1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:00,640 Speaker 1: Killed her. 2 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 2: Just a quick content warning. This episode contains references to 3 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: intimate partner violence and abuse, including sexual abuse. There's also 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: discussion around suicide. Please see our show notes for details 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: of support services and take care. This podcast is funded 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 2: by New Zealand. 7 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 3: On air, I had become so convinced that it was 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 3: my fault that we were constantly in poverty, and that 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 3: we were hungry, and that my kids were hungry. I 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: was so convinced that it was because of my rebellious, 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 3: disobedience nature that I decided the only honorable way out 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 3: of that was to end my life, because then my 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 3: husband would be free to marry somebody righteous. 14 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: This is Caroline. She's one of the people who commented 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: online after I had published a series of articles about 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: the wealth of the Mormon Church in Alta Roa, New 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: Zealand a couple of years ago, and when I gave 18 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: her a call, she was the person who first made 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: me realize there was a whole other story to be 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: told about the lives of church members. 21 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 3: I taped myself off from everything I tried to predict myself. 22 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: Caroline's not her real name, and during our phone conversation 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: in mid twenty twenty two. We agreed I wouldn't use 24 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: this recording without her permission. I was interested in meeting 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: her face to face and getting a properly recorded interview. 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 3: I've made a good effort to be obedient to God. 27 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 3: I obviously am too rebellious and evil. 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: But Caroline was unsure. She's been in therapy. She has 29 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: a lot of insight now about what happened to her 30 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: and the effects that linger. She was worried that talking 31 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: it through yet again might be a bad idea, retraumatizing. 32 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: Even so, she said I could tell her story, but 33 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: without actually using her voice and without a repeat interview. 34 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: But then, just recently, as I was wrapping up the 35 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: final bits of reporting for this podcast, I checked in 36 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: with Caroline and she'd had a change of heart. She 37 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: would do a face to face interview, though she'd bring 38 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: her therapist with her just in case. She felt the 39 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: stakes were too high not to do it, because if 40 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: making her story public would mean other women like her 41 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to go through what she went through, it 42 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: would definitely be worth it. 43 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 4: Ding another warning sign. 44 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 3: A commander to marry me. 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 5: I told my bishop, I'll just tell the. 46 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: Helpline and they can make it all go away? 47 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 4: Who was speaking to my? 48 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: Name is Murray Jones and this is Heaven's Helpline, A 49 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: six part New Zealand Herald investigation into the Mormon Church 50 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: in Alter Roa and beyond. Episode two. This changes everything. 51 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: I met Caroline and her therapist in a community center 52 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: not far from her home. I started with my usual 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: mic check question. Okay, could I just ask you what 54 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: you had for breakfast? 55 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 3: I had an egg on toast in a pippermint tea 56 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 3: and a bundle of knaves. 57 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 6: So is it working? 58 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: That's great? Yeah, you're coming through, nice and clude. Caroline's 59 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: journey through Mormon life starts pretty conventionally because as a rule, 60 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: you're usually born into the church, or it goes like this. 61 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 3: I was five years old. The missionary is knocked on 62 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: the door. My parents lit them in. They liked what 63 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 3: they learned, and then they decided to join. 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: After this visit from the missionaries, life in Caroline's family 65 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: changed dramatically, mostly for the better. 66 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 3: My father was an alcoholic, and so then he stopped drinking. 67 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 3: We went from that sort of party drinking environment to 68 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 3: going to church and being very involved in all the meetings. 69 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: Caroline remembers it being a very social time. 70 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: The missionaries were fun. They were young men, they playful, 71 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: they were like big brothers. They had a lot to 72 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 3: do with us because we were new members, and that's 73 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 3: how it works. 74 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: There were lots of church activities for. 75 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,799 Speaker 3: Kids, singing and playing games, and so church was fun 76 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: at that stage. Yeah, it was a good memory. 77 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: You're doing great, Okay. Caroline's parents were New Zealanders, but 78 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: at the time of their conversion to the Olds Church, 79 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: they were living in Australia and back then there was 80 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: no temple in Australia. 81 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 3: So it made sense to go back to New Zealand 82 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 3: where they could be married in the Temple. 83 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: You'll remember from the first episode that for Mormons, the 84 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: temple is a huge deal. There are various rituals, ordinances 85 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: they're called, that can be done nowhere except at the Temple. 86 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: That includes baptisms, confirmations, priesthood ordinations, weekly sacraments, and the 87 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: temple weddings. So Caroline's family left Australia and relocated to 88 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: Temple View in Hamilton, and at thirteen Caroline went to 89 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: Church College, the secondary school in Temple View run by 90 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: the church. She kept herself to herself. 91 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 3: I was a painfully shy person, and I didn't mix 92 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 3: or interact much with other people. 93 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: She had other things to worry about. Faith had helped 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: her father give up the drink, but things still weren't 95 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: exactly peaceful at home. 96 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 3: My brothers and I would hear my dad whistling as 97 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: he came down the drive, and that would be our 98 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 3: warning to disappear. Dad's coming, and we're not safe now, 99 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 3: because he was a completely different person when he walked 100 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: through the door. So one minute he could be very 101 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: cheerful and happy and you could be his favorite child, 102 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 3: and the next it could suddenly switch, so you were 103 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 3: just constantly on the edge of your seat. His main 104 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: form of violence was to grab the nearest thing, which 105 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 3: was usually a glass of water, and throw it at 106 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 3: your head. I saw it and put my brother's heads 107 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 3: through the wall a couple of times. 108 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: He was also disrespectful, even cruel, towards Caroline's mother. The 109 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: environment of fear created by her father wasn't something the 110 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: family ever discussed with anyone outside the home. In fact, 111 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: Caroline's dad was a really popular figure in the community, 112 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 1: so people would. 113 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 3: Say to me, oh, you must have been a great dad. 114 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 3: I would have loved of her dad like. 115 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: That, which left Caroline pretty confused. 116 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 3: I would wonder why I was so unhappy and why 117 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 3: I wasn't grateful for what I had because other people 118 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: were wishing that they had it. 119 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: At home, her father was the boss of everything. 120 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: Who could speak at the dinner table, where we would go, 121 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: who we hung out worth, to control. 122 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: All the money, and he made no apology for that. 123 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: The reasoning that he gave for his control was that 124 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: he was the priesthood leader, which is church teachings at 125 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 3: the father is the leader of the home. He knows 126 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 3: what's best for the family, and that's his role and 127 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 3: it mustn't be questioned. 128 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: We'll come back to Caroline in a moment, but I 129 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: just want to explain what she means by priesthood leader, 130 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: because it's important. Caroline's father was well respected in the community, 131 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: but having a priesthood position in itself that was nothing special. 132 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: Because in the LDS Church almost anyone can become what's 133 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: known as a priesthood holder. Well by anyone, I mean 134 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: any man, of course, scratch that, any boy, because at 135 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: the age of twelve, every Mormon lad is eligible to 136 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: become a priesthood holder. Keep your nose clean spiritually speaking, 137 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: and you'll rattle through the ranks simply by getting older. 138 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: You're a deacon at twelve, a teacher at fourteen, a 139 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: priest at sixteen. Then as an adult, you graduate to 140 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: the second tier of priesthood positions. At eighteen, you're an elder, 141 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: and after elder there's a bunch more ranks and positions 142 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: to aspire to high priest, bishop and state president. Further 143 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: up the ladder, you can be a seventy an apostle, 144 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: and finally top dog, the president of the church, who 145 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: is considered a prophet. He's like the Mormon equivalent of 146 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,479 Speaker 1: the pope, but relative to those further down the hierarchy 147 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,359 Speaker 1: from you, you are a priesthood leader. And the hierarchy 148 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: also applies in the domestic realm. If you're a married woman, 149 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: your priesthood leader is your husband. For a girl or 150 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: any unmarried woman, it's your dad. For a teenage boy, 151 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: it's also your dad. And because only men have status 152 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: in this hierarchy, there can be some interesting outcomes. I 153 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: spoke to a guy called Mike Camick about growing up 154 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: in a Mormon congregation in christ Church in the nineteen nineties, 155 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: and he has a good example of how this can 156 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: play out. 157 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 6: They would say stuff to you like, oh, you got 158 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 6: the priesthood. You know, if no men showed up a 159 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 6: church today and it was just us, woman, you would 160 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 6: be in charge. 161 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: And how old was Mike when he could be in charge? Thirteen? 162 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 6: Right, And they'd say that to me in a room 163 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 6: of thirty forty fifty sixty year old woman with jobs 164 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 6: and professional careers and experience that my role as a man, 165 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 6: as a priesthood holder, which is gender specific, my position 166 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 6: as a thirteen year old man, puts me in a 167 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 6: position of superiority, in a position of leadership over at 168 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 6: above e any woman in the community. 169 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: Being a priesthood holder means you're considered a good, upstanding 170 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: man in the church and have the authority to act 171 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: for God. 172 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 5: If you are a priesthood man, the assumption is that 173 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 5: Jesus is working through you. 174 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: That's doctor Gina Colvin, the church member turned critic we 175 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: heard from briefly in the first episode. In short, if 176 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: you disagree with Dad, you are defying the priesthood authority, 177 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: which in some homes meant you might as well be 178 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: disagreeing with God. So back to Caroline, as she entered 179 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: her teens, it just seemed like things didn't add up 180 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: at home. Her father was a violent, cruel tyrant, but 181 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: according to church teachings, he was the boss. Yet at 182 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: the same time, she was hearing other church teachings which 183 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: insisted women were equal partners in marriage. Caroline didn't see 184 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: how that could work. How could women be subservient to 185 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: their priesthood leader husband and equal at the same time. 186 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: She took this question and others to her local church leaders. 187 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 3: What I expected was that my leaders would answer the 188 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 3: questions and then it would be cleared up for me. Instead, 189 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 3: they found my questions very unsettling. 190 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: And they visited her parents to talk to them about 191 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 1: their daughter who asks awkward questions. The message Caroline was 192 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: getting was that the problem lay not with the church 193 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: teachings or her father's controlling behavior, but with her. 194 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 3: Because I'm living in this community where everybody is accepting 195 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,359 Speaker 3: and believing and fully on board with everything that's being taught, 196 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 3: and I'm having major difficulties with it. So I am 197 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: internally going what's wrong with me? Why is this a 198 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 3: struggle for me? Why do I not want to be. 199 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: A mother, because that was part of the problem. The 200 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: path that was being laid out for Caroline didn't seem 201 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: very appealing. 202 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: I wanted to have a career, I wanted to have 203 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 3: a job, and I wanted to be educated. 204 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: To be clear, the LDS Church is definitely supportive of girls' education. 205 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: Working hard and applying yourself at school, regardless of gender, 206 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: is central to their ethos, but Caroline says the messaging 207 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 1: she received emphasized that for girls it was somewhat secondary. 208 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 3: We're taught from a very young age that our purpose 209 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 3: and our role in life is to be a mother 210 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 3: and to raise children, and that's our first and highest priority. 211 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: Caroline set her sights on higher education. She loved art 212 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: and literature and was offered a scholarship to Brigham Young 213 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: University in Hawaii, named after the Mormon leader who succeeded 214 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: Joseph Smith in the eighteen forties. But before she could 215 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: take up that offer, something happened. 216 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 3: There was an incident at home where my father punched me, 217 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 3: and I turned around and punched him. 218 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: Back, so he kicked her out. 219 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 3: I had a couple of hours to pack, and I 220 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 3: was on the street with no clue at all how 221 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 3: to take care of myself and terrified. 222 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: Caroline briefly stayed with acquaintances in Temple View, but then 223 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: her aunt in Australia invited her to live with her. 224 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: Eighteen months later, her father had cooled down and she 225 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: came back, but byu Hawaii a degree, that opportunity had passed. 226 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 3: All my plans to study kind of went out the window. 227 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: Caroline, now twenty one, is reunited with her family back 228 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: at the Temple, but she still has those frustratingly familiar 229 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: doubts about the church, and this time round, she wants 230 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: to figure it out. 231 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 3: I was reading a lot of scripture. I was doing 232 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 3: a lot of study to try and figure out whether 233 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: I was really going to stay in this or not. 234 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 3: Those questions I had kit private, I wasn't sharing them. 235 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: So she was startled when in church one day a 236 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: young man approached her and asked, are. 237 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 3: You having questions about the church? And I thought the 238 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 3: Holy Ghost had led him to me to answer my questions, 239 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: because how could he have known? And I said yes, 240 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 3: And he set himself up as a teacher of me, 241 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 3: and he started teaching me and instructing me. And I 242 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 3: took that as an answer to my prayers that yes, 243 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: I am supposed to stay in the church, and God 244 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 3: has sent me somebody who can answer my questions. 245 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: Caroline was blown away by this guy's encyclopedic knowledge of 246 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: Mormon theology. 247 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: A huge scriptural knowledge, and ability to recall facts and 248 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: information and quotes from leaders. That was just extraordinary. And 249 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 3: I received a lot of instruction from him. 250 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: But this was not your typical Bible study group. This 251 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: guy demanded a lot of Caroline. 252 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 3: I was memorizing huge quantities of scripture as per his instructions. 253 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 3: He was keeping me up late at night with scripture study, 254 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 3: you know, waking me up in the earliest hours of 255 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 3: the morning to continue with the scripture study, getting me 256 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 3: to fast and pray. And it was intense, it was 257 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: full on. I was very distressed at the intensity of it. 258 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 3: I would ask him to stop, but he would just 259 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 3: sho up again the next day. And I was too 260 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: well trained to be polite and to be obedient to men, 261 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 3: and so I didn't assert myself any more than that. 262 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: Weeks passed in a blur. Caroline was short of sleep, 263 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: she was hungry. She was reading the same parts of 264 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: scripture again and again, attempting to humble herself in the 265 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: service of God. Then three months after they had first met, 266 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: this man had a new command for Caroline. 267 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: I want you to go to the temple. I want 268 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: you to fast for this period of time, and I 269 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: want you to pray about whether or not we should 270 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 3: be married. And I'm like, what because we weren't dating 271 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: and it wasn't romance. It was scripture instructure. But I thought, okay, 272 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 3: I need to be humble. You know, this isn't what 273 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 3: I want, but I need to do what God wants, 274 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 3: you know, lose myself in the service of God. All 275 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: this stuff that my head was being filled with. So 276 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 3: I went to the temple, I followed those instructions. I 277 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: prayed about it. I went back and met with this 278 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 3: young man. I didn't tell him what the answer was. 279 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: And I can't really explain this, but I felt this 280 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 3: wave of spiritual energy and he said to me, did 281 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: you feel that? And I said yes, And he said 282 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: that was the Holy Ghost telling you that you are 283 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 3: commanded to marry me, which I believed. I didn't like it. 284 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: I wasn't happy about it. He knew that I didn't 285 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: love he knew that I was just marrying her out 286 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 3: of commanment to God. So that was the end of 287 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 3: any leaving the church or getting a career or studying. 288 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 3: I started on down the road of marriage and children. 289 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: It's been just three months since Caroline was first approached 290 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: by this guy, and this conversation about marriage seems to 291 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: have been done and dusted in a matter of days. 292 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: But in the Mormon community, that kind of speed is 293 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: not unusual. The courtships of people in their early twenties 294 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: sometimes last just a few weeks. After all, why would 295 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: you wait? There are loads of incentives to tie the knock. 296 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: Marrying in the temple meant a couple were sealed so 297 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: that the whole family could end up together for eternity 298 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: in the afterlife, and it's a vital step in your 299 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 1: faith journey. Only those who are married in the temple 300 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: can reach what's called the highest degree of glory in heaven. 301 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: As Gina explains. 302 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 5: That's the only way that you realize your divine potential 303 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 5: is to be sealed. 304 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: It's just what you do, and it sort of means 305 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: the rest of your life is laid out for you 306 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: and your future partner. 307 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 5: If I marry a returned missionary, who's a worthy priest 308 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 5: or a holder. It would be white picket fencers for 309 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 5: the rest of my life. 310 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: Married men get the white picket fences too, but for them, 311 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: getting married also opens up doors to leadership positions within 312 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: the church. Gayleen, the woman who learned about chastity with 313 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: the help of a white cake and a handful of dirt, 314 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: remembers there was a saying you'd hear in the church. 315 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 7: That any boy that was twenty eight years old and 316 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 7: still single as a menace to society. That is a 317 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 7: quote from the prophet. 318 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: The line is often attributed to Brigham Young, and depending 319 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: which Mormon website you're reading, he actually said over the 320 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: age of twenty one or twenty five ory and in 321 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: fact it may not have even been Brigham Young who 322 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: said it. Apocryphal or not, this line still does its work, 323 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: adding to the pressure to find your mate as quickly 324 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: as possible, but it's not always easy finding the perfect 325 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: match right. 326 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 7: The other idea that encouraged you to get married was 327 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 7: that any two people living the Gospel could have a 328 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 7: happy marriage, so you didn't have to be particularly careful 329 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 7: with your choys. 330 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: And even if you were getting the jitters about rushing 331 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: into a marriage. Many Mormons believed that the Holy Ghost 332 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: would guide them. I heard several stories where divine inspiration 333 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: was central to a courtship, like when Gina's husband proposed 334 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: to her. 335 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 5: You know, I really feel the spirit telling you that 336 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 5: we're supposed to be togither and you're my angel, blah 337 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 5: blah blah blahlah blah, and am I hit I'm going, Oh, 338 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 5: get off the grass boy. And I said to him 339 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 5: a lot, you're just infatuated. You'll get over it. Everybody does. 340 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 5: But there was still the element of maybe he's right. 341 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 5: Maybe as talking to God. 342 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: Whatever was going on, Gina and her husband didn't muck around. 343 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: He got home from his mission in June. 344 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 5: We got together in August, we were married in September. 345 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: And of course, when it comes to the urgency behind 346 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: some marriages, we can't ignore the elephant in the room, 347 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: the rule of chastity. 348 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 5: Mormon's are pretty horny, you know, and you can't have six. 349 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 5: It's like it's just good at damn. I mean, no 350 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 5: horny than everybody else. But I think the untouchability of 351 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 5: it sort of escalates, you know, the fervors. 352 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: So Caroline wasn't an outlier, really, Plenty of Mormon women 353 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: were marrying young, marrying fast, feeling some doubts, but trusting 354 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: in divine revelation, trusting in the Church's traditions about the 355 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: value and the nature of a marriage. Sure, she didn't 356 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: actually like her husband to be at all. He reminded 357 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: her of her father, but she believed him when he 358 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: said the Holy Ghost had instructed them to be wed, 359 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: so they got on with it. Before she could be 360 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: married in the temple, though, Caroline had one other important 361 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: thing to do, the endowment. The endowment is one of 362 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: the most significant things you do as a Mormon. It's 363 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: a ceremony reserve for temple worthy adults that takes two 364 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: or three hours all up. The actual rituals used to 365 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: be pretty secret. That's no longer true in the Internet age. 366 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: But when Caroline turned up for the endowment, she didn't 367 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: have a clue what to expect, and she found it 368 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,479 Speaker 1: totally weird. 369 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 3: The men all go off to one side of the 370 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 3: temple which is just for the men, and the women 371 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 3: go off to one side which is just for the women. 372 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 3: You are to remove all your clothing and you put 373 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 3: on a gown that covers you, but it's open at 374 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 3: the sides. 375 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: You then pass through a series of sections divided by curtains, 376 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: and in each section a church worker male for the men, 377 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: female for the women, recites some scripture and performs a 378 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: particular ritual, washing the head with water, dotting Holy O 379 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: Eil on various points of the body, the sternum, the hip, 380 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: the lower back. He or she also provides special white 381 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: full body undergarments marked with some sacred symbols, which as 382 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: a Mormon, you're supposed to wear for the rest of 383 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: your adult life. 384 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 8: You were informed that it will be a shield and 385 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 8: a protection to you inasmuch as you do not defile it. 386 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: After the washing and anointing and dressing, you watch a video. 387 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: As I said, endowment isn't so secret now it's on 388 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: the internet. This audio is from a hidden recording someone's 389 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: posted on YouTube. 