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Speaker 1: Kielda.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast.

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Speaker 1: Presented by the New Zealand Herald.

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Speaker 2: The government has announced new restrictions for beneficiaries. Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: Christopher Luxen and Social Development Minister Louise Upston this week

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Speaker 2: announced a new traffic light system that comes with harsher

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Speaker 2: penalties for those who don't meet their obligations to attend

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Speaker 2: meetings and.

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Speaker 1: Look for work. But what exactly do those.

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Speaker 2: Sanctions mean and why is national making this a priority now?

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Speaker 2: Today on the front Page ends at Herald, political journalist

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Speaker 2: Julia Gable joins us to explain this new traffic light system. Julia,

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Speaker 2: can you take us through the three stages of the

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Speaker 2: new beneficiary traffic light system?

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Speaker 3: Yes, sure, cure to chuse. So on Monday, the government

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Speaker 3: announced this new traffic light system for people on the

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Speaker 3: benefit and so beneficiaries with work obligations. So that's people

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Speaker 3: who are required by the Ministry of Social Development to

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Speaker 3: be actively looking or preparing for work are included in

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Speaker 3: this new traffic light system. So there's three colors, and

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Speaker 3: a person's color within the scheme depends on their compliance

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Speaker 3: with their obligations. So there's Green. Beneficiaries on Green are

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Speaker 3: complying with their obligations. There's orange, and those recipients have

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Speaker 3: received either their first or second obligation breach and they

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Speaker 3: don't have a good reason for the transgression. They then

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Speaker 3: have five working days to contact the Ministry of Social

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Speaker 3: Development to discuss their breach, and if they successfully dispute

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Speaker 3: that obligation failure, then that original decision is overturned and

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Speaker 3: they can go back to green. Otherwise, if they haven't

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Speaker 3: done that successfully and they don't recomply within those five

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Speaker 3: working days, they move to red. Now under red, that

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Speaker 3: is when someone is actioned. So this could include their

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Speaker 3: benefit being reduced or stopped, but it can also include

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Speaker 3: from next year, these new sanctions which the government announced

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Speaker 3: on Monday, which will apply to certain benefit recipients.

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Speaker 1: What kind of sanctions are those.

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Speaker 3: They're called non financial sanctions, and they'refore people who have

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Speaker 3: dependent children or are in case management and they're facing

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Speaker 3: their first obligation breach, so just for certain beneficiaries, and

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Speaker 3: they include the new money management sanction. So this is

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Speaker 3: when half of a person's benefit goes onto an electronic

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Speaker 3: payment card and that money on that card can only

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Speaker 3: be used at approved stores to purchase essentials. And when

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Speaker 3: Minister Upstin, the Social Development Minister, announced it on Monday,

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Speaker 3: she described this management card as giving people access to

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Speaker 3: the same amount of money, but with less freedoms. She

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Speaker 3: kind of presented it as a better option than completely

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Speaker 3: removing half of someone's benefit. And there's also the second

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Speaker 3: new sanction coming up next year, which is the community

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Speaker 3: Work Experience section, and this will require people to find

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Speaker 3: in complete work experience at a community organization before that

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Speaker 3: sanction is lifted. And it was also said, you know

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Speaker 3: that during this time when these beneficiaries are on these

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Speaker 3: red sections, they're not actually able to access hardship persistence either,

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Speaker 3: which are kind of those one off payments for emergency

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Speaker 3: expenses like health or betting.

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Speaker 4: Sanctions encourage motivation for a job seeker to get out

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Speaker 4: there and look for work. And I've heard the concerns

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Speaker 4: that people have raised with me about what it might

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Speaker 4: mean for a household where there are children. Instead of

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Speaker 4: going straight to a reduction of their benefit, where are

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Speaker 4: saying you get the same amount of benefit, just less freedoms.

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Speaker 4: It's about the consequence of them not fulfilling their obligations.

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Speaker 1: What other changes are coming through.

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Speaker 3: So there's other changes that are coming which include the

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Speaker 3: amount of time that an obligation failure stays on a

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Speaker 3: person's record. So currently that failure is marked against a

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Speaker 3: person on their record for twelve months, but Minister Epston

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Speaker 3: announced on Monday that that time period is actually going

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Speaker 3: to double and she said that this would make it

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Speaker 3: more likely that a person's benefit would be canceled if

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Speaker 3: they continue to not meet their obligations. Also, from next year,

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Speaker 3: job seeker recipients will need to reapply for the benefit

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Speaker 3: every six months. They will also need to create a

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Speaker 3: job seeker profile which includes details about their work experience,

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Speaker 3: their job preferences and job choices, and their qualifications before

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Speaker 3: they're granted their benefit.

