1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Kielder. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The countdown 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: to the Putin Trump summit is on. The two leaders 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 2: are due to meet in Alaska to discuss what peace 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: could look like in Ukraine more than three and a 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 2: half years after Russia's invasion. While Trump has spoken to 8 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: Ukraine's Voladimir Zelenski ahead of the meeting, European capitals remain 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 2: apprehensive that a resolution will come from it and a 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 2: rallying behind Kiev. So is this latest development in fact 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 2: a development at all or just posturing by two men 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: desperate to be seen to be doing something Today. On 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: the Front Page, KIWI journalist Thomas Martch joins us from 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: Ukraine to take us through who is the latest on 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 2: the front lines and behind the scenes. So, Tom, we 16 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 2: know that Trump and Putin are set to meet in 17 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: Alaska on Friday local time. But first off, what's the 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: significance of Alaska? 19 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: It does seem a bit of an odd choice at first. 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: The reasons are primarily geographic. It's quite hard for Putin 21 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: to go anywhere at the moment because he's wanted by 22 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: the International Criminal Court, So any countries that have signed 23 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: up the International Criminal Court have an obligation to basically 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: arrest him and hand him over. Now the US has 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: actually is not and has never been his signatory to 26 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: that court, so it is technically safe for him to 27 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: meet in Alaska. It's also something that when you choose 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: these kind of locations, you often want to choose something 29 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: that's kind of like equidistant for both leaders. For Putin 30 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: it's just a straight flight from Moscow. For Trump it's 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: a straight flight from DC. They kind of meet about 32 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: in the middle. But it's also got some interesting historical 33 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: significance as well because it was sold by one of 34 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: the Russian czars I think was Alexander back in around 35 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: eight I think it's eighteen sixty seven from Russia to 36 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: the United States. So when we're talking about powerful people 37 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 1: carving up spheres of influence and you know, handing over 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: territories with a swath of a pen and stuff like that, 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: there is some interesting historical legacy to it. 40 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: Now, it has Vladimir Putin given any details on what 41 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: the Kremlin is asking for. 42 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: So what they say it. So they first announced their 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: conditions basically last year, and they were Ukraine has to 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: withdraw from all of the four major oblasts where the 45 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: Kremlin controls that significant amount of the territory, that's Hassan, Zaprasia, Donetsky, 46 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: Nahask and Ukraine has to agree to never join NATO, 47 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: has to completely basically get rid of its armed forces. 48 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: And there are other things as well, about like Russian language, 49 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, trying the right of the Russian language in 50 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: government institutions, not particularly important stuff for them. The really 51 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: important stuff is over territory. And it does seem that, 52 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: at least according to reports, there was one of the 53 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal that said that these demands have slightly lessened, 54 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: which is that they're now dropping the idea for Ukraine 55 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: to withdraw from the remainder of her Son and Zaparisia. 56 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: And you know, those are very very major cities that 57 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: the Kremlin has been pushed back from, so it would 58 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: be very very strange for them to be handed over. 59 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: And that what they're asking for now is the rest 60 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: of Dnetsk Oblast, which if you look at it on 61 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: a map doesn't look huge and you might wonder why 62 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: that territory is so important or so we're fighting for 63 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: the problem is that Danetsko Blast is the most heavily 64 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: urbanized and heavily fortified part of the country. So if 65 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: Ukraine would have hand that over, they would be handing 66 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: over what they call like a fortress belt. It's these cities, 67 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: about four of them in a row, that are just 68 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: like trenched and mined and barbed wired and just like 69 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: these kind of ultimate defensible outposts. And so the problem 70 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: with those demands is that were the Ukrainians to give 71 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: that over, not only would they be losing a large 72 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: chunk of their territory and the civilians that go with it. 73 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: If the Kremlin ever decided to come back in five 74 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: or teen years down the line, like it did in 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two after the twenty fourteen war, Ukraine would 76 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: be fighting from a much weaker position because it would 77 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: have given up its most defensible territory. If you look 78 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: at it on a map, after denis Goblast to Ukraine's 79 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: major cities, it's pretty much just straight shooting. 80 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 3: I think I believe he wants to get it over with. Now, 81 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 3: I've said that a few times. Then I've been disappointed 82 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 3: because they have like a great call with him, and 83 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 3: then missiles would be lobbed in Tikiev. For some other place, 84 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 3: you'd have sixty people laying on a road dying. They said, 85 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 3: that's cold, that's cold. But it's a violent war. Five 86 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 3: to seven thousand people a week, a day, and you 87 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 3: know there's nobody from here. They're all Russian and Ukrainian 88 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 3: people and some people from the city's much more on number. 89 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 3: But still those missiles do damage and they kill a 90 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 3: lot of people. 91 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 2: So Trump is giving the impression that there will be 92 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 2: some swapping of territories to the betterment of both. It's 93 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: hard to believe that this kind of betterment would be achievable, though, right. 94 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: It's a very odd turn of phrase. And the reason 95 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: for that is that one the Kremlin has shown absolutely 96 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: no willingness to withdraw from anything except for tiny parts 97 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: of land potentially Ensumi or harkyvobe Blast. It doesn't really 98 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: that were basically attempted incursions that never really win. Timmywhare 99 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: and they own like tenklov as a farm land here 100 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: and there, or like half a ruined village or something 101 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: like that. Now, the worry is that one Steve Whitcoff, 102 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: Trump's envoy, went to Moscow and basically apparently there was 103 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: a mistranslation and he came back saying that Vladimir Putin 104 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: was actually willing to offer up much more than he 105 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: actually was. And so it seems like if there are 106 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: land swaps, they would almost always they would be more 107 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: likely to be in the Kremlin's favor. You know, Ukraine 108 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: giving up that large part of Denise Goblast that I 109 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: was talking about. So that could be like a real 110 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: stickler in the negotiations because people in Ukraine are saying, well, 111 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: like Donald Trump, who are you to say what territories 112 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: we're going to hand over or swap or not. 113 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that leads me on too. I wonder what Zelenski's 114 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 2: thinking about all this. Has he mentioned what he thinks 115 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 2: of the Trump Putin meeting. 116 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of of discussion over will 117 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: Zelenski come, will he be an anchorage that day? Will 118 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: he have anything to do with it? And it's looking 119 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: more and more likely that no, he won't have anything 120 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: to do with this particular meeting. And he has basically 121 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: said the reason we can't withdraw from Donetsk is that 122 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: Danette is going to be a springboard for a future 123 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: Russian attack. I should say this is not just hypothetical, right, 124 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, this literally happened. The Russians took Crimea in 125 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, and Crimea became a springboard in twenty twenty 126 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: two for the most successful Russian attack of the entire war, 127 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: which took really large parts of southern Ukraine. 128 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's also said that it's a personal victory for Putin, 129 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: and I saw that it came out that the meeting 130 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: is Putin's idea. It all looks like good press for 131 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin at this stage. 132 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, so this is the thing. Right, we're back 133 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. It's completely you're completely right there. 134 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty two, the kreminin effectively became kind 135 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: of stracized by the world, right, you know, ban from 136 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: sporting events, cultural events, banking systems, cut off, huge sanctions 137 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: imposed on the works, and effectively what being in America 138 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: and shaking hands of the US president and like as 139 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,679 Speaker 1: like a partnership of equals looks like is it looks 140 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: like it's now you're welcoming them back into the fold. 141 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: You're like, okay, you're a respected partner with whom we 142 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: can do business again. And that is in and of 143 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: itself a major concessions concession and the negotiations already. It 144 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: also looks bad because, as I said, Donald Trump and 145 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: his advisors don't seem to have a particularly good grasp 146 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: of the battlefield dynamics or the even the geography or 147 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: the culture of the various regions they're talking about. So 148 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: it really does look like we're back in nineteen forty five, 149 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: and it's Churchill and Stull and kind of drawing lines 150 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: over countries and giving, you know, noting down the percentages 151 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: of dividing up the world into spheres of influence. 152 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: Again, what is the reality of a meeting between Putin 153 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 2: and Zelenski at this point? 154 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: So it's it's difficult because the two leaders absolutely despise 155 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: each other. And one of the other problems is that 156 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: neither side is in a catastrophic enough military possession where 157 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: they're willing to sort of give it up, right, Like, 158 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian defense is pretty strong, the Russians have taken 159 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: enormous casualties, but the Russian economy and the Russian military 160 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: industrial complex seems to have enough kind of slack in 161 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: it to support this kind of year, this level of war. 162 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: Effort this level of operations for like another year or two, 163 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: and you know, there's there's been a lot in Ukraine 164 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: now about a Russian penetration of Ukrainian lines around Pakrovs 165 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: and we don't quite yet know how serious that is, 166 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: whether it's just, you know, a bunch of Russian guys 167 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: got much further in the lines than they expected, or 168 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: whether the Russians have actually made a significant breakthrough. What 169 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: it does do is it does give Vladimir Putin the 170 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: idea that he's got battlefield momentum, however slow it is, 171 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: and that he can achieve his goals by military means. 172 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: What Ukrainians, I guess I'm hoping for from this summit 173 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump can convince him that it's going 174 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: to be more painful to achieve his goals through military 175 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: means than just banking whatever small wins he has now 176 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: and kind of calling it quits. But I'm not incredibly optimistic. 