390 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 8: Adam, here's a woman whom we have formed and whom 391 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 8: we give under you to be a companion and help 392 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 8: me for you. What will you call her? 393 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 4: Eve? 394 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 8: We will place you in the garden, and will there 395 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 8: command you to multiply and replenish the earth. 396 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: That video Caroline watched, which shows in all almost all 397 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: the Mormon temples in the world depicts, as you just heard, 398 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: the biblical story of the Garden of Eden, then explains 399 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: the commitments you need to make to live a good 400 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: Mormon life. 401 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 8: To sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives, 402 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 8: if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God. 403 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 8: Each of you bow your head and say yes, yes, 404 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 8: that will do. 405 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: One commitment Caroline especially remembers was called the Law of 406 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: Obedience and sacrifice. 407 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 3: Will you make covenance and promises to obey your husband 408 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: and follow him and be obedient and be submissive. 409 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,959 Speaker 1: Endowment was meant to prepare Caroline for life as a 410 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: Mormon and to make her ready for marriage, but the 411 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: ceremony left her feeling quite uncertain about both. 412 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 3: I really remember thinking this is really really weird. The 413 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 3: rituals that are waving your hands, the taking clothes on 414 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 3: and off, it just went up another level of weird. 415 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: After the ceremony, I sat on the grass on the 416 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: top of the hill at the temple and thought, what 417 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: do I belong to? 418 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 3: What is this organization I'm involved in? Is this what 419 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 3: I believe? Is this? Is this for real? 420 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: Aside from these spiritual doubts. She was also still having 421 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: doubts about her husband to be, so she did what 422 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: you're meant to do if you have a problem. She 423 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: asked to see her ward bishop. 424 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 3: The bishop quite a few times met with me and said, 425 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 3: you need to talk to your mother. You need to 426 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 3: talk to your mother. And I said, what do you mean? 427 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 3: What are you talking about? What about? So I'd have 428 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 3: some half hearted conversations with my mother. I had no 429 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 3: idea what it was I was supposed to be asking 430 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 3: her or talking about. She had no idea either. I 431 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 3: think she she shared some recipes with me, like we 432 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 3: were just completely clueless what their construction meant. It was 433 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 3: too vague. 434 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: Much later Caroline would figure out what the bishop had 435 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: been trying to convey with his cryptic and frankly useless 436 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: marital advice. It turned out the bishops suspected even then 437 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: that her husband to be really was a menace to society. 438 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 3: He had a reputation, and he'd practiced with a few 439 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 3: women before he got. 440 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: To me that intense, controlling connection he'd made with Caroline. 441 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: He'd done it before to other women, but they'd managed 442 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: to push back. One young woman had even taken out 443 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: a protection order against this guy. 444 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 3: I was easy pray. 445 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: Caroline doesn't know if her bishop was aware of that 446 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 1: protection order specifically, but still, when she talked to him 447 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: many years later, he. 448 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 3: Said, oh, I knew he was trouble. Who never told me. 449 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: Caroline and her suitor got married, and with astonishing speed, 450 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: she found herself inside a claustrophobic nightmare. Her new husband 451 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: was a passionate scholar of scripture, but he wasn't so 452 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: useful as a breadwinner. He didn't seem to hang on 453 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: to jobs for long, and every few months he'd received 454 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: divine inspiration telling him they needed to move house, move town, 455 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: and eventually move country. 456 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 3: We were constantly on the move. We were sometimes homeless. 457 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 3: We were living in an absolute abject poverty. 458 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes there was no furniture and they'd be sleeping on 459 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: the floor. 460 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 3: We often didn't have enough food. 461 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: Caroline had fallen pregnant soon after the marriage, and over 462 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: the following three years she had two children, but also 463 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: two miscarriages. 464 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 3: I was almost always in a state of pregnancy without 465 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 3: medical care, or almost medical care. 466 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: Caroline believes the constant moves were partly designed to separate 467 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: her from her support networks. 468 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 3: I was completely segregated from all of my relatives, from family, 469 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 3: from any friends that I may have had. All of 470 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 3: those relationships were damaged or destroyed or ended under his instruction. 471 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: When letters arrived from friends and family for Caroline, he 472 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: would open them. Some he would read to her. Others 473 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: he'd destroy, saying they'd only upset her. A year and 474 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: a half into the marriage, without any notice, men came 475 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: to the house in Hamilton and took all their possessions, 476 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: including a treasured quilt from her mother. Caroline's husband announced 477 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 1: that he'd given everything away to a charity shop and 478 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: they were shortly to be flying to Sydney. They arrived 479 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: with no money and nowhere to live. Caroline was able 480 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: to collect a benefit because of her upbringing, but it 481 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: didn't stretch far, and in any case, her husband controlled 482 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: all the money, and the constant moving continued. Sometimes they 483 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: do a runner without paying the landlord. Often Caroline had 484 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: little more than the clothes on her back. The suitcase 485 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: that they took from new home to new home was 486 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: instead filled with her husband's books to sate his obsessive 487 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: interest in psychology. Yet the material deprivation wasn't even the 488 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: worst of it. 489 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 3: He was intensely controlling, to a level beyond my father, 490 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 3: beyond anything that I even knew was possible to exist. 491 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,479 Speaker 3: I was never out of his sight for a moment. 492 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 3: He's always accompanied me. 493 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: On the very rare occasions they were apart, like for 494 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: gender specific church groups. 495 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 3: I had to relate to him verbatim ire conversation that 496 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 3: I'd had that he was not therefore, and it got 497 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 3: to a point where I couldn't recall accurately or sufficiently 498 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 3: enough those conversations. So I would stop talking to people 499 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 3: because it was too difficult to remember everything, and I 500 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 3: would be grilled for hours afterwards. We caught a taxi. 501 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 3: Once I said thank you to the taxi driver, I 502 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 3: was in trouble for hours because I did not have 503 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 3: his permission to say thank you. 504 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: There were so many different ways Caroline could anger her. 505 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 3: Husband, disobedience, having an independent thought, questioning him, even if 506 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 3: it was done humbly or respectfully. He mustn't be questioned. 507 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 3: He's suppressed a leader, So when I disobeyed him, there 508 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 3: were punishments. 509 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: Just a quick content warning here for sexual assault Skip 510 00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: forward about a minute. 511 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 3: If you he had this idea that if I was 512 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 3: not submissive, A way to make me submissive would be 513 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: to rape me. He felt that the less I wanted 514 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 3: to sleep with him, the more important it was that 515 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 3: he did so that I would learn to submit and obey, 516 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 3: and that it would bring us closer together, and he 517 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 3: would use various scriptures to back up that behavior. The 518 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:41,479 Speaker 3: very first time he attacked me, I went and was 519 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 3: completely detached and didn't really feel anything. Most of the 520 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 3: time that I was there. There are big gaps of 521 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 3: memory that had just gone. 522 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: Carolina had just given birth to their second child when 523 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: her husband got some good news. An old Hamilton's school friend, 524 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: now living in Western Australia, offered him a job. That 525 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: old friend, another man in his mid twenties, was John Campbell, 526 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: who he heard from very briefly in the previous episode. 527 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: John was a return missionary, a married man, a father, 528 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: and he was in Western Australia to earn a bit 529 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: of money. 530 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 4: Quite a significant mining and district going on over there, 531 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 4: lots of jobs, lots of good paying jobs. 532 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: John had quickly connected with the local LDS church and 533 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: to his surprise. 534 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 4: I became the branch president. 535 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: So a branch is a congregation that's too small to 536 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: be a ward. So a branch president is like a 537 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: scaled down bishop for a scaled down congregation. So when 538 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: Caroline's family arrived, John pulled them into local church life 539 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: as well, and he was struck by how this old 540 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: school friend had become an absolute master of Mormon theology. 541 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 4: He knew his scriptures could speak extremely well on the subject, 542 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 4: on any subject, no notice whatsoever, so he was almost 543 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 4: the prototype Mormon. 544 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: But once John met Caroline, he noticed someone not doing 545 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: so well. 546 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 4: It was something off about her. 547 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: Immediately John asked his friend what was going on with 548 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: his wife, but he brushed it off as postnatal depression. 549 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 4: Sounded reasonable. You could look at that and say, hey, okay, 550 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 4: I can see that's what you're suffering from. Post antal depression. 551 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: John arranged for families to drop off a few meals 552 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: at Caroline's door. 553 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 4: This is a pretty standard thing that Mormons do as 554 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 4: someone feeling a bit offu whatnot, meals can be lined 555 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 4: up at their door and with one phone call. 556 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: But he was still watchful. John asked his sister, who 557 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: was head of the church women's group, the Relief Society, 558 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: to check in on Caroline, and he dropped in on 559 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: the couple himself. During one of those visits, John got 560 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: the strong impression that Caroline wanted to say something to him, 561 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: but was actually too scared to say it. 562 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 4: And they just sent alarm bells ringing. 563 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: Next move was he now realizes a bad one. 564 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 4: Being young and dumb stupid. Later on I spoke to 565 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 4: him about that. 566 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: John suggested to Caroline's husband that he should pay for 567 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: her to do some art classes to cheer her up. 568 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 4: He says, no, money's not going to fix this. Got 569 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 4: to fix her ding ding, another warning sign. 570 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: John's instincts were absolutely right. Though Caroline was profoundly unhappy 571 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: throughout this time in Western Australia. Her husband's actions towards 572 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: her were as extreme as ever. He was controlling her sleeping, 573 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: She wasn't allowed to touch the food on the plate 574 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: in front of her until he'd given permission. She wasn't 575 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: allowed out of the house alone. This was when she 576 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: got the two hour lecture for saying thank you to 577 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: a taxi driver. One mind blowing detail I learned was 578 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: that Caroline's husband developed a series of signals little winks 579 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: and nods and clicks, and he'd use them to give 580 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: her permission to do certain things when they were in company, 581 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: such as talk or eat or move. And all this time, 582 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: when she got things wrong, rape was a routine punishment. 583 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: Food and money were still scarce. Sometimes she was weak 584 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: with hunger, but she noticed her husband seemed to be 585 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: full of energy. At the time, she put it down 586 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: to his extraordinary spiritual strength, but later realized he had 587 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: simply been eating when he went out. So yeah, while 588 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: John was thinking an art class might cheer her up, 589 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: Caroline was on the brink. 590 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 3: I had gotten to the end of my strength. I 591 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 3: was so convinced that it was because of my rebellious, 592 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 3: disobedient nature that I was always struggling to control these 593 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 3: thoughts I had where I would question or doubt because 594 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 3: I wasn't winning that battle with those thoughts. I decided 595 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 3: that it was my fault that my kids were suffering, 596 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 3: and the only honorable way out of that that seemed 597 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 3: logical to me at the time was to end my life, 598 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 3: because then my husband would be free to marry somebody righteous, 599 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 3: and then the children wouldn't suffer anymore. They'd have food, 600 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 3: and they'd have what they needed, and they wouldn't be 601 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 3: constantly living in this desperate state of survival, so I 602 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,720 Speaker 3: attempted suicide a couple of times. 603 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: It was during this period of hopelessness and desperation that 604 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: Caroline remembers seeing a TV documentary about women during the 605 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:45,919 Speaker 1: Second World War. 606 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 8: A thousand acres of being replanted with various treats, and 607 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 8: the girls can handle a spade with the best hats off. 608 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 6: Then lads to the girls and the British backwards. 609 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 3: It was black and white, and I saw these women 610 00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 3: with shorts on, short shorts and blouses, and they were 611 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 3: driving trucks and tractors and farm machinery. And I thought, 612 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 3: these women have more independence and freedom than I have. 613 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 3: That impacted me so much. It just sort of struck me, 614 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 3: and I thought, what you know, that was so long ago, 615 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 3: and I started to feel angry at my husband. I thought, right, 616 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 3: I'm going to go talk to the branch president, which 617 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 3: was John Campbell. It was very, very unusual for me 618 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 3: to be let out of my husband's site. 619 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: But she made it to the church and sat in 620 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: John's office. 621 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 3: He said, why have you come? And I said, well, 622 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 3: I came to complain about my husband. But now I 623 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 3: think maybe thinking better of it, that maybe I shouldn't be. 624 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: Doing that, but John said, wait no, He and the 625 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: other local leaders suspected she was being abused by her husband. 626 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 3: That just blew me away. I can't explain to you 627 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 3: the impact of that on me. It was enormous and 628 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 3: I just knew what he said was true, and it 629 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 3: was a shock and I'm like, wow, what a relief. 630 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 3: I now don't have to stay in this situation, like 631 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 3: the possibilities just who was amazing, And he said, whatever 632 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 3: you decide to do, we will support you. 633 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: Caroline didn't leave immediately, but when the opportunity arose a 634 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: couple of days later, her husband had left the house 635 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: for longer than usual, she rang John's sister and asked 636 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: her to take her and the children to a woman's refuge. 637 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 3: It gave me the opportunity to pack, and that it 638 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 3: was terrifying because at any moment he could have walked 639 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 3: back in the door. So I was moving very quickly. 640 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: She made it to the refuge just a few streets away, 641 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: and for the first time in three years, she was free, 642 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 1: free to make her own decision big and small. 643 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 3: I remember going to the supermarket on my own and 644 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 3: choosing for myself what I was going to buy to 645 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 3: eat At that point, it was the happiest day of 646 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:21,720 Speaker 3: my life. Yeah, funny to say now, yeah, freedom, freedom 647 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,240 Speaker 3: from prison. 648 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,399 Speaker 1: John reconnected Caroline with her parents and organized a flight 649 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: for her and the children to get home to New Zealand. 650 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: He booked the tickets using a fake name so her 651 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: husband couldn't track her down. John remembers being both impressed 652 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: that the airline had this service in place and saddened 653 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: that they needed it. They'd done it, They'd got Caroline 654 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: and her children out of a terrifying and dangerous situation. 655 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: From what I can tell, John is a pretty humble guy. 656 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: In his words, he's just some big clown. But his 657 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: interventions helped save Caroline. And not that he went round bragging, 658 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: but when people found out, he could expect a big 659 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: pat on the back right well. Once word got around 660 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: about what John had done, he did get a call 661 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: from the Perth Suits his term for the Western Australia 662 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: Senior Church Leaders, but they weren't calling to praise John. 663 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: Quite the opposite. 664 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 4: What I did was just way outside of a church policy, 665 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 4: way outside of anything that would be acceptable to any 666 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 4: of the suits in the church. So I broke that 667 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 4: family up because I got her out of there physically 668 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 4: when I drove them to the woman's refuge and drove 669 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 4: them to the airport. And I encouraged you to get out. 670 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 4: And you're not supposed to do that. It is not 671 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 4: official policy, but you're certainly trained and encouraged it. There 672 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 4: is nothing that you weren't breaking up a family. 673 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: While John is getting it in the neck, Caroline is 674 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: back in New Zealand and has a crucial decision to make. 675 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 3: I had the choice between being on the run because 676 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 3: I was frightened that my first husband would come after me, 677 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 3: or to remain in one spot and create a support 678 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 3: network around me and wait for him. 679 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: Thinking it would be better for the children, She chose 680 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: to stop running and settle in Auckland. She also decided 681 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: to stay in the church. 682 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 3: Because I was helped by a church leader, and because 683 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 3: my first thousand behavior was so extreme and not I 684 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 3: think the norm for most Mormons. I drew the conclusion 685 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 3: that this was just a wicked man twisting the scriptures 686 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 3: to his own ends. It doesn't mean the church isn't true. 687 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: She informed her church leaders in Auckland about what had happened. 688 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: She told them she expected that one day her ex 689 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: husband would find her, so they could be prepared for 690 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: when that day came. She was super cautious about her 691 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: own safety and the safety of her children. And then, 692 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: a year after her escape from Western Australia, just like 693 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: she expected, her ex husband worked out where she was. 694 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: Fortunately for her, he got the address wrong and turned 695 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: up at her parents' house day locked the doors and 696 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: told him to go away. So he tried another way 697 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: to find her. 698 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 3: He got hold of the church leaders for the war 699 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 3: that I was in at the time and organized for 700 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 3: me to meet with him. I told them that I 701 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 3: didn't want to meet with him, and they said that 702 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 3: I needed to. So it was two members of the 703 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 3: bishopric and myself and my first husband in this little 704 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 3: off this. My first husband was just so smug. 705 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: He was just. 706 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 3: Laid back and all relaxed. His whole body language was 707 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 3: I had the power to make this happen, and you 708 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 3: had to obey. And he said that he was sorry 709 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 3: for the mistakes that he had made. He didn't go 710 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 3: into what they were. Those leaders knew what those mistakes 711 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 3: were because I had informed them, but they said that 712 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 3: they appreciated his apology and that I needed to forgive him. 713 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 3: I didn't want to, and I didn't, and they kept insisting, 714 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 3: and I didn't feel that i'd be allowed to leave 715 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 3: that room until I had said that I forgave him, 716 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 3: so id and I said that I forgave him so 717 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 3: that the meeting could be over and so that I 718 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 3: could leave, And I left. I didn't have a car 719 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 3: at the time, so I had to walk a long way, 720 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 3: and I was so frightened that I was going to 721 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 3: be followed, but I wasn't. I think that he'd got 722 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 3: what he wanted, which was basically the message that he 723 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 3: was in control. So at that stage I went to 724 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 3: the police and got a protection order. A couple of 725 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 3: times he showed up and followed me, but I went 726 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,359 Speaker 3: to the community police or to the police station, and 727 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 3: so he disappeared. 728 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: The story Caroline told me as we sat with her 729 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: therapist at that slightly noisy community center moment for moment, 730 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: it's almost exactly the same story she told me in 731 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: our very first phone call, the time when I rang 732 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: up expecting to hear I don't know, some minor anecdote 733 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,280 Speaker 1: about struggling to pay the bills because of church tithes 734 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: or something. But instead I heard this devastating account of 735 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: monstrous domestic violence and coercive control. And look, I've actually 736 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: left doubt some of the more harrowing details. Caroline's husband 737 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:11,240 Speaker 1: was clearly some kind of psychopath, hyper intelligent and manipulative 738 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: with absolutely zero empathy, and that's on him, not the 739 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,280 Speaker 1: Mormon Church. But the thing that really left me reading 740 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: was the church's response those Perth suits, scolding John, the 741 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: guy who Caroline believes literally saved her life, and Auckland 742 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 1: Church officials putting Caroline back in the same room as 743 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: her tormentor at his request, knowing the full context of 744 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: what he'd done to her to retraumatize her so carelessly 745 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 1: that I just couldn't compute. I wanted to understand more 746 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: about how this could have happened, so I started asking 747 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: people some different questions, less about the church's incredible wealth 748 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: or recruitment tactics and more about how the church responds 749 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: to people at their most vulnerable. And once I started 750 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,680 Speaker 1: looking for that kind of story, the cases came flooding in. 751 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 7: I really knew that it wasn't right, it was wrong. 752 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 5: It had two sort of warning bells for me that 753 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 5: something's not quite right. 754 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,839 Speaker 7: Church has admitted sexually abusing boys over civil year. 755 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: Daughter was just two and a half when she was 756 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: sexually abused by a. 757 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 6: Church elder who always done as we've moved you from 758 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 6: one area to another. 759 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: Heaven's Helpline was funded by New Zealand on Air and 760 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 1: the New Zealand Herald for endzed me and iHeartRadio. It 761 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,840 Speaker 1: was researched, written and presented by me Murray Jones. My 762 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: producers were Adam Dudding who co wrote the series, and 763 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,760 Speaker 1: Kirsten Johnston from Pop Sop Media, who edited and sound 764 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,200 Speaker 1: designed it. Phil Brownlee is our sound engineer. Music was 765 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: by Thomas R and Anita Clark. Archival audio came from 766 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: TVNZED and RNZ. Ethan Sills is executive producer here at 767 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,160 Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. If you have a story you'd like 768 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: to share with me about the LDS church, or just 769 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,800 Speaker 1: want to get in touch, email me securely at Murray 770 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 1: Reports at Proton dot M or dm me on X 771 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: at Murray Reports. And for more on this podcast, head 772 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:36,919 Speaker 1: to nzedherld dot co dot nz slash Heaven's Helpline It's 773 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: time intensive doing investigations like this, so if you value 774 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: this kind of journalism, please support it by going to 775 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: your podcast platform and rating and reviewing the series.