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Speaker 1: Killed it and welcome to Shed Lunch and the short

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Speaker 1: bonus episode where we unpack some of the ins and

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Speaker 1: outs of Contact Energies proposed takeover of Manua Energy. There's

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Speaker 1: lots to digest with this two point three billion dollar deal,

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Speaker 1: whether you're an investor in the energy sector or a

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Speaker 1: consumer of power or a business hit by recent power hikes.

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Speaker 1: To shed some light on why this is a good idea,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Contact Energy CEO Mike Fuje.

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Speaker 2: Investing involves a risk you might lose the money you

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Speaker 2: start with. We recommend talking to a licensed financial advisor.

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Speaker 2: We also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to invest.

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Speaker 2: Everything you're about to see and here is current at

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Speaker 2: the time of recording.

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Speaker 1: Mike, thanks for coming in to see us today. There's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of media about this proposed deal two

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Speaker 1: point three billion dollars, and it's one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: things that's happened to the power industry in quite some time. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to look at what it means for investors principally,

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Speaker 1: First of all, for listeners and viewers who don't know

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Speaker 1: too much about Contact and Manowa, can we kind of

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Speaker 1: explain for us what assets you have at the moment

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Speaker 1: in generation and how that might change if the steal

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Speaker 1: were to go through.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, so contact energy.

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Speaker 4: Probably what we're best known for in generation assets is

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Speaker 4: are geo thermal, and over the last three years we've

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Speaker 4: actually invested a lot into building more geothermal with the

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Speaker 4: Toharer and talk of three projects.

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Speaker 3: In fact, what we've built to date.

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Speaker 4: In geo thermal in the last three years is equivalent

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Speaker 4: in generation output as a steal.

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Speaker 3: And that just give it some perspective.

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Speaker 4: And then we have the hydro assets, obviously the iconic

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Speaker 4: Clyde and Roxburd dam in the Cluther system, which we'll

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Speaker 4: talk about a bit later, but they.

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Speaker 3: Were part of the foundation.

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Speaker 4: And then with that we have thermal assets Taranaky combined

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Speaker 4: cycle plant, the two peakers, and the Foreranaki diesel peaking

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Speaker 4: plant over in the Hawks Bay.

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Speaker 1: Just on those we're talking oil and gas for those

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Speaker 1: gas when you say thermal gas gas.

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Speaker 4: Powered apart from Faranaki, which is diesel powered, and that's okay,

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Speaker 4: sort of sits to come on in extreme periods of

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Speaker 4: periods of extreme shortage, okay, Right.

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Speaker 1: So the idea would be that you would phase those

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Speaker 1: out is that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So we're on a plan to phase out thermal

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Speaker 4: generation and decarbonize our portfolio, and we've been very clear

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Speaker 4: about that. So geothermal is as good, if not better

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Speaker 4: than nuclear power. It has asset utilizations of between ninety

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Speaker 4: five and ninety eight percent. It just runs twenty four

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Speaker 4: by seven.

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Speaker 3: All year round.

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Speaker 4: And then we have our hydro schemes, which are incredibly valuable,

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Speaker 4: but they are spring and summer weighted, and just as

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Speaker 4: you get to the end of summer, your water starts

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Speaker 4: to come down. It's a long summer and you start

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Speaker 4: to get a bit short, which is why we had

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Speaker 4: the thermal fleet to kick in at that point and

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Speaker 4: provide fuel, which is also why we have the gas

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Speaker 4: storage facility. Now we want to decarbonize, so you can't

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Speaker 4: decarbonize unless you have a solution to that conundrum.

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Speaker 3: And that's what this deal is about.

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Speaker 4: Because Manua has about one point eight to tell what

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Speaker 4: hours of hydro, but that's winter weighted rather than spring summer.

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Speaker 4: So as our water with our existing assets starts to

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Speaker 4: run out, you can look forward to winter with the

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Speaker 4: Manoa assets and their water starts to come in.

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Speaker 3: And there's a very nice hedge in there.

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Speaker 1: So is it that hydro is the answer to the

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Speaker 1: decarbonization more so than other renewables wind, solar batteries. You're

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Speaker 1: in those in development stage anyway.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the answer is always I've been very strong

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Speaker 4: on this, it's all of the above. So obviously wind

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Speaker 4: and solar are the lowest costs, but they're intimittent. And

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Speaker 4: yet when they're intimittent, when the sun doesn't shine and

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Speaker 4: the wind doesn't blow, you have to have a way

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Speaker 4: of firming it.

