1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks be follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,653 --> 00:00:19,453 Speaker 2: We are discussing the government's purchase of five new Seahawk 4 00:00:19,533 --> 00:00:23,613 Speaker 2: helicopters and two Airbus A three twenty one x l 5 00:00:23,813 --> 00:00:26,573 Speaker 2: r's The ACT Party long campaigned for more investment in 6 00:00:26,653 --> 00:00:29,252 Speaker 2: our defense force, and we are now joined by ACT 7 00:00:29,253 --> 00:00:32,533 Speaker 2: Party leader and Deputy Prime Minister David Seymour David Good Afternoon, 8 00:00:33,412 --> 00:00:34,733 Speaker 2: Hey mass, Hey Tyler. 9 00:00:35,293 --> 00:00:39,533 Speaker 3: David, So, what specific threats is New Zealand facing that 10 00:00:39,653 --> 00:00:43,212 Speaker 3: justify spending two point seven billion on new aircraft? 11 00:00:43,253 --> 00:00:47,892 Speaker 4: And shoppers, well, take them one at a time. With 12 00:00:48,092 --> 00:00:53,013 Speaker 4: the aircraft, most countries have some ability to move people 13 00:00:53,132 --> 00:00:58,653 Speaker 4: at short notice, whether the troops, humanitarian aid, diplomats going 14 00:00:58,693 --> 00:01:02,853 Speaker 4: on missions to promote business or whatever. Basically every Western 15 00:01:02,893 --> 00:01:06,572 Speaker 4: country has some sort of planes, often much poorer countries 16 00:01:06,613 --> 00:01:10,093 Speaker 4: than us. Their leaders seem to bought much nicer planes 17 00:01:10,133 --> 00:01:13,613 Speaker 4: than we have. Anyhow, we are getting a pretty good 18 00:01:13,733 --> 00:01:17,372 Speaker 4: deal here. The seven five sevens were bought second hand, 19 00:01:17,413 --> 00:01:20,693 Speaker 4: I think in nineteen ninety three when I personally was 20 00:01:20,733 --> 00:01:24,653 Speaker 4: at primary school. They've kept them flying somehow, and that's 21 00:01:24,693 --> 00:01:27,893 Speaker 4: a big tribute to the engineers at the New Zealand 22 00:01:27,893 --> 00:01:32,053 Speaker 4: Air Force who can keep anything going. And yet those 23 00:01:32,093 --> 00:01:36,613 Speaker 4: planes were relatively modern technology compared with the old Sea 24 00:01:36,693 --> 00:01:40,853 Speaker 4: sprite helicopters. We had five of those, and the oldest 25 00:01:40,893 --> 00:01:46,212 Speaker 4: one hasn't actually seen action since the Korean War. It 26 00:01:46,292 --> 00:01:51,173 Speaker 4: was literally used in Korea and somehow the engineers at 27 00:01:51,173 --> 00:01:55,333 Speaker 4: the Defense Force have kept it flying until now. So 28 00:01:55,573 --> 00:01:59,373 Speaker 4: we're now going to replace those and that's where the 29 00:01:59,413 --> 00:02:02,893 Speaker 4: idea of the threat comes in. The fact is that 30 00:02:02,973 --> 00:02:06,693 Speaker 4: we now have a contested space in the Pacific. You've 31 00:02:06,733 --> 00:02:11,692 Speaker 4: seen recently the Chinese fire and missile which landed near 32 00:02:11,733 --> 00:02:17,093 Speaker 4: French Polynesia. You've seen freedom of navigation. I guess they'd 33 00:02:17,093 --> 00:02:23,133 Speaker 4: call it powerful flotillas of Chinese warships through the Tasman 34 00:02:23,213 --> 00:02:27,893 Speaker 4: Sea recently, and you just don't know what are the 35 00:02:27,972 --> 00:02:31,773 Speaker 4: challenges you might face as people start to compete over 36 00:02:32,093 --> 00:02:37,252 Speaker 4: minerals on the seabed around fishing grounds. The New Zealand's 37 00:02:37,693 --> 00:02:42,452 Speaker 4: Defense Force needs the ability to patrol our exclusive economic 38 00:02:42,573 --> 00:02:45,173 Speaker 4: zone and act as a deterrent to people who would 39 00:02:45,173 --> 00:02:48,612 Speaker 4: come and take things that are legally belonging to New Zealanders. 