1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,972 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at be 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,653 --> 00:00:20,053 Speaker 2: We have been discussing MMP. It's almost thirty years since 4 00:00:20,053 --> 00:00:22,933 Speaker 2: it was introduced in nineteen ninety six and the New 5 00:00:23,053 --> 00:00:27,053 Speaker 2: Zealand Institute has suggested a few changes, some a bit 6 00:00:27,093 --> 00:00:29,813 Speaker 2: bolder than others, I've got to say, to discuss further. 7 00:00:29,853 --> 00:00:32,852 Speaker 2: We are joined by senior political correspondent Barry Soper. Good 8 00:00:32,893 --> 00:00:33,493 Speaker 2: to see you, Barry. 9 00:00:33,573 --> 00:00:35,333 Speaker 3: Good afternoon, lad. It's nice to be here. 10 00:00:35,533 --> 00:00:38,492 Speaker 4: So coming up on thirty years since MMP, let's just 11 00:00:38,533 --> 00:00:41,373 Speaker 4: look back. What was the mood in New Zealand that 12 00:00:41,492 --> 00:00:43,573 Speaker 4: led to this MMP change? 13 00:00:43,613 --> 00:00:46,732 Speaker 3: Well, it was it was all most arrived at by 14 00:00:46,732 --> 00:00:50,132 Speaker 3: a mistake because David Longy made a comment in one 15 00:00:50,173 --> 00:00:52,252 Speaker 3: of the debates he is having with Jim Bolger that 16 00:00:53,853 --> 00:00:55,572 Speaker 3: he would like to see a change to the electoral 17 00:00:55,613 --> 00:00:59,373 Speaker 3: system and several options were put up because Bulger talking 18 00:00:59,373 --> 00:01:01,253 Speaker 3: about his word and did the right thing when he 19 00:01:01,293 --> 00:01:05,373 Speaker 3: became Prime minister, and so several options were given him. 20 00:01:05,413 --> 00:01:09,013 Speaker 3: First past the post was out of the mix. But 21 00:01:09,533 --> 00:01:11,733 Speaker 3: you know we had this mixed member of proportional system. 22 00:01:11,853 --> 00:01:17,973 Speaker 3: Nobody understood it then unfortunately the trajics like me had 23 00:01:18,013 --> 00:01:21,012 Speaker 3: to understand it. So and it's not when you look 24 00:01:21,013 --> 00:01:24,133 Speaker 3: at it, it's actually quite an easy system to understand. 25 00:01:24,533 --> 00:01:28,853 Speaker 3: So you have, you know, the electoral MPs and list MPs, 26 00:01:28,932 --> 00:01:31,372 Speaker 3: and we always thought at the time that list MPs 27 00:01:31,373 --> 00:01:34,733 Speaker 3: we're going to be a lesser strength MP than the 28 00:01:35,853 --> 00:01:39,493 Speaker 3: elected MPs. But it's not the case. They don't differentiate 29 00:01:39,533 --> 00:01:40,973 Speaker 3: at all now, right. 30 00:01:41,212 --> 00:01:44,373 Speaker 4: Yeah, So you know, there seemed to be a big 31 00:01:44,413 --> 00:01:46,853 Speaker 4: wave of enthusiasm for it and was going to solve 32 00:01:46,973 --> 00:01:50,693 Speaker 4: all the problems you mentioned that there with the list MPs. 33 00:01:50,773 --> 00:01:53,253 Speaker 4: Has it played out as people expected? Has it played 34 00:01:53,253 --> 00:01:55,493 Speaker 4: out as it was sold in nineteen ninety five? 35 00:01:55,853 --> 00:01:59,853 Speaker 3: Well, if it is a house of representatives, I think 36 00:02:00,333 --> 00:02:03,093 Speaker 3: truly it is representative. I mean we've had people off 37 00:02:03,093 --> 00:02:07,653 Speaker 3: the doll going into Parliament and we've had all sorts 38 00:02:07,693 --> 00:02:11,132 Speaker 3: and or team chos. Who now is of course a mayor? Yeah? 39 00:02:11,173 --> 00:02:15,653 Speaker 3: And where was at Fukatai? Yeah? And you know he 40 00:02:15,733 --> 00:02:18,613 Speaker 3: used to keep the four Court clean, brushing them with 41 00:02:18,653 --> 00:02:19,452 Speaker 3: his dreadlocks. 42 00:02:19,813 --> 00:02:23,373 Speaker 4: And I often think they're drunk in charge of a country. 43 00:02:23,893 --> 00:02:26,733 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I often think of Muldoon was around. 