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Speaker 3: So, and you mean by firming, so when.

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Speaker 4: There's no electricity, you firm it up so that when

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Speaker 4: we turn on the lights at home, they actually do

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Speaker 4: go on. So the showers are hot and the bear

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Speaker 4: is cold. That's the important part, it sure is.

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Speaker 3: And so.

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Speaker 4: You can get a with different locations of wind and solar.

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Speaker 4: You can get what we call a forming, a statistical forming,

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Speaker 4: because they know we'll be there. But actually that's not

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Speaker 4: good enough for the ordinary consumer. It has to be firmed.

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Speaker 4: And so that's where battery. So we're building the battery

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Speaker 4: at Glenbrook, but it's also where hydro has an.

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Speaker 3: Incredibly important part to play.

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Speaker 4: And being able to firm in those periods of scarcity

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Speaker 4: when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining,

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Speaker 4: but also to cover the peaks, so you've got the

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Speaker 4: geo thermal which is always there. And then as the

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Speaker 4: demand goes up and down, you have your wind and solar,

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Speaker 4: but for the gaps you need hydro and batteries.

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Speaker 1: What about low late levels and the like though, because

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Speaker 1: it's not always the best time for hydro, is it?

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Speaker 3: No? So, but low late levels.

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Speaker 4: What happened specifically this year is July was very low

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Speaker 4: rainfall and it also had low wind, and so there

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Speaker 4: are a couple of things going on. What you saw

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Speaker 4: was extreme prices for a period of about two weeks,

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Speaker 4: which was actually Foraranaki being dispatched into the market diesel.

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Speaker 4: But what you saw when there was a lot of

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Speaker 4: rain that came in is that prices went straight down

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Speaker 4: to almost to zero. And that's just supply and demand.

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Speaker 4: So the answer to that is actually, as I said, it's.

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Speaker 3: A number of solutions.

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Speaker 4: One, we need to build more wind and solar and

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Speaker 4: more geo thermal, so you raise the base and then

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Speaker 4: when you have that period of shortage it's much less dramatic.

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Speaker 4: You can dispatch maybe intimate and gas, which we've got,

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Speaker 4: we're retaining. You put it in just for those very

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Speaker 4: short periods. You have batteries and you have hydro, which

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Speaker 4: is weighted more towards winter.

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Speaker 1: How long do you think you will have gas? So

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Speaker 1: I think twenty thirty five was what you were hoping.

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Speaker 4: We've committed to decarbon net zero by twenty thirty five.

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Speaker 4: I think gas has a part to play for covering

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Speaker 4: those dry year periods. For so even with all the

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Speaker 4: out to about twenty forty, I think gas still has

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Speaker 4: a role to play. You can turn it on, you

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Speaker 4: can store it. It's got much lower carbon intensity than coal,

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Speaker 4: and so for that once in five year, once in

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Speaker 4: ten year occurrence, it's going to be important as a backup. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 4: things like hydro, extended operation of our hydro assets as

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Speaker 4: they stand today, investment in different options around storage, around batteries,

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Speaker 4: investment in more solar, more wind. The other thing that

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Speaker 4: really was brought into play and during the shortage was

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Speaker 4: demand response. So both the smelter and another other large

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Speaker 4: commercial actually turned down their power demand by over two

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Speaker 4: hundred megawatts, which is bigger than Tohara. So they turned

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Speaker 4: down the Ty New Zealand Steel, a number of dairy companies.

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Speaker 4: So all it's never one solution. It's always a combination.

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Speaker 4: And that's part of what even in mass market retail

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Speaker 4: we've been talking about. The answer to decarbonization is not

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Speaker 4: just building generation. It's also the way we respond to

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Speaker 4: periods of scarcity. And if we can delay our shower,

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Speaker 4: if industrials can come off for a short period and

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Speaker 4: get paid for it, then that's all part of the solution.

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Speaker 1: It's always a bit of a dance, isn't it sounds

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Speaker 1: like you forever balancing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's energy. I mean that's why I came into

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Speaker 4: energy many years ago. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It is a challenge.

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Speaker 4: It is a challenge. It is fun, it is stimulating.

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Speaker 4: These challenges never go away. Sometimes there are periods of

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Speaker 4: oversupply and sometimes there are periods of undersupply, and responding

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Speaker 4: to those challenges is what gets us up in the

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Speaker 4: morning and gets us coming to work.

