Speaker 1: Killed it and welcome to Shed Lunch and the short
Speaker 1: bonus episode where we unpack some of the ins and
Speaker 1: outs of Contact Energies proposed takeover of Manua Energy. There's
Speaker 1: lots to digest with this two point three billion dollar deal,
Speaker 1: whether you're an investor in the energy sector or a
Speaker 1: consumer of power or a business hit by recent power hikes.
Speaker 1: To shed some light on why this is a good idea,
Speaker 1: I'm joined by Contact Energy CEO Mike Fuje.
Speaker 2: Investing involves a risk you might lose the money you
Speaker 2: start with. We recommend talking to a licensed financial advisor.
Speaker 2: We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to invest.
Speaker 2: Everything you're about to see and here is current at
Speaker 2: the time of recording.
Speaker 1: Mike, thanks for coming in to see us today. There's
Speaker 1: been a lot of media about this proposed deal two
Speaker 1: point three billion dollars, and it's one of the biggest
Speaker 1: things that's happened to the power industry in quite some time. Today,
Speaker 1: we're going to look at what it means for investors principally,
Speaker 1: First of all, for listeners and viewers who don't know
Speaker 1: too much about Contact and Manowa, can we kind of
Speaker 1: explain for us what assets you have at the moment
Speaker 1: in generation and how that might change if the steal
Speaker 1: were to go through.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, so contact energy.
Speaker 4: Probably what we're best known for in generation assets is
Speaker 4: are geo thermal, and over the last three years we've
Speaker 4: actually invested a lot into building more geothermal with the
Speaker 4: Toharer and talk of three projects.
Speaker 3: In fact, what we've built to date.
Speaker 4: In geo thermal in the last three years is equivalent
Speaker 4: in generation output as a steal.
Speaker 3: And that just give it some perspective.
Speaker 4: And then we have the hydro assets, obviously the iconic
Speaker 4: Clyde and Roxburd dam in the Cluther system, which we'll
Speaker 4: talk about a bit later, but they.
Speaker 3: Were part of the foundation.
Speaker 4: And then with that we have thermal assets Taranaky combined
Speaker 4: cycle plant, the two peakers, and the Foreranaki diesel peaking
Speaker 4: plant over in the Hawks Bay.
Speaker 1: Just on those we're talking oil and gas for those
Speaker 1: gas when you say thermal gas gas.
Speaker 4: Powered apart from Faranaki, which is diesel powered, and that's okay,
Speaker 4: sort of sits to come on in extreme periods of
Speaker 4: periods of extreme shortage, okay, Right.
Speaker 1: So the idea would be that you would phase those
Speaker 1: out is that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So we're on a plan to phase out thermal
Speaker 4: generation and decarbonize our portfolio, and we've been very clear
Speaker 4: about that. So geothermal is as good, if not better
Speaker 4: than nuclear power. It has asset utilizations of between ninety
Speaker 4: five and ninety eight percent. It just runs twenty four
Speaker 4: by seven.
Speaker 3: All year round.
Speaker 4: And then we have our hydro schemes, which are incredibly valuable,
Speaker 4: but they are spring and summer weighted, and just as
Speaker 4: you get to the end of summer, your water starts
Speaker 4: to come down. It's a long summer and you start
Speaker 4: to get a bit short, which is why we had
Speaker 4: the thermal fleet to kick in at that point and
Speaker 4: provide fuel, which is also why we have the gas
Speaker 4: storage facility. Now we want to decarbonize, so you can't
Speaker 4: decarbonize unless you have a solution to that conundrum.
Speaker 3: And that's what this deal is about.
Speaker 4: Because Manua has about one point eight to tell what
Speaker 4: hours of hydro, but that's winter weighted rather than spring summer.
Speaker 4: So as our water with our existing assets starts to
Speaker 4: run out, you can look forward to winter with the
Speaker 4: Manoa assets and their water starts to come in.
Speaker 3: And there's a very nice hedge in there.
Speaker 1: So is it that hydro is the answer to the
Speaker 1: decarbonization more so than other renewables wind, solar batteries. You're
Speaker 1: in those in development stage anyway.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the answer is always I've been very strong
Speaker 4: on this, it's all of the above. So obviously wind
Speaker 4: and solar are the lowest costs, but they're intimittent. And
Speaker 4: yet when they're intimittent, when the sun doesn't shine and
Speaker 4: the wind doesn't blow, you have to have a way
Speaker 4: of firming it.
