1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,972 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B. 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,733 --> 00:00:20,933 Speaker 2: Samara Tagav She is an Iranian New Zealander ambarrister. She's 4 00:00:20,933 --> 00:00:22,932 Speaker 2: written an in depth opinion piece in The Herald Today 5 00:00:22,933 --> 00:00:26,053 Speaker 2: criticizing Helen Clark for calling the government's response to the 6 00:00:26,093 --> 00:00:30,173 Speaker 2: Iran conflict disgraceful, and Samara joins us on the show 7 00:00:30,293 --> 00:00:32,253 Speaker 2: right now. Samara, very good afternoon. 8 00:00:31,933 --> 00:00:34,133 Speaker 3: To you, Good afternoon to you guys as well. Thank 9 00:00:34,133 --> 00:00:34,772 Speaker 3: you for having me. 10 00:00:35,213 --> 00:00:38,853 Speaker 4: We've just heard some breaking news. What does this announcement 11 00:00:38,893 --> 00:00:41,293 Speaker 4: of a new leader as we've just heard mean for 12 00:00:41,333 --> 00:00:42,812 Speaker 4: the situation in Iran? 13 00:00:43,092 --> 00:00:45,653 Speaker 3: Well, from our point of view, not much really. We 14 00:00:46,213 --> 00:00:48,893 Speaker 3: think he will probably be eliminated in the next few hours, 15 00:00:48,893 --> 00:00:52,053 Speaker 3: so he might have a very short time frame in 16 00:00:52,132 --> 00:00:53,092 Speaker 3: terms of being a leader. 17 00:00:53,653 --> 00:00:56,813 Speaker 4: You've lived under the Iranian regime, tell us what it's 18 00:00:57,013 --> 00:00:59,653 Speaker 4: like and how that played out for you personally. 19 00:00:59,933 --> 00:01:02,213 Speaker 3: Look, yes, I have. I have lived in Iran most 20 00:01:02,253 --> 00:01:06,333 Speaker 3: of my adult life. I was very active politically when 21 00:01:06,453 --> 00:01:10,093 Speaker 3: I went to university there, and I witness probably over 22 00:01:10,333 --> 00:01:14,973 Speaker 3: forty to forty five hanging stoning, and I was very 23 00:01:15,013 --> 00:01:19,813 Speaker 3: involved with protesting against the death penalty and the stoning 24 00:01:20,053 --> 00:01:26,292 Speaker 3: and a few other very very terrible, terrible types of penalties. 25 00:01:26,932 --> 00:01:29,812 Speaker 3: I was arrested, I was put in prison. I've been 26 00:01:29,893 --> 00:01:35,173 Speaker 3: sentenced to lashing, and I remember that they ordered ninety lashes. 27 00:01:35,292 --> 00:01:38,092 Speaker 3: I ended up getting only forty because the guy who 28 00:01:38,173 --> 00:01:41,533 Speaker 3: was doing it was doing one, was counting one as three, 29 00:01:41,973 --> 00:01:46,373 Speaker 3: so he was actually quite nice. So this is basically 30 00:01:46,773 --> 00:01:50,053 Speaker 3: my background, and as a very young lawyer at the 31 00:01:50,053 --> 00:01:52,533 Speaker 3: age of twenty one or twenty two, when you're standing 32 00:01:52,573 --> 00:01:55,013 Speaker 3: in prison at four in the morning, because they hang 33 00:01:55,093 --> 00:01:59,253 Speaker 3: people to execute people very early in the morning, and 34 00:01:59,293 --> 00:02:01,533 Speaker 3: as a lawyer, as a criminal lawyer, you have to 35 00:02:01,533 --> 00:02:04,333 Speaker 3: be there to witness it. So it's part of your 36 00:02:04,373 --> 00:02:07,453 Speaker 3: obligations as a lawyer. So these are the things that 37 00:02:07,493 --> 00:02:10,253 Speaker 3: I have seen with my two eyes, as well as 38 00:02:10,293 --> 00:02:13,733 Speaker 3: having friends that I have lost because they've been tortured, 39 00:02:13,893 --> 00:02:16,893 Speaker 3: they've been in prison, and most political prisoners they end 40 00:02:16,972 --> 00:02:20,132 Speaker 3: up taking their lives when they actually are released because 41 00:02:20,573 --> 00:02:24,333 Speaker 3: anything you can think of would happen to them in prison. 42 00:02:25,413 --> 00:02:27,333 Speaker 3: So yeah, that's a bit of a background for you. 43 00:02:27,972 --> 00:02:31,373 Speaker 4: Talk to us about the anger you feel after being lashed. 44 00:02:31,413 --> 00:02:33,173 Speaker 4: I mean, this may sound like a trite thing to say, 45 00:02:33,213 --> 00:02:35,613 Speaker 4: but New Zealanders get angry when they get given a 46 00:02:35,613 --> 00:02:39,012 Speaker 4: parking ticket. I can only imagine how that affects your 47 00:02:39,173 --> 00:02:42,613 Speaker 4: very soul, being lashed by your government by something that 48 00:02:42,813 --> 00:02:45,253 Speaker 4: for something that is clearly not wrong. 49 00:02:45,853 --> 00:02:52,613 Speaker 3: It's very difficult guys to kind of describe describe the feeling. 50 00:02:52,893 --> 00:02:55,933 Speaker 3: Interestingly enough, at the time, it was a feeling of shame. 51 00:02:56,493 --> 00:03:02,093 Speaker 3: Although the reason that I got that sentence was because 52 00:03:02,133 --> 00:03:04,333 Speaker 3: of the protest. It was for nothing else, because you 53 00:03:04,333 --> 00:03:07,693 Speaker 3: also get lashing for different types of crime, including drinking alcohol, 54 00:03:07,773 --> 00:03:10,213 Speaker 3: by the way, so that was not it. It was 55 00:03:10,213 --> 00:03:12,733 Speaker 3: a feeling of shame because I felt that this is 56 00:03:12,773 --> 00:03:16,333 Speaker 3: something that my father had to now deal with, and 57 00:03:16,613 --> 00:03:19,373 Speaker 3: it was something that I did recover from physically and 58 00:03:19,532 --> 00:03:21,733 Speaker 3: mentally to an extent. But I think my father never 59 00:03:21,773 --> 00:03:24,453 Speaker 3: recovered from that because you can imagine as a father, 60 00:03:24,532 --> 00:03:26,613 Speaker 3: he wasn't in Iran at the time. He was actually 61 00:03:26,972 --> 00:03:31,733 Speaker 3: overseas in Boston from memory, and he had to come 62 00:03:31,773 --> 00:03:37,653 Speaker 3: back to the aftermath. So it was at the time 63 00:03:37,693 --> 00:03:40,493 Speaker 3: a feeling of shame, but it does turn into anger 64 00:03:40,533 --> 00:03:45,053 Speaker 3: after a few after a few years usually, But I 65 00:03:45,093 --> 00:03:47,733 Speaker 3: did recover from that and that's probably I always say 66 00:03:47,733 --> 00:03:50,293 Speaker 3: what doesn't kill you make you stronger, And I think 67 00:03:50,333 --> 00:03:54,452 Speaker 3: that's why I get very very annoyed when I see 68 00:03:54,893 --> 00:03:58,573 Speaker 3: comments such as what Helen Clark made the other day, 69 00:03:58,613 --> 00:04:00,973 Speaker 3: because it makes me feel that her outrage is really 70 00:04:00,973 --> 00:04:04,493 Speaker 3: peck and truth. She's really loud on some sovereignties and 71 00:04:04,573 --> 00:04:08,373 Speaker 3: whisper quiet on the terror that has been going on 72 00:04:08,453 --> 00:04:12,133 Speaker 3: in Iran. That's that actually makes me more angry. Yeah. 73 00:04:12,373 --> 00:04:15,373 Speaker 4: So many people listening, myself included, that live in the 74 00:04:15,373 --> 00:04:18,333 Speaker 4: safety of New Zealand can't even imagine what you're describing. 