1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: On the huddle of us this evening. Trish Sherson of 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Sheerson willis Prjo Spaghani of Child Fund, the CEO. Hello 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: you too. Hello, Hello, So Trish, you come home. You've 4 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: been out in the wide world and we're talking about 5 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: Tory's car? Is this like a shock to you? Shocked 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: to your sister? 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 2: Can I? Firstly, can I answer that question in reverse? 8 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: Please do tell me what that means. No, huh. 9 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: Let me just say this. There's two ways you can 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 2: come home to New Zealand. I've thought about this. One 11 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 2: is you go, oh gosh, you know, still looks a 12 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 2: bit you know, down in its cups and a bit 13 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: you know. Or the other way you can come home 14 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: as you go. I've spent four weeks watching international news 15 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: and man, other places have some massive problems that we 16 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: don't have. And actually, if a few two, you know, 17 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: I haven't got enough roads. It's kind of a first 18 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: world problem that we can still fix. So I'm going 19 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: with the glass half full. 20 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: At least we're not we're not a threat of bombing. 21 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: We've just got Tory exploding on us. Now, Josey, what 22 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: do you think of the Tory situation? Do you want 23 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: to make a call on whether she did sell the 24 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: thing for her bills or what. 25 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, well, can I start by saying, well 26 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 3: done Wellington. You did a Gwyneth Pultrow. You consciously decoupled 27 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 3: from the rest of the country in the last selection. 28 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 3: You voted for a Green mayor and two Green MP's 29 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: and the rest of us didn't. Now you've got twenty 30 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 3: eight kilometers of cycle ways, no cafes, empty hotels, no jobs, 31 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 3: and we're talking about Tory Farno's car. So yeah, well done. 32 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: I like how you did the thing where you were 33 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: like the rest of us didn't. But you are still 34 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: in Wellington, aren't you. Are you trying to cut. 35 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 3: I didn't vote for him, so don't come whining to 36 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 3: meet Kington. I didn't vote for it, But no. I 37 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 3: mean it's a mess, isn't it. And I think it's 38 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 3: just another example of the lack of political instincts that 39 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 3: she has. I mean, the fact that you think you 40 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 3: can go on do a radio interview and say one thing, 41 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: a TV and Z interview and say another thing. I mean, 42 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 3: even when she goes pub about things like she went 43 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 3: public about her drinking problem and good honor but then 44 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 3: she goes public again for her diagnosis of ADHD and autism, 45 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 3: and even that, you know you're sympathetic, but it starts 46 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: to feel like, my god, you're making all these excuses 47 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 3: for the fact that you're just not delivering on the 48 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: stuff that you said you were one unify the council 49 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 3: hasn't done that. Second, get willing to moving. It's in 50 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 3: a dead stop. So it's just it talks to her 51 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 3: lack of political instincts, and now that is a real problem. Yep. 52 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: I think you bang on there, Trisha. Is it at 53 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: the threshold? Like I think that it really needs a 54 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: Crown observer because it's such a mess. But what do 55 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:42,399 Speaker 1: you think. 56 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: It's funny, isn't it if an interview over what you 57 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: did with why you sold your car is a topping 58 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: point for a Crown observer? I think you are right, 59 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 2: and for the reason not just because of the issues 60 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: with the leadership, but overall the state that Wellington is 61 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: in and the urgency with which those serious issues need 62 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: to be addressed. And you know, if you can't pass 63 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 2: a long term plan, if you can't get the sale 64 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: of the airport away properly, which is really fundamental to 65 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: getting the council finances back into a sustainable form. Then 66 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: there is a serious issue there. And I have to say, 67 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 2: you know, as a watcher of media interviews and I've 68 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: heard you this afternoon and you know you've had a 69 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: great summation of it. This was one of the worst 70 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: performances I think that I have seen. And if you 71 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: were a rate payer watching this, you would come away 72 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: with a feeling that you just can't trust the person 73 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: in charge. 74 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what I would say though, that I 75 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 3: think that rather because it's a big thing to remove 76 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 3: or you know, set in a control mechanism for an 77 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 3: elected official. And look, I want her gone just like 78 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: anybody in Wellington. But I think you've got to wait 79 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: till next year the local elections. It's not that long 80 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 3: away voting. 81 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: About but that's how we do it. But Josie, you 82 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: know you don't have to remove it. Ray. You just 83 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: put a grown up in there to kind of like 84 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: sit down and make sure everything's going okay. They all 85 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: get to keep their jobs. 86 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 3: That's right. But you can do that, but at a 87 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 3: great expense. And one of the things that we've the 88 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 3: problem we've had Wellington is that. I mean, they've just 89 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 3: spent so much money doing absolutely you know, overall, so 90 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 3: I think just you know, next year the elections, this 91 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 3: is your chance, Wellington to get it right. Don't muck 92 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 3: it up again. 93 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess my point on that would be that's 94 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 2: still a whole year away when these but you know 95 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 2: that is a whole year away at Wellington. I think 96 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: the Observer is a good middle path, and you know, 97 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: I did like the comment around the Observer. 98 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: At the very least they. 99 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,679 Speaker 2: Could try and facilitate to get some stuff done. 100 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: Just so they don't fight so much. All Right, we'll 101 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: take a break, come back to you guys in the 102 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: tech quarter. Two right, we're back with the Hartle Trisius 103 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: and Joseph A. Ganny Josie, what do you think about 104 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: the public servants being sent back into the office, good 105 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: or bad? 106 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 3: Well, I do feel like the pendulum swung a bit 107 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 3: too far the way towards flexibility. And you feel a 108 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: little bit like as an employer that you show a contract, 109 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: you go, look, it does say you've got to come 110 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 3: to work every day, And the employer will say, but 111 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 3: but what if I've got something else to do? You know, 112 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 3: this is a sense that it's just become normalized to 113 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 3: go I've got a hack out. Oh, I just don't 114 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 3: feel like it. But the other thing I would say 115 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 3: is as an employer, you know, I've got staff that 116 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 3: do a lot of flexibility. When you've got the right 117 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: people on the bus, I will do anything to rearrange 118 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 3: the seats to keep the right persons in that organization right. 