Speaker 3: So, and you mean by firming, so when.
Speaker 4: There's no electricity, you firm it up so that when
Speaker 4: we turn on the lights at home, they actually do
Speaker 4: go on. So the showers are hot and the bear
Speaker 4: is cold. That's the important part, it sure is.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 4: You can get a with different locations of wind and solar.
Speaker 4: You can get what we call a forming, a statistical forming,
Speaker 4: because they know we'll be there. But actually that's not
Speaker 4: good enough for the ordinary consumer. It has to be firmed.
Speaker 4: And so that's where battery. So we're building the battery
Speaker 4: at Glenbrook, but it's also where hydro has an.
Speaker 3: Incredibly important part to play.
Speaker 4: And being able to firm in those periods of scarcity
Speaker 4: when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining,
Speaker 4: but also to cover the peaks, so you've got the
Speaker 4: geo thermal which is always there. And then as the
Speaker 4: demand goes up and down, you have your wind and solar,
Speaker 4: but for the gaps you need hydro and batteries.
Speaker 1: What about low late levels and the like though, because
Speaker 1: it's not always the best time for hydro, is it?
Speaker 3: No? So, but low late levels.
Speaker 4: What happened specifically this year is July was very low
Speaker 4: rainfall and it also had low wind, and so there
Speaker 4: are a couple of things going on. What you saw
Speaker 4: was extreme prices for a period of about two weeks,
Speaker 4: which was actually Foraranaki being dispatched into the market diesel.
Speaker 4: But what you saw when there was a lot of
Speaker 4: rain that came in is that prices went straight down
Speaker 4: to almost to zero. And that's just supply and demand.
Speaker 4: So the answer to that is actually, as I said, it's.
Speaker 3: A number of solutions.
Speaker 4: One, we need to build more wind and solar and
Speaker 4: more geo thermal, so you raise the base and then
Speaker 4: when you have that period of shortage it's much less dramatic.
Speaker 4: You can dispatch maybe intimate and gas, which we've got,
Speaker 4: we're retaining. You put it in just for those very
Speaker 4: short periods. You have batteries and you have hydro, which
Speaker 4: is weighted more towards winter.
Speaker 1: How long do you think you will have gas? So
Speaker 1: I think twenty thirty five was what you were hoping.
Speaker 4: We've committed to decarbon net zero by twenty thirty five.
Speaker 4: I think gas has a part to play for covering
Speaker 4: those dry year periods. For so even with all the
Speaker 4: out to about twenty forty, I think gas still has
Speaker 4: a role to play. You can turn it on, you
Speaker 4: can store it. It's got much lower carbon intensity than coal,
Speaker 4: and so for that once in five year, once in
Speaker 4: ten year occurrence, it's going to be important as a backup. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: things like hydro, extended operation of our hydro assets as
Speaker 4: they stand today, investment in different options around storage, around batteries,
Speaker 4: investment in more solar, more wind. The other thing that
Speaker 4: really was brought into play and during the shortage was
Speaker 4: demand response. So both the smelter and another other large
Speaker 4: commercial actually turned down their power demand by over two
Speaker 4: hundred megawatts, which is bigger than Tohara. So they turned
Speaker 4: down the Ty New Zealand Steel, a number of dairy companies.
Speaker 4: So all it's never one solution. It's always a combination.
Speaker 4: And that's part of what even in mass market retail
Speaker 4: we've been talking about. The answer to decarbonization is not
Speaker 4: just building generation. It's also the way we respond to
Speaker 4: periods of scarcity. And if we can delay our shower,
Speaker 4: if industrials can come off for a short period and
Speaker 4: get paid for it, then that's all part of the solution.
Speaker 1: It's always a bit of a dance, isn't it sounds
Speaker 1: like you forever balancing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's energy. I mean that's why I came into
Speaker 4: energy many years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 3: It is a challenge.
Speaker 4: It is a challenge. It is fun, it is stimulating.
Speaker 4: These challenges never go away. Sometimes there are periods of
Speaker 4: oversupply and sometimes there are periods of undersupply, and responding
Speaker 4: to those challenges is what gets us up in the
Speaker 4: morning and gets us coming to work.
