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Speaker 1: New details back here this morning on how the performance

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Speaker 1: of charter schools are going to be measured. So we've

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Speaker 1: got a framework that allegedly will boost student achievement. Pass

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Speaker 1: rates will be measured using an equity index taking into

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Speaker 1: account socioeconomic barriers. The Associate Education Minister, the man behind

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Speaker 1: charter schools, of course, is David see morning. He's with us.

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Speaker 1: Very good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning.

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Speaker 1: Way of all the things you're progressing at the moment,

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Speaker 1: because you're a busy man. Where's charter school sitting in

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Speaker 1: the totem pole? Are things smooth or not as.

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Speaker 2: Very smooth? There's people who will say we don't need

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Speaker 2: these policies. Actually, we've had eighty applicants. People are around

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Speaker 2: the community, have put together destailed application to run them.

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Speaker 2: It shows there is demands and we're processing those are

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Speaker 2: pretty challenging given the volume. But it looks like we're

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Speaker 2: going to have a very good first crop of charter

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Speaker 2: schools very soon.

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Speaker 1: So the numbers are there, so that's the good side

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Speaker 1: of it. Are they quality at the stage? Do you know?

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Speaker 2: I don't get involved, so I haven't actually seen them,

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Speaker 2: but I do ask the people at the charter school

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Speaker 2: agency in the Ministry of Education, and they tell me

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Speaker 2: that I can tell you that it's very, very confident about.

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Speaker 1: Good the equity index. How specific is it the school?

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Speaker 1: Is it the class or is it the kid.

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Speaker 2: It's down to the school. So in a perfect world

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Speaker 2: it would be down to the kid. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things we're doing across government

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Speaker 2: and especially in education is trying to improve the data.

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Speaker 2: So at this point, it's equity index sets a bunch

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Speaker 2: of targets for the school, and that's the percentage of

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Speaker 2: children that need to achieve a certain target such as

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Speaker 2: regular attendance or reading or maths for primary or NCAA

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Speaker 2: the secondary.

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Speaker 1: And where does that sit against state public.

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Speaker 2: School The basic rule of thumb is that charter schools

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Speaker 2: have the same goals as state schools, such as ninety

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Speaker 2: five percent getting NCAA Level two, such as eighty percent

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Speaker 2: attending ninety percent of the time. What's different with charters

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Speaker 2: is that we're putting in hard minimums where if they

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Speaker 2: don't do it, we will shut them down. And that's

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Speaker 2: what's really different with charters. They get more freedom, but

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Speaker 2: they also get targets for attendance, achievement, and fiscal probity

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Speaker 2: that if they don't reach them, we will shut them down.

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Speaker 2: And the last time they were charter schools, we did

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Speaker 2: shut them. Ok it's not an idle threat.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So, but you don't want to because the last

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Speaker 1: thing you need is a kid going to a school

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly the school's closed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you don't walk in the day they go

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Speaker 2: one percent under the target and say you shut down.

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Speaker 2: There's a process, but generally speaking, the target for charter

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Speaker 2: schools is they must be in the top half of

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Speaker 2: state schools or they get shut down, and aiming to

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Speaker 2: reach the overall government targets eighty depending on the measure.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So there's a couple of things that come out

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Speaker 1: of that. One is their individual performance, and so if

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Speaker 1: they do well, they do well for the kids in

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Speaker 1: the community and all that's fantastic. If you get an attendance,

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Speaker 1: for example, at a higher level at a charter school,

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Speaker 1: that then flows by reputation to everybody else, at which

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Speaker 1: point I'm assuming and you'll go, they can do it,

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Speaker 1: so why can't you When they come back and go, well,

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Speaker 1: that's because they get so much more money. David, what

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Speaker 1: do you say then.

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Speaker 2: Well, put it this way, We're going to let state

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Speaker 2: schools that want to convert to charter schools, and the

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Speaker 2: day that they open up as a charter school, they'll

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Speaker 2: get exactly the same money as they got yesterday when

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Speaker 2: they shut down as a state school. There is no difference.

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Speaker 2: And it's exactly the same with brand new charter schools

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Speaker 2: that start from scratch. The principle is they get the

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Speaker 2: money that the same kids would have got were they

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Speaker 2: going to a state school. People like to put about

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Speaker 2: all of this misinformation and try and say that they're

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Speaker 2: getting funded at a higher rate, and you know, the

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Speaker 2: truth is that they're not. People need to ask themselves

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Speaker 2: why is that. One of the biggest differences with charters

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Speaker 2: is that we are giving them the ability to hire teachers.

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Speaker 2: They have to be registered, but they don't have to

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Speaker 2: be on the union tracks. Now, if you're the PPTA

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Speaker 2: or the MZDI, then a successful group of schools that

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Speaker 2: have individual employment agreements are an existential threat. And I

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Speaker 2: just want to say that slowly, because this is the beginning,

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Speaker 2: the middle, and the end of the charter school debate.

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Speaker 2: The unions aren't afraid that charter schools will fail. They

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Speaker 2: are petrified that they're going to succeed, and I think

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Speaker 2: they just might because the children need it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, while I've got you a couple of things. Aut

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Speaker 1: we featured some information in the last couple of days

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Speaker 1: here Penny Simmons apparently had a meeting. I know this

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Speaker 1: isn't your area, but it kind of is so aut

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Speaker 1: And they're one of the many examples run the system

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Speaker 1: whereby if you want to travel as your elector of professor, whatever.

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Speaker 1: If you travel, you fill out a box and a form.

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Speaker 1: If you're MARI and if you're Pacific, you get extra

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Speaker 1: points simply by being Mari or Pacific to get the

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Speaker 1: money for travel. I thought that was over. If it's over,

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Speaker 1: how come they're still doing it.

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Speaker 2: Well. Number one, we've issued a circular cabinet circular to

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Speaker 2: the public as saying you must deliver services of need

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Speaker 2: not race. That came out last week, and yet it

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Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily apply. In fact, it doesn't apply to universities,

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Speaker 2: which are separate institutions. Nonetheless, I think you can be

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Speaker 2: confident that with the likes of any the responsible minister

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Speaker 2: telling them what's what, you're going to see that sort

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Speaker 2: of practice run out of tertiary institutions. But look, I'm

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Speaker 2: as frustrated as anyone that often we've got this state

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Speaker 2: apparatus of a quarter million people, thousands of institutions. You've

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Speaker 2: got people ingrained in there. But amazingly in twenty twenty fourth,

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Speaker 2: but blatant racial profiling where you have to tick a

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Speaker 2: box for your race and you get different amounts of money,

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Speaker 2: is somehow not just okay, but a good idea. And

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Speaker 2: these are the people running universities. I mean, it is astonishing,

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Speaker 2: but we are step by step telling them that we

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Speaker 2: abhore raci or discrimination. We believe in universal human rights

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Speaker 2: where the elected government and you better get with the program.

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Speaker 2: It's just a process of one organization, one institution, one

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Speaker 2: case at a time.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, because when do you run

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Speaker 1: out of patients, Because it's one thing. It's one thing

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Speaker 1: to have the idea. So you agree with your idea

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Speaker 1: or you don't. But you are the government that's irrefutable,

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Speaker 1: and you have issued a need that's irrefutable. Yet what

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Speaker 1: we now seem to have is pushback in the middle finger.

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Speaker 2: Well, in fairness, this has been in place for some time,

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Speaker 2: and it's been discovered this week. I don't believe it's

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Speaker 2: something that they've established this week, but you know, you're right.

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Speaker 2: I had a doctor just yesterday. So here is proof

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Speaker 2: in August twenty twenty four that we are racially profiling patients.

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Speaker 2: I believe that's wrong. But what do you do about it? Well,

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Speaker 2: you get the Minister of Health and say this is

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Speaker 2: what's happening in your organization. Can you do something about it.

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Speaker 2: Just two weeks ago we saw it with the GPS

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Speaker 2: in hawks Bay saying that it's free if you're Maoria Pacifica.

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Speaker 2: If you're not, you have to pay, regardless of whether

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Speaker 2: you're ritual or poor or what your true need is.

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Speaker 2: Shane's been in touch with Hawkes Bay to sector of

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Speaker 2: the Health New Zealand and said, guys new sheriff in

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Speaker 2: town the same how it works anymore and they've stopped.

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Speaker 2: So yep, frustrating, but it's just you know, you've got

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Speaker 2: to recognize that we're not a dictatorship. We're a pluralistic

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Speaker 2: society with a large number of organizations, some of which universities,

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Speaker 2: for example, have quite a lot of autonomy, and so

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Speaker 2: they should because we believe in academic freedom. At the

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Speaker 2: end of the day. But every now and then you

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Speaker 2: just have to give them a reminder of who's paying

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Speaker 2: the bill. It's the tax payers of New Zealand, and

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Speaker 2: the tax payers of New Zealand elected a government that

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Speaker 2: does not believe in racially profiling at citizens. It's bizarre

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Speaker 2: I have to say that in twenty twenty four, but

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Speaker 2: here we are good.

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Speaker 1: On you appreciate it. David see Moore, the leader of Back.

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Speaker 1: We asked Penny Simmons, who had the meeting yesterday with

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Speaker 1: aut to come on. She's getting advice today apparently, and

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Speaker 1: we'll let us know how that unfolds.

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Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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Speaker 2: news talks. They'd be from six am weekdays, or follow

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