain our teen or ungle teta tonge right as

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Speaker 2: as leaders of Hapu and ewi. So what that is

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Speaker 2: saying is that the document is saying that Maori leaders,

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Speaker 2: like not all leaders are male in this document, retain

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Speaker 2: the leadership and the chieftainship over their lands, their treasures,

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Speaker 2: their tong et cetera, et cetera. So then to go

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Speaker 2: ahead and then say that, oh, everybody has the manner

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Speaker 2: over their land and their treasures and their tongue. While

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Speaker 2: that is true, that's also not what tatidity says. The

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Speaker 2: titidity that does not say that everyone has this tatidity

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Speaker 2: says that of Nahabu Naiwi have have this. So it

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Speaker 2: would be like saying that, oh, I signed a contract

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Speaker 2: for a house, and how on as an owner of

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Speaker 2: a house, the owners of house should be a human

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Speaker 2: right for everybody. Therefore, as the Crown, we think that

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Speaker 2: everyone should now own your house.

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Speaker 1: Well, is it not the same as saying, okayj you've

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Speaker 1: bought a house and you've signed it, and we now

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Speaker 1: recognize your property right in your house, and we also

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Speaker 1: recognize everybody else's right in their own houses.

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Speaker 2: What's the problem that's and that's that that's a true statement,

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Speaker 2: but that's not what the contract that says. Okay, but

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Speaker 2: what so, how do you how do you how do

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Speaker 2: you how do you honor? Essentially, how do you get

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Speaker 2: the contract?

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Speaker 1: Explain to me what's wrong with with what he says

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Speaker 1: he's going to do in it? Right, So he says

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Speaker 1: an article two, he will recognize that the New Zealand

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Speaker 1: Government recognizes the New Zealand Government will recognize the of

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Speaker 1: the HPOO and the EWI over the TNA right. So

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Speaker 1: exactly what you want, but also everybody else, everybody else's

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Speaker 1: property rights will be recognized.

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Speaker 2: To what's the problem with that. But that's a given

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Speaker 2: that happens. So then what's the problem is that the

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Speaker 2: t of Ewi and Hapu Maori has not been recognized.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just don't understand. I mean I can sort of.

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Speaker 1: It feels a little bit like what you're arguing is

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Speaker 1: that it has to be left in its truest form,

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Speaker 1: just recognizing the very very specific things in the treaty. Yes,

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Speaker 1: then is that what you're arguing.

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Speaker 2: That's what a contract says.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, then explain to me, j how we have

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Speaker 1: spent the last fifty years developing principles which are not

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Speaker 1: literal interpretations of the treaty, but us developing on the treaty.

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Speaker 1: If what you want is a totally literal interpretation of

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Speaker 1: the treaty, then you have to be arguing with me

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Speaker 1: you want to get rid of all the principles you

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Speaker 1: cool with that you want.

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Speaker 2: To get rid of. Why would you want to get

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Speaker 2: rid of.

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Speaker 1: Because if you're arguing, which you are with me, that

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Speaker 1: we have to look at a literal interpretation of the

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Speaker 1: treaty and nothing else on top of that, then you

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Speaker 1: are arguing with me that all principles have to be

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Speaker 1: removed as well. Because they're not literal interpretations.

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Speaker 2: They are are they caught the kind of r ex

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Speaker 2: No they like.

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Speaker 1: Actually they well because for example, one of the big

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Speaker 1: principles out of the treaty is that is the principle

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Speaker 1: of partnership. Yeah, go through the treaty, find me the

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Speaker 1: word partnership.

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Speaker 2: Well that's a silly that's a silly argument because who's

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Speaker 2: the contract between?

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, But this is what I'm trying to.

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Speaker 2: Say, contract. Who's who's the contract between? It's between between

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Speaker 2: the Queen of it's between the Queen of England, and

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Speaker 2: it's between that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, cool, So you accept you accept that the principles

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Speaker 1: are okay.

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Speaker 2: As as what the white thing you tribe your new because.

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Speaker 1: All David was doing theme is some more principles. So

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Speaker 1: what's the problem with it? If you think principles are cool,

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Speaker 1: then why can't we have more principles and have these

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Speaker 1: ones too?

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Speaker 2: We can't. We you know what, we should have more principles,

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Speaker 2: but those principles should be based on what is being

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Speaker 2: said in the context of when it was.

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Speaker 1: None of the principles. That means none of the principles

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Speaker 1: are based on what's said in there right, So what

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Speaker 1: we want we want Jay's principles, but not the other

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Speaker 1: principles that Jay doesn't like.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, those principles that very very very smart people, many

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Speaker 2: many lawyers, over many many decades have looked at those

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Speaker 2: principles are in there because they are in the context.

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Speaker 2: They are in the context of like an agreement, like

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you're I don't know if you

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Speaker 2: have a marriage partner. But it's it's like you you

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Speaker 2: know people or people who are married, most of them

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Speaker 2: have wedding rings. The marriage is not the wedding ring.

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Speaker 2: The marriage is that the ring is a symbol of

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Speaker 2: the relationship and of the partnership. Right, So in essence

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Speaker 2: tatidity and what it says, you've got to look at

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Speaker 2: the whole entire context of how this document came about,

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Speaker 2: why did it come about, and looking at from that,

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Speaker 2: what was the British government doing at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, listen, so do you do you you chill with

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Speaker 1: David Seymour's amendments to Article two in cabinet today.

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Speaker 2: I didn't hear what they I didn't see what they were.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, okay, well maybe that'll change you mine. Thank you, Jay,

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time. That is the very Reverend Jayrika,

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Speaker 1: the Dean of Taranaki's Cathedrals.

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Speaker 2: For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to

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