75 00:04:18,333 --> 00:04:21,333 Speaker 4: From your perspective or from your father's perspective. 76 00:04:22,173 --> 00:04:23,093 Speaker 2: I can't comprehend it. 77 00:04:23,173 --> 00:04:26,773 Speaker 4: Yeah. So going back to and so, I'm so sorry 78 00:04:26,853 --> 00:04:28,973 Speaker 4: that that that that happened to your family and you. 79 00:04:29,333 --> 00:04:34,493 Speaker 4: But going back to Helen Clark, critics like she argues 80 00:04:34,573 --> 00:04:38,493 Speaker 4: that that the strikes breach international law. Why do you 81 00:04:38,533 --> 00:04:41,413 Speaker 4: disagree with disagree with her on this on when it 82 00:04:41,413 --> 00:04:42,093 Speaker 4: comes to Iran. 83 00:04:43,093 --> 00:04:46,293 Speaker 3: Look, she's talking about international law and talking about that 84 00:04:46,333 --> 00:04:49,293 Speaker 3: there was no eminent threat and it was illegal under 85 00:04:49,293 --> 00:04:52,453 Speaker 3: the UN Charter. I don't understand what her definition of 86 00:04:52,533 --> 00:04:55,573 Speaker 3: eminent is Iran at the moment they have four hundred 87 00:04:55,613 --> 00:05:00,493 Speaker 3: and forty kilograms of near weapons grade uranium. They've been 88 00:05:00,533 --> 00:05:05,093 Speaker 3: sending missiles on allies proxies, killing people worldwide. That's the 89 00:05:05,213 --> 00:05:08,533 Speaker 3: threat building for years and years and years. In the 90 00:05:08,533 --> 00:05:11,973 Speaker 3: past forty seven years. They have tried negotiations, they have 91 00:05:12,093 --> 00:05:16,653 Speaker 3: tried sanctions, they have tried uan resolutions. None of that worked. 92 00:05:16,813 --> 00:05:20,653 Speaker 3: So and waiting for a mushroom cloud would have cost millions. 93 00:05:20,693 --> 00:05:23,173 Speaker 3: And I'm not talking about millions of dollars. I'm talking 94 00:05:23,213 --> 00:05:27,653 Speaker 3: about millions of lives being lost. You cannot expect the 95 00:05:27,773 --> 00:05:31,533 Speaker 3: USA to wait for a regime such as Iran the 96 00:05:31,573 --> 00:05:37,533 Speaker 3: IIGC to attack first before you actually do anything. So, 97 00:05:38,933 --> 00:05:44,733 Speaker 3: and to be honest, sovereignty isn't sacred when it's a 98 00:05:44,773 --> 00:05:49,453 Speaker 3: shield for slaughter. International law must bend to save lives. 99 00:05:49,533 --> 00:05:53,053 Speaker 3: It has happened before. It's not absolute. And she should 100 00:05:53,093 --> 00:05:55,453 Speaker 3: know better than this because we have a responsibility to 101 00:05:55,493 --> 00:06:00,133 Speaker 3: protect and they have even the UN Charter allow self defense. 102 00:06:00,693 --> 00:06:06,573 Speaker 3: So the buildup of this proxy uranium is a clear threat. 103 00:06:07,053 --> 00:06:11,653 Speaker 3: And Clark's breach clan ignores these presidents. I would actually 104 00:06:11,813 --> 00:06:13,733 Speaker 3: like to sit with her and have a debate with her. 105 00:06:14,613 --> 00:06:16,013 Speaker 3: Well you she agrees to do it. 106 00:06:16,253 --> 00:06:19,613 Speaker 4: If I understand right that you did discuss after was 107 00:06:19,613 --> 00:06:23,213 Speaker 4: it a speech at aut You did discuss briefly, briefly 108 00:06:23,253 --> 00:06:25,493 Speaker 4: face to face with Helen Clark. So