1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: The meantime back here of the government is developing a 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: pay gap calculator for companies to help bridge gender inequality. 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: So it's going to replace Labour's mandatory pay gap reporting 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: Pledge the gap currently sits by the WAD to eight 5 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: point six percent. Delvin Stewart is co founder of Mind 6 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: the Gap and is with us. Delwin, very good morning 7 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: to you. 8 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 2: Good morning. 9 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: Make we ever going to crack. 10 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 2: This or not? 11 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Or do you think I'll be bringing you in twenty 12 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: five years time will still be debating it. 13 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: It's wholly possible that we can crack it, and it 14 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: was great to see the government take some action yesterday 15 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: as a start in the right direction. 16 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: If you had to choose one reportage, mandatory or not 17 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: or a calculator, what's the better trick? 18 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: Mandatory reporting will make the most significant difference. We've seen 19 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: in many countries overseas, and we know that the voluntary 20 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 2: reporting is starting to shift the dials, so mandatory reporting 21 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: will make a difference. 22 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: So is that are you basically shaming business into hiring 23 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: people they may or may not normally hire. 24 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: I know that most businesses don't set out to pay 25 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: people unfairly like no they just don't see what's happening 26 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 2: in their pay on until they use a tool to 27 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 2: do the measurement, and when they do, they want to 28 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 2: fix it. 29 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: Okay, so how is this calculator going to work? You're 30 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: just going to tap in and go, I've got x 31 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: number of women, X number of men the average pays 32 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: this that, and then bring there's a number. 33 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't I haven't seen the detail on that yet. 34 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: But it's actually not a complicated calculation. No, it's just 35 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 2: that the causes of that number that you get are 36 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 2: different and different businesses. 37 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: Would you be I mean, would most people running their 38 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: business be cognizant if you rolled up to them and 39 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: said do you have a gender pay gap? And they 40 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: would know roughly what it is, yes or no, and 41 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: the number behind it. 42 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: No, not most businesses, So they. 43 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: Won't say, well, even if they do, with all the 44 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: debate we've had, they couldn't tell you what their situation is. 45 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 2: No, not for many businesses. We have an enormous amount 46 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: of small businesses in this country and they wouldn't know that. 47 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 2: What we've captured so far as the early adopters, the leaders, 48 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: and they are showing the way and we really need them. 49 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: But to bring the rest of the business community along, 50 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: we need a reporting regime that is the same for everyone. 51 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: To drill it down into a business, what are you 52 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: advocating them for. Do you pay a woman more simply 53 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: because she's a woman, or do you promote women into 54 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: jobs that are higher paying that they may not have 55 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: applied to, or you do both of those things. 56 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: You do both of those things depending on what you 57 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: find in your business. So this is one of our 58 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: biggest companies in New Zealand found that when they promoted 59 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: people into a particular pay band that women are always 60 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: promoted into the bottom and men were promoted into the 61 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: top of the band. So that was just a basic 62 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: bias that they could correct. 63 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: So that's an unconscious bias, you would argue. 64 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: An unconscious bias. Yeah, but they wouldn't have seen that 65 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: if they didn't do the work. 66 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: Okay, because part of the problem ible we've seen is 67 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: that it was basically it goes back to that famous 68 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: age care case a number of years ago. That is 69 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: that there are certain jobs that women are attracted to 70 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: or apply to, and they happen to be lower paid 71 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: jobs in general. And how you rectify that's the problem. 72 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: How much of the overall debate is that specifically. 73 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: Most of our pay gap about eighty percent their found 74 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 2: and research is not explainable, and that's whether the bias 75 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: comes and the unconscious bias that norms around things. So 76 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: only about twenty percent of that we can actually say 77 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 2: is your choice of career or your level of education. 78 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: As more women get to the top, does it get 79 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: fixed because the unconscious bias is no longer there. 80 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: Certainly that role model is important, but at the moment 81 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: we've got only fourteen percent of our large companies with 82 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: CEMA CEOs. There's a lot of work to do there. 83 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: Good stuff, del Wan't you have a very good weekend 84 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: and I appreciate your expertise. Delwn Stewart, who's the co 85 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: founder of A Mind the Gap. 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