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Speaker 2: Mike.

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Speaker 1: If we look at this proposed deal in terms of

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Speaker 1: the money with shareholders, I think five ninety five per

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Speaker 1: share is what they will end up with. You've got

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Speaker 1: a payment which is combined shares, debt, and obviously cash

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Speaker 1: in the end, what are they actually getting.

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Speaker 4: They're getting they're getting a cash consideration of about a

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Speaker 4: dollar sixteen to share, and they're getting they're getting shares

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Speaker 4: issued in Contact Energy, So they continue to participate in

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Speaker 4: the energy transition, they continue to participate in the building

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Speaker 4: of renewable energy assets, they continue to participate in the

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Speaker 4: well they get to participate in mass mark retail, so

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Speaker 4: they become they're still very much part of the energy

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Speaker 4: sector and the renewable energy sector as an investment option,

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Speaker 4: which I think is a great outcome.

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Speaker 1: So they'll be eighteen point five percent to your register.

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Speaker 4: Total, There'll be eighteen point five percent of our register.

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Speaker 4: So obviously their major shareholders, TechEd and Infantil form very

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Speaker 4: much part of that, which we think is a great outcome.

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Speaker 4: Because one of the things about Contact Energy is that

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Speaker 4: we have over seventy thousand investors on our base key

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Speaker 4: WE investors. We are a KEYWI company, so NOO approval required,

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Speaker 4: and having a cornerstone investor at around ten percent like

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Speaker 4: Infantile of Infantol's quality is a great vote of confidence

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Speaker 4: in our strategic path as well.

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Speaker 1: What about Contact sheeholders, are we going to see some dividend.

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Speaker 4: Love there, we have announced the divid and loved we

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Speaker 4: announced an increased dividen in the beginning of July, and

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Speaker 4: we as we said, as part of this deal, we're

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Speaker 4: actually prepared put our money where our mouth is in

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Speaker 4: terms of increased of it in twenty six and twenty seven.

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Speaker 1: Thinking of them again, when will this steal actually pay? When?

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Speaker 1: When will you know the costs all the things that

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Speaker 1: go around it. There's also a fair bit of approvals,

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Speaker 1: lots of lawyers, fees, regulators, fees, you name it.

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Speaker 4: So look, we've announced the deal. We've been working on

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Speaker 4: the deal for a considerable period, probably since about December.

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Speaker 1: Twenty two, that two years nearly.

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Speaker 4: Yes, these things always take time, but the important thing

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Speaker 4: is is that we expect the Commerce Commission approval to

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Speaker 4: take six to nine months, and then there is the

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Speaker 4: Independent Appraises report that goes to shareholders who then vote,

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Speaker 4: and then there is a day in court and then

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Speaker 4: the deal is done. We expect that the benefits will

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Speaker 4: be fully realized within eighteen months to two years of that.

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Speaker 4: So we've said, look, Manaua has a normalized debit das say,

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Speaker 4: about one forty million a year at the moment, and

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Speaker 4: we expect to bring that up to about two twenty million,

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Speaker 4: if not more, within a two year period and that's

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Speaker 4: when the benefits start really start to flow. There's also

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Speaker 4: upside in that in terms of the development options that

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Speaker 4: Manoa has, which is fantastic, and in terms of what

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Speaker 4: I call the micro optimizations about how we integrate the

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Speaker 4: assets together.

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Speaker 1: Because they've got twenty five hydro stations small to medium,

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Speaker 1: I think most of them. I mean, do you see

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Speaker 1: any consolidation there.

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Speaker 4: Not on the operation The consolidation or the opportunities are

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Speaker 4: at the corporate level where we have duplicate systems. We

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Speaker 4: have a duplicate maintenance system with dupilate finance system. And

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Speaker 4: where there's duplication at the corporate level, what we do

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Speaker 4: see optunity and is the operations are very much clustered

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Speaker 4: in areas we very much clustered in areas we already are.

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Speaker 4: So for instance, Manoa is very strong in the Bay

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Speaker 4: of Plenty, central North Island.

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Speaker 3: That's where our heart and soul.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Manua has significant assets in the Taranaki.

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Speaker 3: We're in the Taranaki.

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Speaker 4: Manui has significant assets in the Deep South. We have

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Speaker 4: significant assets in the Deep South, so there is opportunity

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Speaker 4: for the teams to work together and be integrated together.