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Speaker 2: What justification did the Prime Minister and Upston give for

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Speaker 2: this decision?

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Speaker 3: So when Minister Abston announced this new scheme, she said,

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Speaker 3: you know there are responsibilities that come with having a benefit,

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Speaker 3: and there will be no more excuses for job jobzigers

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Speaker 3: not knowing what those responsibilities are. And she touted this

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Speaker 3: traffic light system as a way of making it crystal

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Speaker 3: clear to benefit recipients as to what those responsibilities and

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Speaker 3: opplications are. She described the welfare system as always being

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Speaker 3: a safety net that catches people when they fall, but

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Speaker 3: had become in the past few years a drag net

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Speaker 3: that had captured too many people who can work and

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Speaker 3: allow them to, as she said, languish on job seeker support.

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Speaker 5: Statz Enz revealing today in the March quarter, the unemployment

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Speaker 5: rate has risen from four point four percent to four

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Speaker 5: point six percent. Looking at the year to June, the

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Speaker 5: youth rate for fifteen to nineteen year olds has increased

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Speaker 5: from a touch over fifteen percent to close to twenty

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Speaker 5: one percent.

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Speaker 6: Overall.

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Speaker 5: Over the past year, the number of people out of

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Speaker 5: work has jumped from thirty three thousand to one hundred

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Speaker 5: and forty three thousand, and that figure includes more Mari

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Speaker 5: now jobless, the rate increasing from just over seven percent

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Speaker 5: a year ago to more than nine percent.

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Speaker 1: Is there any data to support their.

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Speaker 2: Claims that benefits are in fact a dragnet and allowed

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Speaker 2: people to languish on the job seeker benefit.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, and I'm not sure whether the data

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Speaker 3: would support those words or those claims or not. But

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Speaker 3: what some of the data does show and reporting by

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Speaker 3: my colleague Thomas Coglin who's done that recently, shows that

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Speaker 3: the number of people on a benefit did reach a

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Speaker 3: new record in the June quarter, and with about three

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Speaker 3: one hundred and eighty one thousand people, or about eleven

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Speaker 3: point nine percent of the working age population receiving a benefit,

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Speaker 3: and just looking at those figures now, for that June

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four quarter, there was about one hundred and

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Speaker 3: ninety six thousand people receiving the job Seeker Support benefit

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Speaker 3: payment as well.

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Speaker 2: How have the opposition parties and those that support people

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Speaker 2: struggling financially responded to these changes.

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Speaker 3: They've really come out strong. You know, the Labor Party,

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Speaker 3: the Greens and other advocacy groups have just slammed this announcement,

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Speaker 3: just saying it's going to do more harm than good

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Speaker 3: and it's not going to do the number one job

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Speaker 3: of supporting people to get back into work.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: Labor described it as benefit bashing. The Greens have said that,

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Speaker 3: you know, these are just cruel policies that are hurting

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Speaker 3: people in poverty who really need support. In groups like

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Speaker 3: Auckland Action against Poverty have said that the sanctions just

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Speaker 3: won't work and they will just add more stress to

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Speaker 3: people who are already living in really really stressful situations.

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Speaker 5: Benefit's really hard to survive on and people's experiences punishment.

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Speaker 3: You start talking about sanctions, you start talking about.

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Speaker 5: Cutting half of the measly amount of people get it

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Speaker 5: sounds like bunishment.

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Speaker 1: More than fifty percent of people on benefit have a

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Speaker 1: health condition.

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Speaker 3: Lots of people have come on to benefit because they've

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Speaker 3: just had some kind of health shock or job shock.

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Speaker 3: There's a youth development and social organization group called Kickback,

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Speaker 3: and they said these increased barriers to people accessing support

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Speaker 3: would result in more younger people sleeping on the streets

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Speaker 3: or being pushed into dangerous and vulnerable situations. And they

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Speaker 3: said staunchly young people do not lack the motivation, they

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Speaker 3: lack access to their basic human rights.

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Speaker 2: So these changes are due to come into effect what

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Speaker 2: next year. We've seen reports already of people having their

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Speaker 2: benefits cut for missing meetings and things, haven't we.

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Speaker 3: I heard this morning actually a story about someone an

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Speaker 3: accountant I believe, who had had received a letter that

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Speaker 3: their benefit was going to be cut if I recall correctly,

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Speaker 3: for missing an obligation that they were not aware they were.

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Speaker 1: Meant to do.

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Speaker 3: I think it was in a meeting or appointment and

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Speaker 3: they weren't aware of it.

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Speaker 6: There's been no communications wherever I'm there in they just

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Speaker 6: decided to, I don't know, maybe test the waters on

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Speaker 6: a bunch of people to see if they can cut

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Speaker 6: their benefits and see what will happen.