119 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 3: And if it means that they need flexibility, you know, 120 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 3: I've got staff who have commute from from I myself 121 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 3: commute from Carpody up to Auckland every couple of weeks, 122 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 3: you know. So I think that if you've got the 123 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 3: right people, you will do anything to keep the right people. 124 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 3: And so I do think it's a balance. But I think, 125 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 3: you know, I think the government's right that it has 126 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 3: gone too far the other way, and there's a sense 127 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 3: that it's a it's an entitlement rather than a privilege 128 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 3: or an agreement. But I also feel a bit uncomfortable 129 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 3: with the government telling us. You know, I know, it's 130 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 3: public servants and we're paying for it out of our 131 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: taxpayers money, and they are in a sense the boss. 132 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: But I do feel about uncomfortable government telling people you 133 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: know they can or can't do flexibility and when they 134 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: should and shouldn't come to work. It's like, can you 135 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 3: just focus on maybe growing the economy and go with you? 136 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: This is part of it. Like I mean, look, you'll 137 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: know a public servant who takes them key, I knew 138 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: a public servant love them dearly, renovating their house on 139 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: work time. Like that's it's a complete it's a complete rule. 140 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 3: But my point, my point, Heather though, is it's not 141 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 3: the government's. It's not luxo and you know Prime Minister 142 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 3: or Minister of Finance's job to tell them. It's there 143 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 3: their direct employer who should. 144 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: Be saying he think it is, No, I think it 145 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: is because these guys, these guys in the public sector 146 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: have completely lost any kind of sense of what it 147 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: means to work hard, and that includes right up to 148 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: the top. And if they need to be told by 149 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: their employers the government, then they have to be told 150 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: by their employers. 151 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: What do you think, Trisha, Well, ministers send out letters 152 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: of expectation all the time and I see this in 153 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: the same thing and in fact, in the postcap press 154 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: conference that was one of the comments either from the 155 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: PM or willis that managers aren't doing this. And the 156 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: opening line from the government around this was about ill 157 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: managed working from home, So this isn't what Josie's talking about. 158 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: When you manage this stuff well, because you want to 159 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: keep a person this. 160 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: This is ninety five percent of the SFO, ninety four 161 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: percent of the Ministry for Environment, all on flexible words. 162 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and there's no Not only is the 163 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,679 Speaker 2: sort of a lack of data around it, which means 164 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 2: no one's really worried about it, and so there's that 165 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: old saying if you can't measure it, you can't manage it. 166 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: I think also this is smart retail politics from the 167 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: government because he's long been this feeling that the public 168 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: sector they locked everyone else at home during COVID went 169 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 2: off to the wider appa to spend time at the 170 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: batch and they've never really come back, but everyone else has. Yes, 171 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: So I think it's good from that perspective, But it's 172 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: there are two separate issues here. One is which is 173 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 2: the real issue, it's around performance and productivity in the 174 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: public sector. The separate issue is about the slow death 175 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: of Wellington and the two are very separate issues and 176 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: need to be seen as such. But I think the 177 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: government is doing the right thing. The one thing that 178 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: did interest me though, not doing a humble brag about 179 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: skyving off for a few weeks, but talking to friends 180 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 2: in London where there's still a huge amount of flexibility, 181 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: Like you know, they are in the office really only 182 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: about three days a week. But I think in that 183 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: case a lot of it is about the commute and 184 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: making it easier for people who might have a two 185 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: hour commute. 186 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: But I think it's the right thing. 187 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 3: Saying that I suppose I'm saying. I think it's good politics. 188 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 3: You're right, Trish, But what I'm saying is that I 189 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 3: wish the government was saying, actually, you know, MB, whatever 190 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 3: public department it is, what are you doing to actually 191 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 3: increase productivity in New Zealand, you know, grow our economy, 192 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 3: invest in R and D, invest in skills. I don't know, 193 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 3: but are you actually delivering outcomes? And I don't care 194 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 3: if you're sitting at home doing that, as long as 195 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 3: you're not renovating or sitting in the office. And I 196 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: think that's the letter of expectation I would. I mean, 197 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 3: I want to see far more of a of a 198 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 3: revolutionary reform of the public sector than just going Are 199 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: you at home in the office or are you at 200 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: the office in the office. 201 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, guys, listen, really appreciate it. It's really good 202 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: shorts you and it's very nice to have you back. Trish, 203 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: thank you, and yeah, you can probably humble brag a 204 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: few more weeks. 205 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: No, I think one week, one more. 206 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: I think I've probably got one more day in my 207 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: office and then I'm done, because. 208 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: Have you been doing that art? Did you know? I 209 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: just came back from France. 210 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: Things, Trish, work from home, work from home, and then 211 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: you won't annoy. 212 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: If everybody's mental health. Hey, guys, thank you. Tris Sharson 213 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: and Joseph they hudle this evening eight away from six. 214 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 215 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 216 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio.