WEBVTT - Putin already seen as winner in US-Russia summit on peace in Ukraine 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:05.840 Kielder. 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:09.240 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:16.759 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The countdown 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.720 to the Putin Trump summit is on. The two leaders 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.200 are due to meet in Alaska to discuss what peace 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.960 could look like in Ukraine more than three and a 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.519 half years after Russia's invasion. While Trump has spoken to 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:37.360 Ukraine's Voladimir Zelenski ahead of the meeting, European capitals remain 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.040 apprehensive that a resolution will come from it and a 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:46.560 rallying behind Kiev. So is this latest development in fact 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.600 a development at all or just posturing by two men 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.360 desperate to be seen to be doing something Today. On 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:58.240 the Front Page, KIWI journalist Thomas Martch joins us from 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:00.960 Ukraine to take us through who is the latest on 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:07.759 the front lines and behind the scenes. So, Tom, we 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:11.440 know that Trump and Putin are set to meet in 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:15.720 Alaska on Friday local time. But first off, what's the 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:17.800 significance of Alaska? 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.520 It does seem a bit of an odd choice at first. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:26.200 The reasons are primarily geographic. It's quite hard for Putin 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.200 to go anywhere at the moment because he's wanted by 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.160 the International Criminal Court, So any countries that have signed 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.600 up the International Criminal Court have an obligation to basically 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.440 arrest him and hand him over. Now the US has 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.160 actually is not and has never been his signatory to 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.000 that court, so it is technically safe for him to 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:50.920 meet in Alaska. It's also something that when you choose 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:52.880 these kind of locations, you often want to choose something 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.280 that's kind of like equidistant for both leaders. For Putin 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.600 it's just a straight flight from Moscow. For Trump it's 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:00.920 a straight flight from DC. They kind of meet about 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:03.640 in the middle. But it's also got some interesting historical 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.560 significance as well because it was sold by one of 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.560 the Russian czars I think was Alexander back in around 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.360 eight I think it's eighteen sixty seven from Russia to 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.640 the United States. So when we're talking about powerful people 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:22.839 carving up spheres of influence and you know, handing over 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.960 territories with a swath of a pen and stuff like that, 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.400 there is some interesting historical legacy to it. 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.160 Now, it has Vladimir Putin given any details on what 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.440 the Kremlin is asking for. 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:39.000 So what they say it. So they first announced their 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:45.960 conditions basically last year, and they were Ukraine has to 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:51.280 withdraw from all of the four major oblasts where the 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:57.200 Kremlin controls that significant amount of the territory, that's Hassan, Zaprasia, Donetsky, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:01.440 Nahask and Ukraine has to agree to never join NATO, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.080 has to completely basically get rid of its armed forces. 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.800 And there are other things as well, about like Russian language, 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.720 you know, trying the right of the Russian language in 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.320 government institutions, not particularly important stuff for them. The really 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.800 important stuff is over territory. And it does seem that, 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.320 at least according to reports, there was one of the 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:26.799 Wall Street Journal that said that these demands have slightly lessened, 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.400 which is that they're now dropping the idea for Ukraine 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.480 to withdraw from the remainder of her Son and Zaparisia. 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.800 And you know, those are very very major cities that 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.520 the Kremlin has been pushed back from, so it would 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.600 be very very strange for them to be handed over. 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:45.600 And that what they're asking for now is the rest 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.280 of Dnetsk Oblast, which if you look at it on 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:53.720 a map doesn't look huge and you might wonder why 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.280 that territory is so important or so we're fighting for 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.400 the problem is that Danetsko Blast is the most heavily 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.560 urbanized and heavily fortified part of the country. So if 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:04.920 Ukraine would have hand that over, they would be handing 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.800 over what they call like a fortress belt. It's these cities, 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:10.960 about four of them in a row, that are just 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.800 like trenched and mined and barbed wired and just like 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.520 these kind of ultimate defensible outposts. And so the problem 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.360 with those demands is that were the Ukrainians to give 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.159 that over, not only would they be losing a large 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.400 chunk of their territory and the civilians that go with it. 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.640 If the Kremlin ever decided to come back in five 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:32.440 or teen years down the line, like it did in 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.560 twenty twenty two after the twenty fourteen war, Ukraine would 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:37.880 be fighting from a much weaker position because it would 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.520 have given up its most defensible territory. If you look 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.720 at it on a map, after denis Goblast to Ukraine's 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:45.919 major cities, it's pretty much just straight shooting. 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:50.680 I think I believe he wants to get it over with. Now, 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:54.040 I've said that a few times. Then I've been disappointed 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:56.560 because they have like a great call with him, and 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.719 then missiles would be lobbed in Tikiev. For some other place, 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:04.039 you'd have sixty people laying on a road dying. They said, 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:09.279 that's cold, that's cold. But it's a violent war. Five 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.520 to seven thousand people a week, a day, and you 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.520 know there's nobody from here. They're all Russian and Ukrainian 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.240 people and some people from the city's much more on number. 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.000 But still those missiles do damage and they kill a 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:23.599 lot of people. 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.279 So Trump is giving the impression that there will be 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:34.159 some swapping of territories to the betterment of both. It's 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:38.560 hard to believe that this kind of betterment would be achievable, though, right. 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:43.040 It's a very odd turn of phrase. And the reason 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:47.520 for that is that one the Kremlin has shown absolutely 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:52.680 no willingness to withdraw from anything except for tiny parts 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.599 of land potentially Ensumi or harkyvobe Blast. It doesn't really 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.560 that were basically attempted incursions that never really win. Timmywhare 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.200 and they own like tenklov as a farm land here 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.760 and there, or like half a ruined village or something 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:12.440 like that. Now, the worry is that one Steve Whitcoff, 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.240 Trump's envoy, went to Moscow and basically apparently there was 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:20.200 a mistranslation and he came back saying that Vladimir Putin 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.200 was actually willing to offer up much more than he 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:26.000 actually was. And so it seems like if there are 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.560 land swaps, they would almost always they would be more 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.640 likely to be in the Kremlin's favor. You know, Ukraine 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.520 giving up that large part of Denise Goblast that I 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.680 was talking about. So that could be like a real 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.840 stickler in the negotiations because people in Ukraine are saying, well, 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:46.000 like Donald Trump, who are you to say what territories 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.159 we're going to hand over or swap or not. 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:52.200 Yeah, that leads me on too. I wonder what Zelenski's 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.400 thinking about all this. Has he mentioned what he thinks 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.480 of the Trump Putin meeting. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.160 So there was a lot of of discussion over will 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.640 Zelenski come, will he be an anchorage that day? Will 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:07.480 he have anything to do with it? And it's looking 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:09.640 more and more likely that no, he won't have anything 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:13.320 to do with this particular meeting. And he has basically 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.520 said the reason we can't withdraw from Donetsk is that 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:19.160 Danette is going to be a springboard for a future 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.560 Russian attack. I should say this is not just hypothetical, right, 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.280 you know, this literally happened. The Russians took Crimea in 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:30.480 twenty fourteen, and Crimea became a springboard in twenty twenty 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.640 two for the most successful Russian attack of the entire war, 0:07:34.960 --> 0:07:38.200 which took really large parts of southern Ukraine. 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.840 Yeah, he's also said that it's a personal victory for Putin, 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:43.840 and I saw that it came out that the meeting 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:48.840 is Putin's idea. It all looks like good press for 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.960 Vladimir Putin at this stage. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.360 So yeah, so this is the thing. Right, we're back 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.560 in twenty twenty two. It's completely you're completely right there. 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.760 Back in twenty twenty two, the kreminin effectively became kind 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.120 of stracized by the world, right, you know, ban from 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:08.040 sporting events, cultural events, banking systems, cut off, huge sanctions 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:14.320 imposed on the works, and effectively what being in America 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.080 and shaking hands of the US president and like as 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.679 like a partnership of equals looks like is it looks 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.560 like it's now you're welcoming them back into the fold. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.200 You're like, okay, you're a respected partner with whom we 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.160 can do business again. And that is in and of 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:34.920 itself a major concessions concession and the negotiations already. It 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.120 also looks bad because, as I said, Donald Trump and 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.319 his advisors don't seem to have a particularly good grasp 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.280 of the battlefield dynamics or the even the geography or 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.240 the culture of the various regions they're talking about. So 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.319 it really does look like we're back in nineteen forty five, 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.240 and it's Churchill and Stull and kind of drawing lines 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.199 over countries and giving, you know, noting down the percentages 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.040 of dividing up the world into spheres of influence. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:06.600 Again, what is the reality of a meeting between Putin 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:08.080 and Zelenski at this point? 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:15.880 So it's it's difficult because the two leaders absolutely despise 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.680 each other. And one of the other problems is that 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.360 neither side is in a catastrophic enough military possession where 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.600 they're willing to sort of give it up, right, Like, 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.120 the Ukrainian defense is pretty strong, the Russians have taken 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:34.720 enormous casualties, but the Russian economy and the Russian military 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.800 industrial complex seems to have enough kind of slack in 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.680 it to support this kind of year, this level of war. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.320 Effort this level of operations for like another year or two, 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:46.640 and you know, there's there's been a lot in Ukraine 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.800 now about a Russian penetration of Ukrainian lines around Pakrovs 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:53.800 and we don't quite yet know how serious that is, 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:55.720 whether it's just, you know, a bunch of Russian guys 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.199 got much further in the lines than they expected, or 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.160 whether the Russians have actually made a significant breakthrough. What 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.560 it does do is it does give Vladimir Putin the 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.040 idea that he's got battlefield momentum, however slow it is, 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.400 and that he can achieve his goals by military means. 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.760 What Ukrainians, I guess I'm hoping for from this summit 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:21.120 is that Donald Trump can convince him that it's going 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.760 to be more painful to achieve his goals through military 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:28.160 means than just banking whatever small wins he has now 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.360 and kind of calling it quits. But I'm not incredibly optimistic. 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.640 Is there any evidence suggesting that Putin is willing to 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:47.719 compromise or retreat even or does the Kremlin remain kind 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:49.840 of steadfast in its position at the moment. 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.680 So there is the little bit of leeway that the 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:58.200 Kremlin has given has been saying that there are the 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:03.880 two provinces that it's not going to require withdrawal from those. Now, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.920 those provinces were like Hrsan and Zupparisia, like especially those cities, 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:12.720 they were virulently anti Russian. They never had you know 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.640 that the Kremlin had never said anything about them before 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.439 the start of the war. They were generally considered the 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:23.640 Kremlin's most outlandish demands and they they have been retracted. 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.439 So it does seem like there is a tiny bit 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.040 of wiggle room. But at the same time it does 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.959 you know, Vladimir Putin and you know, top Russians will 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.760 constantly come out and say things about how like Ukraine 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:39.240 doesn't really exist and Russia should get to a Dessa 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:43.760 and you know, Russia's borders have no end and stuff 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.880 like that. So what I think people are still on 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:51.760 the tossing up is are these signs that he's genuinely 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.959 willing for a compromise or is he willing to come 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.400 to some sort of ceasefire conditions That would just mean 0:11:57.880 --> 0:11:59.880 that he will think that he can then have another 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.120 light at the apple in five or ten years time. 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.720 That's what everyone in Ukraine is really worried about not 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.800 so much specifically where the final battle lines might be 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.240 drawn in this round of fighting, but how do you 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.360 stop this kind of invasion happening again? 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.920 How do you stop something like this invasion happening again. 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:23.880 So, look, a lot of Ukrainians have sort of lost 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.360 faith in sort of Western institutions. So for instance, you know, 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.520 at the start of the full scale war, the big 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.960 thing was NATO membership. You know, Ukraine needs NATO membership, 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.559 then the cast iron guaranty of Article five. I now 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.440 talk to Ukrainians, and I've speaking of spoken to people 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.720 in the Baltic States as well, who say, look, we're 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.800 no longer convinced that NATO is all it's cracked up 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.360 to me. We're no longer convinced that the US would 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:53.240 necessarily honor an Article five arrangement and you know, come 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.000 full throated to our defense if we were invaded or 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.080 we had a Russian incursion or something like that. So 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.920 so you know that, I mean, the idea of European 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:07.400 peacekeepers had its flaws and its difficulties, but it was 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.240 at least one way for European countries to have genuine 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.600 skin in the game in protecting Ukraine. The only other way, 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.640 as the Ukrainians have found, is unfortunately, the model where 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.839 you just have an extremely strong standing army like they 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.280 have in South Korea, like they have in Israel for 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.200 all its issues, like they have in a number of 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.960 countries where they expect that war could break out, that 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.640 you just have to have an extra you know, everyone 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:37.000 has military service. The country's just full of weapons, and 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.520 there's minefields all over the borders, and it's not a 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.160 particularly pleasant way to live, but it might be the 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.680 only way to survive in this kind of new world order. 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.480 Zelenski himself has insisted that all conversations about Ukraine must 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.560 be with Ukraine present. Europe has backed him up on that. 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.040 A quick reminder, though, a moment like today, a virtual 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:04.199 conference with Trump and European leaders and President Zelenski setting 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.400 out positions, does echo what we saw back in May 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.360 when a ceasefire was demanded by Europe and Ukraine and 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.280 Trump was on the phone to his European allies saying 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.199 he'd impose sanctions with them if Putin didn't go along 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:17.240 with that suggestion. 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.320 And Tom, you're in Ukraine now, whereabouts in the country 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:23.800 are you? 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.280 I've been living in Kiev for the last three years now. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.920 So look in Kiev, like everyone is pretty used to 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.520 like things that Things that can appear sort of very 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.760 shocking on the mirror or on TV are often not 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.840 necessarily that shocking to the eyes of Ukrainians who've lived 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.800 through countless air raids, who've seen the battlefield situation go 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.560 up and down for years and years and years. Now 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:55.880 there's everyone is no one is sort of inclined to surrender, 0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:00.000 but everyone is more exhausted and more annoyed and more 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:04.200 more sort of despondent than they were before, even if 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.400 there is still no real appetite to sort of surrender 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.200 large parts of the country to Russia. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.760 And in your book Dogs or the Dogs of Mariopol, 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:21.720 there are some pretty incredible stories of just everyday Ukrainians 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:26.520 stopping their studies, putting away their things and just checking 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:29.560 on some some army gear. I mean is that it 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.920 just speaks to the I guess the resilience of Ukrainians 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:34.560 at this point. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.680 Is that what you found, Yes, so that the whole 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.720 the whole point in that was about. You know, it's 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.840 the forging of Ukraine's iron generation, and this is one 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:44.800 of the things that I said. That's that like so 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.760 many of the people that I met in Ukraine, you know, 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.360 were had you know, they had really good careers, really 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.840 good educations. You know, they were you know, intensely well 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.160 educated and patriotic, and they were the ones who sort 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.280 of down tools, put on body armor and went to 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:05.360 the front lines. That is an extremely inspiring story, but 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.440 it's also a very tragic story because in large parts 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:12.840 a lot of Ukraine's most promising and successful, especially young people, 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.320 were the ones who ended up being killed. So there 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.840 is that kind of sort of dual element of this 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.440 kind of great heroism that this kind of like really 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.640 horrible sacrifice at the same time, and when the war 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.160 does eventually inevitably come to an end, it's going to 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.480 be a really difficult thing in society, you know, how 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:32.360 you deal with the memory and the legacy of. 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:38.280 What's happened, and once the war ends, hopefully what that 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.400 will do to future generations, in the future of the 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:42.320 country as a whole. 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.640 Yeah, that's well, I think one of the things that 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:50.320 it's already quite evident tension society now, but it's the 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.840 tension between the truths have been on the front line 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.560 for you know, three years, you know, after ten years 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.120 if they fought in the First War sometimes and the 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.760 men who maybe stayed in the home cities and like 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.000 you know, hit for mobilization squads and like didn't join 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.920 up in the war. There's the tensions between, you know, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.320 because we're women were the only people who women and 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.320 children were the only ones who could leave. The women 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.760 who stayed in their home cities, and the women who 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.760 left and went to Europe or the UK or Canada 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.960 or wherever. That tension between you know, did you really 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.800 go through the war? I remember once driving past a 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:35.280 recruitment sign in Harkiv Oblast. It said, you know, daddy, 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.040 what did you do during the war, And it's like 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.119 a man like twenty years in the future, like holding 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.080 his infant son. I thought that was like a really 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:47.280 kind of interesting and probably quite effective psychological marketing campaign. 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.800 But it really does speak to because there's going to 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:51.680 be so many soldiers who come back from the front 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.240 line at the end and they look around at people 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.919 who whether they left and then came back or just 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:58.960 stayed in their cities the whole time. They're going to 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:03.239 be like, we fought and watched our friends died and 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.960 sometimes got maimed and utilated, and we're all psychologically traumatized 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.639 from sort of four or five However many years it 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:14.400 is a full scale war. What do you guys, you know, 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:17.600 where was your sacrifice and all this? 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.520 What could New Zealand do better? 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:23.520 I mean, I've got to be honest. One of the 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.240 things that I have consistently been annoyed about from the 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.560 start is that New Zealand has almost I think the 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.760 Defense Minister has been once but no New Zealand. Why 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.040 are they know, never any New Zealand officials that are 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.920 visiting Ukraine. All Australian prime ministers have done it all 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.399 the UK you know prime ministers have done it. Joe 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.840 Biden did it when he was US president, you know, 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.680 Earthula Vondle and you know did it as president of 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:55.040 the European Commissioned several times. And especially is I remember 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.080 I talked to a University of Target expert about this, 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.119 whose name unfortunately skates me, but it's he was like 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.760 New Zealand's you know, strength is in its soft power 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.560 and its diplomacy. We're never going to to be a 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:12.240 military superpower, but our we sort of project our values 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:13.919 in our soft power, And I'm like, why is New 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.119 Zealand in no way trying to get trying to have 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.520 some kind of voice in the negotiations for instance, It 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.720 just seems that their issue was almost sort of entirely 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.399 disappeared from New Zealand political discourse to the extent that 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.280 it ever was there. So I think even just some 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:35.760 kind of rhetoric from politicians. You know, why when Christopher 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.480 Luxon is on a European tour, why does he not 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.880 just come to Ukraine? I know the Ukrainians, for instance, 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:42.600 have been trying to get a New Zealand Prime minister 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.320 for ages and they've had no luck. Just Sender and 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.480 Chris Hipkins, which we were they were told note which 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.800 is not interested and you know why not? I just 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.399 don't understand it, Like every other world later has done it. 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:59.080 Why why are the key we sort of not picking 0:19:59.119 --> 0:19:59.840 up a slack here? 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:02.280 Thanks for joining us, Tom. 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:03.240 No worries please. 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:09.760 As always, that's it for this episode of the Front Page. 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:13.280 You can read more about today's stories and extensive news 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:17.720 coverage at enzidhrald dot co dot MZ. The Front Page 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.639 is produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:25.320 also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.840 page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.280 tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.