WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #265 - November 13th 2024 - David Bell 0:00:09.133 --> 0:00:12.013 You're listening to a podcast from news Talks It be 0:00:12.413 --> 0:00:16.213 Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.733 --> 0:00:19.733 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.773 --> 0:00:25.293 the information, all the debates. Off down the Layton Smith 0:00:25.413 --> 0:00:27.533 podcast powered by news Talks It. 0:00:27.613 --> 0:00:30.413 Be Welcome to podcasts two hundred and sixty five and 0:00:30.453 --> 0:00:34.813 November thirteen, twenty twenty four. How well We're governed is 0:00:34.973 --> 0:00:38.973 entitled to be an open, continuous question. Political competence is 0:00:39.013 --> 0:00:44.013 never guaranteed. Complacency is too easy a position to settle 0:00:44.013 --> 0:00:47.893 in which states the case for the need for skeptics. 0:00:48.453 --> 0:00:52.333 Whether it's New Zealand, Australia, Britain, America, the principles are 0:00:52.333 --> 0:00:56.213 the same that I leave out Canada. Now that DJ 0:00:56.413 --> 0:01:00.013 Trump has been re elected, is no reason to relax 0:01:00.093 --> 0:01:03.853 and expect all aspects of administration to be perfect. There's 0:01:03.973 --> 0:01:10.573 always something capable of dispensing unexpected issues, such as the 0:01:10.613 --> 0:01:15.613 World Health Organization. Here are two headlines Shane Jones World 0:01:15.613 --> 0:01:21.693 Health Organization needs reform, not fattening zecond aheader New Zealand First, 0:01:21.733 --> 0:01:27.253 fears over who regulations are misplaced, Robust checks and balances 0:01:27.773 --> 0:01:32.493 already exist and here is a giveaway that is halfway 0:01:32.533 --> 0:01:35.413 down the page. You can trust this article because it's 0:01:35.413 --> 0:01:41.093 written by academics, really, but you get the picture. Looks 0:01:41.133 --> 0:01:46.373 all sounds like the ultimate pulpits of truth. Now in 0:01:46.413 --> 0:01:49.173 the interview to follow with doctor David Bell, who has 0:01:49.213 --> 0:01:52.653 been on the podcast on a few occasions now, and 0:01:52.693 --> 0:01:56.653 if you wonder why, the answer is because I appreciate 0:01:56.773 --> 0:02:02.293 his opinions. Discussion covers what I've already mentioned and a 0:02:02.293 --> 0:02:04.133 whole lot more. I think the best way I can 0:02:04.173 --> 0:02:08.053 describe it is it is and will be enlightening. Now 0:02:08.053 --> 0:02:12.413 brief to another matter. I quote you Neil ferguson the historian. 0:02:12.853 --> 0:02:17.373 Trump's victory is a blow to political lawfare, critical race theory, 0:02:17.573 --> 0:02:22.453 woke campuses, legacy media, and Hollywood. It's also a win 0:02:22.573 --> 0:02:26.493 for a new generation of builders like Elon Musk. Now, 0:02:26.533 --> 0:02:29.373 after the mail room, we shall indulge in a little 0:02:29.413 --> 0:02:34.693 more on Trump's triumph last week, but in a moment David. 0:02:34.373 --> 0:02:44.733 Bell Layton Smith. 0:02:45.093 --> 0:02:49.533 Leverix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. 0:02:49.733 --> 0:02:53.613 Leverix relieves hay fever and skin allergies or itchy skin. 0:02:54.093 --> 0:02:58.373 It's a dual action antihistamine and has a unique nasal 0:02:58.613 --> 0:03:03.253 decongested action. It's fast acting for fast relief and it 0:03:03.293 --> 0:03:06.413 works in under an hour and lasts for over twenty 0:03:06.453 --> 0:03:10.253 four hours. Leverrix is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose, 0:03:10.573 --> 0:03:14.453 deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Levericks is an 0:03:14.493 --> 0:03:18.853 antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. So next 0:03:18.853 --> 0:03:22.413 time you're in need of an effective antihistamine, call into 0:03:22.453 --> 0:03:27.053 the pharmacy and ask for Leverix l e v Rix 0:03:27.493 --> 0:03:31.213 Leverix and always read the label. Takes directed and if 0:03:31.253 --> 0:03:41.213 symptoms persist, see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. David Bell, 0:03:41.773 --> 0:03:45.093 Senior Scholar at Brownstone Institute, is a public health physician 0:03:45.333 --> 0:03:49.373 a biotech consultant in global health. David is a former 0:03:49.493 --> 0:03:53.333 medical officer and scientist at the World Health Organization, the 0:03:53.413 --> 0:03:57.973 WHO Program head for Malaria and febrile Diseases at the 0:03:58.013 --> 0:04:03.653 Foundation for Innovative New Diagnostics in Geneva, and Director of 0:04:03.973 --> 0:04:09.773 Global Health Technologies at Intellectual Ventures Global Good in Bellevue 0:04:10.013 --> 0:04:14.493 in Washington State in the United States. He is also 0:04:14.853 --> 0:04:18.333 a guest on this podcast, has been a guest on 0:04:18.373 --> 0:04:22.133 this podcast more than once, twice, three, maybe four times. 0:04:22.453 --> 0:04:24.693 And it's very good to welcome you back. I'm appreciative 0:04:24.853 --> 0:04:28.413 of the fact that you are here. Yeah, thanks for 0:04:28.453 --> 0:04:32.093 having me back late. It is always interesting, it is 0:04:32.093 --> 0:04:34.573 always a pleasure. I got to say, what a quote. 0:04:34.893 --> 0:04:36.853 I want to quote a lot of things actually in 0:04:36.973 --> 0:04:42.373 this podcast, but let me start with an example of destructive, 0:04:42.733 --> 0:04:47.373 unaccountable bureaucratic overreach, which is part of what you opened 0:04:47.453 --> 0:04:51.893 up with for a column on Brownstone. An example and 0:04:51.973 --> 0:04:57.213 I repeat it, of destructive, unaccountable bureaucratic overreach. Are you 0:04:57.333 --> 0:05:02.213 taking a stronger stance over I won't say against, but 0:05:02.413 --> 0:05:04.373 over the World Health Organization? 0:05:04.533 --> 0:05:09.133 Now, I don't think so. I've I think for the 0:05:09.173 --> 0:05:12.253 last four years, I've been pointing out what is going on. 0:05:12.613 --> 0:05:15.213 I mean, in the end, you have an organization that 0:05:15.413 --> 0:05:19.733 has knowingly impoverished the world and that they absolutely knew 0:05:19.733 --> 0:05:22.613 what they're doing. And it's I think most of your 0:05:22.893 --> 0:05:28.013 viewers probably don't understand the extent of an additional one 0:05:28.093 --> 0:05:31.533 hundred million plus people in severe poverty through deprivation, up 0:05:31.573 --> 0:05:35.493 to ten million girls in additional in child marriage, increased 0:05:35.573 --> 0:05:39.173 child labor, a huge increase in national debt, in low 0:05:39.173 --> 0:05:43.533 income countries, which will translate into them being forced to 0:05:43.573 --> 0:05:48.693 comply with global predators who prey on such in derbted countries. 0:05:49.373 --> 0:05:52.613 And this is what has happened. I think now it's 0:05:52.613 --> 0:05:56.493 interesting because that there's a chance at least something may 0:05:56.613 --> 0:06:01.333 change slightly with the US election. So it's but I 0:06:01.373 --> 0:06:06.613 think those words are not out of sync with what've 0:06:06.973 --> 0:06:10.053 and others have been saying for quite a while. I 0:06:10.093 --> 0:06:14.213 was going to is a massive organization, is a huge bureaucracy, 0:06:14.453 --> 0:06:17.773 It's grossly out of touch with reality, and it is 0:06:18.013 --> 0:06:20.293 deliberately misleading countries. 0:06:20.813 --> 0:06:23.613 I was going to raise the American election result with 0:06:23.733 --> 0:06:26.693 you a little later, so let's just park it for 0:06:26.733 --> 0:06:29.533 the moment, because there is probably a little more than 0:06:30.533 --> 0:06:36.853 just this to discuss. I want to quote you this 0:06:36.893 --> 0:06:41.373 particular headline, followed by another one New Zealand first, fears 0:06:41.413 --> 0:06:48.613 over who regulations are misplaced, robust checks and balances already exist, 0:06:50.093 --> 0:06:53.853 and then the second headline is Shane Jones world health 0:06:53.933 --> 0:06:56.653 organization needs reform not fappening. 0:06:56.853 --> 0:06:57.013 Now. 0:06:57.053 --> 0:07:01.933 These are two at variance commentaries. One is written by journalists, 0:07:01.933 --> 0:07:06.253 the other is written by well politician, which one of 0:07:06.253 --> 0:07:08.653 those is closer to the reality. 