Speaker 2: Mike.
Speaker 1: If we look at this proposed deal in terms of
Speaker 1: the money with shareholders, I think five ninety five per
Speaker 1: share is what they will end up with. You've got
Speaker 1: a payment which is combined shares, debt, and obviously cash
Speaker 1: in the end, what are they actually getting.
Speaker 4: They're getting they're getting a cash consideration of about a
Speaker 4: dollar sixteen to share, and they're getting they're getting shares
Speaker 4: issued in Contact Energy, So they continue to participate in
Speaker 4: the energy transition, they continue to participate in the building
Speaker 4: of renewable energy assets, they continue to participate in the
Speaker 4: well they get to participate in mass mark retail, so
Speaker 4: they become they're still very much part of the energy
Speaker 4: sector and the renewable energy sector as an investment option,
Speaker 4: which I think is a great outcome.
Speaker 1: So they'll be eighteen point five percent to your register.
Speaker 4: Total, There'll be eighteen point five percent of our register.
Speaker 4: So obviously their major shareholders, TechEd and Infantil form very
Speaker 4: much part of that, which we think is a great outcome.
Speaker 4: Because one of the things about Contact Energy is that
Speaker 4: we have over seventy thousand investors on our base key
Speaker 4: WE investors. We are a KEYWI company, so NOO approval required,
Speaker 4: and having a cornerstone investor at around ten percent like
Speaker 4: Infantile of Infantol's quality is a great vote of confidence
Speaker 4: in our strategic path as well.
Speaker 1: What about Contact sheeholders, are we going to see some dividend.
Speaker 4: Love there, we have announced the divid and loved we
Speaker 4: announced an increased dividen in the beginning of July, and
Speaker 4: we as we said, as part of this deal, we're
Speaker 4: actually prepared put our money where our mouth is in
Speaker 4: terms of increased of it in twenty six and twenty seven.
Speaker 1: Thinking of them again, when will this steal actually pay? When?
Speaker 1: When will you know the costs all the things that
Speaker 1: go around it. There's also a fair bit of approvals,
Speaker 1: lots of lawyers, fees, regulators, fees, you name it.
Speaker 4: So look, we've announced the deal. We've been working on
Speaker 4: the deal for a considerable period, probably since about December.
Speaker 1: Twenty two, that two years nearly.
Speaker 4: Yes, these things always take time, but the important thing
Speaker 4: is is that we expect the Commerce Commission approval to
Speaker 4: take six to nine months, and then there is the
Speaker 4: Independent Appraises report that goes to shareholders who then vote,
Speaker 4: and then there is a day in court and then
Speaker 4: the deal is done. We expect that the benefits will
Speaker 4: be fully realized within eighteen months to two years of that.
Speaker 4: So we've said, look, Manaua has a normalized debit das say,
Speaker 4: about one forty million a year at the moment, and
Speaker 4: we expect to bring that up to about two twenty million,
Speaker 4: if not more, within a two year period and that's
Speaker 4: when the benefits start really start to flow. There's also
Speaker 4: upside in that in terms of the development options that
Speaker 4: Manoa has, which is fantastic, and in terms of what
Speaker 4: I call the micro optimizations about how we integrate the
Speaker 4: assets together.
Speaker 1: Because they've got twenty five hydro stations small to medium,
Speaker 1: I think most of them. I mean, do you see
Speaker 1: any consolidation there.
Speaker 4: Not on the operation The consolidation or the opportunities are
Speaker 4: at the corporate level where we have duplicate systems. We
Speaker 4: have a duplicate maintenance system with dupilate finance system. And
Speaker 4: where there's duplication at the corporate level, what we do
Speaker 4: see optunity and is the operations are very much clustered
Speaker 4: in areas we very much clustered in areas we already are.
Speaker 4: So for instance, Manoa is very strong in the Bay
Speaker 4: of Plenty, central North Island.
Speaker 3: That's where our heart and soul.
Speaker 4: Yes, Manua has significant assets in the Taranaki.
Speaker 3: We're in the Taranaki.
Speaker 4: Manui has significant assets in the Deep South. We have
Speaker 4: significant assets in the Deep South, so there is opportunity
Speaker 4: for the teams to work together and be integrated together.