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Speaker 4: But that isn't about cost savings. That's just about working smarter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And in terms of the development project, so they've

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Speaker 1: got at the moment I think around four wind, two

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Speaker 1: solar from memory. Will you be keeping.

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Speaker 4: Those on absolutely, And that's when you're in development. One

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Speaker 4: of the important things that you need to have is

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Speaker 4: what I call competition for capital. So what those sites

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Speaker 4: will bring is that one of them is already consented.

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Speaker 4: I go in the north of the South Island and

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Speaker 4: then there are two very advanced development options for wind,

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Speaker 4: one in the central North Island and one in the

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Speaker 4: lower South Island. And having a development portfolio where the

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Speaker 4: teams are working hard to get their project forward, to

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Speaker 4: have that competition for capital to get the best return

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Speaker 4: for shareholders. And what that means is that you either

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Speaker 4: do the best projects first, which means consumers then get

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Speaker 4: the lowest cost electricity as soon as possible. If we're

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Speaker 4: all operating in different ways and you end up with

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Speaker 4: sometimes subeconomic projects going first, and that just ends up

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Speaker 4: with a bad outcome for shareholder shareholders and a bad

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Speaker 4: outcome for consumers.

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Speaker 1: Is there some wind expertise that you're hoping to garner

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Speaker 1: from the stealven Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: Now, remember we have the relationship with Rawing forties and

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Speaker 4: certainly Manua have a natural wind capability already de On

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Speaker 4: Campbell their chair is coming on the board now. Dian

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Speaker 4: and I have intertwined our careers over many years. Dion

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Speaker 4: obviously has some fantastic wind experience from his time with

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Speaker 4: TrustPower and then a CEO of TIM and so having

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Speaker 4: him on the board with that both energy market and

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Speaker 4: development experience and whind will be fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So we could see some interesting things happening with

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Speaker 1: wind with contact.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, We're already got some sites, but having these sites

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Speaker 4: come in will just add momentum. I talked about bringing

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Speaker 4: our future forward faster is very much the theme of

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Speaker 4: this deal.

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Speaker 1: One thing you did say on our program not so

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Speaker 1: long ago, back in February with the half year results,

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Speaker 1: was you thought solar was a niche prospect in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Have you changed your mind? No?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, So we have announced obviously the christ at Chairport

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Speaker 4: Cofi Park, Sola. The opportunity there is that solar can

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Speaker 4: be built quickly. Yeah, solar doesn't get firmed. You need

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Speaker 4: something else to firm solar, so it will have always

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Speaker 4: a niche.

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Speaker 3: It always look at the weather out there today.

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Speaker 4: This is Wellington, it's New Zealand. Doesn't have the same

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Speaker 4: resource as say Australia or Chile, but it does have

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Speaker 4: that niche application. The wonderful thing about solar, remember is

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Speaker 4: it's summer weight and one of our major industries, dairy

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Speaker 4: is some are weighted in terms of demand. So there

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Speaker 4: is again a niche application I think for solar, but

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Speaker 4: it won't be providing the same broad base and it

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Speaker 4: doesn't go on at night in.

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Speaker 1: Terms of what you're paying forty eight percent premium. There's

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Speaker 1: also some red flags with Manawa. I would say at

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Speaker 1: the moment, just a little while ago they had earnings

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Speaker 1: downgrade about twenty five percent. I think there was a

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Speaker 1: bad debt with the retailer involved in that. They've got

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Speaker 1: some low lake levels they talked about at the time

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Speaker 1: when they did their Q one report. What are you

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Speaker 1: thinking in terms of actually is it turning stuff around

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Speaker 1: or I mean, are the concerns you You've obviously done

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Speaker 1: your due dilidence.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, we did extensive due diligence. So the very

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Speaker 4: reasons for the earnings downgrade are the very reasons why

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Speaker 4: Manu it is better together with us, because that broader

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Speaker 4: portfolio has a order resilience. Now, remember when that high

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Speaker 4: price period, we did the deal with Method X to

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Speaker 4: allow us to burn gas, which immediately stabilized the market

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Speaker 4: along with Genesis and brought back a degree of rational prices.