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Speaker 7: But I will have the.

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Speaker 6: Courage to stand up for myself and fight. But I

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Speaker 6: know that there are a lot more vulnerable people out there,

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Speaker 6: and my concern goes out to them.

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Speaker 3: So I did hear that report this morning. The traffic

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Speaker 3: light system is an action now, and the other changes

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Speaker 3: around those sanctions that I mentioned, and the extended time

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Speaker 3: period of failure is on a person's record and the

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Speaker 3: job seeker profiles. They come into effect next year.

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Speaker 2: On morning report the other day, Luxon was unable to

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Speaker 2: give a bullpark figure of how much a beneficiary actually receives.

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Speaker 3: Do you know how much that is?

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Speaker 7: No, I don't be I'm not right now, but I

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Speaker 7: just don't say to you. It's about making sure we

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Speaker 7: get people prepared for work, and we think off welfare

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Speaker 7: and into work as a much better outcome.

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Speaker 4: So you don't know how much someone who is on

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Speaker 4: a job seeker benefit is having to live on.

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Speaker 7: Well, I just don't want to. I'll give you a

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Speaker 7: precise number, but I don't know the precise number i'll

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Speaker 7: give it.

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Speaker 1: Could you give me a rough number?

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Speaker 7: No, I'm not going to do that because I want

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Speaker 7: to make sure I get it.

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Speaker 2: Right for you.

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Speaker 1: So how much are people getting?

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Speaker 3: So the rate you get paid depends on your circumstances.

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Speaker 3: You know, do you have a partner, do you have children?

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Speaker 3: But for example, a single person without children who'd be

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Speaker 3: twenty five years or older would receive about three hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty dollars a week under Job Seeker Net per week.

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Speaker 2: Given that it's not a particularly huge amount of money,

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Speaker 2: why is it such a priority for National? Is it

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Speaker 2: about getting people back into the paid workforce, Is it

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Speaker 2: about saving money by reducing those being supported.

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Speaker 1: By the state, or is it just an easy win

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Speaker 1: with voters? Do you think?

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Speaker 3: I think it's important to note that Luxon the Prime

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Speaker 3: Minister himself has noted that this will affect only around

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Speaker 3: five percent of people are missing or not meeting the obligation,

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Speaker 3: So that's around ten thousand people. But you know, the

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Speaker 3: message given appears to be stronger than that. You know,

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Speaker 3: National's ethos is to have a smaller welfare state. Reducing

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Speaker 3: welfare dependency has been something the National Party have campaigned

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Speaker 3: on and the Prime Minister and the State of the

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Speaker 3: Nation speech in February said you know that the free

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Speaker 3: ride for beneficiaries who were not adhering to the obligations

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Speaker 3: was over and he vowed to kind of break the

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Speaker 3: shackles of welfare dependency. And then again on Monday when

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Speaker 3: he announced this new traffic light system with the Social

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Speaker 3: Development Minister, he said there was a strong expectation that

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Speaker 3: those people who can work should be in work and

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Speaker 3: that fewer people on welfare was better for them themselves,

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Speaker 3: for their future, for their families, and better for the

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Speaker 3: economy and better for New Zealand. He also said, you

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Speaker 3: know that the government wanted to do so much more

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Speaker 3: for our young people and that they do everything that

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Speaker 3: they can to support them off welfare and into jobs,

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Speaker 3: and they've tarted this latest annoucement announcement as one of

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Speaker 3: those steps.

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Speaker 2: It does seem to be a political kind of buzzword. Hey,

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Speaker 2: we see governments around the world saying similar things about beneficiaries,

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Speaker 2: but if we dig into the.

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Speaker 1: Numbers, it's not always as big as it seems so.

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Speaker 2: On that last point, Julia, do you think that this

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Speaker 2: policy is going to resonate with people. We've seen huge

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Speaker 2: numbers on the Herald site for stories covering this. It

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Speaker 2: definitely seems to be getting some cut through.

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Speaker 3: Well. It'll resonate differently with different people for different reasons.

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Speaker 3: Some people may see the view of sanctioning beneficiaries as

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Speaker 3: indeed one way of incentivizing people to get into work.

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Speaker 3: But for other people who either our own benefit or

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Speaker 3: who believe the role of the state is to better

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Speaker 3: and holistically support people who need a benefit, who are

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Speaker 3: often in quite vulnerable positions, I think this could be

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Speaker 3: really concerning and jarring and even stressful.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Julia.

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Speaker 2: That said, for this episode of The Front Page, you

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Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

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Speaker 2: at enzed herold.

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Speaker 1: Dot co dot z.

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Speaker 2: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Seals with sound

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Speaker 2: engineer Patty Fox.

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Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow

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Speaker 1: For another look behind the headlines.