0:07:09.093 --> 0:07:12.413 Or clearly the second one. I think that's time I 0:07:12.413 --> 0:07:14.453 was on this program where I was we were talking 0:07:14.493 --> 0:07:16.733 about the work of the University of Leeds, where we're 0:07:16.733 --> 0:07:22.173 looking at the International Pandemic Agenda, the push by WHO, 0:07:22.933 --> 0:07:25.773 World Bank, G twenty, et cetera to increase funding from 0:07:25.813 --> 0:07:32.093 countries from taxpayers for this rapidly growing bureaucracy around pandemics 0:07:32.093 --> 0:07:37.013 and supposedly increasing pandemic risk, and where we've shown conclusively 0:07:37.093 --> 0:07:41.733 that this is well as WHO would term it misinformation. 0:07:42.773 --> 0:07:48.533 They are twisting the reality around infectious disease, pandemic risk 0:07:48.693 --> 0:07:51.773 and the costs of dealing with it and the effect 0:07:51.773 --> 0:07:55.773 that would have. But journalists, I think, by and large 0:07:55.813 --> 0:07:58.853 don't dig into things like that anymore. They just assume 0:07:58.933 --> 0:08:02.173 if the World Bank or the G twenty says something, 0:08:02.173 --> 0:08:05.173 it must be true. So I'm not defending journalists, but 0:08:05.213 --> 0:08:09.653 I think that's probably where those sorts of responses come from. 0:08:09.933 --> 0:08:12.893 So I mean, when that is happening, when the WHO 0:08:13.053 --> 0:08:17.013 is doing that as well, then clearly what change journes 0:08:17.133 --> 0:08:21.213 it makes sense that the WHO is it is a 0:08:21.333 --> 0:08:24.373 huge It's not just a WHO, but the whole intershal 0:08:24.373 --> 0:08:27.573 health bureaucracy is tens of thousands of people. 0:08:27.613 --> 0:08:27.773 Now. 0:08:28.013 --> 0:08:32.293 It is a huge and rapidly growing industry that lives 0:08:32.733 --> 0:08:36.813 mostly off taxpayer money and mostly in very wealthy countries, 0:08:38.813 --> 0:08:43.693 and as we saw in COVID, is now no longer 0:08:43.733 --> 0:08:49.773 really helping, but is increasing the risk of port health 0:08:49.813 --> 0:08:54.733 and impoverishing people, concentrating wealth in the pharmaceutical companies that 0:08:54.773 --> 0:08:59.213 have very much become influential in it. What these organizations 0:08:59.213 --> 0:09:03.573 should be doing is helping countries when they're asked to 0:09:03.613 --> 0:09:07.013 build capacity so that we don't need these organizations anymore. 0:09:08.533 --> 0:09:10.893 So that's the op they shouldn't be growing. You know, 0:09:11.533 --> 0:09:14.613 there was a who is set up in the late 0:09:14.693 --> 0:09:19.933 nineteen forties. It was helping countries that came out of 0:09:19.933 --> 0:09:23.613 colonialism to sort of get on their feet deal with 0:09:24.093 --> 0:09:30.013 major diseases like malaria, tuberculosis, and now those what should 0:09:30.053 --> 0:09:32.373 be happening is us countries should be getting on their feet, 0:09:32.413 --> 0:09:36.173 so we shouldn't need the WHO anymore in anything like 0:09:37.293 --> 0:09:40.093 you know, as a large organization, you can have a 0:09:40.093 --> 0:09:44.013 place where countries meet and so on, but there isn't 0:09:44.013 --> 0:09:49.973 a place for a growing international health bureaucracy. If we 0:09:50.093 --> 0:09:53.693 are getting better at medicine in countries and we're building capacity, 0:09:53.733 --> 0:09:58.213 and sanitation is getting better, and nutrition is getting better, 0:09:58.213 --> 0:10:02.013 et cetera. It should be. And if that's still not 0:10:02.093 --> 0:10:04.773 the case, if we're seventy or eighty years into WHO 0:10:05.213 --> 0:10:08.253 and they are seeing the problems are growing and not 0:10:08.413 --> 0:10:12.333 reducing despite all the improvement in technology and everything in 0:10:12.333 --> 0:10:16.773 the world, then clearly they're a gross failure anyway, So 0:10:16.813 --> 0:10:18.213 we should be looking at something else. 0:10:18.973 --> 0:10:23.333 Since twenty twenty, the WHO has orchestrated and condoned one 0:10:23.373 --> 0:10:27.173 of the most devastating assaults on individual and societal health 0:10:27.293 --> 0:10:31.373 the world has seen. At the behest of highly conflicted sponsors, 0:10:31.573 --> 0:10:36.453 this international bureaucracy promoted policies that overwhelmingly harmed the world's 0:10:36.493 --> 0:10:40.093 most disadvantage. The organization turned on those whom it had 0:10:40.133 --> 0:10:43.613 been set up to serve. Returning to the pre World 0:10:43.613 --> 0:10:49.013 War II mindset of technocratic authoritarianism that characterize public health 0:10:49.053 --> 0:10:55.253 in the area of eugenics, colonialism, and European fascism. Now 0:10:55.293 --> 0:10:59.013 those last three terms are things that those of the 0:10:59.133 --> 0:11:04.773 left regale against constantly, and yet here we are, and 0:11:04.813 --> 0:11:09.893 here you are writing that about an organization that we 0:11:09.973 --> 0:11:15.173 all know the bureaucracies either live by growth or die 0:11:15.253 --> 0:11:19.613 by the growth. So is it fair to say that 0:11:19.653 --> 0:11:22.573 they're simply thinking of survival. 0:11:23.093 --> 0:11:30.053 The thing of growth. Yeah. So the demos are organization 0:11:30.133 --> 0:11:32.173 of thousands of people, and there's still people there who 0:11:32.253 --> 0:11:35.293 are working hard and doing useful stuff. It's not like 0:11:35.453 --> 0:11:40.213 the whole organization is completely corrupted, but I think at 0:11:40.253 --> 0:11:42.893 the top of the policy level it has been for 0:11:42.933 --> 0:11:46.413 the last several years. And you know, I mentioned some 0:11:46.453 --> 0:11:49.613 of the numbers in COVID. Then the abandonment of science 0:11:49.653 --> 0:11:53.613 in COVID, which was gross, the abandonment of pretending that 0:11:53.773 --> 0:11:58.813 mass work and social distincting and pretending that you should 0:11:58.853 --> 0:12:01.973 close stop travel when you've got the same virus on 0:12:02.293 --> 0:12:07.653 both hents of the travel path and the essential completely 0:12:07.973 --> 0:12:13.493 district guard for human immunity natural immunity. We had the 0:12:13.573 --> 0:12:18.133 most expensive of public health program in Africa or mass 0:12:18.293 --> 0:12:22.253 vaccination when who knew from their own studies that almost 0:12:22.253 --> 0:12:28.813 the whole population already had effective immunity against COVID from 0:12:28.933 --> 0:12:34.493 natural infection. So it's an organization which there's thousands of people. 0:12:35.093 --> 0:12:38.853 If you're in an organization for twenty or thirty years, 0:12:38.893 --> 0:12:42.173 inevitably you sort of lose the edge of the good 0:12:42.173 --> 0:12:45.773 intent you might have gone in with, and you become 0:12:46.013 --> 0:12:49.253 you want your pension, which is very extremely good at 0:12:49.373 --> 0:12:51.333 who so you want to hang out for that, So 0:12:51.413 --> 0:12:54.853 you want to comply. You have your kids in high 0:12:54.853 --> 0:12:56.853 school or college or whatever, and they get a seventy 0:12:56.893 --> 0:13:01.253 five percent education subsidy, you get a rental subsidy, you 0:13:01.293 --> 0:13:03.453 get very good salary. On top of all this, you 0:13:03.453 --> 0:13:06.733 get business class travel, five star hotels or the rest 0:13:06.733 --> 0:13:12.533 of it. You inevitably, almost everyone, I think, start to 0:13:12.573 --> 0:13:16.413 think that you're one, you're really important, more important than 0:13:16.453 --> 0:13:18.773 other people because you've paid so well when you travel 0:13:18.813 --> 0:13:23.173 in important aircraft seats and get picked up by cars 0:13:23.213 --> 0:13:29.253 with a blue badge on the door. And secondly, oh, 0:13:29.293 --> 0:13:32.373 you see it in all institutions, I think the role 0:13:32.453 --> 0:13:35.253 of the institution, or the existence and the reputation the 0:13:35.253 --> 0:13:40.293 institution becomes your primary focus because you think that the 0:13:40.653 --> 0:13:43.453 world needs your institution and therefore you must protect it. 0:13:43.533 --> 0:13:45.453 So you know, this is the sort of thing that 0:13:45.573 --> 0:13:49.613 is the effect of the Catholic Church, for instance, with 0:13:49.933 --> 0:13:54.293 the cover up of child sexual abuse in the past, 0:13:54.413 --> 0:13:56.973 and you see the same thing in the un actually 0:13:57.013 --> 0:14:01.733 for exactly the same issue, or really the Human Rights 0:14:01.733 --> 0:14:04.613 Council has been guilty of this in Central African Republic 0:14:04.653 --> 0:14:08.293 about ten years ago. So you tend to put your 0:14:08.373 --> 0:14:12.493 your organization first and not the supposed goal of the organization. 0:14:12.813 --> 0:14:16.173 And yeah, I don't know of any bureaucracy anywhere that 0:14:16.253 --> 0:14:19.173 has worked to put itself out of existence, because that 0:14:19.253 --> 0:14:22.413 means losing your salary, losing the salary of your team. 0:14:23.053 --> 0:14:26.373 But if you're an international organization that is a servant 0:14:26.413 --> 0:14:29.893 of countries and a servant of populations and your job 0:14:29.933 --> 0:14:32.093 is to build their capacity, that is actually what you 0:14:32.133 --> 0:14:35.293 should do. So I can imagine you could struct an 0:14:35.333 --> 0:14:38.933 organization to do that. It's probably something where people can 0:14:38.973 --> 0:14:40.693 only say five or ten years, and they have to 0:14:40.773 --> 0:14:43.933 rotate out anyway, so it doesn't become their permanent home. 0:14:44.573 --> 0:14:48.093 But once you allow an organization to become a permanent 0:14:48.133 --> 0:14:50.933 home for a large bureaucracy, it's not going to work 0:14:50.973 --> 0:14:53.373 its way out of assistance. It's going to look to grow, 0:14:53.973 --> 0:14:58.413 because that's just what human institutions do. And in Who's case, 0:14:58.573 --> 0:15:02.333 to grow it meant throwing away essentially a lot of 0:15:02.373 --> 0:15:07.293 the conflict of interests rules that they had in the 0:15:07.373 --> 0:15:12.253 past and getting to bed with large corporations and private 0:15:12.333 --> 0:15:16.333 sector investors, and so about twenty five percent of their 0:15:16.373 --> 0:15:22.213 budget now is directly from or in directly from private sector, 0:15:23.533 --> 0:15:26.533 and most of their budget, whether from countries or private sector, 0:15:26.653 --> 0:15:30.293 is specified so that the funder tells you what you 0:15:30.293 --> 0:15:32.853 would do with that money. That's not how WHO started. 0:15:33.413 --> 0:15:37.293 It was supposed to be an organization where technical expertise, 0:15:37.333 --> 0:15:42.293 at the request of countries would be used to address 0:15:42.373 --> 0:15:46.613 the needs of those countries. It's become, through its budget, 0:15:46.773 --> 0:15:50.973 an organization that follows the instructions of those who are 0:15:50.973 --> 0:15:54.693 giving it money. And that happens because you keep thinking 0:15:54.813 --> 0:15:58.293 more money will be good, and you're you know you're 0:15:58.933 --> 0:16:02.013 capable of handing the conflict of interest bit and you 0:16:02.053 --> 0:16:04.133 won't be corrupted a sea, But of course you are, 0:16:04.213 --> 0:16:06.533 because you know that to get refunded next year, you 0:16:06.573 --> 0:16:09.733 have to please that funder. So when I worked in WHO, 0:16:09.813 --> 0:16:12.893 I saw this growing. I started in about two thousand 0:16:12.893 --> 0:16:15.613 and two worked there for about eight or ten years, 0:16:15.613 --> 0:16:19.453 and this was a period particularly where private foundations became 0:16:19.973 --> 0:16:25.133 very influential, where the probably private partnerships alongside WHO grew 0:16:25.213 --> 0:16:29.893 up and became influential on it and the COVID response 0:16:29.973 --> 0:16:37.053 is inevitable. Result of that. It was essentially restructuring response 0:16:37.133 --> 0:16:42.853 to outbreaks in order to maximize profit through mass vaccination 0:16:43.373 --> 0:16:47.013 forever a disease that almost really almost no one should 0:16:47.013 --> 0:16:50.533 have been needed to be vaccinated. So the reason for that, 0:16:50.573 --> 0:16:52.893 and the reason they abandoned their old guidelines and did 0:16:52.933 --> 0:16:55.693 that was because that was what they needed to do 0:16:55.773 --> 0:17:01.613 to please their funders. So it's who is a tool 0:17:01.813 --> 0:17:04.173 of others. It's supposed to be a tool of countries, 0:17:04.213 --> 0:17:06.693 and it should be a temporary tool until the country 0:17:06.773 --> 0:17:09.893 stand on their own feet. Has become a fol of 0:17:10.133 --> 0:17:14.933 the pharmaceutical industry and biotech and those who invest in it. Yeah, 0:17:15.013 --> 0:17:19.893 so I think you know, Shane Jones is arriets. It 0:17:20.013 --> 0:17:24.373 is not contributing. Now, there's no reason for it to 0:17:24.413 --> 0:17:29.053 grow because actually infectious disease mortality has been steadily declining 0:17:29.093 --> 0:17:32.933 to spital the hype, and over the last many decades, 0:17:32.973 --> 0:17:38.893 the mortality from outbreaks and from pandemics has been declining. 0:17:40.053 --> 0:17:43.693 So COVID was an outlier which very likely was not 0:17:43.773 --> 0:17:48.613 a natural outbreak, and certainly many of the deaths from 0:17:48.653 --> 0:17:53.613 covid iatrogenic. There's really little doubt about that with the 0:17:53.653 --> 0:17:57.213 mass use of drugs like remdeser beere and very early 0:17:57.293 --> 0:18:03.133 intubation early on in the pandemic, so people panicked. They 0:18:03.173 --> 0:18:06.133 did that. That happened because there was a huge media 0:18:06.173 --> 0:18:09.373 operation to make people panic. And the now mortality is 0:18:09.413 --> 0:18:13.333 almost zero, and most of that is from people gaining 0:18:14.493 --> 0:18:18.053 well one from people gaining natural immunity too, because if 0:18:18.093 --> 0:18:21.173 you just leave it as you would treat a common cold, 0:18:21.213 --> 0:18:23.333 then for the vast majority of the population, that'll be 0:18:23.373 --> 0:18:27.813 what it is. So it was used as a tool 0:18:27.973 --> 0:18:31.733 to please these funders. But apart from that, there is 0:18:31.973 --> 0:18:35.173 very little in the way of our breaks astray, the 0:18:35.493 --> 0:18:40.293 mass cholera immortality, the plague, that yellow fever and so on. 0:18:40.493 --> 0:18:43.373 We have very small outbreaks. Now these are things of 0:18:43.413 --> 0:18:47.093 the past. So there's no good reason for the WHA 0:18:47.133 --> 0:18:49.053 to be growing at all. It should be shrinking. 0:18:50.293 --> 0:18:51.173 But it's not going to. 0:18:52.773 --> 0:18:56.933 It's not going to unless there's a radical change in 0:18:56.973 --> 0:19:00.173 the way it's run. And it is hard to see 0:19:00.173 --> 0:19:02.653 how that would happen because an organization like that, you've 0:19:02.653 --> 0:19:06.053 got to do that change to a large extent through 0:19:06.173 --> 0:19:08.213 people there who would be extremely resistant. 0:19:09.093 --> 0:19:13.813 I know that we've discussed this before from one aspect anyway, 0:19:14.053 --> 0:19:17.373 But let me let me just raise it again. What 0:19:17.533 --> 0:19:22.133 would be the I'm going back to the conflict between 0:19:22.373 --> 0:19:26.373 Shane Jones just to use this as an example and journalists, 0:19:26.773 --> 0:19:30.053 because the journalists are pretty much all the same. They're 0:19:30.213 --> 0:19:33.493 they're the same over the over the American election as well. 0:19:33.893 --> 0:19:37.933 They can't help themselves. But if New Zealand were to 0:19:37.973 --> 0:19:41.053 not participate in the in the changes that are being 0:19:41.093 --> 0:19:45.493 made by the World Health Organization, what would be the downside? 0:19:46.733 --> 0:19:51.253 None for New Zealand, it would save some money and 0:19:51.413 --> 0:19:57.493 it would not be essentially forced to build a large 0:19:57.893 --> 0:20:02.533 surveillance network to find viral variants and then risk you know, 0:20:02.693 --> 0:20:05.773 being having to lock down and destroy your economy again 0:20:06.173 --> 0:20:10.373 to assuage the needs of in Geneva. So there are 0:20:10.373 --> 0:20:14.213 plenty of diseases for New Zealanders to deal with. Most 0:20:14.213 --> 0:20:17.733 people die of cancer, heart disease, cutting, vascular disease, et cetera. 0:20:19.053 --> 0:20:23.493 There are still significant rheumatic heart disease and other infection 0:20:24.293 --> 0:20:30.173 based mortality in all populations, in particularly indigenous populations around 0:20:30.173 --> 0:20:32.653 the Pacific and so on. There's plenty for New Zealand 0:20:32.733 --> 0:20:37.813 to do without participating in a sort of essentially fast 0:20:38.053 --> 0:20:44.173 this falsification of risk. So there's nothing that would matter 0:20:44.333 --> 0:20:46.973 unless you got to a situation where the World Bank 0:20:47.013 --> 0:20:49.013 and the IMF, who are very on board with this 0:20:49.253 --> 0:20:55.813 agenda of who decided to punish New Zealand. And New 0:20:55.893 --> 0:20:58.573 Zealand now I think has a very large initial debt 0:20:58.853 --> 0:21:03.293 which would encouraging the COVID response like many countries, so 0:21:03.373 --> 0:21:08.973 that makes you much more vulnerable to that. So that's 0:21:09.173 --> 0:21:11.573 I mean, we'll come back to the US, but this 0:21:11.653 --> 0:21:14.533 is where it'll be interesting to see whether the international 0:21:14.573 --> 0:21:18.173 political situation has changed such that you can't be punished 0:21:18.173 --> 0:21:19.613 for that, because that will take a lot of the 0:21:19.613 --> 0:21:22.533 wind out of the sales of the pandemic. 0:21:23.013 --> 0:21:28.333 I don't know whether this is international or spreads wider 0:21:28.333 --> 0:21:32.373 than New Zealand, but I've noticed that the people who 0:21:34.413 --> 0:21:40.533 are deserving of some degree of condemnation over their behavior 0:21:40.573 --> 0:21:45.333 and attitude toward the administration of the last few years 0:21:45.773 --> 0:21:49.093 are the same people who are promoting and pushing hardest 0:21:49.653 --> 0:21:53.613 for New Zealand to participate in the in the latest 0:21:53.693 --> 0:21:56.013 changes being made by the Who. 0:21:56.773 --> 0:22:00.253 Why would that be, do you think? Yeah, I think 0:22:00.253 --> 0:22:05.213 it's a range of motivations. Some people. I think they 0:22:05.293 --> 0:22:09.933 do very well from funding from the pharmaceuticals who are 0:22:10.013 --> 0:22:12.173 very much behind this agenda, because they see hundreds of 0:22:12.213 --> 0:22:15.813 billions of dollars of profit in the long term. So 0:22:16.293 --> 0:22:19.613 they're doing what they're paid for probably or what they were. 0:22:19.653 --> 0:22:23.413 They're saying what they see as the best potential for 0:22:23.453 --> 0:22:26.053 them to get paid in the future. I think others, 0:22:26.733 --> 0:22:29.573 as we said that they genuinely believe this story, that 0:22:29.693 --> 0:22:35.173 they just assume that these large institutions would be telling 0:22:35.213 --> 0:22:38.133 the truth, that they have expertise, which they don't, and 0:22:39.293 --> 0:22:42.413 that they are you know, so they just go along 0:22:42.453 --> 0:22:44.693 and they're not going to stop and think deeply because 0:22:44.693 --> 0:22:46.813 they've all been told that anyone who does is al 0:22:46.893 --> 0:22:50.733 right wing conspiracy theorists and they're likely to be vilified. 0:22:50.853 --> 0:22:53.613 So they you know, if you want a good job 0:22:53.653 --> 0:22:57.213 in global health, international public health, you don't stick your 0:22:57.253 --> 0:23:01.053 head out like that. And yeah, I think others they 0:23:01.093 --> 0:23:04.533 may be realizing, they may dip down that this was 0:23:05.173 --> 0:23:07.253 a mistake, if you know, for whatever the reason they 0:23:07.293 --> 0:23:10.493 went on in the first place. But it's really difficult 0:23:10.533 --> 0:23:12.173 to admit that if you sort of state to your 0:23:12.213 --> 0:23:17.093 reputation got really famous in the media, et cetera. On 0:23:17.293 --> 0:23:21.733 saying one thing, it's pretty difficult to backtrack then and say, well, actually, 0:23:22.933 --> 0:23:26.613 pandemics aren't at big risk to humankind, and you know, 0:23:26.653 --> 0:23:29.213 we have much bigger things to deal with. COVID was 0:23:29.613 --> 0:23:32.653 a huge overreaction. We should have known better, and let's 0:23:32.853 --> 0:23:35.573 do better now that there's not many people doing that. 0:23:35.973 --> 0:23:38.573 Most of the noise among those people is that we 0:23:38.613 --> 0:23:44.333 should have locked down faster and more strongly, which it's 0:23:44.413 --> 0:23:47.093 essentially saying we should destroy the economy more for longer. 0:23:47.533 --> 0:23:50.693 There is no good evidence that lockdowns did anything except 0:23:50.813 --> 0:23:55.253 slightly slow transmission. So it is different perhaps in island states, 0:23:55.533 --> 0:23:58.773 where you know you could keep it out for longer, 0:23:58.813 --> 0:24:01.933 But now you haven't gained over the four years in 0:24:02.013 --> 0:24:05.453 terms of or cause mortality compared to other countries that 0:24:05.573 --> 0:24:09.373 didn't act in that way. So you're better off over 0:24:09.413 --> 0:24:13.813 the four years, and you have an economy now that 0:24:14.133 --> 0:24:16.493 makes you very vulnerable and is going to have a 0:24:16.573 --> 0:24:21.533 huge impact on your ability to manage your nation's health 0:24:21.573 --> 0:24:24.613 in the future. So I think there's not much doubt 0:24:24.693 --> 0:24:28.053 that it was probably a mistake. Even in New Zealand, 0:24:28.133 --> 0:24:31.613 where there appeared to be as an island, you could 0:24:31.773 --> 0:24:35.413 keep everyone out and sort of pretended the world didn't exist. 0:24:35.573 --> 0:24:38.053 But did I mention? And you wracked up a lot 0:24:38.093 --> 0:24:38.573 of problems? 0:24:38.933 --> 0:24:41.773 Did I mention? I? No, I didn't, And I don't 0:24:41.813 --> 0:24:43.853 think it was I don't think it was mentioned in 0:24:43.893 --> 0:24:47.693 the last conversation we had when you were here midyear. 0:24:48.053 --> 0:24:52.053 But they're still advertising for people to go get the JAB. 0:24:52.853 --> 0:24:55.973 Oh yeah, get updated, Get updated, Get updated. The signs 0:24:56.013 --> 0:24:56.853 are out the front of farmer. 0:24:58.533 --> 0:25:00.693 They're stood doing it in the US as well, from 0:25:00.733 --> 0:25:04.773 six months upwards here, for which there is zero evidence 0:25:04.933 --> 0:25:05.573 of benefit. 0:25:07.933 --> 0:25:11.373 Who who pray tell is responsible for that in the States. 0:25:12.013 --> 0:25:16.573 In the States, it's officially CDC, so they have their 0:25:16.613 --> 0:25:20.213 vaccine schedule for children, and from six months up you're 0:25:20.213 --> 0:25:23.413 expected to get a series of MR and a injection 0:25:23.613 --> 0:25:26.573 which they know will concentrate in the over eas of 0:25:26.613 --> 0:25:30.213 young girls and in the livers and adrenal glands of 0:25:30.293 --> 0:25:33.853 girls and boys, et cetera. And they know that healthy 0:25:33.893 --> 0:25:38.773 boys and girls and infants have almost near zero risk 0:25:38.813 --> 0:25:40.973 of dying of COVID sort of less than one million, 0:25:41.173 --> 0:25:43.533 So that there is no logic to any of this 0:25:44.253 --> 0:25:49.053 except the potential for profit and the sort of around 0:25:49.133 --> 0:25:51.733 that the sort of people who put their reputations want 0:25:51.773 --> 0:25:56.373 to preserve them, et cetera. So there's no public health 0:25:57.693 --> 0:26:01.013 rational public health basis that you can really follow to 0:26:01.213 --> 0:26:01.733 justify this. 0:26:02.373 --> 0:26:07.613 So the mRNA vaccine that accumulates in different parts of 0:26:07.813 --> 0:26:12.173 children's bodies does or can do how much damage. 0:26:12.173 --> 0:26:14.773 We don't know because we don't have long studies on 0:26:14.773 --> 0:26:18.053 this or even decent short term studies, so there's no 0:26:19.173 --> 0:26:23.413 even now there are no ongoing studies that they in adults, 0:26:23.453 --> 0:26:27.053 they after six months they lost the control group, so 0:26:27.253 --> 0:26:30.213 we can't compare, but we know the six months for 0:26:30.293 --> 0:26:34.213 the Maderna and Pisa trials there was Maderna there a 0:26:34.333 --> 0:26:36.453 course mortality was the same in the control group and 0:26:36.533 --> 0:26:40.573 the vaccinator group in Maderna. For Pisa there were more 0:26:40.613 --> 0:26:43.213 deaths in the vaccinator group than the control group, so 0:26:43.973 --> 0:26:48.253 it was no effect or negative at six months in adults, 0:26:48.653 --> 0:26:51.013