1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: It was this day four years ago Russia rolled into 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Ukraine and we've largely been bogged down since Europe is 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,159 Speaker 1: now Ukraine's largest military and financial backer. The arrival of 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: the Trump administration of courses raised serious questions around NATO 5 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: and its future. The EU has been made to step 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: up on defense spending, while the much touted peace steel 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: is seemingly well, we know it hasn't happened. We wonder 8 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: whether a level will. Lawrence Meredith is the EU ambassador 9 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: to this country and he's back with us on the program. 10 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: Good to see you in person. 11 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: Great to be back with you, mate. 12 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: How does it end the war? 13 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 3: Well, what we need to see is Russia has brutally 14 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 3: and illegally invaded Ukraine. And the only outcome possible for 15 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 3: all those of us who believe in the rules based 16 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 3: international order is Ukraine's victory within its sovereign territories. They've 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 3: Russia's walked into a sovereign country as completely unacceptable. 18 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: How does Ukraine win? 19 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 2: Then? 20 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 3: Ukraine wins by strong support from all like mind the Dallas. 21 00:00:58,200 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: We've got the coalition of the willing. 22 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 3: I believe the prime ministers are going to be on 23 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 3: the call later the day European Union strongly committed, as 24 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 3: you said, one. 25 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: Hundred and ninety billion euros. It's an enormous sum. 26 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 3: New Zealand stead for us SO and they've got creative technologies, 27 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: the drone technologies, by the way, some of them provided 28 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 3: by the fantastic SCIOs company samvai here I really had Chile, 29 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 3: and they're causing real headaches to the Russian army. 30 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: The twong the company is a great story. Having said that, 31 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: the drone thing, that the ingenuity of the Ukrainian people 32 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: has been one of the great listeners of this conflict, 33 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: hasn't it. 34 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 3: Let's remember that four years ago everybody and we were 35 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 3: just talking about this. Everybody thought it was going to 36 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 3: be over in days. The Russian Army far too powerful. 37 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 3: Hasn't happened at all. So all these doom sayers, I 38 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 3: think they're completely wrong. I should say I was in 39 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: Ukraine the first time in two thousand. I've been over 40 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,919 Speaker 3: thirty times to Ukraine. I know the country really, really well. 41 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 3: People massively underestimated the Ukrainian people and I was with 42 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 3: them on the on Silo Park just on some They 43 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 3: just to mark this awful for the anniversary but also 44 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: to affirm their confidence in their path to victory. 45 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: Is Zelensky as big a hero now as he was then? 46 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: Do you think? 47 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 3: I think Zelenski's fundamental. I think he's been exceptional and 48 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 3: he is an amazing strategic communicator, amazing organizer. Can you 49 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 3: imagine actually running a government successfully for four years in 50 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 3: the middle of this awful war? 51 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: How do you balance? Well, how does Europe balance? I 52 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: mean they pulled the guy, one of his key people 53 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: off the train the other day trying to leave the country. 54 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: I mean, Ukraine is not squeaky clean and never has been. 55 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: How does Europe face that side of Ukraine? 56 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: Well, on the other hand, it shows it's working. 57 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 3: The system in all systems are unfortunately bad eggs, and 58 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 3: they've actually arrested a minister. They've found there's been a 59 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 3: problem and they've taken action. So there are checks and balances, 60 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 3: and that's in the middle of a crucial water So 61 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 3: you're right that, of course, it's definitely not, as you say, 62 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 3: squeaky clean, but it's made substantial progress and it's focusing 63 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 3: we do eu opin union as a report or not 64 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: just on Ukraine but on all the countries applying and 65 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 3: we really assess her rigorously and they have made to progress. 66 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: What have you learned or what has Europe learned about itself? 67 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: Do you think as a collective in the last four 68 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: years we need. 69 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: To stand up and do a lot more for our 70 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: own defense. 71 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 3: And President on Theerline was crystal clear on this at 72 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: the Munich Security Conference. And we do that because the 73 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 3: Ukrainians are fighting for peace and freedom, not just their 74 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 3: peace and freedom, but that of the free world. This 75 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: is a global conflict at this point, and it's really 76 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 3: important that the right side wins. 77 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: Do you give Trump credit for bringing Europe perhaps kicking 78 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: and screaming to a reality they might not have come 79 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: to otherwise. 80 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: This is Europe's own decision. 81 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: Europe is standing up for its own autonomy, and we've 82 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 3: committed to eight hundred billion euros ramping up defense, and 83 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: we've got really creative technology. He's got the world's largest 84 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: research and innovation program Horizon Europe. By the way, New 85 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 3: Zealand's the first global partner. 86 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: Right can Europe hand on heart win the war without America. 87 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 3: It's better to win it with America. But we need 88 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: to win this war with Ukraine. And we've got a 89 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 3: broad coalition of the wedding or meet later to day. 90 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 3: So we need to do everything it takes to support 91 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 3: Ukraine's victory. 92 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: And does anything change. I'm just trying to work through 93 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: with four years and counting. And last week there was 94 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: a story that Ukraine got a little more territory than 95 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: they have lately. Then you'll hear the story of Russia 96 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: getting a little more territory than they have been lately. 97 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: And there seems to be a line militarily that Europe 98 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: won't cross in terms of long term, long range missiles 99 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: things like that. Will that conversation, do you think in 100 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: the ensuing period change or not? 101 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 3: I think you've seen evolution throughout the war war when 102 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 3: we've delivered on what Ukraine wants. Sometimes it's been hard 103 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 3: to reach those decisions. Sometimes it's come later than Zelensky 104 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: would have wanted. But we've put in place nineteen packages 105 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 3: of sanctions against Russia. And by the way, some people say, oh, 106 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 3: they're not working, well, then Putin's making a hell of 107 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: an effort to stop them. If they're not working, they're 108 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: really working. The Russian economy is on its knees. You 109 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 3: do never hear that on the press. 110 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: Well, that was funny enough. My next question, you do 111 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: hear it a bit? I've never been able to work 112 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: out how true it is. 113 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 3: It's absolutely for sure true. So the European Union, that 114 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 3: was heavily dependent before the war on Russian coal, oil 115 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 3: and gas has pivoted amazingly away. We're out of the coal, 116 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 3: we're out of the oil, and we're down to fifteen 117 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: percent of our imports coming from Russian gas. We're working 118 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 3: on it, will be out of it completely by the 119 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 3: autumn next year. 120 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: Right, what do you do with hungry who are in 121 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: the news this morning? Year again vetoing, Well. 122 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 3: As I said, we've agreed on nineteen packages of assistance 123 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 3: with a put an undred and ninety billion euros on 124 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: the table for Ukraine. Sure, like in any family, some 125 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 3: of the decisions are difficult to reach, but we've got 126 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 3: there and I'm confident will continue to support Ukraine as 127 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: the European Union. 128 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: If the Middle East hadn't happened, if Iran wasn't happening, 129 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: would the focus on the war have been completely different? 130 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 3: Do you think, Listen, there's always been tensions across the world. 131 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 3: My job as European Union ambassador here is to present 132 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 3: Europe's strong commitment to Ukraine. 133 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: Talk to me about trade. Do you know anything more 134 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: than any of us know at the present point in 135 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 1: time as to who's paying? 136 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: What? 137 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: Is there a refund check in the mail? 138 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 2: Oh? On that one. No. 139 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 3: But what I want to say is New Zealand's deal 140 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 3: with the European Union is worth over two billion dollars 141 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 3: to New Zealand exporters. Europe's very excited about it, big 142 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 3: investments coming in. VS just moved into purchase Fletcher's. We've 143 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 3: seen down Meet's purchase Alliance Win. 144 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: That sounds like an invasion to mate. Not necessarily a deal. 145 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 3: No, not at all. I think it's a two way deal. 146 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: Ask us despri what they think of the deal? 147 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, fair enough to as regards what happened with 148 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: Scotus though over the weekend and the votes were put 149 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: off in Europe overnight. In terms of the trade deals, 150 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: you've done. What happens? 151 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: Do we know? What's what I mean? 152 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 3: Commissioner Marashevsovich was here in New Zealand. He loved it, 153 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 3: by the way, and he's committed to building on Europe's 154 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 3: extensive network. 155 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: Of new deals. 156 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 3: We're committed to free trade like New Zealand, we need 157 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 3: free trade in this world. 158 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: Do you think free trade will win ultimately? 159 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 3: I think ultimately it will, Yeah, because it's all the 160 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 3: economics says it's better for everybody, and we're sticking up 161 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 3: for that. We've got we had over seventy six we're 162 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 3: moving closer to eighty trade deals. New Zealand's cutting deals. 163 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 3: Those of us who are believe in it, the CPTPP, 164 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 3: there's a good one for your audience to run a 165 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: quiz on that comprehensive and progressive transpecific partnership and practicing 166 00:07:59,280 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 3: that one. 167 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good. 168 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: It's good. 169 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: We're free traders and we've argued for it all along, 170 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: so hopefully it works out well. Nice to see you 171 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: appreciate it. See Laurence Meredith, who is the EU Ambassador 172 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: for more from the Mic Asking Breakfast. 173 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: Listen live to news talks. 174 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast 175 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.