1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Kyta. I'm Susie Ordquitzt and for Chelsea Daniels. And this 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. It's estimated we spend a third of 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: our life at work, with the average worker clocking a 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: staggering ninety thousand hours in employment over a lifetime. COVID 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: lockdowns saw companies adapt to emotion flexible working practices, while 7 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: schemes like four day weeks have gained traction globally. Some 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: international companies, though, are pulling back or restricting employees from 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: working at home. Our one chief executive has gone as 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: far as to try and stop people from leaving the 11 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: building during work hours. So what is the best practice 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: and how do we adapt our workplaces for a changing 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: world today? On the Front Page, we are joined by 14 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: aut Associate professor and organizationals psychologist doctor Rachel Morrison to 15 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: discuss the changing workforce. Rachel, We've always had this nine 16 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: to five culture here in New Zealand, as it still 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: sits for purpose or is it actually counterproductive for some 18 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: people and if so why? 19 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: I think it's. 20 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 3: Become pretty apparent since the pandemic that there are lots 21 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 3: of alternate ways of working. 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 2: It worked really well for a lot of. 23 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: People to have the flexibility of working from home, and 24 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: then since the pandemic there has been a pretty slow 25 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 3: shift back into the office. Really, it has raised awareness 26 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 3: that suiting work and job designed individuals can be. 27 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Really beneficial to a love of people. 28 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 3: So no, I don't think it is necessarily fit for purpose, 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: but that does depend on the type of role that 30 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 3: people are fulfilling. 31 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: Recently, The Herald reported on chrono working being the next 32 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: big employment trend to come to New Zealand. Can you 33 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: tell us a bit about how that works. 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 3: My understanding of chrono working is that people will engage 35 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 3: in work at times of the day that suit them best. 36 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 3: So there's really robust research that has found that at 37 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: different times in people's lives, and also for different people, 38 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 3: various times of the day suit them better. So you've 39 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 3: got larks and ours. So generally you have people who 40 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 3: we think of as larks who like to get up 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 3: early and are really alert earlier in the day, and 42 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: who might find sitting in traffic from eight till nine, 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 3: for example, a real waste of time because they've been 44 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 3: up since sex and could be really productive in that time, 45 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 3: whereas you've also got ours who prefer a bit of 46 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 3: a sleep in and find themselves really productive late afternoon 47 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 3: or early evening. And if you can suit work to 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 3: suit people's most productive time, you're probably going to get 49 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 3: a lot more out of them. 50 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: I'm thinking working mums. What about teenagers and school start times? 51 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: Is that something we should be looking at? 52 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 3: So yeah, already there are quite a few schools which 53 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 3: have adopted later start times to suit teenagers. So there's 54 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 3: a real shift in early teen years for most children 55 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: or teenagers to work better with a bit of a 56 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: sleeping and they really struggle to get up early. 57 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: The shift is about two hours, so if you. 58 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: Had a nine o'clock bed time, for example, that would 59 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 3: shift to eleven and then you end up with kids 60 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: in sleep there. They still have to get up at 61 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 3: six thirty or seven in the morning to get to 62 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 3: school and that works really well for teenagers. 63 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: Do you think there's nine to five culture that we've 64 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: got here in New Zealand could be affecting our mental health? 65 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 3: What I would say is that having work hours or 66 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 3: work spaces that are perceived to be a good fit 67 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 3: to the way that you work and to the type 68 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 3: of person that you are generally has a really really 69 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 3: positive outcome. So we think of this as a person 70 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 3: environment fit and there are lots of things an organization 71 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: can do which are off and quite costless, which would 72 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: enhance the perception that you're fitting well. 73 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: With your work environment. 74 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: So that could be anything as simple as a comfortable 75 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 3: chair and a desk, aet the right height. All the 76 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: way through to believing or perceiving that the personality and values. 77 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: Of the organization are the same as your own. 78 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 3: Personality and values and those perceptions of fit is very 79 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 3: robust findings in almost all of the organizational psyche literature 80 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: that would say that when we have that perception of 81 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 3: a well fitting work environment, your mental health will improve, 82 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 3: your well being will improve, your productivity will improve, you'll 83 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 3: be more likely to stay with the organization. 84 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 2: And your job satisfaction will improve. 85 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: So anything an organization can do to enhance the perception 86 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: of a well fitting work environment will probably have good outcomes. 87 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: So some clear benefits there for individuals, but these different 88 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: ways of working could actually have flow on effects to 89 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: other parts of society too, no doubt. 