44 00:02:27,252 --> 00:02:29,493 Speaker 3: He would turn in his ste in the sky to 45 00:02:29,573 --> 00:02:33,013 Speaker 3: see what all this was about. But look, it has 46 00:02:33,053 --> 00:02:36,493 Speaker 3: delivered a representative parliament. I guess I don't like the 47 00:02:36,532 --> 00:02:40,053 Speaker 3: overhang very much because some people are still not aware. 48 00:02:40,093 --> 00:02:42,653 Speaker 3: We've got one hundred and twenty three MPs at the 49 00:02:42,653 --> 00:02:45,893 Speaker 3: moment and the quota normally is one hundred and twenty 50 00:02:46,493 --> 00:02:50,012 Speaker 3: and this New Zealand Initiative report said that in fact 51 00:02:50,013 --> 00:02:52,773 Speaker 3: they would like to see fifty I think fifty more MPs. 52 00:02:53,053 --> 00:02:55,453 Speaker 3: Well please, I mean, I think we've got enough to 53 00:02:55,453 --> 00:02:57,493 Speaker 3: contend with now. Yeah. 54 00:02:57,493 --> 00:03:00,292 Speaker 4: But they say that there's not enough people for the 55 00:03:00,653 --> 00:03:05,293 Speaker 4: select committees, and that MPs are overworked, and that you know, 56 00:03:05,813 --> 00:03:10,453 Speaker 4: electorates used to be, you know, cover thirty five thousand, 57 00:03:10,493 --> 00:03:13,053 Speaker 4: now they cover seventy thousand, and that other countries of 58 00:03:13,093 --> 00:03:15,933 Speaker 4: a similar size have more MPs. So is there is 59 00:03:15,972 --> 00:03:19,853 Speaker 4: there something in that? I mean, do you think select 60 00:03:19,972 --> 00:03:22,173 Speaker 4: committees are working? 61 00:03:22,413 --> 00:03:26,173 Speaker 3: Yes? I do, yeah, I mean select committees they in 62 00:03:26,213 --> 00:03:28,613 Speaker 3: the fifties replaced the old upper house that we used 63 00:03:28,613 --> 00:03:33,773 Speaker 3: to have in parliament, and so legislation is usually tested 64 00:03:34,293 --> 00:03:39,213 Speaker 3: unless it is introduced under urgency. But you know, I 65 00:03:39,253 --> 00:03:43,813 Speaker 3: think back to when it started MMP. You saw Medea 66 00:03:43,893 --> 00:03:47,293 Speaker 3: old late friend Bob Jones started his party, the New 67 00:03:47,413 --> 00:03:51,293 Speaker 3: Zealand Party. They got twelve percent of the vote, and 68 00:03:51,853 --> 00:03:55,373 Speaker 3: I think it was nineteen eighty one they got twelve percent, 69 00:03:55,413 --> 00:03:58,853 Speaker 3: which is extraordinary really, and I'd remember saying to Bob 70 00:03:58,893 --> 00:04:02,373 Speaker 3: at the time, Mate, you've escaped. Luckily you haven't won 71 00:04:02,413 --> 00:04:05,253 Speaker 3: an electorate seat, so you don't get any seats in parliament. 72 00:04:05,293 --> 00:04:08,653 Speaker 3: And if you had occupied a seat in Parliament, you 73 00:04:08,813 --> 00:04:11,893 Speaker 3: wouldn't have liked it, Betty, I hated it. 74 00:04:11,973 --> 00:04:14,613 Speaker 2: Yeah, what about this idea of lowering the threshold to 75 00:04:14,653 --> 00:04:16,773 Speaker 2: three point five percent? Is that going to create all 76 00:04:16,813 --> 00:04:19,533 Speaker 2: sorts of chaos? Off there's lonings that get across that 77 00:04:19,613 --> 00:04:22,493 Speaker 2: threshold and then make it even more complicated potentially. 78 00:04:22,813 --> 00:04:26,613 Speaker 3: I think if you lower the thresholder five percent is 79 00:04:27,093 --> 00:04:31,253 Speaker 3: fairly difficult to achieve. And we saw after John Key 80 00:04:31,253 --> 00:04:34,453 Speaker 3: said that he wouldn't work with Winston Peters. New Zealand 81 00:04:34,453 --> 00:04:36,693 Speaker 3: first went out of office in two thousand and eight 82 00:04:37,013 --> 00:04:39,773 Speaker 3: for three years, but it's come back stronger than ever now, 83 00:04:40,853 --> 00:04:43,893 Speaker 3: so you know, there is a there's always been an 84 00:04:43,973 --> 00:04:46,653 Speaker 3: argument for a lower threshold, but I think five percent 85 00:04:46,733 --> 00:04:50,173 Speaker 3: is about right because you at least you get I 86 00:04:50,173 --> 00:04:53,453 Speaker 3: shouldn't say serious parties because a couple of them that 87 00:04:53,533 --> 00:04:55,973 Speaker 3: are in there now are not terribly serious in review. 88 00:04:56,413 --> 00:04:59,893 Speaker 3: But so you do get a few dregs in Parliament, 89 00:04:59,933 --> 00:05:03,413 Speaker 3: and that's certainly the case at the moment. But you know, 90 00:05:04,133 --> 00:05:08,133 Speaker 3: I think it is representative, and I think five percent 91 00:05:08,213 --> 00:05:10,293 Speaker 3: is the right threshold to have. 92 00:05:10,813 --> 00:05:13,293 Speaker 4: So when you say it's representative, as Tyler was saying before, 93 00:05:13,333 --> 00:05:18,013 Speaker 4: is it representative when say, in twenty seventeen, National, you know, 94 00:05:18,133 --> 00:05:22,573 Speaker 4: get the most votes, but then New Zealand first Winston 95 00:05:22,653 --> 00:05:28,013 Speaker 4: comes along and chooses Labor to be to lead the government. 96 00:05:28,813 --> 00:05:30,093 Speaker 4: So is that representative? 97 00:05:30,173 --> 00:05:32,973 Speaker 3: Well, it's the first time it's ever happened under MMP. 98 00:05:33,213 --> 00:05:38,093 Speaker 3: I mean at that election. Bill English led the National 99 00:05:38,133 --> 00:05:43,293 Speaker 3: Party to a seven point lead over Labor on the 100 00:05:43,413 --> 00:05:48,453 Speaker 3: night of the election, and under normal circumstances you would 101 00:05:48,533 --> 00:05:51,613 Speaker 3: expect that it would be a Labor sorry, a National 102 00:05:51,653 --> 00:05:55,893 Speaker 3: government that would form the government. But you know it's 103 00:05:55,933 --> 00:06:00,373 Speaker 3: down to the negotiations and Winston I always said, you 104 00:06:00,493 --> 00:06:03,493 Speaker 3: better get used to the name just durn prime Minister 105 00:06:04,053 --> 00:06:08,333 Speaker 3: because I always felt that Winston would go with Labor 106 00:06:08,453 --> 00:06:12,373 Speaker 3: because people tend to forget that it was Bill English 107 00:06:12,493 --> 00:06:15,693 Speaker 3: that moved the motion to get rid of Winston Peters 108 00:06:15,693 --> 00:06:19,893 Speaker 3: from the National Part several years earlier, and so Winston 109 00:06:19,973 --> 00:06:25,413 Speaker 3: has a memory and you know, certainly Bill English's future 110 00:06:25,453 --> 00:06:28,893 Speaker 3: as Prime Minister depended on that memory and it wasn't 111 00:06:28,893 --> 00:06:30,573 Speaker 3: a good one. So you never got the job. 112 00:06:31,133 --> 00:06:34,253 Speaker 4: Now, back when they were first talking about MMP and 113 00:06:34,493 --> 00:06:37,893 Speaker 4: you know, selling it, there were some political now analysts 114 00:06:37,973 --> 00:06:39,933 Speaker 4: and people looking at the system were suggesting that it 115 00:06:39,973 --> 00:06:43,373 Speaker 4: wasn't really compatible with the multi seats, you know, because 116 00:06:43,373 --> 00:06:45,333 Speaker 4: then you've got the system, but then you've got this 117 00:06:45,453 --> 00:06:48,573 Speaker 4: sort of system to the side of it. I don't 118 00:06:48,573 --> 00:06:52,613 Speaker 4: think there's any movement really happening now to get rid 119 00:06:52,613 --> 00:06:54,493 Speaker 4: of those seats. But how do you think that's played out? 120 00:06:54,493 --> 00:06:58,093 Speaker 4: Because that's led to the overhangs and it's kind of 121 00:06:58,093 --> 00:07:02,973 Speaker 4: a complicated situation, isn't it. Within because yeah, within an 122 00:07:03,093 --> 00:07:04,973 Speaker 4: MMP situation, you've got this other thing happening. 123 00:07:04,973 --> 00:07:09,213 Speaker 3: You've got another thing. Look. John Key may well remember, 124 00:07:09,253 --> 00:07:11,213 Speaker 3: and the lead up to the two thousand and eight election, 125 00:07:11,773 --> 00:07:13,213 Speaker 3: said that he is going to get rid of the 126 00:07:13,253 --> 00:07:16,373 Speaker 3: Maori seats. When he got the job as Prime minister, 127 00:07:16,573 --> 00:07:21,533 Speaker 3: he brought in the Maori Party to the government and 128 00:07:21,573 --> 00:07:25,173 Speaker 3: to me that was his insurance policy that the Maori 129 00:07:25,653 --> 00:07:28,613 Speaker 3: Party that was formed of course by Tarry and Naturia 130 00:07:28,933 --> 00:07:33,293 Speaker 3: when she broke away from the Labor Party. You know, 131 00:07:33,573 --> 00:07:37,613 Speaker 3: she was of real strength in Parliament and a very 132 00:07:37,613 --> 00:07:41,453 Speaker 3: good MP. And I think John Key was quite deft 133 00:07:41,773 --> 00:07:45,533 Speaker 3: and doing a coalition deal with the Maori Party because 134 00:07:45,573 --> 00:07:47,813 Speaker 3: the whole of the country was covered. But as you say, 135 00:07:47,853 --> 00:07:52,453 Speaker 3: mat you know, the Maori seats are not really conducive 136 00:07:52,973 --> 00:07:55,213 Speaker 3: to m MP, but the scene is an add on 137 00:07:55,693 --> 00:07:58,213 Speaker 3: and we get to MP's in Parliament added to as 138 00:07:58,253 --> 00:07:58,693 Speaker 3: a result. 139 00:07:58,933 --> 00:07:59,173 Speaker 1: Yeah. 140 00:07:59,653 --> 00:08:03,093 Speaker 4: So just finally, Barry, do you think if people knew 141 00:08:03,173 --> 00:08:05,773 Speaker 4: now what they know, whether they would have the people 142 00:08:05,773 --> 00:08:07,933 Speaker 4: that have voted for mpeep would have gone for it. 143 00:08:08,493 --> 00:08:12,333 Speaker 3: Was against it. I always like winners and losers, and. 144 00:08:11,733 --> 00:08:15,813 Speaker 4: In fun election nights where it's just decided you've got. 145 00:08:15,733 --> 00:08:19,933 Speaker 3: So many losers becoming winners under the current system that 146 00:08:20,013 --> 00:08:22,293 Speaker 3: you may lose your seat, doesn't matter. Bugger it. I'll 147 00:08:22,333 --> 00:08:25,013 Speaker 3: be in Parliament anyway because the party likes me on 148 00:08:25,133 --> 00:08:28,253 Speaker 3: a high place on the list. But now I've got 149 00:08:28,373 --> 00:08:31,013 Speaker 3: used to it. I actually quite like it because it 150 00:08:31,093 --> 00:08:36,053 Speaker 3: is representative, there are flaws in it and the other 151 00:08:36,093 --> 00:08:38,012 Speaker 3: thing that they discussed, and I know you're running out 152 00:08:38,013 --> 00:08:42,413 Speaker 3: of time, but the four year parliament, that's another thing. 153 00:08:42,453 --> 00:08:44,173 Speaker 3: There won't be an MP in the place that wouldn't 154 00:08:44,213 --> 00:08:46,253 Speaker 3: vote for a four year parliament because they have a 155 00:08:46,333 --> 00:08:48,973 Speaker 3: job for another year. But it's not that simple. I 156 00:08:49,093 --> 00:08:52,933 Speaker 3: think we have a boom bust election cycle in New Zealand. 157 00:08:53,333 --> 00:08:55,533 Speaker 3: So you know, at the start of the three years 158 00:08:55,892 --> 00:08:59,372 Speaker 3: they build on what they campaigned on. The second year 159 00:08:59,492 --> 00:09:02,333 Speaker 3: is normally a policy year, and the third year is 160 00:09:02,372 --> 00:09:06,532 Speaker 3: campaigning again. So you've got boom bust elections and I'm 161 00:09:06,612 --> 00:09:08,133 Speaker 3: an advocate for four years as well. 162 00:09:08,372 --> 00:09:11,053 Speaker 2: Up seems to make sense, Barrie. It's a fascinating discussion 163 00:09:11,132 --> 00:09:13,893 Speaker 2: and thank you very much for your analysis. That is 164 00:09:13,892 --> 00:09:16,093 Speaker 2: our senior political correspondent, Barrrie Sober. 165 00:09:16,732 --> 00:09:19,372 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks at b listen live on 166 00:09:19,453 --> 00:09:22,413 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 167 00:09:22,453 --> 00:09:25,053 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.