what did she 109 00:06:25,533 --> 00:06:28,413 Speaker 4: say to your concerns when when you talk to her 110 00:06:28,453 --> 00:06:29,013 Speaker 4: face to face? 111 00:06:29,853 --> 00:06:33,133 Speaker 3: Well, both her and Kenneth Rath, who were giving these 112 00:06:33,493 --> 00:06:37,653 Speaker 3: this human rights interview, they said. This was the first 113 00:06:37,693 --> 00:06:40,613 Speaker 3: thing they said, which just made me laugh. They said, well, 114 00:06:40,693 --> 00:06:44,613 Speaker 3: Iran refused to join the International Criminal Court. I mean, 115 00:06:44,813 --> 00:06:47,853 Speaker 3: are you kidding me? Of course, the Ayatollah doesn't want 116 00:06:47,853 --> 00:06:51,333 Speaker 3: to be prosecuted by the International Criminal Court, So there 117 00:06:51,413 --> 00:06:55,373 Speaker 3: is absolutely nothing they said. They That's what I said 118 00:06:55,373 --> 00:06:58,213 Speaker 3: in my article. They talked about voting as if voting 119 00:06:58,333 --> 00:07:01,493 Speaker 3: means anything in Iran. Basically, they didn't give us any answer. 120 00:07:01,653 --> 00:07:04,573 Speaker 2: We are joined by Samira Tagarva. She is an Iranian 121 00:07:04,573 --> 00:07:07,813 Speaker 2: New Zealander embarrassed and she's written an in depth opinion 122 00:07:07,853 --> 00:07:10,533 Speaker 2: piece about the Iranian conflict in the Herald Today. Samarah, 123 00:07:10,613 --> 00:07:13,413 Speaker 2: thank you again for your time, my pleasure. 124 00:07:14,053 --> 00:07:17,813 Speaker 4: Now, air strikes are one thing, but will they lead 125 00:07:17,893 --> 00:07:21,053 Speaker 4: to actual reform and regime change in our own That. 126 00:07:21,133 --> 00:07:24,813 Speaker 3: Is a difficult question to answer. Okay, and I can't 127 00:07:24,813 --> 00:07:28,413 Speaker 3: give it an answer yes or no, because these are strikes, 128 00:07:28,453 --> 00:07:32,733 Speaker 3: of course are not perfect. Nobody wanted war, but imagine 129 00:07:32,773 --> 00:07:37,733 Speaker 3: how desperate a country would get that they ask another 130 00:07:37,813 --> 00:07:41,653 Speaker 3: country to intervene. Okay, So that shows the mere desperation 131 00:07:42,133 --> 00:07:44,893 Speaker 3: of the Iranians at the moment. So what I can 132 00:07:45,013 --> 00:07:47,453 Speaker 3: say is that their strikes aren't perfect, but they will 133 00:07:47,493 --> 00:07:51,133 Speaker 3: weaken the IIGC, the engine that is funding his bellah 134 00:07:51,333 --> 00:07:55,573 Speaker 3: Hamas who thies and causing global terror. So they have 135 00:07:55,773 --> 00:07:59,333 Speaker 3: so far eliminated some of the high Commanders in chief 136 00:07:59,453 --> 00:08:03,573 Speaker 3: in terms of the IIGC members, So it's going to 137 00:08:03,653 --> 00:08:07,773 Speaker 3: be it's going to definitely make a difference. It's the 138 00:08:07,813 --> 00:08:11,573 Speaker 3: first time in decades that Iranians can see a crack 139 00:08:11,613 --> 00:08:15,813 Speaker 3: in the Molas grip. So it's definitely not an escalator. 140 00:08:15,813 --> 00:08:17,613 Speaker 3: That's not an escalation that's hope for us. 141 00:08:18,213 --> 00:08:22,053 Speaker 2: Really, to most Iranians, Samira, does it matter that those 142 00:08:22,133 --> 00:08:24,813 Speaker 2: who have come in the US and Israel, even if 143 00:08:24,853 --> 00:08:28,333 Speaker 2: they've got ulterior motives to the strikes, does that matter 144 00:08:28,373 --> 00:08:30,733 Speaker 2: to the people of Iran At the stage. 145 00:08:31,253 --> 00:08:35,493 Speaker 3: Majority of people, it does not matter at all, whatever 146 00:08:36,133 --> 00:08:39,893 Speaker 3: Autarian motive. The only ulterior motive that they have is 147 00:08:39,973 --> 00:08:44,733 Speaker 3: just to protect the world globally from the IIGC. That's 148 00:08:44,813 --> 00:08:46,133 Speaker 3: not a bad motive in my view. 149 00:08:47,372 --> 00:08:51,133 Speaker 4: So if the regime, the head's knocked off it, what 150 00:08:51,293 --> 00:08:55,573 Speaker 4: happens next, what factions are at play and who could 151 00:08:55,612 --> 00:08:57,493 Speaker 4: come through? Who do you see is the players that 152 00:08:57,533 --> 00:08:59,813 Speaker 4: could come through and make a better future for the 153 00:08:59,813 --> 00:09:00,613 Speaker 4: Iranian people. 154 00:09:01,413 --> 00:09:04,733 Speaker 3: Look, the majority of Iranians inside Aroun and outside Iran 155 00:09:04,852 --> 00:09:08,853 Speaker 3: have accepted and been shouting the crown Razapala his name 156 00:09:09,372 --> 00:09:11,933 Speaker 3: for the past for the past few months. So they 157 00:09:11,933 --> 00:09:15,373 Speaker 3: have accepted, they have accepted him as a transitional leader. 158 00:09:16,132 --> 00:09:19,573 Speaker 3: He does have a very three stages, very clear three 159 00:09:19,612 --> 00:09:23,492 Speaker 3: stages plan in terms of hard to get Iran into 160 00:09:23,492 --> 00:09:29,133 Speaker 3: a secular, democratic society. He does believe in referendum and 161 00:09:29,252 --> 00:09:31,813 Speaker 3: he wants the people of Iran to decide for the 162 00:09:31,813 --> 00:09:36,732 Speaker 3: people of Iran. So he's the only alternative that the 163 00:09:36,773 --> 00:09:39,893 Speaker 3: majority of Iranians would see at the moment inside and 164 00:09:39,933 --> 00:09:42,933 Speaker 3: outside Iran. He's got a good team behind him. There 165 00:09:42,973 --> 00:09:47,213 Speaker 3: will be very very capable people within Iran who can 166 00:09:47,453 --> 00:09:50,053 Speaker 3: join him in a system. Some of them are still 167 00:09:50,093 --> 00:09:53,573 Speaker 3: in prison unfortunately, but he's the only one we can 168 00:09:53,653 --> 00:09:56,693 Speaker 3: see that would turn Iran into a democratic society. 169 00:09:56,732 --> 00:09:59,652 Speaker 2: At the moment, Samira, thank you very much for joining 170 00:09:59,732 --> 00:10:03,053 Speaker 2: us this afternoon. Really appreciate your time and your experiences, 171 00:10:03,093 --> 00:10:05,213 Speaker 2: and hopefully we will speak to you in the next 172 00:10:05,252 --> 00:10:06,133 Speaker 2: few days and weeks. 173 00:10:06,492 --> 00:10:07,492 Speaker 3: My absolute pleasure. 174 00:10:07,573 --> 00:10:09,172 Speaker 2: You guys have a good as now you two. That 175 00:10:09,333 --> 00:10:12,892 Speaker 2: is Samira Takavai. She is an Iranian New Zealander embarrassed 176 00:10:13,053 --> 00:10:15,652 Speaker 2: and she's written an opinion piece in the Heralds and 177 00:10:15,773 --> 00:10:17,132 Speaker 2: it's well worth a read. 178 00:10:17,813 --> 00:10:20,453 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks at b listen live on 179 00:10:20,533 --> 00:10:23,492 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 180 00:10:23,533 --> 00:10:26,132 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.