177 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: Is there any evidence suggesting that Putin is willing to 178 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 2: compromise or retreat even or does the Kremlin remain kind 179 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: of steadfast in its position at the moment. 180 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: So there is the little bit of leeway that the 181 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: Kremlin has given has been saying that there are the 182 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: two provinces that it's not going to require withdrawal from those. Now, 183 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: those provinces were like Hrsan and Zupparisia, like especially those cities, 184 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: they were virulently anti Russian. They never had you know 185 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: that the Kremlin had never said anything about them before 186 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: the start of the war. They were generally considered the 187 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: Kremlin's most outlandish demands and they they have been retracted. 188 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 1: So it does seem like there is a tiny bit 189 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: of wiggle room. But at the same time it does 190 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,959 Speaker 1: you know, Vladimir Putin and you know, top Russians will 191 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: constantly come out and say things about how like Ukraine 192 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: doesn't really exist and Russia should get to a Dessa 193 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: and you know, Russia's borders have no end and stuff 194 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: like that. So what I think people are still on 195 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: the tossing up is are these signs that he's genuinely 196 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 1: willing for a compromise or is he willing to come 197 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: to some sort of ceasefire conditions That would just mean 198 00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: that he will think that he can then have another 199 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: light at the apple in five or ten years time. 200 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: That's what everyone in Ukraine is really worried about not 201 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: so much specifically where the final battle lines might be 202 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: drawn in this round of fighting, but how do you 203 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: stop this kind of invasion happening again? 204 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 2: How do you stop something like this invasion happening again. 205 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: So, look, a lot of Ukrainians have sort of lost 206 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: faith in sort of Western institutions. So for instance, you know, 207 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: at the start of the full scale war, the big 208 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: thing was NATO membership. You know, Ukraine needs NATO membership, 209 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: then the cast iron guaranty of Article five. I now 210 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: talk to Ukrainians, and I've speaking of spoken to people 211 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: in the Baltic States as well, who say, look, we're 212 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: no longer convinced that NATO is all it's cracked up 213 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: to me. We're no longer convinced that the US would 214 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: necessarily honor an Article five arrangement and you know, come 215 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: full throated to our defense if we were invaded or 216 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: we had a Russian incursion or something like that. So 217 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: so you know that, I mean, the idea of European 218 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: peacekeepers had its flaws and its difficulties, but it was 219 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: at least one way for European countries to have genuine 220 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: skin in the game in protecting Ukraine. The only other way, 221 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: as the Ukrainians have found, is unfortunately, the model where 222 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 1: you just have an extremely strong standing army like they 223 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: have in South Korea, like they have in Israel for 224 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: all its issues, like they have in a number of 225 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: countries where they expect that war could break out, that 226 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: you just have to have an extra you know, everyone 227 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: has military service. The country's just full of weapons, and 228 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: there's minefields all over the borders, and it's not a 229 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: particularly pleasant way to live, but it might be the 230 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: only way to survive in this kind of new world order. 231 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 4: Zelenski himself has insisted that all conversations about Ukraine must 232 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 4: be with Ukraine present. Europe has backed him up on that. 233 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 4: A quick reminder, though, a moment like today, a virtual 234 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 4: conference with Trump and European leaders and President Zelenski setting 235 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 4: out positions, does echo what we saw back in May 236 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 4: when a ceasefire was demanded by Europe and Ukraine and 237 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 4: Trump was on the phone to his European allies saying 238 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 4: he'd impose sanctions with them if Putin didn't go along 239 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 4: with that suggestion. 240 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: And Tom, you're in Ukraine now, whereabouts in the country 241 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: are you? 242 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: I've been living in Kiev for the last three years now. 243 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: So look in Kiev, like everyone is pretty used to 244 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: like things that Things that can appear sort of very 245 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: shocking on the mirror or on TV are often not 246 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: necessarily that shocking to the eyes of Ukrainians who've lived 247 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: through countless air raids, who've seen the battlefield situation go 248 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: up and down for years and years and years. Now 249 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: there's everyone is no one is sort of inclined to surrender, 250 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: but everyone is more exhausted and more annoyed and more 251 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: more sort of despondent than they were before, even if 252 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: there is still no real appetite to sort of surrender 253 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: large parts of the country to Russia. 254 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: And in your book Dogs or the Dogs of Mariopol, 255 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: there are some pretty incredible stories of just everyday Ukrainians 256 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: stopping their studies, putting away their things and just checking 257 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: on some some army gear. I mean is that it 258 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 2: just speaks to the I guess the resilience of Ukrainians 259 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: at this point. 