40 00:02:49,213 --> 00:02:51,973 Speaker 3: It's crazy isn't it that whole Korean War thing that's 41 00:02:52,213 --> 00:02:58,173 Speaker 3: hawkeye and honeycut times that it's pretty insane. Is this 42 00:02:58,333 --> 00:03:01,613 Speaker 3: US procurement route about more than defense though? Is there 43 00:03:01,733 --> 00:03:05,493 Speaker 3: a New Zealand USA economic relations aspect to it? 44 00:03:07,613 --> 00:03:10,933 Speaker 4: There's no. I mean, obviously it's good to be close 45 00:03:11,013 --> 00:03:13,013 Speaker 4: to our friends in the world, But I can honestly 46 00:03:13,093 --> 00:03:17,453 Speaker 4: say I haven't been directly directly involved, but I've been 47 00:03:17,493 --> 00:03:21,333 Speaker 4: a member of cabinet that's considered the different papers. In fact, 48 00:03:21,373 --> 00:03:24,213 Speaker 4: I chair the cabinet committee that we've put through the 49 00:03:24,252 --> 00:03:27,453 Speaker 4: paper a couple of weeks ago on the choppers, and 50 00:03:27,813 --> 00:03:31,813 Speaker 4: there has been a robust case made considering a variety 51 00:03:31,893 --> 00:03:36,693 Speaker 4: of different possible helicopters, and these are honestly the best 52 00:03:36,693 --> 00:03:40,973 Speaker 4: ones probably if we were making any consideration around allies 53 00:03:41,413 --> 00:03:44,613 Speaker 4: in buying the helicopters, it's the fact that the Australians 54 00:03:44,653 --> 00:03:49,453 Speaker 4: have twenty something of the Seahawk helicopters and being interoperable 55 00:03:49,493 --> 00:03:51,933 Speaker 4: with them as important. But if you look at our 56 00:03:52,093 --> 00:03:58,413 Speaker 4: procurement of the airplanes, we've actually gone for two air buses, 57 00:03:59,093 --> 00:04:02,893 Speaker 4: which is a French German company. If we were worried 58 00:04:02,933 --> 00:04:06,253 Speaker 4: about the Americans, I guess we probably would have bought Boeings. 59 00:04:07,333 --> 00:04:09,093 Speaker 3: You know. Further, that thing is say about the Australians 60 00:04:09,133 --> 00:04:11,733 Speaker 3: and the compatibility. How much do you consult with Australia 61 00:04:11,853 --> 00:04:15,893 Speaker 3: on what we get for our defense force? Do they 62 00:04:15,893 --> 00:04:17,773 Speaker 3: go through and say that'll be helpful, that wouldn't could 63 00:04:17,773 --> 00:04:18,653 Speaker 3: you do this? Could you do that? 64 00:04:20,533 --> 00:04:23,333 Speaker 4: I wouldn't frame it that way that they're basically calling 65 00:04:23,373 --> 00:04:25,893 Speaker 4: the shots. But one thing that I'm proud of with 66 00:04:25,933 --> 00:04:29,853 Speaker 4: this government is that since we got into office, we've 67 00:04:29,893 --> 00:04:33,053 Speaker 4: actually really made a concerted effort to get out there. 68 00:04:33,093 --> 00:04:36,653 Speaker 4: So if you look at Chris Luxon, you always traveling. 