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Speaker 4: And Manua being part of our portfolio would mean it

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Speaker 4: is not exposed to that extreme type of event. In

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Speaker 4: terms of the assets themselves twenty five hydro schemes, the

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Speaker 4: important thing is is that people remember eight of those

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Speaker 4: are of a reasonable size and they will fit perfectly

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Speaker 4: within our portfolio and with the remainder with those Runner

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Speaker 4: River small hydros, you've just got to have an appropriate

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Speaker 4: maintenance and risk management strategy in place so you're not

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Speaker 4: over investing, but you're operating them safely and if you

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Speaker 4: have a common sense approach. We've seen that common sense

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Speaker 4: approach from Manima as we did our due diligence and

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Speaker 4: we have a look where IO fifty five thousand are credited.

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Speaker 4: In terms of our asset management. We have a rigorous

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Speaker 4: approach to risk and investment and stay in business carepex.

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Speaker 4: We don't overspend and we have a strong track record.

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Speaker 4: Remember why Raki is over sixty years old and we've

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Speaker 4: kept it going for thirty years beyond its design life

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Speaker 4: without a process safety incident, been operating it very safely.

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Speaker 4: And it's that risk management, that rigorous asset management framework

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Speaker 4: that we apply that keeps us all safe.

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Speaker 1: You talk about looking at the deal over nearly two years.

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Speaker 1: Was it a time when you thought you're going to

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Speaker 1: have to do something else in order to get those renewables,

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Speaker 1: you know, change the portfolio mats.

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Speaker 4: Oh, look, we always have a plan B. We had

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Speaker 4: a clearly communicated strategy to the whole of market about

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Speaker 4: what we were doing, and this.

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Speaker 3: Deal just allows us to excelerate that. We always had

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Speaker 3: a plan B.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now investors are not just looking at the dollars

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Speaker 1: and cents. They are consumers a lot of the time.

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Speaker 1: Some of them are businesses. We've had the Windstone Mills clothes.

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Speaker 1: I will say, Mercury, was this not you guys? Does

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Speaker 1: that mean with the steal that we will have better competitions?

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Speaker 1: What I've heard you saying in recent reports, can you

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Speaker 1: explain what you mean there?

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Speaker 4: So look, the problem at the moment is that there

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Speaker 4: is no problem with the electricity market. There is a

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Speaker 4: problem with the upstream gas market. And so in that

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Speaker 4: period of scarcity, what you saw is a scarcity of water,

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Speaker 4: a scarcity of wind. What's the next dispatch gas? There

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Speaker 4: is no gas, you go to diesel. The moment that rainfalls,

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Speaker 4: prices came straight back down again. And so what this

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Speaker 4: enables it releases just through the combination of portfolios, another

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Speaker 4: two to three hundred gig what hours a year, and

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Speaker 4: then through the ability to exlerate wind and solar options

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Speaker 4: that will bring additional supply to market. And if you've

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Speaker 4: got a supply demand and balance like that leading to diesel,

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Speaker 4: the only way to solve that is to increase supply,

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Speaker 4: to build more power stations. And I think it's important

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Speaker 4: that people understand that and look on Winston's look, that

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Speaker 4: was tragic when people lose their jobs like that, But

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Speaker 4: there are systemic issues in pulp at the moment. Not

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Speaker 4: many of us are reading a paper newspaper anymore. And

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Speaker 4: so they actually had a reasonable power deal with Mercury,

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Speaker 4: which was in line with international prices, and Mercury came

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Speaker 4: out very strongly on that. The reality is is that

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Speaker 4: pulp economics globally are challenged. And the other thing I'll

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Speaker 4: say is that other would processes like og Panpak chose

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Speaker 4: early days to hedge and they have a very sharply

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Speaker 4: priced PPA with us through the MUKE which we participated in,

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Speaker 4: and because they were willing to sign up to a

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Speaker 4: ten year deal and support the renewable transition, they're still

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Speaker 4: in operation today. Okay, so it's not as clear cut

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Speaker 4: as a m it's certainly not quite as clear cut

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Speaker 4: as what it was made out.

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Speaker 1: The Comments Commission has to approve the steel. You're fairly

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Speaker 1: confident that will happen. You talk about more competition, perhaps

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Speaker 1: better fixed term contracts for industrial Yes, commercial operators tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit more about that.

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Speaker 4: So our advocacy is we wouldn't have got to this

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Speaker 4: point if we weren't confident of clearing the Commerce Commission.

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Speaker 4: But we have to keep telling our story. Yes, that's

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Speaker 4: really important. We think the increased supply, both through the

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Speaker 4: deal itself and the additional development, will it further increase

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Speaker 4: the downward pressure on prices.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: The thing is for large gal industrials, we are passionate

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Speaker 4: that the decarbonization of New Zealand should not mean the

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Speaker 4: de industrialization. And that's why we particularly as Contact, have

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Speaker 4: been putting in the place these long term power supply

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Speaker 4: deals at very sharp prices with the smelter with New

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Speaker 4: Zealand steel, with Ogpampak, with food stuffs, where counterparties who

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Speaker 4: are willing to stand up to the mark and invest

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Speaker 4: it there in renewable energy, we're prepared to say, hey,

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Speaker 4: here's a project which will benefit from that long term

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Speaker 4: ppa and do those long term, reasonably priced power deals.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's going to mean businesses won't be closing?

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Speaker 1: As you've said, it's not always, you know, it's clear cut.

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Speaker 4: It all depends on how fast we can build that

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Speaker 4: new generation. If we get lost in the bureaucracy and complication,

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Speaker 4: then those new projects will not get built. If we're

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Speaker 4: able to clear away some of the bureaucratic tangle and

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Speaker 4: get on with building these new renewable energy projects, prices

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Speaker 4: will quite naturally get back to what is a fair

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Speaker 4: and reasonable level.

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Speaker 1: Do you mean fast? Is it a fast traight legislation

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Speaker 1: helping with.

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Speaker 3: That, or it's all it's.

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Speaker 4: Stable market settings, it's Resource Management Act reform, the fast

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Speaker 4: Track reform.

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Speaker 3: It is being absolutely its counterparties been.

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Speaker 4: Willing to invest or sign up to long term PPAs.

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Speaker 4: It's all of the above. For our investors, it's the

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Speaker 4: more we can uncomplicate, uncomplicate this whole morass that we're

401
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Speaker 4: in at the moment. If we can make look a

402
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Speaker 4: solar project Kofi Park took will take eighteen months to

403
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Speaker 4: bring online. Preparing for it, even with a very straightforward

404
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Speaker 4: resource consent took over two years. A wind farm takes

405
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Speaker 4: two and a half years to build. The resource consent

406
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Speaker 4: can take five years. At some point, it's more important

407
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Speaker 4: that we focus on the people who are pouring the

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Speaker 4: concrete and welding the steel than shuffling the paper. Yes,

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Speaker 4: and that's the challenge for us as a nation.

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Speaker 1: Where does it put contact? This steal does go ahead.

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Speaker 1: In terms of where you are in the market, you'll

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Speaker 1: share there are other generation retailers.

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Speaker 4: You know, it doesn't change our retail share of market

414
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Speaker 4: because Manor has.

415
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Speaker 1: No No, it doesn't, I mean, I mean with your but.

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Speaker 4: In terms of generation, it just puts us on today's

417
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Speaker 4: numbers just ahead of Mercury, but well behind Meridian.

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Speaker 3: So number two or three.

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Speaker 1: Are market and is that what you're hoping for?

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's that's good.

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Speaker 4: We don't we're not doing the deal just to grow

422
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Speaker 4: for growth sake. We're doing the deal because we think

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Speaker 4: it will give great returns to shareholders and that it's

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Speaker 4: the right thing to do for the country and that

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Speaker 4: decarbonization journey. If you end up second when you were fourth, yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's an interesting observation, but that's not why we're doing

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Speaker 4: the deal.

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Speaker 1: What about the political interference or interest? I mean, have

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Speaker 1: you had talks with government about this?

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Speaker 4: We keep going very well appraised to what we're doing.

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Speaker 4: So obviously we're in constant communication with the Minister of Energy,

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Speaker 4: with the Associate Mister of Energy. We communicate regularly with

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Speaker 4: the opposition. We make sure that we're taking everyone along

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Speaker 4: with us on the journey. Insurance Shane Jones absolutely, Marta Shane.

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Speaker 4: I have regular conversations with Shane vet And that's a

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Speaker 4: wonderful thing about New Zealand is look, you can disagree,

437
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 4: but you can do it in a way that is

438
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Speaker 4: respectful and you don't have to cross the road when

439
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Speaker 4: you see them on the streets. That's the wonderful thing

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Speaker 4: about New Zealand. It is a village and the important

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Speaker 4: thing is we can debate and argue vaciferously, but we

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Speaker 4: still respect each other.

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Speaker 1: That's great. It's nice to end on that, I think. Mike,

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Speaker 1: thanks for coming in today and giving us your insights,

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