90 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: So if you think about nine to five start times 91 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 3: and traffic congestion. If you could have start time staggered 92 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 3: through the day for people to suit them, but also 93 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 3: to suit the organization and to suit customers, then traffic 94 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: congestion would be lessened. 95 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: You know, rush hours might be a thing of the past. 96 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 4: What I think you're now seeing is people recognize that 97 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 4: the five day week isn't it the purpose for the 98 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 4: twenty first century? And whether it be our solution four 99 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: days or reduced tiles working or another, certainly, now I 100 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 4: think we've got a whole environment where people are questioning 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 4: how work is structured. 102 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: Remote working or flexible working hours have become a popular 103 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: thing in recent years since COVID. What research have you 104 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: seen around the benefits of this type of working. 105 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: So yeah, remote and hybrid working is generally really beneficial 106 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 3: in terms of things like work life balance and stress, 107 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 3: and it gives people a sense of control an agency 108 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 3: across their day. There is also, though quite robust research 109 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 3: that says that when we share space and time with others, 110 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: we are more likely to collaborate with them, We're more 111 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 3: likely to have positive workplace relationships, We're more likely to 112 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 3: have a feeling of inclusiveness and enhance cooperation so I 113 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 3: don't think that working entirely remotely as a working population 114 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 3: is necessarily feasible or functional for organizations. Really there needs 115 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 3: to be a happy medium, and if that is something 116 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: like chrono working, where everyone's expected to be in the 117 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 3: office by early afternoon, but some people come early and 118 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 3: some people stay late, then that's great. Or if it's 119 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: something like hybrid working, where everybody has one or two 120 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 3: days a week where they can feasibly work from home, 121 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 3: then that's great. I think mandating that people be in 122 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 3: the office at really set hours, and this is a 123 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 3: really genuine reason for it, is probably not going to 124 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: be very appeal for people who are job seeking. 125 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: There's recently been some pushback from employers though, to remote working, 126 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: with companies like Deloitte and PwC announcing new policies to 127 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: monitor their employees. Why is this and what do you 128 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: make of this change? 129 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 3: So intensely monitoring employees really suggest that the organizations don't 130 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 3: trust their workers. Whether you are closely monitoring your employees 131 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: or not, I don't think that there's going to be 132 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 3: a positive outcome. Feeling that you're not trusted is quite unpleasant, 133 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 3: and there are a lot of other things that you 134 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 3: can do as an organization to get genuine engagement from 135 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 3: employees other than just watching them closely. 136 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: So, if you think about things like meaningful work and opportunity. 137 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: For growth and improvement, for example, acquiring new skills, there 138 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: are elements of work that are intrinsically quite rewarding, and 139 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 3: building those features into work is a much better way 140 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: of getting people engaged than just them feeling monitored the 141 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 3: whole time. I think kind of alongside that is this 142 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 3: element of control and agency. So what the stress research 143 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 3: tells us is that the feeling of personal control and 144 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 3: agency is one of the biggest buffers to burn out 145 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: in stress. So feeling that you have control over the 146 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: way that you do your work, the hours that you 147 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 3: do it, the approach you take to work, it increases creativity, 148 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: increases productivity, and it decreases stress. Yeah, I would recommend 149 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 3: against intense monitoring of. 150 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: Employees speaking to that lack of trust and control. Last month, 151 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: a Kiwi mining boss in Australia said he didn't want 152 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: his workers to go out for coffee because they would 153 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: be less productive. Do workers really get more done when 154 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: they chain to their desks? 155 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 3: I'm not an employment law expert, but I'm pretty sure 156 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 3: that's not actually even legal, because when people are on 157 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: their own time, I don't think that organizations can or 158 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: should control. 159 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 2: Where they go. 160 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 3: But I think what his kind of angle was about 161 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: was that he was everything that they would need at work. 162 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 3: So there's coffee machines at work, and there was lunch 163 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: provided and a creation on campus on site so that 164 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: people could drop their kids and never have to leave. 165 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 3: So there are some really genuinely appealing things about that 166 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: for some workers, and I think this again comes down 167 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 3: to that notion of fit and individual differences. There definitely 168 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 3: will be some people who find that situation pretty appealing 169 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 3: that they can just turn up to work and everything's 170 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: there for them. They can just be there for the 171 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: whole eight nine hours and then leave with the convenience 172 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 3: of not having to go outside for food or coffee. 