69 00:04:37,213 --> 00:04:42,733 Speaker 4: Winston Peters is out there traveling an awful lot. Todd 70 00:04:42,813 --> 00:04:45,933 Speaker 4: McLay has been going to India just about every week. 71 00:04:46,013 --> 00:04:47,892 Speaker 4: The poor guy went to India just to have dinner. 72 00:04:47,933 --> 00:04:50,973 Speaker 4: If it helped with the relationship, that shows the free 73 00:04:50,973 --> 00:04:53,573 Speaker 4: trade agreements that he's getting through and making a difference there. 74 00:04:54,093 --> 00:04:56,813 Speaker 4: And then Judith Collins has been over there having bilateral 75 00:04:56,813 --> 00:05:00,053 Speaker 4: meetings with the Australian Minister of Defense. So right across 76 00:05:00,093 --> 00:05:03,653 Speaker 4: the board, but especially with Australia, we are reaching out 77 00:05:03,693 --> 00:05:06,253 Speaker 4: again whereas previously, and I know people don't want us 78 00:05:06,293 --> 00:05:09,333 Speaker 4: to spend our time bagging the last gup. But I mean, 79 00:05:09,453 --> 00:05:12,373 Speaker 4: whatever you may think of Nanaya Mahuta, she was the 80 00:05:12,413 --> 00:05:15,973 Speaker 4: Minister for Local Government and the Minister for Foreign Affairs. 81 00:05:16,173 --> 00:05:20,533 Speaker 4: Now you cannot be in the Hay Europe at one 82 00:05:20,613 --> 00:05:23,973 Speaker 4: day and in Eketahuna talking about pipes the next day. 83 00:05:24,013 --> 00:05:27,533 Speaker 4: It's physically impossible. So you know, we really have as 84 00:05:27,533 --> 00:05:30,253 Speaker 4: a government worked hard to build our connections, and that 85 00:05:30,413 --> 00:05:33,013 Speaker 4: especially includes with Australia. So when we buy stuff, it's 86 00:05:33,013 --> 00:05:34,733 Speaker 4: not that they're telling us what to buy, but it's 87 00:05:34,773 --> 00:05:35,893 Speaker 4: that we're working together. 88 00:05:36,293 --> 00:05:37,853 Speaker 3: Now, when I'm just looking at the text machine, what 89 00:05:37,893 --> 00:05:39,453 Speaker 3: do you say to the people that are texting in 90 00:05:39,533 --> 00:05:42,733 Speaker 3: that say they would prefer this money was spent on 91 00:05:43,333 --> 00:05:45,813 Speaker 3: other parts of our economy. 92 00:05:47,093 --> 00:05:50,173 Speaker 4: Well, it's a bit like insurance, right. It's always tempting 93 00:05:50,253 --> 00:05:53,093 Speaker 4: to say, well, money's tight, let's cut down on the insurance. 94 00:05:53,613 --> 00:05:56,213 Speaker 4: And of course that's a good short term solution, but 95 00:05:56,333 --> 00:05:58,213 Speaker 4: I don't know that it works for you, and I 96 00:05:58,213 --> 00:06:01,293 Speaker 4: think most people intuitively know that's not wise. The thing 97 00:06:01,333 --> 00:06:05,013 Speaker 4: about a defense force is that you kind of buy 98 00:06:05,053 --> 00:06:07,573 Speaker 4: it hoping you'll never actually use it. But if you 99 00:06:07,693 --> 00:06:11,093 Speaker 4: have to use it, then you're very grateful that you 100 00:06:11,333 --> 00:06:13,573 Speaker 4: paid the money, because by the time you need it, 101 00:06:13,573 --> 00:06:17,173 Speaker 4: it's too late to invest in it. And I think 102 00:06:17,213 --> 00:06:20,213 Speaker 4: if you want to make a comparison, we are currently 103 00:06:20,253 --> 00:06:24,533 Speaker 4: spending or at least until recently, zero point nine percent 104 00:06:24,573 --> 00:06:27,093 Speaker 4: of the economy. Our goal is to get up to 105 00:06:27,133 --> 00:06:29,653 Speaker 4: two percent. I'm proud that's happening. That's what the ACT 106 00:06:29,653 --> 00:06:33,653 Speaker 4: Party campaigned for. And it's not like we're into government spending. 107 00:06:33,693 --> 00:06:35,013 Speaker 4: I mean, it's one of the few things we think 108 00:06:35,093 --> 00:06:37,413 Speaker 4: the government should spend more on. If you go across 109 00:06:37,453 --> 00:06:41,413 Speaker 4: to Australia, they're already at two percent. We won't get 110 00:06:41,413 --> 00:06:45,813 Speaker 4: to two percent until twenty thirty two. The Australians by 111 00:06:45,813 --> 00:06:48,173 Speaker 4: that point are on track to be spending two and 112 00:06:48,173 --> 00:06:51,573 Speaker 4: a half percent. So you put it this way, if 113 00:06:51,573 --> 00:06:54,693 Speaker 4: there was a serious problem, we would be asking the 114 00:06:54,733 --> 00:06:58,613 Speaker 4: Australians to come across and help us. Now, are they 115 00:06:58,733 --> 00:07:04,453 Speaker 4: going to divert their military assets away from protecting Brisbane 116 00:07:04,453 --> 00:07:09,213 Speaker 4: and Sydney and Melbourne and Perth in order to protects Auckland, 117 00:07:09,253 --> 00:07:12,853 Speaker 4: Wellington and christ Church If they know that we have 118 00:07:13,013 --> 00:07:15,773 Speaker 4: not made the investment and do not have the capacity 119 00:07:16,133 --> 00:07:18,293 Speaker 4: to help them when they need it. It really is 120 00:07:18,293 --> 00:07:20,453 Speaker 4: as simple as that. If you believe in the ANZAC thing, 121 00:07:20,493 --> 00:07:21,853 Speaker 4: you've got to put your money where your moufice. 122 00:07:21,933 --> 00:07:25,053 Speaker 2: Yeah, nicely said. There's been a few teachs David about 123 00:07:25,093 --> 00:07:27,813 Speaker 2: the incident in February with the Chinese warships and the 124 00:07:27,813 --> 00:07:31,453 Speaker 2: Tasman Sea, and I believe Minister Collins words at the 125 00:07:31,453 --> 00:07:34,013 Speaker 2: time was that was quite chilling. Does that come into 126 00:07:34,013 --> 00:07:36,253 Speaker 2: play here when we look at the investment that was announced, 127 00:07:36,253 --> 00:07:39,093 Speaker 2: the twelve billion in this investment in the new military equipment, 128 00:07:39,133 --> 00:07:42,413 Speaker 2: which are impressive pieces of cats. Does those sort of 129 00:07:42,453 --> 00:07:43,773 Speaker 2: incidents come into play. 130 00:07:45,133 --> 00:07:49,373 Speaker 4: Well? I mean, I think those incidents are basically the 131 00:07:49,453 --> 00:07:53,013 Speaker 4: highlighting of a trend that's been going for a very 132 00:07:53,053 --> 00:07:55,293 Speaker 4: long time. I remember, I think I was on this 133 00:07:55,413 --> 00:07:59,733 Speaker 4: radio station back in twenty nineteen and I was saying, look, 134 00:07:59,773 --> 00:08:03,173 Speaker 4: I think probably the most significant thing that's happened in 135 00:08:03,173 --> 00:08:07,933 Speaker 4: New Zealand this year is the installation or the presence 136 00:08:07,973 --> 00:08:10,773 Speaker 4: of Chinese ships and curve of US and I actually 137 00:08:10,813 --> 00:08:13,733 Speaker 4: have to look on the map to realize how closer 138 00:08:14,173 --> 00:08:17,733 Speaker 4: it is. This has been coming for a long time 139 00:08:18,213 --> 00:08:21,613 Speaker 4: and we have got to start adjusting to the reality. 140 00:08:21,893 --> 00:08:26,453 Speaker 4: I believe New Zealand started quite a few years behind. 141 00:08:26,213 --> 00:08:28,813 Speaker 4: We did try and win the election earlier to start 142 00:08:28,853 --> 00:08:31,893 Speaker 4: addressing this, but the people didn't want us. Then now 143 00:08:31,933 --> 00:08:34,733 Speaker 4: that they did, we are taking steps to prepare for 144 00:08:34,773 --> 00:08:37,653 Speaker 4: a reality that's been coming for a while. And there's 145 00:08:37,693 --> 00:08:39,613 Speaker 4: incidents with the ships and so on that they're just 146 00:08:39,653 --> 00:08:42,013 Speaker 4: punctuating what we should already know. 147 00:08:42,492 --> 00:08:44,492 Speaker 3: So for all the people that are texting and saying 148 00:08:44,573 --> 00:08:47,213 Speaker 3: that they prefer we spend the money elsewhere, there's about 149 00:08:47,213 --> 00:08:50,492 Speaker 3: five to one texting that we should spend more. And 150 00:08:50,533 --> 00:08:53,733 Speaker 3: maybe that say something about the audience for me entitle 151 00:08:53,773 --> 00:08:55,772 Speaker 3: afternoons on Newstalk CB. I'm not sure, but if we 152 00:08:55,813 --> 00:08:58,652 Speaker 3: wanted to get super serious, don't we have to spend 153 00:08:58,653 --> 00:09:03,933 Speaker 3: billions and billions of more And look, if we could 154 00:09:03,973 --> 00:09:06,933 Speaker 3: afford it, what would our dream defense force look like? 155 00:09:07,053 --> 00:09:10,333 Speaker 3: Are we're talking going as far as fighter jets, I know, 156 00:09:10,413 --> 00:09:12,813 Speaker 3: stealth well as robo soldiers. What do we want? 157 00:09:13,533 --> 00:09:13,773 Speaker 2: Look? 158 00:09:14,213 --> 00:09:17,013 Speaker 4: I just take the view that there's always going to 159 00:09:17,012 --> 00:09:21,013 Speaker 4: be censioned around our alliances with the rest of the world. 160 00:09:21,053 --> 00:09:23,253 Speaker 4: But I think if we can't at least do the 161 00:09:23,293 --> 00:09:25,973 Speaker 4: ANZAC thing and be in lockstep with Australia, then we're 162 00:09:25,973 --> 00:09:28,253 Speaker 4: in real trouble, and I would say, look, the New 163 00:09:28,333 --> 00:09:32,652 Speaker 4: Zealand economy is about one sixth of the Australian economy, 164 00:09:32,973 --> 00:09:34,852 Speaker 4: so I would say, look, if they are getting six 165 00:09:35,852 --> 00:09:38,853 Speaker 4: squadrons of F thirty five, maybe we should do a 166 00:09:38,852 --> 00:09:41,412 Speaker 4: deal to have one too. If they are currently buying 167 00:09:41,492 --> 00:09:46,613 Speaker 4: Japanese warships, which they have just agreed to buy a 168 00:09:46,653 --> 00:09:50,492 Speaker 4: dozen Japanese frigates, maybe we should add a couple onto 169 00:09:50,533 --> 00:09:54,533 Speaker 4: that order and basically play our part in an ANZAC alliance. 170 00:09:54,533 --> 00:09:57,612 Speaker 4: Now I'm not saying that's the government policy to do that, 171 00:09:58,372 --> 00:10:01,453 Speaker 4: but it's a principle that I think is probably a 172 00:10:01,492 --> 00:10:03,852 Speaker 4: good way of thinking about it. And then once you've 173 00:10:03,973 --> 00:10:07,132 Speaker 4: established that principle, start cutting your cloth and thinking what 174 00:10:07,173 --> 00:10:09,333 Speaker 4: you can and can't do. The other thing i'd say is, 175 00:10:09,732 --> 00:10:12,292 Speaker 4: I think what is being taught to the world in 176 00:10:12,333 --> 00:10:20,413 Speaker 4: real time by Ukraine is that often smaller autonomous vehicles, 177 00:10:20,492 --> 00:10:23,252 Speaker 4: drones and the like it can be a lot more 178 00:10:23,293 --> 00:10:27,973 Speaker 4: effective than having an entire army your very expensive hardware, 179 00:10:28,012 --> 00:10:31,773 Speaker 4: as the Russians found out, at enormous costs. So you know, 180 00:10:31,813 --> 00:10:34,973 Speaker 4: we should be first of all ANZAC focused, in my view, 181 00:10:35,413 --> 00:10:38,372 Speaker 4: second of all, just keeping a little bit of space 182 00:10:38,413 --> 00:10:41,213 Speaker 4: for the possibility that technology can change the rules of 183 00:10:41,252 --> 00:10:43,612 Speaker 4: the game very quickly, and we should try and tap 184 00:10:43,653 --> 00:10:47,132 Speaker 4: into our key with spirit of being nimble Number eight 185 00:10:47,173 --> 00:10:48,053 Speaker 4: wiring innovative. 186 00:10:48,293 --> 00:10:49,853 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean that's the thing, isn't it. I mean, 187 00:10:49,973 --> 00:10:51,652 Speaker 3: are you worried that in a few years that a 188 00:10:51,693 --> 00:10:54,253 Speaker 3: four hundred dollars drone will take down our one hundred 189 00:10:54,252 --> 00:10:55,373 Speaker 3: million dollar choppers? 190 00:10:56,533 --> 00:11:01,492 Speaker 4: Well, you kind of think that the choppers will have 191 00:11:01,533 --> 00:11:04,613 Speaker 4: defense systems that will keep ahead of the four hundred 192 00:11:04,573 --> 00:11:05,253 Speaker 4: dollars drones. 193 00:11:05,293 --> 00:11:05,893 Speaker 2: What about. 194 00:11:09,573 --> 00:11:12,573 Speaker 4: Well, at some point there could be a ratio there, 195 00:11:12,612 --> 00:11:14,093 Speaker 4: but I think it's a bit higher than the one 196 00:11:14,132 --> 00:11:14,773 Speaker 4: you're proposed. 197 00:11:15,012 --> 00:11:17,813 Speaker 2: Yeah, and David just quickly. Me's too humble to ask, 198 00:11:17,892 --> 00:11:19,573 Speaker 2: but he'd really like to go up in one of 199 00:11:19,612 --> 00:11:21,933 Speaker 2: the sea Hawks when they come into the country. Can 200 00:11:21,933 --> 00:11:22,573 Speaker 2: you make that happen? 201 00:11:22,653 --> 00:11:24,253 Speaker 3: The Seahawks will be bringing them back. 202 00:11:25,892 --> 00:11:30,373 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, you can, but they won't arrive until after 203 00:11:30,413 --> 00:11:33,732 Speaker 4: the election. So if he votes for me and encourages 204 00:11:33,732 --> 00:11:36,053 Speaker 4: all his listeners to then I'll be in a position 205 00:11:36,093 --> 00:11:36,453 Speaker 4: to help. 206 00:11:36,653 --> 00:11:37,652 Speaker 3: Oh all right, I'm in. 207 00:11:37,693 --> 00:11:40,933 Speaker 2: High steake Sdad. Really nice to have you on. Yeah, 208 00:11:41,012 --> 00:11:43,373 Speaker 2: really appreciate your red time. Thank you very much and 209 00:11:43,413 --> 00:11:46,132 Speaker 2: we'll hear everything soon. That is Deputy Prime Minister and 210 00:11:46,173 --> 00:11:47,612 Speaker 2: Eight Party leader David Seymour. 211 00:11:48,173 --> 00:11:50,813 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks d B, listen live on 212 00:11:50,892 --> 00:11:53,852 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 213 00:11:53,933 --> 00:11:56,493 Speaker 1: you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio