1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Now, the Anti Corruption Task Force has released its report 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: following a six month pilot program to get a better 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: idea of corruption in New Zealand. Six agencies across the 4 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: public sector took part, and through the pilot they identified 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: four hundred and forty six let's round it up, so 6 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: it's four hundred and fifty cases of alleged internal fraud 7 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: or corruption. Transparency International New Zealand Executive Director Julie Haggey 8 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: is with us on this high Julie Kyota, this is 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty odd cases that had not been reported, right, 10 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: these are new cases you discovered, Yes they are. 11 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: The Serious Fraud Office did the work. Yes, they found 12 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: I think some of them had been reported internally. Probably 13 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: a few of them had been reported to the Order 14 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: to General, but they hadn't really had a good look 15 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: at what was happening internally in terms of serious misconduct 16 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: and fraud and corruption. They were just counting small widgets 17 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 2: and not really having a good hard look. And this 18 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 2: hasn't ever happened in New Zealand before. So this is 19 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: a this is a significant report, okay. 20 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: And so the six agencies that took part. Is it 21 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: corruption that we're finding within these agencies or is it 22 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: in their interactions with punters out there. 23 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: Well, largely the focus on this was on internal corruption, 24 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: so it was in internal starf issues. So they indicated 25 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: at the end when they had did a review all 26 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 2: the agencies had taken part, did a review of the 27 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: actual pilot and said, well, it'd be good now to 28 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: look outwards to our outward facing. That is where they're 29 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 2: in interactions with a private sector and there's a lot 30 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 2: of private sector providers running government services now, so that's 31 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: another hugely important area to go into. 32 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: Of course, So what kind of like, do do we 33 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: know any of the examples that the SFO found. 34 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: No, it would be nice to know that the report's 35 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: fairly fairly tight on that kind of thing. And I 36 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: would have really liked to have a kind of list, 37 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: a list of what types of misconduct, what types of 38 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: fraud were being and what types of corruption were being 39 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: had been discovered when they did this general check, And 40 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: I think that's something when they start to report on 41 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: the major Hopefully they are now going to roll this 42 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: out across all the agencies and then they are going 43 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: to actually be able to report on the types of 44 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,839 Speaker 2: fraud and coruption that they are seeing. Yeah, I think 45 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: this time, this time, being a pilot, I can understand 46 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: them being a bit careful. Although I think we really 47 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: could have had a little bit more detail on the types. 48 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: Because it sounds like it sounds like it's not just 49 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: all of it was not just outclaiming an extra day 50 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: of per dims. I mean some of it, they say, 51 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: is potentially falling within the SFO's remitten quite serious. So 52 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: I mean this, am I wrong? Then to make the 53 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: leap of logic and go, well, if these guys go 54 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: in and they find four hundred and fifty cases we 55 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: didn't know about, some of which are serious enough for 56 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: them to actually be looking at, we have a bigger 57 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: corruption problem in this country than we think. 58 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's exactly right. And the fact that 59 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: they didn't necessarily some of the agencies and actually recognize 60 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: that it was corruption, they weren't sure whether it was corruption, 61 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: they weren't sure that was reportable. So that's a failure 62 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: of a system failure, isn't it of actually not checking, 63 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: not looking, not understanding where the problem lies across the 64 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: whole system? 65 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: Duly? Or is it actually that we are so we 66 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: are we're so used to some of what we call corruption, 67 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: like what is corruption, that we're actually chill about it. 68 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's still a really high expectation 69 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: amongst amongst most New Zealanders that people are not going 70 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: to try to get a special deal or a point 71 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: of person, you know, nepotism or because these are the 72 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: types of corruption you have. 73 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: But then we say it came out in politics all 74 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: the time, so maybe we go, well, if it's okay 75 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: for old May and that party to hire his son 76 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: in our office, it's okay for blah blah to do 77 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: it too. 78 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: Well. We're really promoting that. We're a big advocacy pointed 79 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: this year is to get a lot more transparency into 80 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: the political space. And I think that where you've got 81 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: leadership from the top skimming our actual integrity systems, I 82 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: think that's that's something which really needs. You know, we 83 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: need a lobbying register, We need more and more transparency, 84 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: live transparency about. 85 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: Whose pain brings to them, Will Julie, why don't you 86 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: if you see this playing out and we've had a 87 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: pretty clear example of this recently where where we've had 88 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: you know, family members being hired on the taxpayer dime. 89 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: Why don't you guys call it out and make a 90 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: point of it, because because the problem is that normal 91 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: punters look at that and feel completely disheartened by it 92 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: and then think, well, you know, if they can do it, 93 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: we can do it too. Yeah. 94 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: Well, we don't tend to talk about individual instances where 95 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: they've not gone through the whole court system. That's just 96 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: one of our things we do. We wait to see 97 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: we've wait to see it move right through the system 98 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: and then and then well then we'll talk about it. 99 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: But we also look at systems rather than individual cases. However, 100 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: having said that, for the last three years, we've done 101 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: a corruption scan that has looked at every single case 102 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 2: we could see in the coming through the news, coming 103 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: through the websites of the investigative agencies right across from 104 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: to registration boards, licensing boards, all of that sort of thing, 105 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: to try to get a sense of what is happening 106 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: because we could see that something was going awry. And 107 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 2: then we looked also at the corruption cases and we're 108 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: reporting on those tonight today. We will report on them 109 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: as part of the Corruption Perceptions Index finding which comes 110 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: out in twenty minutes or so. But that's an important 111 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 2: so we are we have been doing that and I 112 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: think and then we did our research report saying that 113 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: there's not enough happening in terms of being up to monitor. 114 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: So that's what our contribution is as we do have 115 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: a look at systems and we say this part of 116 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: the system is falling down, pick it up. And we 117 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: made that recommendation twenty twenty four and this is why 118 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: this is happening now. So this is the reason why 119 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: that we've got we've had a strong push and saying well, 120 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: well we're the ones that are going to have to 121 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: do the corruption monitoring nationally. No, it should be happening 122 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: at a national level. So that's our contribution. 123 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: Really interesting talkie, thanks for giving us the time. It's 124 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: July Haggie, Transparency International New Zealand executive director. 125 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: For more from Heather duplessy Ellen, listen live to News 126 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 2: Talks it B from four pm weekdays, or follow the 127 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: podcast on iHeartRadio.