173 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: The other side to that is removing control and agency. Again, 174 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 3: it's removing the opportunity for people to make choices about 175 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: how they spend their own leisure time and how they 176 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 3: spend their day, and I think long term that. 177 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: Would be a pretty abusive work experience. 178 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: How should employers be responding to these ideas being pitched 179 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: about new ways of working. 180 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 2: There are a lot. 181 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 3: Of kind of new fads that seem to be coming out, 182 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 3: and that it's tricky sometimes as an organization or an 183 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 3: employer to figure out which ones are going to be 184 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 3: truly valuable. 185 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: I think that there are some. 186 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: Which are really evidence based, and I would say that 187 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 3: something like chrono working would be one of those where 188 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 3: there is decades of robust evidence that does show that 189 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 3: some people are more productive in the morning and other 190 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: people are less productive in the morning. 191 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: So something like that within kind of reason where. 192 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 3: You do still have an expectation caps for most people 193 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 3: to be on site in particular times if working together 194 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 3: as part of your role is really reasonable. 195 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 2: I think mandating that people never leave your. 196 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 3: Offers for an entire day is probably quite unreasonable. But 197 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: that said, people will drift in and out of organizations 198 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 3: that fit or don't fit. So there's theory called selection attrition, 199 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: which basically says that organizations will select workers who they 200 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 3: think will fit the role. Workers will apply for jobs 201 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 3: that they think suit them, so that's selection and attraction. 202 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 3: But then if you find that that fit isn't really there, 203 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 3: you have attrition. People will leave, so you do tend 204 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 3: to find that over time people self select into organizations 205 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: that suit them, that organizations will make an effort to 206 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: select workers who they think will suit and people that 207 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 3: aren't fitting will leave, So you may end up finding 208 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 3: that there will be workers. Maybe you know mothers of 209 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 3: small children who find that a crash on site is 210 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: worth more to them than the choice of going out 211 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 3: for lunch and will stay there at least for the 212 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 3: time that that's convenient for them. So again, I just 213 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: think it's really important to acknowledge that there are individual differences. 214 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 3: You're never going to have a situation where a way 215 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: of working is going. 216 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: To suit all or even most people. 217 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 3: So offering choices and being flexible to the people that 218 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 3: work within your organization is usually going to be the 219 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 3: best way of having increased well being and productivity. 220 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: In your opinion, Could employers be excluding a massive pool 221 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 1: of talent if they aren't open to these new ways 222 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: of working. 223 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: Certainly when you have a whole population of workers, So 224 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: for example, parents of young children will be a really 225 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 3: good example who aren't necessarily work forty fifty hour weeks 226 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 3: and be at the office by seven thirty because they've 227 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 3: got to get their kids to school, or they're going 228 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 3: to pick them up, or they just simply want to 229 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 3: spend more time with their children, which is a valuable 230 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: way of spending your time as well. Having strict mandates 231 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: of forty fifty hour work weeks is basically excluding that 232 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 3: really really valuable talent from. 233 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: The pool of people who you can recruit from. So 234 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 2: including things like job sharing. 235 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 3: And flex time and part time work within an organization 236 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 3: is a really good way of making sure that can 237 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 3: kind of get the best people in your organization as 238 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 3: opposed to just the most you know, the people that 239 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: have the most hours free. 240 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 5: I think we have seen this kind of massive change, 241 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 5: you know, and we've just experienced things where we think, gosh, 242 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 5: I can do my job better from home. I personally 243 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 5: like a mixture of both. I'm way more productive at home. 244 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 5: But it's also way better to make social interactions in 245 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 5: person than it is. You know, the whole zoom call 246 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 5: thing we are smiling at people pales in comparison to 247 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 5: real life. 248 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: Some of these ways of working, though, require a high 249 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: level of trust from organizations. Our boss is right to 250 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: be wary of some of these concepts. 251 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 3: I mean, so so before I think that there will 252 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 3: always be people who try and get out of, you know, 253 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 3: doing difficult. 254 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: Or onerous elements of their work. 255 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 3: I think having good performance management processes within an organization 256 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: is a much more effective way of man than just 257 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 3: watching people and insisting that they'd be at work. There's 258 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 3: a little saying which is what gets rewarded gets repeated, 259 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 3: and I think organizations need to be really careful. 260 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,119 Speaker 2: About what it is that they're rewarding. 261 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 3: And an organization that is ensuring that people be physically 262 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 3: present is rewarding presentism. 263 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: It's rewarding people to just be at work. 264 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 6: If instead you reward results and your reward achievements, it 265 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 6: doesn't really matter how long those things take or where 266 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 6: those activities take place. 267 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 2: They will be the things that get repeated. 268 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: And I think that that's much more valuable to an 269 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 3: organization than just having someone be in one physical location. 270 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: Rachil, you've probably seen the headlines about the huge numbers 271 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: of Kiwis who are leaving New Zealand. Isn't it a 272 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: good idea for employers here to be adaptable so they 273 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: can keep talent in this country. 274 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 3: I think a lot of the reason a lot of 275 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: the people are leaving because of higher pay, And there 276 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 3: are a lot of people who value other parts of 277 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: their work life more than money. Once you paid somebody enough, 278 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: generally all the other things about work become much more salient. 279 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 3: So what that does kind of mean is that if 280 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 3: an organization can't afford to pay more and more and 281 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 3: more to keep employees, they can change policy in a 282 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: way that doesn't cost the organization anything but still adds 283 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 3: value to workers. So things like, for example, the ability 284 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 3: to start late and finish late might be more valuable 285 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 3: to someone than earning an extra you know, five or 286 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: ten thousand a year that they could get in Australia. 287 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: And these are the types of things that maybe don't 288 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: necessarily cost. 289 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: The organization anything. 290 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:52,119 Speaker 3: Also, things like, you know, the ability to acquire new skills, 291 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: to move forward in your career, to have a wide 292 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: variety of tasks. 293 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: In your job. 294 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 3: If organizations can kind of create ways that those parts 295 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: of work are offered to those people that want it, 296 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: then that could be a benefit and also not necessarily 297 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: cost the organization. 298 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: Rachel, when I started working a number of years ago, 299 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: there was a certain way we were expected to work. 300 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: We're already seeing now that gen Z wants to work differently. 301 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: They're a bit anti shift work. When my children into 302 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: the workforce, how might things have changed. 303 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: Further, I'm always a bit reluctant to make sweeping generalizations 304 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 3: about generations, because what we really do know is that 305 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 3: twenty three year olds are always pretty similar to other 306 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 3: twenty three year olds. 307 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: So I'm generation X. 308 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 3: I remember when I was in my twenties, the boomers 309 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: would kind of roll their eyes and say that we're 310 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: a bit directionless, and it's exactly the same, I think 311 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: is what people who are in their fifties now are 312 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 3: talking about when they look at twenty three year olds. 313 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 3: You know, there are still people who quite like or 314 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 3: expect an office or even just an office sheets one 315 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 3: or two people. I think that they really, whether we 316 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: like it or not, is disappearing. 317 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 2: There are schools now. 318 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 3: My own children at a school which is completely open plan, 319 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 3: and that really is setting them up probably better than 320 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 3: small classrooms, which again I don't want to kind of 321 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 3: stray from my laying too much, but I think small 322 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 3: classrooms probably. 323 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 2: Are beneficial to more children. 324 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 3: But being in a big, open plan space is setting 325 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 3: these kids up for working in the real world when 326 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 3: they do come into the workforce, because you know, quiet 327 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: officers are probably going to be quite rare, So there 328 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 3: are going to be sort of ways of working that 329 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 3: will shift through these generations. 330 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: It's impossible to know, but I do think. 331 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: That artificial intelligence is going to be the biggest disruptor 332 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 3: for this next generation. 333 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: Just finally, what would your message be to employers about 334 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: the need to be open to different ways of working? 335 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: In a nutshell, I suppose. 336 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 3: In a nutshell it would be to make sure that 337 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 3: your responsive to the individual needs of workers. That there 338 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 3: isn't going to be a policy that's going to fit everybody, 339 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 3: and that being able to offer a smallers board of 340 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 3: job design to suit as many people as possible will 341 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: be the best way of keeping in value and staff. 342 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Rachel. That's it for this episode 343 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: of The Front Page. You can read more about today's 344 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at Inzet Herald dot co 345 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 1: dot enzet. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sells. 346 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: Patty Fox is a sound engineer. I'm Susie Nordquist. Subscribe 347 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get 348 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another look 349 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: behind the headlines.