260 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: Is that what you found, Yes, so that the whole 261 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: the whole point in that was about. You know, it's 262 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: the forging of Ukraine's iron generation, and this is one 263 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: of the things that I said. That's that like so 264 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: many of the people that I met in Ukraine, you know, 265 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: were had you know, they had really good careers, really 266 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: good educations. You know, they were you know, intensely well 267 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: educated and patriotic, and they were the ones who sort 268 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: of down tools, put on body armor and went to 269 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: the front lines. That is an extremely inspiring story, but 270 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: it's also a very tragic story because in large parts 271 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: a lot of Ukraine's most promising and successful, especially young people, 272 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: were the ones who ended up being killed. So there 273 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: is that kind of sort of dual element of this 274 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: kind of great heroism that this kind of like really 275 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: horrible sacrifice at the same time, and when the war 276 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: does eventually inevitably come to an end, it's going to 277 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: be a really difficult thing in society, you know, how 278 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: you deal with the memory and the legacy of. 279 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: What's happened, and once the war ends, hopefully what that 280 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: will do to future generations, in the future of the 281 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 2: country as a whole. 282 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's well, I think one of the things that 283 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: it's already quite evident tension society now, but it's the 284 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: tension between the truths have been on the front line 285 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: for you know, three years, you know, after ten years 286 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: if they fought in the First War sometimes and the 287 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: men who maybe stayed in the home cities and like 288 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, hit for mobilization squads and like didn't join 289 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: up in the war. There's the tensions between, you know, 290 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: because we're women were the only people who women and 291 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: children were the only ones who could leave. The women 292 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: who stayed in their home cities, and the women who 293 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: left and went to Europe or the UK or Canada 294 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: or wherever. That tension between you know, did you really 295 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: go through the war? I remember once driving past a 296 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: recruitment sign in Harkiv Oblast. It said, you know, daddy, 297 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: what did you do during the war, And it's like 298 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: a man like twenty years in the future, like holding 299 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: his infant son. I thought that was like a really 300 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: kind of interesting and probably quite effective psychological marketing campaign. 301 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: But it really does speak to because there's going to 302 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: be so many soldiers who come back from the front 303 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: line at the end and they look around at people 304 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: who whether they left and then came back or just 305 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: stayed in their cities the whole time. They're going to 306 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,239 Speaker 1: be like, we fought and watched our friends died and 307 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: sometimes got maimed and utilated, and we're all psychologically traumatized 308 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: from sort of four or five However many years it 309 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: is a full scale war. What do you guys, you know, 310 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: where was your sacrifice and all this? 311 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 2: What could New Zealand do better? 312 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I've got to be honest. One of the 313 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: things that I have consistently been annoyed about from the 314 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: start is that New Zealand has almost I think the 315 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: Defense Minister has been once but no New Zealand. Why 316 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: are they know, never any New Zealand officials that are 317 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: visiting Ukraine. All Australian prime ministers have done it all 318 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: the UK you know prime ministers have done it. Joe 319 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: Biden did it when he was US president, you know, 320 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: Earthula Vondle and you know did it as president of 321 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: the European Commissioned several times. And especially is I remember 322 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: I talked to a University of Target expert about this, 323 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: whose name unfortunately skates me, but it's he was like 324 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: New Zealand's you know, strength is in its soft power 325 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: and its diplomacy. We're never going to to be a 326 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: military superpower, but our we sort of project our values 327 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: in our soft power, And I'm like, why is New 328 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: Zealand in no way trying to get trying to have 329 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: some kind of voice in the negotiations for instance, It 330 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: just seems that their issue was almost sort of entirely 331 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: disappeared from New Zealand political discourse to the extent that 332 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: it ever was there. So I think even just some 333 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: kind of rhetoric from politicians. You know, why when Christopher 334 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: Luxon is on a European tour, why does he not 335 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: just come to Ukraine? I know the Ukrainians, for instance, 336 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: have been trying to get a New Zealand Prime minister 337 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: for ages and they've had no luck. Just Sender and 338 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: Chris Hipkins, which we were they were told note which 339 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: is not interested and you know why not? I just 340 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: don't understand it, Like every other world later has done it. 341 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: Why why are the key we sort of not picking 342 00:19:59,119 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: up a slack here? 343 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Tom. 344 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: No worries please. 345 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: As always, that's it for this episode of the Front Page. 346 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: You can read more about today's stories and extensive news 347 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: coverage at enzidhrald dot co dot MZ. The Front Page 348 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 2: is produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is 349 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the front 350 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and 351 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: tune in on Monday for another look behind the headlines.