Speaker 4: But that isn't about cost savings. That's just about working smarter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And in terms of the development project, so they've
Speaker 1: got at the moment I think around four wind, two
Speaker 1: solar from memory. Will you be keeping.
Speaker 4: Those on absolutely, And that's when you're in development. One
Speaker 4: of the important things that you need to have is
Speaker 4: what I call competition for capital. So what those sites
Speaker 4: will bring is that one of them is already consented.
Speaker 4: I go in the north of the South Island and
Speaker 4: then there are two very advanced development options for wind,
Speaker 4: one in the central North Island and one in the
Speaker 4: lower South Island. And having a development portfolio where the
Speaker 4: teams are working hard to get their project forward, to
Speaker 4: have that competition for capital to get the best return
Speaker 4: for shareholders. And what that means is that you either
Speaker 4: do the best projects first, which means consumers then get
Speaker 4: the lowest cost electricity as soon as possible. If we're
Speaker 4: all operating in different ways and you end up with
Speaker 4: sometimes subeconomic projects going first, and that just ends up
Speaker 4: with a bad outcome for shareholder shareholders and a bad
Speaker 4: outcome for consumers.
Speaker 1: Is there some wind expertise that you're hoping to garner
Speaker 1: from the stealven Absolutely?
Speaker 4: Now, remember we have the relationship with Rawing forties and
Speaker 4: certainly Manua have a natural wind capability already de On
Speaker 4: Campbell their chair is coming on the board now. Dian
Speaker 4: and I have intertwined our careers over many years. Dion
Speaker 4: obviously has some fantastic wind experience from his time with
Speaker 4: TrustPower and then a CEO of TIM and so having
Speaker 4: him on the board with that both energy market and
Speaker 4: development experience and whind will be fantastic.
Speaker 1: Okay, So we could see some interesting things happening with
Speaker 1: wind with contact.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, We're already got some sites, but having these sites
Speaker 4: come in will just add momentum. I talked about bringing
Speaker 4: our future forward faster is very much the theme of
Speaker 4: this deal.
Speaker 1: One thing you did say on our program not so
Speaker 1: long ago, back in February with the half year results,
Speaker 1: was you thought solar was a niche prospect in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Have you changed your mind? No?
Speaker 4: Absolutely, So we have announced obviously the christ at Chairport
Speaker 4: Cofi Park, Sola. The opportunity there is that solar can
Speaker 4: be built quickly. Yeah, solar doesn't get firmed. You need
Speaker 4: something else to firm solar, so it will have always
Speaker 4: a niche.
Speaker 3: It always look at the weather out there today.
Speaker 4: This is Wellington, it's New Zealand. Doesn't have the same
Speaker 4: resource as say Australia or Chile, but it does have
Speaker 4: that niche application. The wonderful thing about solar, remember is
Speaker 4: it's summer weight and one of our major industries, dairy
Speaker 4: is some are weighted in terms of demand. So there
Speaker 4: is again a niche application I think for solar, but
Speaker 4: it won't be providing the same broad base and it
Speaker 4: doesn't go on at night in.
Speaker 1: Terms of what you're paying forty eight percent premium. There's
Speaker 1: also some red flags with Manawa. I would say at
Speaker 1: the moment, just a little while ago they had earnings
Speaker 1: downgrade about twenty five percent. I think there was a
Speaker 1: bad debt with the retailer involved in that. They've got
Speaker 1: some low lake levels they talked about at the time
Speaker 1: when they did their Q one report. What are you
Speaker 1: thinking in terms of actually is it turning stuff around
Speaker 1: or I mean, are the concerns you You've obviously done
Speaker 1: your due dilidence.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, we did extensive due diligence. So the very
Speaker 4: reasons for the earnings downgrade are the very reasons why
Speaker 4: Manu it is better together with us, because that broader
Speaker 4: portfolio has a order resilience. Now, remember when that high
Speaker 4: price period, we did the deal with Method X to
Speaker 4: allow us to burn gas, which immediately stabilized the market
Speaker 4: along with Genesis and brought back a degree of rational prices.
Speaker 4: And Manua being part of our portfolio would mean it
Speaker 4: is not exposed to that extreme type of event. In
Speaker 4: terms of the assets themselves twenty five hydro schemes, the
Speaker 4: important thing is is that people remember eight of those
Speaker 4: are of a reasonable size and they will fit perfectly
Speaker 4: within our portfolio and with the remainder with those Runner
Speaker 4: River small hydros, you've just got to have an appropriate
Speaker 4: maintenance and risk management strategy in place so you're not
Speaker 4: over investing, but you're operating them safely and if you
Speaker 4: have a common sense approach. We've seen that common sense
Speaker 4: approach from Manima as we did our due diligence and
Speaker 4: we have a look where IO fifty five thousand are credited.
Speaker 4: In terms of our asset management. We have a rigorous
Speaker 4: approach to risk and investment and stay in business carepex.
Speaker 4: We don't overspend and we have a strong track record.
Speaker 4: Remember why Raki is over sixty years old and we've
Speaker 4: kept it going for thirty years beyond its design life
Speaker 4: without a process safety incident, been operating it very safely.
Speaker 4: And it's that risk management, that rigorous asset management framework
Speaker 4: that we apply that keeps us all safe.
Speaker 1: You talk about looking at the deal over nearly two years.
Speaker 1: Was it a time when you thought you're going to
Speaker 1: have to do something else in order to get those renewables,
Speaker 1: you know, change the portfolio mats.
Speaker 4: Oh, look, we always have a plan B. We had
Speaker 4: a clearly communicated strategy to the whole of market about
Speaker 4: what we were doing, and this.
Speaker 3: Deal just allows us to excelerate that. We always had
Speaker 3: a plan B.
Speaker 1: Okay, Now investors are not just looking at the dollars
Speaker 1: and cents. They are consumers a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: Some of them are businesses. We've had the Windstone Mills clothes.
Speaker 1: I will say, Mercury, was this not you guys? Does
Speaker 1: that mean with the steal that we will have better competitions?
Speaker 1: What I've heard you saying in recent reports, can you
Speaker 1: explain what you mean there?
Speaker 4: So look, the problem at the moment is that there
Speaker 4: is no problem with the electricity market. There is a
Speaker 4: problem with the upstream gas market. And so in that
Speaker 4: period of scarcity, what you saw is a scarcity of water,
Speaker 4: a scarcity of wind. What's the next dispatch gas? There
Speaker 4: is no gas, you go to diesel. The moment that rainfalls,
Speaker 4: prices came straight back down again. And so what this
Speaker 4: enables it releases just through the combination of portfolios, another
Speaker 4: two to three hundred gig what hours a year, and
Speaker 4: then through the ability to exlerate wind and solar options
Speaker 4: that will bring additional supply to market. And if you've
Speaker 4: got a supply demand and balance like that leading to diesel,
Speaker 4: the only way to solve that is to increase supply,
Speaker 4: to build more power stations. And I think it's important
Speaker 4: that people understand that and look on Winston's look, that
Speaker 4: was tragic when people lose their jobs like that, But
Speaker 4: there are systemic issues in pulp at the moment. Not
Speaker 4: many of us are reading a paper newspaper anymore. And
Speaker 4: so they actually had a reasonable power deal with Mercury,
Speaker 4: which was in line with international prices, and Mercury came
Speaker 4: out very strongly on that. The reality is is that
Speaker 4: pulp economics globally are challenged. And the other thing I'll
Speaker 4: say is that other would processes like og Panpak chose
Speaker 4: early days to hedge and they have a very sharply
Speaker 4: priced PPA with us through the MUKE which we participated in,
Speaker 4: and because they were willing to sign up to a
Speaker 4: ten year deal and support the renewable transition, they're still
Speaker 4: in operation today. Okay, so it's not as clear cut
Speaker 4: as a m it's certainly not quite as clear cut
Speaker 4: as what it was made out.
Speaker 1: The Comments Commission has to approve the steel. You're fairly
Speaker 1: confident that will happen. You talk about more competition, perhaps
Speaker 1: better fixed term contracts for industrial Yes, commercial operators tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit more about that.
Speaker 4: So our advocacy is we wouldn't have got to this
Speaker 4: point if we weren't confident of clearing the Commerce Commission.
Speaker 4: But we have to keep telling our story. Yes, that's
Speaker 4: really important. We think the increased supply, both through the
Speaker 4: deal itself and the additional development, will it further increase
Speaker 4: the downward pressure on prices.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 4: The thing is for large gal industrials, we are passionate
Speaker 4: that the decarbonization of New Zealand should not mean the
Speaker 4: de industrialization. And that's why we particularly as Contact, have
Speaker 4: been putting in the place these long term power supply
Speaker 4: deals at very sharp prices with the smelter with New
Speaker 4: Zealand steel, with Ogpampak, with food stuffs, where counterparties who
Speaker 4: are willing to stand up to the mark and invest
Speaker 4: it there in renewable energy, we're prepared to say, hey,
Speaker 4: here's a project which will benefit from that long term
Speaker 4: ppa and do those long term, reasonably priced power deals.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's going to mean businesses won't be closing?
Speaker 1: As you've said, it's not always, you know, it's clear cut.
Speaker 4: It all depends on how fast we can build that
Speaker 4: new generation. If we get lost in the bureaucracy and complication,
Speaker 4: then those new projects will not get built. If we're
Speaker 4: able to clear away some of the bureaucratic tangle and
Speaker 4: get on with building these new renewable energy projects, prices
Speaker 4: will quite naturally get back to what is a fair
Speaker 4: and reasonable level.
Speaker 1: Do you mean fast? Is it a fast traight legislation
Speaker 1: helping with.
Speaker 3: That, or it's all it's.
Speaker 4: Stable market settings, it's Resource Management Act reform, the fast
Speaker 4: Track reform.
Speaker 3: It is being absolutely its counterparties been.
Speaker 4: Willing to invest or sign up to long term PPAs.
Speaker 4: It's all of the above. For our investors, it's the
Speaker 4: more we can uncomplicate, uncomplicate this whole morass that we're
Speaker 4: in at the moment. If we can make look a
Speaker 4: solar project Kofi Park took will take eighteen months to
Speaker 4: bring online. Preparing for it, even with a very straightforward
Speaker 4: resource consent took over two years. A wind farm takes
Speaker 4: two and a half years to build. The resource consent
Speaker 4: can take five years. At some point, it's more important
Speaker 4: that we focus on the people who are pouring the
Speaker 4: concrete and welding the steel than shuffling the paper. Yes,
Speaker 4: and that's the challenge for us as a nation.
Speaker 1: Where does it put contact? This steal does go ahead.
Speaker 1: In terms of where you are in the market, you'll
Speaker 1: share there are other generation retailers.
Speaker 4: You know, it doesn't change our retail share of market
Speaker 4: because Manor has.
Speaker 1: No No, it doesn't, I mean, I mean with your but.
Speaker 4: In terms of generation, it just puts us on today's
Speaker 4: numbers just ahead of Mercury, but well behind Meridian.
Speaker 3: So number two or three.
Speaker 1: Are market and is that what you're hoping for?
Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's that's good.
Speaker 4: We don't we're not doing the deal just to grow
Speaker 4: for growth sake. We're doing the deal because we think
Speaker 4: it will give great returns to shareholders and that it's
Speaker 4: the right thing to do for the country and that
Speaker 4: decarbonization journey. If you end up second when you were fourth, yeah,
Speaker 4: that's an interesting observation, but that's not why we're doing
Speaker 4: the deal.
Speaker 1: What about the political interference or interest? I mean, have
Speaker 1: you had talks with government about this?
Speaker 4: We keep going very well appraised to what we're doing.
Speaker 4: So obviously we're in constant communication with the Minister of Energy,
Speaker 4: with the Associate Mister of Energy. We communicate regularly with
Speaker 4: the opposition. We make sure that we're taking everyone along
Speaker 4: with us on the journey. Insurance Shane Jones absolutely, Marta Shane.
Speaker 4: I have regular conversations with Shane vet And that's a
Speaker 4: wonderful thing about New Zealand is look, you can disagree,
Speaker 4: but you can do it in a way that is
Speaker 4: respectful and you don't have to cross the road when
Speaker 4: you see them on the streets. That's the wonderful thing
Speaker 4: about New Zealand. It is a village and the important
Speaker 4: thing is we can debate and argue vaciferously, but we
Speaker 4: still respect each other.
Speaker 1: That's great. It's nice to end on that, I think. Mike,
Speaker 1: thanks for coming in today and giving us your insights,
Speaker 1: and thanks to everyone for tuning in. You can watch
Speaker 1: shed Lunch on YouTube or follow us on your favorite
Speaker 1: podcast at Martewa.
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